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STEAM BOX revaled

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  • asmkm22asmkm22 Anchorage, AKPosts: 1,788Member
    Originally posted by moosecatlol

    Not the steambox, a failed kick starter project that is being picked up by valve.

    Threads like these deserve to be deleted.

    The problem is that people are using the term steambox to reference a specific device, when it's really more of a category of devices, like "windows box" or "linux box."

    The thread is fine.

    You make me like charity

  • GrayGhost79GrayGhost79 Webster, MAPosts: 4,813Member
    Originally posted by asmkm22
    Originally posted by moosecatlol

    Not the steambox, a failed kick starter project that is being picked up by valve.

    Threads like these deserve to be deleted.

    The problem is that people are using the term steambox to reference a specific device, when it's really more of a category of devices, like "windows box" or "linux box."

    The thread is fine.

    This ^ 

     

  • asmkm22asmkm22 Anchorage, AKPosts: 1,788Member
    Originally posted by kadepsyson
    Originally posted by asmkm22
    Originally posted by kadepsyson

    Also, yes you can build a more powerful desktop to crush this tiny Piston.  But if you don't feel like moving your computer from your desk over to your TV, or don't feel like moving your desktop when you travel across the country, this could be an excellent choice.

    I'd love a device that's incredibly easy to transport and lets me play my steam library of games where I travel to personally.

    That's something I hadn't considered.  It would be a fairly portable way to play a lot of games on the go, provided you have a tv and internet connection.

    I'd still be concerned about the overall quality of the graphics though.

    Why would you be concerned about the graphics quality?  Surely if you are thousands of miles from your desktop PC, playing your steam library even with a moderate quality would be better than the complete inability to do so, especially when the transport of the device that allows it was incredibly easy, right?

    I for one enjoyed playing on my Xbox 360 in an airport terminal despite the small screen size.  What to do with hours of layover?  I could have sat there and cried because I wasn't able to bring my desktop and three huge monitors as a carryon, or I could have enjoyed gaming, as I did.

    I mean what would you do to change the device?  make it far less portable but have better graphics, in which case why not just lug a full computer around?

     

    For reference, me at an airport this past holiday season:

    image

    personally, I read books when I have to travel, lol.  I game enough at home, so when I'm abroad, I'm happy to do other things.  I used to have a GBA with me for lighter games, but now my phone fulfills that role.  But normally I just pull out a paperback and get cracking.  Or go to the airport bar and meet new people.  That's sometimes fun too.

    You make me like charity

  • kadepsysonkadepsyson sun prairie, WIPosts: 1,937Member
    Originally posted by asmkm22
    Originally posted by moosecatlol

    Not the steambox, a failed kick starter project that is being picked up by valve.

    Threads like these deserve to be deleted.

    The problem is that people are using the term steambox to reference a specific device, when it's really more of a category of devices, like "windows box" or "linux box."

    The thread is fine.

    Samsung Galaxy S4 announced!  IT"S THE GOD DAMN STEAM BOX!!!!  check it out, the thing can run the steam mobile app, therefor this must be the steambox.  I know, you may think of it as a smartphone, but it is actually the steambox.

     

    Actually when I think of "Steam Box" I am looking for information on Valve's hardware device that they have not yet announced.

    El Psy Congroo

  • kadepsysonkadepsyson sun prairie, WIPosts: 1,937Member
    Originally posted by asmkm22
     

    personally, I read books when I have to travel, lol.  I game enough at home, so when I'm abroad, I'm happy to do other things.  I used to have a GBA with me for lighter games, but now my phone fulfills that role.  But normally I just pull out a paperback and get cracking.  Or go to the airport bar and meet new people.  That's sometimes fun too.

    Yeah I was reading a new paperback book on the plane rides.  Can't plug in that thing in the air haha.

    El Psy Congroo

  • GrayGhost79GrayGhost79 Webster, MAPosts: 4,813Member
    Originally posted by kadepsyson
    Originally posted by asmkm22
    Originally posted by moosecatlol

    Not the steambox, a failed kick starter project that is being picked up by valve.

    Threads like these deserve to be deleted.

    The problem is that people are using the term steambox to reference a specific device, when it's really more of a category of devices, like "windows box" or "linux box."

    The thread is fine.

    Samsung Galaxy S4 announced!  IT"S THE GOD DAMN STEAM BOX!!!!  check it out, the thing can run the steam mobile app, therefor this must be the steambox.  I know, you may think of it as a smartphone, but it is actually the steambox.

     

    Actually when I think of "Steam Box" I am looking for information on Valve's hardware device that they have not yet announced.

    Thats what he said. People are looking for a Valve made Steam Box. The problem is there isn't one and there isn't one going to be announced. Valve isn't developing any hardware. They have partnered up with different hardware developers and manafacturers to do it for them. The "Steam Box" is actually referencing these devices, it's just that some don't understand that.

  • asmkm22asmkm22 Anchorage, AKPosts: 1,788Member
    Originally posted by kadepsyson
    Originally posted by asmkm22
    Originally posted by moosecatlol

    Not the steambox, a failed kick starter project that is being picked up by valve.

    Threads like these deserve to be deleted.

    The problem is that people are using the term steambox to reference a specific device, when it's really more of a category of devices, like "windows box" or "linux box."

    The thread is fine.

    Samsung Galaxy S4 announced!  IT"S THE GOD DAMN STEAM BOX!!!!  check it out, the thing can run the steam mobile app, therefor this must be the steambox.  I know, you may think of it as a smartphone, but it is actually the steambox.

     

    Actually when I think of "Steam Box" I am looking for information on Valve's hardware device that they have not yet announced.

    According to Steam (or Gabe himself maybe), it's not something they are specifically looking to develop, in the same way that Playstation and Xbox is.  They just want to establish a set of specifications for hardware manufacturers to be able to follow, presumably so that Steam can start certifying games as "steambox ready" or whatever they want to call it.

    The idea being that once that specification gets established, developers will be able to take it into account with their PC games.  I imagine it would be a specification that gets updated periodically, but that's the basic idea.

    You make me like charity

  • KuppaKuppa Boulder, COPosts: 3,292Member Uncommon

    http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2414039,00.asp

     

    I think we can call it debunked. There is really no such thing as a "steam box" like someone around here has been saying it's more of a system that would run on different hardwares. Not one piece of hardware made by Valve.

    image


    image

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Valve have shares in this company building it.

    But yeah its a platform, expect other to make them too.

    Think of this thing as how nexus is to Android phones and tablets.
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,765Member Uncommon
    Regardless of whether this or any other project is blessed by Valve or not, I think there could be a market for $400 pre-built rigs with specs chosen to be sensible for a severe budget gaming system.  (A10 APU with 1866 MHz DDR3 in properly matched channels.)  But not if it's $1100 for a severe budget gaming system, as that misses the "severe budget" part.
  • asmkm22asmkm22 Anchorage, AKPosts: 1,788Member
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Regardless of whether this or any other project is blessed by Valve or not, I think there could be a market for $400 pre-built rigs with specs chosen to be sensible for a severe budget gaming system.  (A10 APU with 1866 MHz DDR3 in properly matched channels.)  But not if it's $1100 for a severe budget gaming system, as that misses the "severe budget" part.

    Maybe, but it seems like a bad year to think about releasing something like this with Xbox and Playstations getting updating this year most likely.  I'd hate to invest in a Steambox device for the same price that I can get a next gen console that servers almost the same purpose (aside from the traveling thing someone mentioned).

    You make me like charity

  • Beatnik59Beatnik59 Chicago, ILPosts: 2,224Member Uncommon

    Bleh...integrated graphics card...

    ...and no space to put a killer graphics card in.

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  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,765Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by asmkm22
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Regardless of whether this or any other project is blessed by Valve or not, I think there could be a market for $400 pre-built rigs with specs chosen to be sensible for a severe budget gaming system.  (A10 APU with 1866 MHz DDR3 in properly matched channels.)  But not if it's $1100 for a severe budget gaming system, as that misses the "severe budget" part.

    Maybe, but it seems like a bad year to think about releasing something like this with Xbox and Playstations getting updating this year most likely.  I'd hate to invest in a Steambox device for the same price that I can get a next gen console that servers almost the same purpose (aside from the traveling thing someone mentioned).

    The next generation Xbox is about a year away.  There aren't credible rumors of the PS4 even being that close, so that's looking more like a 2014 launch.

    There are also rumors that the next generation Xbox and PlayStation will both be integrated graphics themselves.

  • GrayGhost79GrayGhost79 Webster, MAPosts: 4,813Member
    Originally posted by asmkm22
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Regardless of whether this or any other project is blessed by Valve or not, I think there could be a market for $400 pre-built rigs with specs chosen to be sensible for a severe budget gaming system.  (A10 APU with 1866 MHz DDR3 in properly matched channels.)  But not if it's $1100 for a severe budget gaming system, as that misses the "severe budget" part.

    Maybe, but it seems like a bad year to think about releasing something like this with Xbox and Playstations getting updating this year most likely.  I'd hate to invest in a Steambox device for the same price that I can get a next gen console that servers almost the same purpose (aside from the traveling thing someone mentioned).

    The problem is if Xbox and PS3 do see new systems this year, what are they going to offer? Sony just filed a patent on software that will remove the ability to play second hand games. Microsoft had similar information leak. Both have purchased streaming game companies (Well sony has, Microsoft has been looking into streaming companies. I don't know if Microsoft has actually purchased one yet, they could even be working on the service on their own). 

     

    Other leaked information and materials along side the rumor mill don't paint a pretty picture for what the next gen Xbox and PS are going to have in store for us. There are some nice additions in the information, but theres a lot of bad in there. 

     

    Now what steam has going for it. Steam is known as a cheap source for games. The recent sales followed by the announcment of steam enabled devices is going to do good things for them. Sure... you can likely get a new gen PS or Xbox for around a grand that offers similar or slightly better performance and specs and then spend 60-70+ a game or you can spend a grand on a "steam box" device that does a lot more, has free online service, has cheaper games (Some times much cheaper. Look at the recent sale bundles lol, $100 for 6-10 good games isn't bad. On the go Steam gaming, locally delivered Steam gaming, so many ways to play Steam games which are mostly the games people want to play. 

     

    Me personally, I think its the other way around in the end. Microsoft and Sony would not be wise to launch a console this year. Numerous gaming devices are launching this year on top of streaming services, hardware, and software. Without a solid lineup of games from the word go and competetive pricing it could prove to be a very bad move for either to launch. 

     

  • asmkm22asmkm22 Anchorage, AKPosts: 1,788Member
    Originally posted by GrayGhost79
    Originally posted by asmkm22
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Regardless of whether this or any other project is blessed by Valve or not, I think there could be a market for $400 pre-built rigs with specs chosen to be sensible for a severe budget gaming system.  (A10 APU with 1866 MHz DDR3 in properly matched channels.)  But not if it's $1100 for a severe budget gaming system, as that misses the "severe budget" part.

    Maybe, but it seems like a bad year to think about releasing something like this with Xbox and Playstations getting updating this year most likely.  I'd hate to invest in a Steambox device for the same price that I can get a next gen console that servers almost the same purpose (aside from the traveling thing someone mentioned).

    The problem is if Xbox and PS3 do see new systems this year, what are they going to offer? Sony just filed a patent on software that will remove the ability to play second hand games. Microsoft had similar information leak. Both have purchased streaming game companies (Well sony has, Microsoft has been looking into streaming companies. I don't know if Microsoft has actually purchased one yet, they could even be working on the service on their own). 

     

    Other leaked information and materials along side the rumor mill don't paint a pretty picture for what the next gen Xbox and PS are going to have in store for us. There are some nice additions in the information, but theres a lot of bad in there. 

     

    Now what steam has going for it. Steam is known as a cheap source for games. The recent sales followed by the announcment of steam enabled devices is going to do good things for them. Sure... you can likely get a new gen PS or Xbox for around a grand that offers similar or slightly better performance and specs and then spend 60-70+ a game or you can spend a grand on a "steam box" device that does a lot more, has free online service, has cheaper games (Some times much cheaper. Look at the recent sale bundles lol, $100 for 6-10 good games isn't bad. On the go Steam gaming, locally delivered Steam gaming, so many ways to play Steam games which are mostly the games people want to play. 

     

    Me personally, I think its the other way around in the end. Microsoft and Sony would not be wise to launch a console this year. Numerous gaming devices are launching this year on top of streaming services, hardware, and software. Without a solid lineup of games from the word go and competetive pricing it could prove to be a very bad move for either to launch. 

     

    The industry has stagnated as a result of the consoles not being replaced.  Both next gen consols are actually expected by the end of this year, with some recent reports that xbox 720 might be as early as this summer.

    As for the patent that sony applied for regarding locking down used and rented games, there isn't a lot of expectation that it is actually getting implemented, at least not in this next generation.  It's either a defensive patent, or something for the future.  Most analysts know that it would be a bad move on Sony's end to do that, because it would then just become a selling point for Microsoft to advertise on, about how the Xbox isn't restricted.  Not saying it won't happen, just that if it does, it's only going to hurt Sony to do it now.

    Lastly, steam games are certainly very affordable, and it's about the only real selling point I can see for a steambox device.  it still doesn't seem like a great sell right now for the reasons I've already mentioned.  Older titles on older hardware only attract certain types of customers; the same types that bought a Ps2 long after the Ps3 had been out for example.  Everyone else is going to be looking at their 300 to 400 dollars and comparing a steambox with a cheap library of decent games that play on lower settings, or a next gen console that will be fairly cutting edge for at least a few years.

     

    Now, it's very possible that right now, the whole steambox thing really is in the prototype phase, and Valve just needs a few smaller OEMs like Xi3 to be able rough out some basic hardware, enough for Valve to start doing some internal testing to determine what kind of specifications they want.  By the time an actual product gets released, it could very well be a few years down the road, and by then the steambox may very well be on better footing.

    You make me like charity

  • kadepsysonkadepsyson sun prairie, WIPosts: 1,937Member
    Originally posted by GrayGhost79
    Originally posted by kadepsyson
    Originally posted by asmkm22
    Originally posted by moosecatlol

    Not the steambox, a failed kick starter project that is being picked up by valve.

    Threads like these deserve to be deleted.

    The problem is that people are using the term steambox to reference a specific device, when it's really more of a category of devices, like "windows box" or "linux box."

    The thread is fine.

    Samsung Galaxy S4 announced!  IT"S THE GOD DAMN STEAM BOX!!!!  check it out, the thing can run the steam mobile app, therefor this must be the steambox.  I know, you may think of it as a smartphone, but it is actually the steambox.

     

    Actually when I think of "Steam Box" I am looking for information on Valve's hardware device that they have not yet announced.

    Thats what he said. People are looking for a Valve made Steam Box. The problem is there isn't one and there isn't one going to be announced. Valve isn't developing any hardware. They have partnered up with different hardware developers and manafacturers to do it for them. The "Steam Box" is actually referencing these devices, it's just that some don't understand that.

    Or maybe they are going to make one, and they haven't announced it officially yet as per this quick blurb from Ben Krasnow: "For example, it's true that we are working on getting Steam into the living room, and are planning for a hardware box, but we have no current plans to announce anything in 2013," Krasnow said"

     

    But yeah keep calling any device that does something related to Steam the "Steam Box" when in fact the actual device by Valve may be forthcoming, whatever you wanna do.

    It reminds me of how my mom used to call my Xbox a "Nintendo" bless her heart.

    El Psy Congroo

  • kadepsysonkadepsyson sun prairie, WIPosts: 1,937Member
    Oh and this may come as a shock to some (hurr its a software company) but Valve said in the past day or two that they have other additional HARDWARE plans in addition to a Steam Box.

    El Psy Congroo

  • CastillleCastillle KhobarPosts: 2,703Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by kadepsyson

    Also, yes you can build a more powerful desktop to crush this tiny Piston.  But if you don't feel like moving your computer from your desk over to your TV, or don't feel like moving your desktop when you travel across the country, this could be an excellent choice.

    I'd love a device that's incredibly easy to transport and lets me play my steam library of games where I travel to personally.

    Build a mini itx then?  Mine has a 7970 and an i5 3570k and I can lug it around fairly easilly.  The only problem with lugging it around is when I need to drag my monitor with me.  Oh how I constantly regret getting a big one -.-

    Edit :

    On another note, depending on how these things are priced, they may end up being incredibly silly to buy compared to just building a tiny mini itx which supports only shorter video cards.

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  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Castillle
    Originally posted by kadepsyson Also, yes you can build a more powerful desktop to crush this tiny Piston.  But if you don't feel like moving your computer from your desk over to your TV, or don't feel like moving your desktop when you travel across the country, this could be an excellent choice. I'd love a device that's incredibly easy to transport and lets me play my steam library of games where I travel to personally.
    Build a mini itx then?  Mine has a 7970 and an i5 3570k and I can lug it around fairly easilly.  The only problem with lugging it around is when I need to drag my monitor with me.  Oh how I constantly regret getting a big one -.-

    Edit :

    On another note, depending on how these things are priced, they may end up being incredibly silly to buy compared to just building a tiny mini itx which supports only shorter video cards.




    Is it possible to build a PC with integrated graphics chips, or would that just be one of those little Android PC sticks?

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • CastillleCastillle KhobarPosts: 2,703Member Uncommon

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  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,765Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by Castillle

    Originally posted by kadepsyson Also, yes you can build a more powerful desktop to crush this tiny Piston.  But if you don't feel like moving your computer from your desk over to your TV, or don't feel like moving your desktop when you travel across the country, this could be an excellent choice. I'd love a device that's incredibly easy to transport and lets me play my steam library of games where I travel to personally.
    Build a mini itx then?  Mine has a 7970 and an i5 3570k and I can lug it around fairly easilly.  The only problem with lugging it around is when I need to drag my monitor with me.  Oh how I constantly regret getting a big one -.-

     

    Edit :

    On another note, depending on how these things are priced, they may end up being incredibly silly to buy compared to just building a tiny mini itx which supports only shorter video cards.



    Is it possible to build a PC with integrated graphics chips, or would that just be one of those little Android PC sticks?

     

    Castillle basically already said this, but here:

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819113280

    If the integrated graphics in that were a discrete card, you'd expect to pay about $60 for it in order for it to be a decent value for the money.

    The only things stopping integrated graphics from outperforming $200 discrete cards are that a large processor plus a large GPU is an enormous die--which means expensive and poor yields--and they can't get nearly enough memory bandwidth to feed a higher end GPU in a processor form factor.  The first problem will greatly lessen with subsequent die shrinks (and yes, compared to $200 discrete cards of the future, too), and they're working on the second.  Apparently Intel is working on a silicon interposer to have some video memory inside of the CPU package, but that's still expensive.

  • kadepsysonkadepsyson sun prairie, WIPosts: 1,937Member
    Originally posted by Castillle
    Originally posted by kadepsyson

    Also, yes you can build a more powerful desktop to crush this tiny Piston.  But if you don't feel like moving your computer from your desk over to your TV, or don't feel like moving your desktop when you travel across the country, this could be an excellent choice.

    I'd love a device that's incredibly easy to transport and lets me play my steam library of games where I travel to personally.

    Build a mini itx then?  Mine has a 7970 and an i5 3570k and I can lug it around fairly easilly.  The only problem with lugging it around is when I need to drag my monitor with me.  Oh how I constantly regret getting a big one -.-

    Edit :

    On another note, depending on how these things are priced, they may end up being incredibly silly to buy compared to just building a tiny mini itx which supports only shorter video cards.

    Sure, you could go a bit bigger in size, and build your own.

    I think this is more marketed for people who want to grab it at the store, and just use it wherever they may be though.  No need to build or select parts or what have you, just take it with you and plug in.

    It's there to give people access to their steam games in an incredibly easy and portable yet capable platform.

    I can probably fit it inside the case that I use when I travel with my Xbox 360.  Swap between Xbox games in Airport terminals and my Steam Library.

    El Psy Congroo

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by lizardbones   Originally posted by Castillle Originally posted by kadepsyson Also, yes you can build a more powerful desktop to crush this tiny Piston.  But if you don't feel like moving your computer from your desk over to your TV, or don't feel like moving your desktop when you travel across the country, this could be an excellent choice. I'd love a device that's incredibly easy to transport and lets me play my steam library of games where I travel to personally.
    Build a mini itx then?  Mine has a 7970 and an i5 3570k and I can lug it around fairly easilly.  The only problem with lugging it around is when I need to drag my monitor with me.  Oh how I constantly regret getting a big one -.-   Edit : On another note, depending on how these things are priced, they may end up being incredibly silly to buy compared to just building a tiny mini itx which supports only shorter video cards.
    Is it possible to build a PC with integrated graphics chips, or would that just be one of those little Android PC sticks?  
    Castillle basically already said this, but here:

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819113280

    If the integrated graphics in that were a discrete card, you'd expect to pay about $60 for it in order for it to be a decent value for the money.

    The only things stopping integrated graphics from outperforming $200 discrete cards are that a large processor plus a large GPU is an enormous die--which means expensive and poor yields--and they can't get nearly enough memory bandwidth to feed a higher end GPU in a processor form factor.  The first problem will greatly lessen with subsequent die shrinks (and yes, compared to $200 discrete cards of the future, too), and they're working on the second.  Apparently Intel is working on a silicon interposer to have some video memory inside of the CPU package, but that's still expensive.




    It would be reasonable to assume that the company that Valve has doing this can build each unit for less than we could buy the packages for on New Egg. A complete package using that chip runs $428 right now. Man, if they can sell these things, they are going to make a killing on the hardware alone.

    Is it that the people making these new things that expect people will pay a lot of money for them, or is it that people see things that are relatively new and are willing to pay a lot of money for them?

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • CastillleCastillle KhobarPosts: 2,703Member Uncommon

    Except the X5A, which is worse than the X7A high end gaming one with the processor similar to the AMD A-10, costs roughly $800.

     

     

    Specs for the X5A


    General Specs:
    – eSATA 3.0, 2.5 and 1.5 support
    – USB 2.0 support
    – PMC Optical Interface
    – Internal Storage: 16GB mSATA SSD (up to 128GB)
    – SSD Quick Boot Linux

    External Connectors:
    – 2 – eSATA 2.5 Ports
    – 6 – USB 2.0 Ports (root hubs)
    – 3 – Reconfigurable Audio channels
    – (1-3, Microphone, Headphone and/or
    Line-in/Line-out)

    Internal Connectors:
    – 1 – USB 2.0 Connector
    – 1 – Fan Connector

    Secondary I/O Module

    General Specs:
    – DirectX Support: DX11
    – Open GL: v2.0
    – Video Decode: UVD 2.0 – VC-1, MPEG2, MPEG4
    – HDCP: v1.3b (up to 1080p)
    – Side-Port Memory: 128MB (DDR2-800)
    – DP/DVI: 1080p, with Digital Audio (HDMI optional)
    – Max Resolution: 2560x1600 @ 32bpp (dual output capable)
    – Dual Display Standard: DVI-DL + VGA, DVI-DL + DP, VGA + DP (HDMI converter optional)

    External Connectors:
    – 1 – Ethernet connector (10/100/1000)
    – 1 – Display port (DP/DVI, HDMI optional)
    – 1 – Display port (DVI-DL + VGA, DVI-DL + DP, VGA + DP)
    – 1 – Power connector (19volts DC @ 3.42amps)

     

    Unless they completely slash the price of those, I dont expect the X7A to cost any less than 1000-1200.

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  • kadepsysonkadepsyson sun prairie, WIPosts: 1,937Member
    Originally posted by lizardbones


    It would be reasonable to assume that the company that Valve has doing this can build each unit for less than we could buy the packages for on New Egg. A complete package using that chip runs $428 right now. Man, if they can sell these things, they are going to make a killing on the hardware alone.

    Is it that the people making these new things that expect people will pay a lot of money for them, or is it that people see things that are relatively new and are willing to pay a lot of money for them?

     

    I'm not sure it is Valve having anyone do this.  I think it is a seperate company building their own product while designing it to work with Steam with Valve's approval.

    Valve will have their own hardware soon enough, so why are they having another company create their own competition?

    El Psy Congroo

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