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Trion Worlds hit by lay-offs

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Comments

  • HeretiqueHeretique Posts: 1,101Member Uncommon
    Nature of the business.

    Originally posted by salsa41
    are you have problem ?

  • strangiato2112strangiato2112 Richmond, VAPosts: 1,538Member Common
    Originally posted by Zorgo
    Originally posted by strangiato2112
    Originally posted by Zorgo

    How many game developers do you personally know? I know 3. They have all been contract workers. My nephew is currently getting his associate degree in game development. He is taking a class on how to make a career out of contract work.  I also have been in developer discussion groups at conventions, and they confirmed this.

     

    Did you even read the information posted?  Clearly not contract workers.

     

    And as I said, contract workers dont make news when their contract is up (aka they arent laid off- Their contract runs out and they go on their way).  I never said that companies don't use them, but no one makes any news of it when they go, because it isnt newsworthy.

    I read the article. It never clearly says the workers were not on contract. You can get hired on day 1 with a contract. That contract  can be extended indefinately, as long as they have work for you. One of my friends got a 3 month contract that was extended every 3 months for 2 years. Another got a one year contract and worked for nearly 5 years through extensions.

    They do publicize contract layoffs. 

    http://www.zam.com/story.html?story=25905

    This is when one of my friends I mentioned was layed off from DCUO. So this and all the other related articles discussing these SOE layoffs, were effecting lots and lots of people who were on contract. And it was publicized.

     

     

    No mention of contract workers at all in that article.  While your friends contract may have been finished, those layoffs were more than just fulfilled contracts otherwise it wouldnt have been news.  Those layoffs were due to failure of DCUO (and SoE having a bad run of things in general), not what people are trying to sell as post release fulfilled contracts.  This was 5 months after release.  5 months after release for a normal SoE game is already halfway to the next expansion.   

    Again, 75% of people out of that sample of 20 from Rift layoffs had been with the company for over a year.  Haf were with the company LONG before Rift's launch.  If you want to say 'well maybe they were contract workers that were extended', it doesnt change the fact that these clearly werent people hired to work specifically on storm legion like the ostriches are claiming.  They were there before Storm legion begun devleopment.

    [mod edit]

  • strangiato2112strangiato2112 Richmond, VAPosts: 1,538Member Common
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

     

    Here is some pure conjecture, but my guess is that they are getting ready to try and IPO or sale to a larger entity as a subsidiary.  I think they will reduce output for Rift, let EoN linger a little, and focus on Defiance.  I think the game will go sub-free in some form sometime in the next fiscal year.

     

    I have a feeling Rift will try the cosmetic cash shop first before doing a f2p model.

    I would hope they dont need Defiance to be a hit though.  Not saying anything on the quality of the game, but nobody knows if there is a market for the type of game it is.  Its a risky gamble.

  • ZorgoZorgo Deepintheheartof, TXPosts: 2,226Member
    Originally posted by strangiato2112
    Originally posted by Zorgo
    Originally posted by strangiato2112
    Originally posted by Zorgo

    How many game developers do you personally know? I know 3. They have all been contract workers. My nephew is currently getting his associate degree in game development. He is taking a class on how to make a career out of contract work.  I also have been in developer discussion groups at conventions, and they confirmed this.

     

    Did you even read the information posted?  Clearly not contract workers.

     

    And as I said, contract workers dont make news when their contract is up (aka they arent laid off- Their contract runs out and they go on their way).  I never said that companies don't use them, but no one makes any news of it when they go, because it isnt newsworthy.

    I read the article. It never clearly says the workers were not on contract. You can get hired on day 1 with a contract. That contract  can be extended indefinately, as long as they have work for you. One of my friends got a 3 month contract that was extended every 3 months for 2 years. Another got a one year contract and worked for nearly 5 years through extensions.

    They do publicize contract layoffs. 

    http://www.zam.com/story.html?story=25905

    This is when one of my friends I mentioned was layed off from DCUO. So this and all the other related articles discussing these SOE layoffs, were effecting lots and lots of people who were on contract. And it was publicized.

     

     

    No mention of contract workers at all in that article.  While your friends contract may have been finished, those layoffs were more than just fulfilled contracts otherwise it wouldnt have been news.  Those layoffs were due to failure of DCUO (and SoE having a bad run of things in general), not what people are trying to sell as post release fulfilled contracts.  This was 5 months after release.  5 months after release for a normal SoE game is already halfway to the next expansion.   

    Again, 75% of people out of that sample of 20 from Rift layoffs had been with the company for over a year.  Haf were with the company LONG before Rift's launch.  If you want to say 'well maybe they were contract workers that were extended', it doesnt change the fact that these clearly werent people hired to work specifically on storm legion like the ostriches are claiming.  They were there before Storm legion begun devleopment.

    Anyone who thinks this was 'post release contract workers' or 'business as usual' is ignorant of reality, and probably by choice.  Denial.  Sticking your hand in the sand like an ostrich and pretending the bad things arent there.

    Where to begin....

    Not business as usual?

    http://gamepolitics.com/category/topics/layoffs#.UO9YgG9E4Xw

    Sometimes a very bad thing can be quite the norm. 

    http://www.bruceongames.com/2009/11/12/you-dont-want-to-work-in-the-video-game-industry/

    "Job security is awful. Companies routinely get rid of people as the work flow fluctuates. No matter how good you are it is ridiculously easy to find yourself out of a job."

    http://www.dorkly.com/article/27379/the-dorklyst-7-reasons-you-dont-want-to-work-in-the-video-game-industry

     

    I'm not saying that Rift/storm legion is doing as well as hoped. I'm not saying that they aren't having issues. "

    How exactly did you get 'denial' from that?

    As for contract work in the video game industry:

    http://www.sloperama.com/advice/article58.htm

    http://www.igda.org/articles/jcharne_termination

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_industry

    "Product and talent layer: includes developersdesigners and artists, who may be working under individual contracts or as part of in-house development teams."

    But, you don't actually seem to want to 'discuss' anything. 

     

     

     
     
  • strangiato2112strangiato2112 Richmond, VAPosts: 1,538Member Common
    Originally posted by Zorgo
    Originally posted by strangiato2112

    Anyone who thinks this was 'post release contract workers' or 'business as usual' is ignorant of reality, and probably by choice.  Denial.  Sticking your hand in the sand like an ostrich and pretending the bad things arent there.

    Where to begin....

    Not business as usual?

    http://gamepolitics.com/category/topics/layoffs#.UO9YgG9E4Xw

    Layoffs happen in the video game industry.  We all know that.  However there is a myth that it is commonpalce for a developer to have large scale layoffs after release of an expansion.  This link does not support that.  Its basically a bunch of companies with underperforming games/having issues reducing payroll.  Not "well, the work is done we don't need you anymore."

    Basically, people try to act like there is nothing wrong because they want to believe there is nothing wrong. hence ostriches sticking their head in the sand.

    Sometimes a very bad thing can be quite the norm. 

    http://www.bruceongames.com/2009/11/12/you-dont-want-to-work-in-the-video-game-industry/

    "Job security is awful. Companies routinely get rid of people as the work flow fluctuates. No matter how good you are it is ridiculously easy to find yourself out of a job."

    http://www.dorkly.com/article/27379/the-dorklyst-7-reasons-you-dont-want-to-work-in-the-video-game-industry

    See the previous response.  Also, MMORPG industry does work a little differently due the obvious fact that the game is never finished.  The work flow really doesnt fluctuate, in a healthy MMORPG.  Q+A is an exception to this, you dont need as much Q+A for a patch or early expansion stages as you do right before the expansion, but a company letting go of a half dozen Q+A people never makes news because it isnt news.  That is business as usual, not whats happened here.

     

    I'm not saying that Rift/storm legion is doing as well as hoped. I'm not saying that they aren't having issues. "

    How exactly did you get 'denial' from that?

    Are you not trying to prove that what Trion did is "business as usual"?  You even tried to say, when given evidence that the vast majority of people let go were long term workers, that 'oh its just contract workers".

    Large scale layoffs mean your game is having issues or your company is having issues.  In the age of crappy MMORPGs this happens frequently, but how often did you hear of EQ's devs being let go in its prime?  How about WoW devs?  Yes, WoW let go of a ton of CS staff, but not its dev team.

     

     

     

     
     

     

  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,936Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Zorgo
     

    "Job security is awful. Companies routinely get rid of people as the work flow fluctuates. No matter how good you are it is ridiculously easy to find yourself out of a job."

     

    That's typical of a dream job industry.  I spent the 80s and early 90s working broadcast TV and radio.  The market was flooded with wanna-be talent, most with bachelors or better education.  Terrible job security as the trend at the time was for stations to restructure by firing all the old staff and bringing in new people for a "new" sound.  The norm was to pack up the family, move half way across the country and hope the job lasted for more than 18 months.

     


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
  • cronius77cronius77 Fairfax, VAPosts: 1,353Member Uncommon

    zorgo you are both right and wrong as ive worked on and off doing contract work in the industry also. Yes you are right about most employees being contract workers but you have to sign a 1099 and it has a end date to renew etc. But most companies do not let go contract workers unless they are losing money or restructuring because renewing a contract tends to end up being cheaper or you already have a dependable work force with experience using the tools needed for the engine and design. Trion World is taking a hit and had to lay off workers as is most of the industry right now due to a over saturated game market and a player base that hops game to game etc.

    Rift never really did all that well in the markets in retention soon after release and they just had issues also with end of nations. Rift may have a dedicated community but its by far not a very large one and without a large playerbase Im pretty sure they cannot expect to have a large workforce with large paychecks.

  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by strangiato2112
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

     

    Here is some pure conjecture, but my guess is that they are getting ready to try and IPO or sale to a larger entity as a subsidiary.  I think they will reduce output for Rift, let EoN linger a little, and focus on Defiance.  I think the game will go sub-free in some form sometime in the next fiscal year.

     

    I have a feeling Rift will try the cosmetic cash shop first before doing a f2p model.

    I would hope they dont need Defiance to be a hit though.  Not saying anything on the quality of the game, but nobody knows if there is a market for the type of game it is.  Its a risky gamble.

        My concerns as well.. My gut tells me that Defiance will not be the savior Trion is hoping for..  It's pretty much a PvP first person shooter game just like Planetside 2 and others..  Oh it might start off hot for the first few months with all the hyple and glitter of being new, but I think it will decline fast as the reality of a "subscription" becomes apparent.. 

  • AlyvianAlyvian NoesPosts: 342Member
    defiance is b2p/p2p hybrid afaik
  • ZorgoZorgo Deepintheheartof, TXPosts: 2,226Member
    Originally posted by strangiato2112
    Originally posted by Zorgo
    Originally posted by strangiato2112

    Anyone who thinks this was 'post release contract workers' or 'business as usual' is ignorant of reality, and probably by choice.  Denial.  Sticking your hand in the sand like an ostrich and pretending the bad things arent there.

    Where to begin....

    Not business as usual?

    http://gamepolitics.com/category/topics/layoffs#.UO9YgG9E4Xw

    Layoffs happen in the video game industry.  We all know that.  However there is a myth that it is commonpalce for a developer to have large scale layoffs after release of an expansion.  This link does not support that.  Its basically a bunch of companies with underperforming games/having issues reducing payroll.  Not "well, the work is done we don't need you anymore."

    Basically, people try to act like there is nothing wrong because they want to believe there is nothing wrong. hence ostriches sticking their head in the sand.

    Sometimes a very bad thing can be quite the norm. 

    http://www.bruceongames.com/2009/11/12/you-dont-want-to-work-in-the-video-game-industry/

    "Job security is awful. Companies routinely get rid of people as the work flow fluctuates. No matter how good you are it is ridiculously easy to find yourself out of a job."

    http://www.dorkly.com/article/27379/the-dorklyst-7-reasons-you-dont-want-to-work-in-the-video-game-industry

    See the previous response.  Also, MMORPG industry does work a little differently due the obvious fact that the game is never finished.  The work flow really doesnt fluctuate, in a healthy MMORPG.  Q+A is an exception to this, you dont need as much Q+A for a patch or early expansion stages as you do right before the expansion, but a company letting go of a half dozen Q+A people never makes news because it isnt news.  That is business as usual, not whats happened here.

     

    I'm not saying that Rift/storm legion is doing as well as hoped. I'm not saying that they aren't having issues. "

    How exactly did you get 'denial' from that?

    Are you not trying to prove that what Trion did is "business as usual"?  You even tried to say, when given evidence that the vast majority of people let go were long term workers, that 'oh its just contract workers".

    Large scale layoffs mean your game is having issues or your company is having issues.  In the age of crappy MMORPGs this happens frequently, but how often did you hear of EQ's devs being let go in its prime?  How about WoW devs?  Yes, WoW let go of a ton of CS staff, but not its dev team.

     

     

     

     
     

     

    Ok, I'm done. 

    I could say the sky was blue and you would say that I'm wrong because it is 'light blue'.

     

  • strangiato2112strangiato2112 Richmond, VAPosts: 1,538Member Common
    Originally posted by Zorgo

    Ok, I'm done. 

    I could say the sky was blue and you would say that I'm wrong because it is 'light blue'.

     

    What you are doing is trying to prove the sky is blue by saying the grass is green, therefore the sky is blue.  "Video game companies use a lot of contract employees therefore laying off large amounts of long term staff after an expansion release is business as usual".  We get it, video game industry uses a lot of contract workers.   They also break their contracts when things arent going well.  What does that have to do with all the 3 year+ employees that were with Trion long before Rift even launched?  Why is this normal after an expansion release?

  • OmnifishOmnifish LondonPosts: 616Member
    Originally posted by Zorgo
    Originally posted by strangiato2112
    Originally posted by Zorgo
    Originally posted by strangiato2112
    Originally posted by Zorgo

    How many game developers do you personally know? I know 3. They have all been contract workers. My nephew is currently getting his associate degree in game development. He is taking a class on how to make a career out of contract work.  I also have been in developer discussion groups at conventions, and they confirmed this.

     

    Did you even read the information posted?  Clearly not contract workers.

     

    And as I said, contract workers dont make news when their contract is up (aka they arent laid off- Their contract runs out and they go on their way).  I never said that companies don't use them, but no one makes any news of it when they go, because it isnt newsworthy.

    I read the article. It never clearly says the workers were not on contract. You can get hired on day 1 with a contract. That contract  can be extended indefinately, as long as they have work for you. One of my friends got a 3 month contract that was extended every 3 months for 2 years. Another got a one year contract and worked for nearly 5 years through extensions.

    They do publicize contract layoffs. 

    http://www.zam.com/story.html?story=25905

    This is when one of my friends I mentioned was layed off from DCUO. So this and all the other related articles discussing these SOE layoffs, were effecting lots and lots of people who were on contract. And it was publicized.

     

     

    No mention of contract workers at all in that article.  While your friends contract may have been finished, those layoffs were more than just fulfilled contracts otherwise it wouldnt have been news.  Those layoffs were due to failure of DCUO (and SoE having a bad run of things in general), not what people are trying to sell as post release fulfilled contracts.  This was 5 months after release.  5 months after release for a normal SoE game is already halfway to the next expansion.   

    Again, 75% of people out of that sample of 20 from Rift layoffs had been with the company for over a year.  Haf were with the company LONG before Rift's launch.  If you want to say 'well maybe they were contract workers that were extended', it doesnt change the fact that these clearly werent people hired to work specifically on storm legion like the ostriches are claiming.  They were there before Storm legion begun devleopment.

    Anyone who thinks this was 'post release contract workers' or 'business as usual' is ignorant of reality, and probably by choice.  Denial.  Sticking your hand in the sand like an ostrich and pretending the bad things arent there.

    Where to begin....

    Not business as usual?

    http://gamepolitics.com/category/topics/layoffs#.UO9YgG9E4Xw

    Sometimes a very bad thing can be quite the norm. 

    http://www.bruceongames.com/2009/11/12/you-dont-want-to-work-in-the-video-game-industry/

    "Job security is awful. Companies routinely get rid of people as the work flow fluctuates. No matter how good you are it is ridiculously easy to find yourself out of a job."

    http://www.dorkly.com/article/27379/the-dorklyst-7-reasons-you-dont-want-to-work-in-the-video-game-industry

     

    I'm not saying that Rift/storm legion is doing as well as hoped. I'm not saying that they aren't having issues. "

    How exactly did you get 'denial' from that?

    As for contract work in the video game industry:

    http://www.sloperama.com/advice/article58.htm

    http://www.igda.org/articles/jcharne_termination

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_industry

    "Product and talent layer: includes developersdesigners and artists, who may be working under individual contracts or as part of in-house development teams."

    But, you don't actually seem to want to 'discuss' anything. 

     

     

     
     

    Okay before you dig yourself a bigger hole go back to the first page of this thread. The linkedin accounts of some of the people who are being let go are on there, none of them are contract workers.  Some of them have been with TRION even before TRION existed.  You don't just let those people go because, 'it's the nature of the business'.

    Contract work exists within this industry as with others, I should know that's how I work, but these are significant layoffs from senoir people within the dev team, there's no other way to spin it.

    Either you've missed the first page of this thread or you really are in denial.

    This looks like a job for....The Riviera Kid!

  • FromHellFromHell NY, NYPosts: 1,311Member
    Originally posted by Dantae87
    OH NO i totally just subbed to this game and now its dying!.....wtf am i gonna play now GRRRRR

    haha good joke, as if every game dies because a company had layoffs.

     

    when will the sensationalist layoff reports end, IT'S BUSINESS AS USUAL FOR GODS SAKE, people get fired when a product is finished, end of story

    Secrets of Dragon?s Spine Trailer.. ! :D
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    Best MMOs ever played: Ultima, EvE, SW Galaxies, Age of Conan, The Secret World
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  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Manchester, NHPosts: 2,931Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Rydeson
         That doesn't paint a pretty picture for the future..  I guess that means that Storm Legion is the first and last expansion for Rift..  Does this mean that Rift will now go into maintenance mode?  I'm sure they will toss a bone out there to keep the player base happy, but it looks like any longer term major content is done, since 1/3 of the staff were told bye bye.. 

    I doubt it's the last expansion.  But it's the last expansion of that depth.  I'm sure teh regular content updates will be released less frequently or with less content per update.

  • strangiato2112strangiato2112 Richmond, VAPosts: 1,538Member Common
    Originally posted by FromHell

     

    when will the sensationalist layoff reports end, IT'S BUSINESS AS USUAL FOR GODS SAKE, people get fired when a product is finished, end of story

    Maybe when people stop with the myth that massive firings of long term staff after an expansion is not business as usual?

     

    The only other report I have seen in many threads on various forums that displays actual layoffs immediately following an expansion is Turbine last year.  So 2 expansions out of how many?  100?  2% is business as usual?

     

    Yes, its business as usual that companes not meeting expectations/needs/profits fire people (both contract and not). there are tons of those reports out there.  

     

    I know logic is hard to come by for some people, but is it not possible that both the Turbine and Rift layoffs are due to not meeting expectations/needs/profits like all the other reports? 

     

     

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