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[Column] General: Human Nature

13

Comments

  • jbombardjbombard SapporoPosts: 530Member Uncommon

    Games provide us with fantastic settings that allow us to do things that we cannot or would not do in real life.(Grand Theft Auto for example).  This must be the starting point for everything because everything we are talking about happens in this environment.

    Also, let's face it, you can in an online game at anytime you can wipe the slate clean.  Add to that anonymity.  

     

     

    Some people approach online relationships like real world friendships, some approach them like business relationships(win-win), and some are role playing fantasy relationships.(and not only fantasy as in dragons, but fantasy as in not who they are in real life)  For many people these relationships are temporary bonds of convenience, and for others strong bonds of friendship.

     

     

    There are many things that a person may do in a fantasy setting with no repurcussions that they wouldn't do in real life, and to see those actions in any way as a reflection of their true nature is a bit of a stretch IMHO.

     

     

    Chances are most of the people in your guild aren't real life friends, so their is probably no deep real life bond.  Online relationships are by their very nature more disposable/temporary.  I think a lot of the problems arise when you have a guild that contains people that see the guild as a work relationship(win-win professional) and people that see it as a private/personal relationship.  For example a GM makes a decision that rewards another player that results in better guild progression(win-win), but at the expense of a buddy.(or the opposite) The buddy gets pissed and vindictive.  

     

     

    Being a GM is much like managing a company.  Believe it or not successfull companies or not only about making money.  You create a work environment that strengthens morale, motivates employees, and rewards productivity.  It is in that environment that your empoyees drive you to succeed.  If an employee gets vindictive because of a bad business decision and leaves your company bringing a bunch of employees with him, chances are the company failed at creating that environment.(and it is very hard to create that environment if you are mixing personal relationships with professional)  As a GM you have to do exactly the same thing, and when you mismanage a guild you can see similar results. 

     

     

    From reading the story it sounds like this is the case.  If the guild is a 100% professional win-win relationship, then their shouldn't be much to be said about personal feelings, the relationship is maintained as long as both parties provide each other with benefit.  If it is a guild based solely on personal relationships and no expectations, why did they leave?  It sounds like the guild is a mixture of people looking for different things and that is always going to be tricky when private relationships get in the way of professional or vice versa.

     

     

    If everybody is happy in a win-win relationship, people don't usually leave.  Problems occur when not everybody is happy.  Why weren't they happy?  This is the root of the issue.  If you haven't talked to them and sorted this out then that is another problem.

     

     

    Also, of course they went behind your back.  They weren't happy with the relationship they had with the guild, but wanted to maintain the relationships they had with other players.  Other than the occasional rage quit, this seems a fairly common occurance, and it seems fairly reasonable that people would want to leave with other like minded people.  However, figuring out who those like minded people are can be problematic if you get gkicked when you try to discuss the issue with the GM like an adult... but the problem itself is the GM isn't prone to discussing things like an adult.(which also seems fairly common).

     

    Really though if you don't want things like this to happen, figure out why people aren't happy with your guild and fix it.

  • troublmakertroublmaker St. George''s, NFPosts: 337Member

    No offense but a lot of these problems seem to be "woman's human nature" problems and not human nature problems period.

    When men work together they work together.  Thousands of years of genetics have made men into tight cohesive units who are able to compete and beat each other in a respectful manner.  They are able to work in a workplace with minimal cattiness.

    A lot of the cattiness you describe is something most people find with women working together. My girlfriend spent 4 years at a vet school that was 98% female and 2% male.

    When at one of their balls I spoke with the dean and he told me that back when the school was mostly male the problems he had to deal with involved drinking, vandalism, and general tomfoolery.  Once the school started making a shift over to being heavily female he noted that the problems often involved gossip, Facebook pictures/statuses, and theft.

    The difference?

    The male associated problems were problems that men did together.

    The female associated problems were individual things women do to each other.

    I've never in my life ever had a coworker try and "steal" my girlfriend.  In fact if you talk to men that's generally considered taboo and often frowned upon even among friends.

    You can't just up and blame guild troubles on "human nature."  I MISMANAGED THE GUILD AND NOW PEOPLE ARE LEAVING TO MAKE THEIR OWN, HUMAN NATURE!!

    No it just doesn't work that way.  If a person doesn't see a need to devulge complaints to you about the guild it probably means you're actually not that open to receive complaints.

    Alternatively maybe these people just have different priorities.

    Back when I was playing WoW I was in one of these top 100 guilds in the world getting a lot of top 10 boss kills.  The guild at the end of Burning Crusade split up into three different guilds.

    The main guild still raided, but fell in rankings.

    The second guild raided as well and rose in rankings.

    The third guild focused entirely on PvP and arenas and thrived with it.

    All three of these guilds could have easily been one guild and done well, but mismanagement from the original guild made this three way split.

    The original guild master for example was only taking applications for raiding.  This meant that upon trying to get a 5v5 together they would have to organize entirely by tells... that's inconvenient.  It'd just be far more convenient for this person to be in the guild... but they weren't.

    The second guild split off to raid because the guildmaster had quite a temper in raids and was strongheaded about everything.

    I manage a team of roughly 50 people doing snow removal across a large section of my city. When one of them is thinking about getting a new job I'm aware well in advance.  On top of that if the person is a hard worker they get a reference and we leave on good terms.

    I think MMO video game culture has done one thing, done a good job of confusing what "leadership" means.

    Website: http://www.thegameguru.me / YouTube:

  • AtmaDarkwolfAtmaDarkwolf Edmonton, ABPosts: 353Member

    Solution to all problems(if only):

     

    Everyone just speaks thier mind... and always speaks thier mind, even if ugly and hurtful at the time, get the pus out of the wound early and let the healing begin.

     

    Stupid behind-the-back drama BS happens just as pokket said, both irl and ingame. I avoid much of it just by always being open with how I feel about any given situation, as harmful to me at the time it may be, its always better than scheaming like some bored housewife.

  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,912Member Uncommon

    Just look at the world "Assertiveness".  I think there's a hidden message. *grin*

     


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
  • StonesDKStonesDK SomewherePosts: 1,805Member
    So this is a 'Buhu my guildmembers betrayed me' article. How professional
  • Mors.MagneMors.Magne LondonPosts: 1,420Member
    Originally posted by troublmaker

    No offense but a lot of these problems seem to be "woman's human nature" problems and not human nature problems period.

    When men work together they work together.  Thousands of years of genetics have made men into tight cohesive units who are able to compete and beat each other in a respectful manner.  They are able to work in a workplace with minimal cattiness.

    A lot of the cattiness you describe is something most people find with women working together. My girlfriend spent 4 years at a vet school that was 98% female and 2% male.

    When at one of their balls I spoke with the dean and he told me that back when the school was mostly male the problems he had to deal with involved drinking, vandalism, and general tomfoolery.  Once the school started making a shift over to being heavily female he noted that the problems often involved gossip, Facebook pictures/statuses, and theft.

    The difference?

    The male associated problems were problems that men did together.

    The female associated problems were individual things women do to each other.

    I've never in my life ever had a coworker try and "steal" my girlfriend.  In fact if you talk to men that's generally considered taboo and often frowned upon even among friends.

    You can't just up and blame guild troubles on "human nature."  I MISMANAGED THE GUILD AND NOW PEOPLE ARE LEAVING TO MAKE THEIR OWN, HUMAN NATURE!!

    No it just doesn't work that way.  If a person doesn't see a need to devulge complaints to you about the guild it probably means you're actually not that open to receive complaints.

    Alternatively maybe these people just have different priorities.

    Back when I was playing WoW I was in one of these top 100 guilds in the world getting a lot of top 10 boss kills.  The guild at the end of Burning Crusade split up into three different guilds.

    The main guild still raided, but fell in rankings.

    The second guild raided as well and rose in rankings.

    The third guild focused entirely on PvP and arenas and thrived with it.

    All three of these guilds could have easily been one guild and done well, but mismanagement from the original guild made this three way split.

    The original guild master for example was only taking applications for raiding.  This meant that upon trying to get a 5v5 together they would have to organize entirely by tells... that's inconvenient.  It'd just be far more convenient for this person to be in the guild... but they weren't.

    The second guild split off to raid because the guildmaster had quite a temper in raids and was strongheaded about everything.

    I manage a team of roughly 50 people doing snow removal across a large section of my city. When one of them is thinking about getting a new job I'm aware well in advance.  On top of that if the person is a hard worker they get a reference and we leave on good terms.

    I think MMO video game culture has done one thing, done a good job of confusing what "leadership" means.

    I completely agree with you about men being relatively less treacherous than women in the workplace.

    For your interest, the Japanese are even more loyal to their company team than us.

    However, I don't think you can apply the same rules to MMO guilds - there is difference between being paid to be on a team and being on a team because you volunteer because it's suppost to be fun.

    The motivations and subsequent behaviours will be different.

  • soulwyndsoulwynd Petropolis, Rio de JaneiroPosts: 47Member
    I don't say anything online that I wouldn't say to people's faces.
  • TerranahTerranah Stockton, CAPosts: 3,605Member

    I agree with the OP on this one.  And for the record, I am the same person here or in game as I am in real life.  To me at least I never understood how the internet was supposed to be this enabler of bad behavior.  Yes, I understand to a certain extent we are anonymous behind our forum names...but how anonymous are we really? 

     

    If I was required to post with my real name and a pic, I'd be fine with it. 

     

    Of course, when I used to RP in SWG, I couldn't exactly be all of me.  In that instance, I imbued each of my characters with aspects of my personality, exagerating this or that trait, but the core of my beliefs, honesty, integrity, kindness, a sense of humor, those never change. 

     

    Like the OP, I've seen some guild drama.  That's why I am not really that gung ho to join a guild.  I have seen some crazy things go down.  I don't necessarily think there are evil, mean or unethical people in game so much as just in life, because I see a wide swath of humanity in my line of work.  There are good people in the world but there's also quite a few that are 'questionable', and given only that slight illusion of anonymity they will be themselves and bring drama and behave poorly.

     

    Anyway nice topic.

  • Crazy_StickCrazy_Stick Privacy Preferred, NCPosts: 1,059Member

    “I always find it funny when people say that others behave differently on the internet because I never fully agree with that sentiment. I think that people on the internet just have less of a need for self-control and the internet brings the worst out in quite a few people. I don't really consider that acting different. I think these people are being who they really are, or at least who they want to be. Showing their true colors. The internet is their escape from the societal pressure to be sane, civil, normal, whatever word you want to put on it.”

     

    Pokket 1/7/13

     

    “So... I guess EVE Online really is the perfect game for psychopaths and serial killers.”

     

    Crazy Stick 1/10/13

  • BigHatLoganBigHatLogan Bellingham, WAPosts: 688Member

    I disagree with Pokket 100% here and it sounds to me that she takes gaming way too seriously.  Why do I disagree?  Well, I believe that most people that play MMORPG's do so as a form of escapism.  Escapism is getting away from anything remotely having to do with real life and pretending to live/play/watch a fantasy world.  Some of us fantasize about conquering empires, some fantasize about being heroes, and some fantasize about fishing.  We all want to do things that we can't do in real life.  Take PKs for instance.  They are not a bunch of sociopaths in real life.  They just enjoy the thrill and challenge of hunting the most dangerous game.  I've been in plenty of PK guilds over the years and these people aren't any different than any other guild, except honestly less whiney about things.   

    Others want to see if they can achieve great power.  These players often do form coalitions and backstab their way to the top.  It's a lot of fun to be the man in the shadows manipulating things.  I've been there and have some friends who were quite successful at it.  They are perfectly trustworthy human beings in real life.  One evil mastermind has been my friend for 15 years and has never wronged me. 

    I would think a Vlogger would have a thicker skin, but Pokket your article is way off base and pretty insulting.  Thicken up your skin and try to find some actual evidence besides some silly anecdote.  No one likes the person who always tries to win every argument with a personal anecdote.  (that person loses every argument and usually doesn't even know it.)

    TL/DR  this article is a bunch of BS.

    Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now!
    image
    I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!

  • PermadudePermadude londonPosts: 16Member
    Originally posted by BigHatLogan

    I disagree with Pokket 100% here and it sounds to me that she takes gaming way too seriously.  Why do I disagree?  Well, I believe that most people that play MMORPG's do so as a form of escapism.  Escapism is getting away from anything remotely having to do with real life and pretending to live/play/watch a fantasy world.  Some of us fantasize about conquering empires, some fantasize about being heroes, and some fantasize about fishing.  We all want to do things that we can't do in real life.  Take PKs for instance.  They are not a bunch of sociopaths in real life.  They just enjoy the thrill and challenge of hunting the most dangerous game.  I've been in plenty of PK guilds over the years and these people aren't any different than any other guild, except honestly less whiney about things.   

    Others want to see if they can achieve great power.  These players often do form coalitions and backstab their way to the top.  It's a lot of fun to be the man in the shadows manipulating things.  I've been there and have some friends who were quite successful at it.  They are perfectly trustworthy human beings in real life.  One evil mastermind has been my friend for 15 years and has never wronged me. 

    I would think a Vlogger would have a thicker skin, but Pokket your article is way off base and pretty insulting.  Thicken up your skin and try to find some actual evidence besides some silly anecdote.  No one likes the person who always tries to win every argument with a personal anecdote.  (that person loses every argument and usually doesn't even know it.)

    TL/DR  this article is a bunch of BS.

    It's also a slightly strange decision for someone to use their position at mmorpg.com to attack individuals within a game they play, regardless of the circumstances.  

  • asmkm22asmkm22 Anchorage, AKPosts: 1,788Member
    In my experience, people leave guilds because the leadership sucks, nothing more.

    You make me like charity

  • bamdorfbamdorf Chatham, NJPosts: 150Member

    1.  The internet encourages bad behavoir---

    I am not so sure about this.   The worst guild drama that I was involved in was between people who knew about each other in real life.   It didn't stop the drama, it actually made it worse.

    2.  People complaining that Pokket should not use her post to attack specific people.   Huh?   I read the post and that did not seem to be the thrust of it at all.   OK, if I dug into it maybe I could figure out who the people were.   But that would be missing the point, and would be bad behavior...on my part.

    3.  The idea that somehow women are responsible for the problems while men don't do that sort of thing is so ridiculous I can't think of any useful way to respond to it.

    4.  I think the philosophy that works for me is that one good friend is worth going through 100 bad ones to find.   Because the 100 don't matter.  The feeling I have, even at my age, is  the difficulty in trying to figure out how it even occurred to people in to behave that way under any circumstances.  O.K., sounds like I am kind of stupid, but then I like myself that way, I guess. 

     

    P.S.  Enjoy your columns as always, Pokket.

     

    ---------------------------
    Rose-lipped maidens,
    Light-foot lads...

  • kjempffkjempff AarhusPosts: 883Member Uncommon

    Humans are by nature selfish and only because it has more benefit to be social do we conform to rules, laws, conscience. There is nothing more selfish that babies and any baby would without regret kill its sibling. But as it is evident that living in a group (society) is a much better survivial strategy than alone, humans control their primal instincts with rules.

    On the internet, you are not as bound by these rules as in real life, and to some that is a major release of virtual freedom that can be hard to administer. We all like to freak out in various ways and periods of time because it's primal, some get drunk, some get h.. other stuff, some become dicks in games.. its a freedom rush, and we all got the urge and if you beleive you pure ......haha.

  • ZairuZairu Portland, ORPosts: 469Member

    i think it varies.

    for instance. MMORPG is the only site I actually post on. there used to be a music site I used to visit often but it died, but i have played many online games.

    I tend to just troll on this site the majority of my posts. it is why I come here (other than the little news I actually get). my last two bans each lasted about 6 months. so last year there was only a few days when I was not banned. but in any games I play, I'm very polite and helpful, and just there to have a good time. I only post here because the tone reminds me of what I hate about online communities and I'm joining in on the banter because I woud rather vent it here than pollute the games I play with it, even if most times its more of an amusment than venting.

  • McGamerMcGamer Fairfield Bay, ARPosts: 1,012Member

    [mod edit]

    Bottom line is people hide behind the anonymity of the Internet to fulfill their sometimes sick desires. There is no rocket science to it. The problem is devs with no spine to moderate like responsible human beings should since the average gamer won't control themselves on their own.

  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,641Member Uncommon

    Good lord... why is every other blog piece some kind of lame cod physcho analysis of the posting/ gaming community here these days?

     

    Look, we know a lot of people are asshats, and we know *why* they are asshats... It's obvious. Can we now get back to the games?

     

  • auscultaausculta Springfield, MOPosts: 8Member

    Online and in-game, I always hated being a guild master or a guild officer. The drama and backstabbing one seemed to always have to deal with was beyond tedious. IRL, never really had to deal with the same level of BS behavior from people close to me... Unless I'm dating some one who is cynically insane, which seems to happen far more often than it should.

    image

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    That sort guild behaviour is what led to me dropping progression pve and "raid or die" games in general.

    Much better atmosphere in pvp guilds.
  • SlampigSlampig Chantilly, VAPosts: 2,376Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SBFord

    Whenever there's an ugly disagreement on the 'Net these days, people say it's because it's anonymous and it's the Internet. But is that the case or is it simply one's true colors shining through? Check out our latest thoughts about this issue and then leave yours in the comments.

    The other day I was talking with a friend who is in a management position at his company. He's helped several of his friends get jobs and he's also established friends at the company in which he works. This probably sounds familiar to a lot of you. Well, despite being his friend, he's been backstabbed quite a few times by some of them. Some of them got others to bandwagon against him and the only thing that kept him afloat was the fact that there were still a few that wouldn't turn... plus he was good at his job.

    Read more of Hillary Nicole's Pokket Says: Human Nature.

    image

    It is because of both of those reasons. Because the internet is anonymous a person is able to allow their true colors to shine.

    That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!

  • NC-JohnNC-John burlington, WIPosts: 113Member

    I have been around gaming for a long time, been a life long hobby. the primary thing i have learned is you can never convice yourself people in an online game are friends. some people like to say they have many friends online, but in truth, unless these people are in the same room as you or go to school with you, you have no friends online.

    If you play a game to socailize then you need more real friends. I love gaming but I would trade three hours of closed beta for SWG2 for a great dinner with some of my close friends, some good laughs and a great live band rocking the house.  so when humans who flock to the internet to play pretend murder in some MMO do bad things to you in that game, be glad they don't know where you live.

    "Not even a cray super computer can make this game run well. Thats what happens when you code an MMO in pascal. " - miglor

  • DolnorDolnor Escondido, CAPosts: 26Member

    Pokket, this has been going on since the early days of online gaming.  I was in a large guild in DAOC (500+ members) which routinely fractured this exact way.

    And in the first real online multiplayer game I played, The Realm Online, people created alts in-game and on forums just to create havoc between guilds/groups...to get the to war against each other...while they sat back and laughed.  This was 1995!

    Yes, it sucks that people do this type of shenanigans but it is gonna happen in any social system (RL and online) where people don't have to "pay for creating problems".

     

    TQQdles™,

    Dolnor Numbwit

  • Tingtong1Tingtong1 Neverneverland, WIPosts: 21Member

    Typical female GM focusing on the drama rather than why her guild is a AOL chat group.

    Look at yourself before you cry on other peoples shoulders to feel "bad" for you.

    I have yet to meet a female in a leadership position who couldn't set personal feelings aside from managing people.

    Harsh? Yes, but you set the tone for your guild. Those people left for a reason. Pretty face only goes so far.

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    Originally posted by Tingtong1

    Typical female GM focusing on the drama rather than why her guild is a AOL chat group.

    Look at yourself before you cry on other peoples shoulders to feel "bad" for you.

    I have yet to meet a female in a leadership position who couldn't set personal feelings aside from managing people.

    Harsh? Yes, but you set the tone for your guild. Those people left for a reason. Pretty face only goes so far.

    Nice sexist attitude you have there and WRONG. I have been in quite a few guilds with female GM's AND NONE OF THEM were like you suggest. Now go be sexist someplace else.

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • HystaricHystaric Rancho Cucamonga, CAPosts: 1Member

    Integrity -- What you do when no one is watching.
    -- Anon

    Character -- What you do when everyone is watching

    --Forbes

    It seems this sorta social deviance is more fluent online due to people feeling more comfortable behind a computer screen. One only has to hit the power button to avoid any repercussions, or /gquit in this instance. All goes back to Integrity and character (not the one you play online), or lack of one. Integrity and Character is a choice.

    Every Tried. Ever Failed. No Matter. Try Again. Fail Again. Fail Better. -Samuel Beckett (1906-1989)

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