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MMORPGs; Am I getting old, OR Have they Betrayed me.

24

Comments

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by morbuskabis

    OP I know how you feel! Thats why I was so excited about what's happening with RSI / Star Citizen on kickstarter. My hope is high that kickstarter will bring a flood of innovative and independent games with a ok or high standard/quality.

    Think a big part of the problem are the publishers, that don't want to risk anything and go for "Wow clones" to get the money in. The other part of the problem is us, the gamers, that buy unfinished games and let them get away with shity products and keep buying their stuff.

    It may still take some time, but necessity is the mother of invention!

     

    I wont keep my hopes up. There is little evidence that kickstarter works. In fact, it is just a way to spend money on wishful thinking.

    I would much rather look at the actual indie devs who releases games. There are some cool games out there, though not MMOs.

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member
    Originally posted by Spector88

     

    Am I just getting too old for it, or is there no such thing as a solid MMO anymore. 
     

    If you self-identify as different than the masses, then you're basically broadcasting "don't aim a game at my tastes because I'm a niche market".  Don't delude yourself into thinking there was ever an era when graphical MMOs were not about turning a profit.

  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,474Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Beatnik59

    Yeah these aren't places you can live in anymore.

    They are more or less casinos now, without the chance for a payout at the end.

     I love random loot and for me, they are obviously less casinos.  Things like cash shops, badges, daily quests and other forms of paying for items is just another form of accounting for gains.

  • Johnie-MarzJohnie-Marz La Puente, CAPosts: 865Member
    Originally posted by Spector88

    "This may come as a surprise, but despite your earlier beliefs, you are not the center of the world. These games are not made for you, specifically. They never were. So do us a solid and cut the victim routine"

     

    I hate to break it to you but when it comes to buying games and spending my own money, I am the center of the universe.

  • LatronusLatronus Lexington Park, MDPosts: 692Member

    OP, you haven't gotten too old.  I have been playing games since Atari and Pong and I believe that WoW has done more to destroy the genre than it has to advance it.  Blizzard made it for those that didn't have the time, skill, or patients to succeed in EQ (EQ was a second job after all) and now that the "every kid gets a trophy" and "entitlement generations" are playing games, I don't see anything changing anytime soon.  They dumbed down MMOs and the genre has gotten dumber as the years pass.  It is apparently too hard to do a little research and learn to be able to win.  I mean we can always download an addon to think for us, we still have to press the correct buttons... For now anyway.

    As long as players demand to log in and win to feed their overinflated egos, nothing will change.  There are people that actually think that GW2 is hard.  These same players would probably throw the controller at the TV if they played Donkey Kong.  Too much thinking involved and they wouldn't have the top score as soon as they start, not to mention there wasn't an addon that told them when to jump.

    image
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Johnie-Marz
    Originally posted by Spector88

    "This may come as a surprise, but despite your earlier beliefs, you are not the center of the world. These games are not made for you, specifically. They never were. So do us a solid and cut the victim routine"

     

    I hate to break it to you but when it comes to buying games and spending my own money, I am the center of the universe.

    I hate to break it to you but when it comes to developing games, and attracting an audience, you are not.

     

  • LiltihiaLiltihia Spokane, WAPosts: 19Member
    I went to my parents house a few days ago and went into my old room, it has a cloth RoK EQ1 map on the wall. I cried.
  • RajCajRajCaj Lafayette, LAPosts: 706Member

    You're not alone....I cut my teeth on MMO gaming with Ultima Online, and spent a little time in Star Wars Galaxies & Lineage 2, before I settled on World of Warcraft.  While I'll take a UO experience any day of the week, over what has become a genere of themepark clones, WOW was an excellent game, and a very enjoyable experience for the first few years.  It was a nice change of pace to experience a dungeon scenario that had a beginning & end.

     

    With that said, the falacy in the themepark model is that it's based on one theme of play....action combat to aquire gear, along a scripted linear progression model.  You get a bunch of quests from a hub that has you explore the surrounding area, with the final quest having you run to the next quest hub where you do it all over again.  You raid one dungeon to give you gear that will allow you to have enough HP & damage to complete the next......again, rince repeat.

    It's the same concept, whether your in the lands of Azeroth, Moria, or Tatuine.   After 4+ years of playing WOW (80 levels over several alts), you're tired of the game and are willing to give anything new a shot....hoping you could regain that level of interest & immersion you once had. 

    New game rolls out, you try it out....and after a few weeks, or months, you find yourself having the same bored feeling you had in WOW.  No wings, dynamic public quests or voice acting can cover the fact that you are yet running another delivery or kill quest so that you can get another piece of gear that will allow you access to higher level content that will reward you with yet more gear.

    Because all the AAA publishers tried to sieze on the success & formula that made WOW great, they all used the same linear progression model that appeals to the largest subsection of gamers (casuals).  What they don't understand is that because many of these people have 5+ year histories with this MMO model, they take their burnout baggage from the previous game (usually WOW) with them....and put the game down much faster than they did with their original experience.

    Another self defeating issue these casual MMOs face is that they are built to appeal to casual gamers.  By definition, casual gamers are fickle, and don't have the time, patience, and level of interest to invest long term in any form of entertainment.  Casual MMOs have to compete for casual gamers time with things like movies, tv shows, social media games, mobile platform games, and other single player games.  This drives casual MMO development to make things easier, faster to complete, and with increased rewards in effort to retain their attention.......which plays into the "selling out" feeling many old school MMO gamers feel towards the new stable of MMOs.

    I think though, with the relative failure of SW:TOR, AAA publishers have realized that the MMO genere is too competitive & too costly of an endeavor given the diminishing returns & their inability to reproduce what WOW has done.

    This has made way for many indie companies that don't have the financial burdon to have to create a game for the masses to justify the investment made.  Because they aren't spending 100+ million to develop a game, they don't have to design it to appeal to millions of gamers so that they can recoup the money spent.  They can focus on more niche audiences, and can take chances on more unique experiences.

  • NaughtyPNaughtyP Edmonton, ABPosts: 793Member
    Nothing really lasts forever. Even the current design philosophies are going to die off or change at some point. I'm not too worried.

    Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.

  • LadyEupheiLadyEuphei Indianapolis, INPosts: 223Member

    I am not old and yet still disappointed. I believe it was a miscommunication. We all thought that games were going to become bigger. Bigger worlds, more people, better fighting, better interactions, more crafting, more options for everything. Instead worlds got smaller. I was forced to follow a quest line or grind. My rewards for exploring were taken away or supplemented by petty achievements.

    Even if the MMO market is "growing" companies producing them are taking notice. Once these companies release flop after flop and have to lay off people (BTW laying off is because they are not making enough money) it is finally getting back to them that we have WoW. We want something else, entirely. 

    To the people that have been ragging on the OP: The OP wants fresh new adventures and you are ok in your small box of an MMO. If everything is so happy in your box, please go back to your little box.

    To the OP:  The people are being heard and the day of reckoning is coming. We will see worlds again, it just might take 3 years.

    Im ready! image

    image [need a beer mug clinking emote btw mods]

     

    image

  • ShadanwolfShadanwolf Posts: 2,114Member Uncommon

    OP..I would say

    1) for big  game companys given the time ,cost to produce,financial risk......many game directors are playing it safe and making me too games  for an experienced gaming audience

    2) pressure from investors for a return on their investment grives "more of the same" game development

    3) then you have some people put in charge of mmog game development who don't have a clue about making a mmog(because they never have made one)....SWTOR for example

    4) You have game makers who don't understand the market they are trying to penetrate and it's growing sophistication

    5) Game makers forget spending money on games is discretionary spending. In todays poor economy spending on gaming is getting harder and harder for some gamers to justify.

  • Johnie-MarzJohnie-Marz La Puente, CAPosts: 865Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Johnie-Marz
    Originally posted by Spector88

    "This may come as a surprise, but despite your earlier beliefs, you are not the center of the world. These games are not made for you, specifically. They never were. So do us a solid and cut the victim routine"

     

    I hate to break it to you but when it comes to buying games and spending my own money, I am the center of the universe.

    I hate to break it to you but when it comes to developing games, and attracting an audience, you are not.

     

    Sorry if you play games because other people like them, but I buy games I want to play.

  • kjempffkjempff AarhusPosts: 883Member Uncommon

    The games we remember were about taking us away from the real world and give us the ability to imagine ourselves being someone else for awhile. Escape the real world rules and let the imagination roam within a new world with another set of rules. They managed to Immerse us, because we weren't constantly brought back to real life conscience (suc as: voicechat, point systems, shops, references to everything from Easter eggs to movie references; aswell as other players who aren't playing for roleplaying *loose sense*).  Escapism at its finest, otherwise known as Roleplaying.

     

    You can discuss the reasons, but simple fact is that games are not just about that anymore. Some games contain a little taste of the spice, and you play it anyway trying to ignore the bitter taste of fake that follows. People who dont understand this, will reason you are just getting old and say stuff like "your first mmorpg was....", which you can't really deny because there is some truth to it, but only a little.

    Also we must admit as gamers, we are getting better at everything. If you think about it, you quickly learn how to be "effecient" what combinations work and so on, much quicker than 10-20 years ago. Your demands have risen, and it is after all quite hard to create game patterns that aren't recognizable right away, just as hard now as it was 20 years ago.. computing power may be 1000 times higher but human brain power hasn't risen; computers don't think only humans do :).

     

    Gamers are not gamers anymore, they are consumers and they need to be fed entertainment. So as gaming is an industry and they manufactor gamefood to consumers, it is easy to fall into safe and proven logic. Blizzard is the prime example of this, and yet I enjoyed.. err consumed their games, so am I a gamer of a consumer now? Were we ever really gamers ? Will I recognize or even notice a non-fake game now that I have been on stand-by for so long as a consumer ?

     

    To mention some games that was able to intrigue me and the past few years.. Path Of Exile, Dungeon Defenders, Creeper World. Not since 2004 where the last contender to a real mmorpg was released has any mmorpg been able to Immerse me - I consumed alot of them, and I recognize and enjoyed each for what it was, but mmorpgs they weren't. The mmorpg Era is over, and Everquest Next will prove this once again.

     

     

  • Beatnik59Beatnik59 Chicago, ILPosts: 2,229Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by kjempff

    The games we remember were about taking us away from the real world and give us the ability to imagine ourselves being someone else for awhile. Escape the real world rules and let the imagination roam within a new world with another set of rules. They managed to Immerse us, because we weren't constantly brought back to real life conscience (suc as: voicechat, point systems, shops, references to everything from Easter eggs to movie references; aswell as other players who aren't playing for roleplaying *loose sense*).  Escapism at its finest, otherwise known as Roleplaying.

     

    You can discuss the reasons, but simple fact is that games are not just about that anymore. Some games contain a little taste of the spice, and you play it anyway trying to ignore the bitter taste of fake that follows. People who dont understand this, will reason you are just getting old and say stuff like "your first mmorpg was....", which you can't really deny because there is some truth to it, but only a little.

    Also we must admit as gamers, we are getting better at everything. If you think about it, you quickly learn how to be "effecient" what combinations work and so on, much quicker than 10-20 years ago. Your demands have risen, and it is after all quite hard to create game patterns that aren't recognizable right away, just as hard now as it was 20 years ago.. computing power may be 1000 times higher but human brain power hasn't risen; computers don't think only humans do :).

     

    Gamers are not gamers anymore, they are consumers and they need to be fed entertainment. So as gaming is an industry and they manufactor gamefood to consumers, it is easy to fall into safe and proven logic. Blizzard is the prime example of this, and yet I enjoyed.. err consumed their games, so am I a gamer of a consumer now? Were we ever really gamers ? Will I recognize or even notice a non-fake game now that I have been on stand-by for so long as a consumer ?

     

    To mention some games that was able to intrigue me and the past few years.. Path Of Exile, Dungeon Defenders, Creeper World. Not since 2004 where the last contender to a real mmorpg was released has any mmorpg been able to Immerse me - I consumed alot of them, and I recognize and enjoyed each for what it was, but mmorpgs they weren't. The mmorpg Era is over, and Everquest Next will prove this once again.

     

     

    Spot on post.

    My hope is that games like Minecraft will reintroduce some of those classic features into games again.  Then again, we have to wonder if the publishers even consider these games as "places to live," rather than "places to consume and discard."

    Seems to me that both the players and the publishers have determined that these are "places to consume and discard."  We consume and discard the games, and the games--in turn--consume and discard us when the publishers are through.

    __________________________
    "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
    --Arcken

    "...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
    --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.

    "It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
    --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE

  • BoneserinoBoneserino London, ONPosts: 1,623Member Uncommon

    Hell dude, you are 24 years old according to your profile!  What the hell are you doing playing games you old fart!

    Get out and get a job!!  Games are for kids!

    FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!

  • YakkinYakkin irvine, CAPosts: 919Member

    Something that bugs me: If you love the old games so much, why don't you go back and play those games, instead of lining up to buy the next "shallow, cash grab" like everyone else? Don't you think you are kinda being hypocritical by saying how amazing those games in the past were, and then saying the recent games are shit, but then you go and buy those new games anyways? Wouldn't you be able to send the message that "you don't want these new shallow cash grabs" by not buying them in the first place much more effectively?

    These are MMOs, so even the really old ones would still have some people watching over them to some degree. I'd figure they would notice your preferences better if you actually stuck to the game you said was superior, rather than proclaiming it while playing one of the "cash grabs." Just saying.

  • DeeweDeewe Long Beach, CAPosts: 1,965Member

    Studio used to build virtual world for players to enjoy.

     

    Most of them aren't anymore. They just try to spoon fed the players making most game play boring in the short term.

    Although I have to admit older games were a bit too much a second job than an entertainment, sometimes.

  • BoneserinoBoneserino London, ONPosts: 1,623Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Enigmatus

    Something that bugs me: If you love the old games so much, why don't you go back and play those games, instead of lining up to buy the next "shallow, cash grab" like everyone else? Don't you think you are kinda being hypocritical by saying how amazing those games in the past were, and then saying the recent games are shit, but then you go and buy those new games anyways? Wouldn't you be able to send the message that "you don't want these new shallow cash grabs" by not buying them in the first place much more effectively?

    These are MMOs, so even the really old ones would still have some people watching over them to some degree. I'd figure they would notice your preferences better if you actually stuck to the game you said was superior, rather than proclaiming it while playing one of the "cash grabs." Just saying.

    Cmon Enigma, you know the answer to that.

      If he went back and played the old games he would realize they are just the same as the new games and that would blow the whole illusion, leaving him with nothing to whine about.

    FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!

  • OgreRaperOgreRaper Detroit, MIPosts: 376Member
    I agree. I'm hoping games like EQ:Next can renew my interest in MMO's. Because this lobby based, instanced PvP, instant gratification trend has made me abandon this genre completely.
  • IsaneIsane EnglandPosts: 2,629Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kyleran

    No, it's not you, newer MMO's today largely follow one main design path, and if you don't care for it you're pretty much out of luck.

    But that said, there seems to be some bright spots on the horizon, so keep your eyes open and perhaps one day one of these titles will really suprise and please us.

     

     

    Bright spots for sure......

    ________________________________________________________
    Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel 

  • madazzmadazz A town, ONPosts: 1,564Member Uncommon

    Love it! I knew it was just a matter of time before more people started saying the same thing. Hooray for people voicing their opinions regardless, and hooray for the devs starting to listen too!

  • kjempffkjempff AarhusPosts: 883Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Enigmatus
    Something that bugs me: If you love the old games so much, why don't you go back and play those games, instead of lining up to buy the next "shallow, cash grab" like everyone else? Don't you think you are kinda being hypocritical by saying how amazing those games in the past were, and then saying the recent games are shit, but then you go and buy those new games anyways? Wouldn't you be able to send the message that "you don't want these new shallow cash grabs" by not buying them in the first place much more effectively?

    But.. but.. the addiction.

    I did play Everquest progression servers when they fired up those last year for almost a year. It did have moments where I loved it like I used to, it is not the same game as it was. Without going into details, it was partly the original everyquest game with new rules, but the new rules (and more) are designed for expansion 13 and not good for the first exansions. The team did their best to bring the original Everquest, but I guess you cant throw crazy amound of resources after only 10k players. Apart from Project 1999, the original Everquest is lost in the bit sky. Also with already 500+ days /played before I re-started... That you can do in a game that offers a real Virtual world full of lore combined with good gameplay and endless adventure, compared to this any mmorpg since has felt tiny to me.

  • pmilespmiles Federal Way, WAPosts: 383Member

    Market oversaturation...

    If they made a gazillion versions of pong back in the day, it would have been ho-hum too...

    Remember back in the 70's when Star Wars came out?  People stood in line for days to see it and got right back into the line to see it again.  No one had seen special effects like that before.  By the time movie #3 rolled out we were getting beat over the head with special effects.  By the time the latter movies rolled out, we had seen so much special effects that we could see past it and notice there was nothing else but special effects.

    MMORPGs are like Star Wars Geriatric Edition.  Been done too much and by too many.

    What you're looking for is something other than an MMORPG... in fact, something that hasn't been done before.  

    I'll give you a hint... no game company on the planet at this moment is developing anything new... just more Star Wars sequels.

    Someone needs to come up with Pong... not a clone... but that very first time we've ever seen it before kind of game.  MMORPGS aren't new... they are old... very old.

  • SpectralHunterSpectralHunter So CalPosts: 386Member Uncommon

    When I first started playing MMOs, I hoped that they would evolve more and more into better virtual worlds.  I was hoping MMOs would become a true pen and paper rpg substitute.  But that hasn't happened.  Like all emergent markets, MMOs have been affected by profits. 

    Now, MMOs are less virtual worlds and more games.  They feel like games now.  I suppose that's all good and it draws a huge crowd for profits but a part of me is disappointed that the virtual world is still beyond the horizon.

  • ezpz77ezpz77 Beale, CAPosts: 227Member
    Originally posted by Boneserino
    Originally posted by Enigmatus

    Something that bugs me: If you love the old games so much, why don't you go back and play those games, instead of lining up to buy the next "shallow, cash grab" like everyone else? Don't you think you are kinda being hypocritical by saying how amazing those games in the past were, and then saying the recent games are shit, but then you go and buy those new games anyways? Wouldn't you be able to send the message that "you don't want these new shallow cash grabs" by not buying them in the first place much more effectively?

    These are MMOs, so even the really old ones would still have some people watching over them to some degree. I'd figure they would notice your preferences better if you actually stuck to the game you said was superior, rather than proclaiming it while playing one of the "cash grabs." Just saying.

    Cmon Enigma, you know the answer to that.

      If he went back and played the old games he would realize they are just the same as the new games and that would blow the whole illusion, leaving him with nothing to whine about.

     

    You pretty much nailed it, and it explains a lot of posts on MMORPG.com. People constantly reminisce about the golden era of MMO's when things took forever to accomplish, everything you did was bogged down by overtly stupid mechanics, and the games were "worlds" instead of lobbies or some equally nebulous complaint.

    It's sad. It's like reading the memoirs of an old man who refused to change with or accept the times, and as a result remained in a perpetual state of disappointment and pessimism. When the genre shows signs of moving in a different directon, which it does, people continue to complain that it's not moving fast enough or the new direction isn't backwards enough.

    Over a decade has passed since that "golden era" of MMOs. Teenagers and adults once enthralled by these games are now jaded and burned out. Despite knowing that they don't enjoy the genre as it is, they refuse to move on. They still go out and buy the most recent MMO instead of going back to a game they know they'll enjoy. It boggles my mind that people would willingly stick around and spend money on something they proclaim to dislike and, at the same time, stop supporting the games that they truly did like.

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