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Anet's curious game design decisions that caused the 20-70 wasteland

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  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,503Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by itgrowls

    It actually was because of the tiered armor as reward design, because armor has stats going against their own early statements of how this game was supposed to be all cosmetic, and that lower level areas don't provide higher level rewards for higher level players they've effectively broken this design.

    for example, when trying to help friends in queensland on a level 80 full exotic toon, I can 1 shot just about everything so I can't help my friend because he has 0 chance of getting a hit on anything less then a champion.

    example of a lack of reward thing: none of the hidden or event chests in the game actually scale with the player. Do the shadow swamp boss get level 15 or below items. I know I've tried it.

    So until they change the rewards they'll be making it more boring for the high levels, and until they make the game more horizontal (adding a mentoring system at the level above the zone while in group) there will be this huge difference in damage. (because I doubt very much they'll go back to a truly horizontal game design where gear has no stats at all).

    I'll take your word that chest don't work, but everything else does. And really, I am talking about level 30 to 70. Level 1-15 areas give very diminished returns if you are 80 comparatively.

     

    But I also don't like the gear progression that seems to be creeping in. It would mean even more powerful level 80s coming into lower zones. It goes against everything I thought their intended design was about. So I definitely see where you are coming from there.

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    No mentoring system - it ends up being a speed leveling system and that also means that would have to get rid of the linear leveling model.

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • VolkonVolkon Sterling, VAPosts: 3,788Member
    Originally posted by itgrowls
    Originally posted by Nadia
    Originally posted by Lobotomist

    There you go.

    They want for people to play lower level zones. But they dont want want to reward them for doing so.

    Clueless design 101

    Originally posted by Terranah

    Regarding rewards in lower level zones, light night I was in the Sylvaran zone 1-15.  Killed a flying miniboss of some kind and got a level 80 exotic short bow: Avirdanag with a Superior Sigil of Bloodlust.  Stacks 10 power per kill to max of 25.  I was like, "Yay!"  I already have a level 80 exotic shortbow that I use so at first I was thinking maybe to auction it.  I check the auction and it's selling for 5 gold 74 silver.  I was like, "Damn!"  I was so close to selling it, but then I thought I probably wouldn't buy it myself for that price so I should just equip it.  I love it! 

    I am looting low level gear but also stuff 76 to 78.  Making decent money gathering/vendoring/auctioning.

    just saying..

    Unfortunately this isn't the design I've experienced, or thousands like me. When we go to low level areas usually they don't drop anything unless it's a fluke. Go back there and try to farm these things and tell me what happens. because I can tell you right now what will happen, you'll get mostly junk, greys all in the name of taking out bots. Getting a fluke drop does not equal a great reward system. Sorry.

    Heh... first off you're not convincing me that you even bother going into low level areas. But that's besides the point... the point is not that they want 80s to flood the low areas and go nuts getting loot. The point is that they want there to be a chance that if you are 80 and drop down to help a friend you'll still get appropriate rewards. No, it won't be every time. You may get some low level items, you may get high level junk. But as a reward for going to those zones there's a chance you'll get a nice drop.

    Oderint, dum metuant.
    image

  • itgrowlsitgrowls newport news, VAPosts: 2,951Member
    Originally posted by Volkon
    Originally posted by itgrowls
    Originally posted by Nadia
    Originally posted by Lobotomist

    There you go.

    They want for people to play lower level zones. But they dont want want to reward them for doing so.

    Clueless design 101

    Originally posted by Terranah

    Regarding rewards in lower level zones, light night I was in the Sylvaran zone 1-15.  Killed a flying miniboss of some kind and got a level 80 exotic short bow: Avirdanag with a Superior Sigil of Bloodlust.  Stacks 10 power per kill to max of 25.  I was like, "Yay!"  I already have a level 80 exotic shortbow that I use so at first I was thinking maybe to auction it.  I check the auction and it's selling for 5 gold 74 silver.  I was like, "Damn!"  I was so close to selling it, but then I thought I probably wouldn't buy it myself for that price so I should just equip it.  I love it! 

    I am looting low level gear but also stuff 76 to 78.  Making decent money gathering/vendoring/auctioning.

    just saying..

    Unfortunately this isn't the design I've experienced, or thousands like me. When we go to low level areas usually they don't drop anything unless it's a fluke. Go back there and try to farm these things and tell me what happens. because I can tell you right now what will happen, you'll get mostly junk, greys all in the name of taking out bots. Getting a fluke drop does not equal a great reward system. Sorry.

    Heh... first off you're not convincing me that you even bother going into low level areas. But that's besides the point... the point is not that they want 80s to flood the low areas and go nuts getting loot. The point is that they want there to be a chance that if you are 80 and drop down to help a friend you'll still get appropriate rewards. No, it won't be every time. You may get some low level items, you may get high level junk. But as a reward for going to those zones there's a chance you'll get a nice drop.

    20 or so posts on the official forums reporting the crappy drops I get every time i go anywhere level 55+ and the 70 or so times I've gone to level 1-30 zones to help new guildies and my husband would like to have a word with you.

    They don't even allow you to farm in these lower level areas without hitting DR, ever tried as a leatherworker to get coarse leather consistantly??? not even salvaging allows you enough. And don't get me started on how animals don't drop their parts, Zevra hooves anyone? seriously. you're just wrong sorry. When I say rewards I mean rewards, not some currency you can't use to buy anything worth while either because after you've bought your armor pieces from Orr what else is there? green peppers? you can't convert it to gold so where are the rewards?

  • PurutzilPurutzil East Stroudsburg, PAPosts: 2,927Member Uncommon

    Its not really a surprise to me. It happens in a lot of MMos and GW2 isn't an exception. Sure you 'could' go back and do places but unless they changed something (which I see nothing about it) you get less out of it then doing the stuff at your own level. Experience in particular was lacking during my time playing as doing the lower level stuff could noteably make it take longer to level due to giving less experience as the exp per level slowly increased (not as slow as other MMos but its definently noticable as you advance). The quickest root is to do stuff close to your level or even possibly above a bit. 

     

    Without numbers, the events become a lot more difficult to do which when it comes to the 'middle' content, its going to be more empty as often there is more players starting and at the end then at the middle. 

     

    I honestly feel there isn't much to do to fix this. The only way would be to make it so the rewards are equal everywhere you go (I mean completely equal) and it would also involve zones being entertaining, which even if they made every area fun to be play in, chances are some will stick out more then others and one area will have more players and leave the other still empty.

     

    Unless they add something to 'farm' in each individual zone, I just don't see much working to change this, and even IF they added farming required in each zone, its only a matter of time before everyone finishes it and it becomes empty again leaving others with the tedious task of farming WITHOUT anyone to make it more 'fun'.

  • asmkm22asmkm22 Anchorage, AKPosts: 1,788Member
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Which themepark style game are you playing that has all the mid-level zones bustling with people? 

    Amazingly, WoW is pretty bustling these days due to the sheer number of players and the way they have kind of combined servers for many zones.

    You make me like charity

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,503Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by asmkm22
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Which themepark style game are you playing that has all the mid-level zones bustling with people? 

    Amazingly, WoW is pretty bustling these days due to the sheer number of players and the way they have kind of combined servers for many zones.

    They really aren't. The CRZ stuff has died down drastically. I jsut elveled a Monk with my bro from 1-90. Empty. We did occasionally see people from other servers, but it was really rare. Like I said, like 1-2 people every rare once in a while.

     

    Edit: For instance, right now there are 2 people besides me in all of Southern Barrens and only 1 is the appropriate level on Hellscream. I saw 2 people earlier from another server in person.

  • darkhalf357xdarkhalf357x Brooklyn, NYPosts: 1,164Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Volkon

    You don't actually play GW2, do you?

     

    Level scaling keeps zones competitive. In archaic games like WoW, people simply don't go back to the lower level zones because they out-levelled them rendering them completely useless. In GW2 the zone still can give you a challenge and you're rewarded based on your level, not the level of the zone. 

    Invisible walls? I don't recall running into any at all. At least, there's nothing invisible about a massive mountain range, for example. The shape of the zones is beautifully hidden by the artistry of them. It feels like a breathing world, not a static box.

    The only place I've seen the "state of fail" issue with DEs is Orr, the end area. That problem lasts about as long as it takes to annouce that an event is up to change that. People arrive, the push is on and before you know it you're checking out exotics from the vendor.

    You dont play WoW do you?  High levels are always going to low level zones since there are other things to do besides kill mobs.  Most are collecting resources or are completing achievements (rare pets, archeology, etc).

    I cant speak to the OPs reasoning but I can say that I am level 23 Asura in GW2 and my server is EMPTY at low levels.  There is NO chat and I don't see anyone but enemies.  It doesn't feel like an MMO anymore.  Ill probably log in again when an expansion is released since they will probably bring in a new user base that has to start the low levels.

    image
  • fat_taddlerfat_taddler Wanaque, NJPosts: 286Member
    Originally posted by Nadia
    Originally posted by Lobotomist

    There you go.

    They want for people to play lower level zones. But they dont want want to reward them for doing so.

    Clueless design 101

    Originally posted by Terranah

    Regarding rewards in lower level zones, light night I was in the Sylvaran zone 1-15.  Killed a flying miniboss of some kind and got a level 80 exotic short bow: Avirdanag with a Superior Sigil of Bloodlust.  Stacks 10 power per kill to max of 25.  I was like, "Yay!"  I already have a level 80 exotic shortbow that I use so at first I was thinking maybe to auction it.  I check the auction and it's selling for 5 gold 74 silver.  I was like, "Damn!"  I was so close to selling it, but then I thought I probably wouldn't buy it myself for that price so I should just equip it.  I love it! 

    I am looting low level gear but also stuff 76 to 78.  Making decent money gathering/vendoring/auctioning.

    just saying..

    We could get into semantics all day and I'm sure plenty of people could point out an instance where they got a decent drop at one time or another.

    The real issue is that the game isn't even 5 months old yet and many of the zones are absolutely void of player activity.   Couple this with that fact that DE's often require groups and you've got a system that sounded good on paper but clearly did not stand the test of time.   

    We can also point at other themepark games having dead zones but those games didn't hinge a good portion of the PvE leveling experience on a system that is often impossible to solo if you're level / gear  appropriate for that zone.  

  • darkhalf357xdarkhalf357x Brooklyn, NYPosts: 1,164Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Purutzil

    Its not really a surprise to me. It happens in a lot of MMos and GW2 isn't an exception. Sure you 'could' go back and do places but unless they changed something (which I see nothing about it) you get less out of it then doing the stuff at your own level. Experience in particular was lacking during my time playing as doing the lower level stuff could noteably make it take longer to level due to giving less experience as the exp per level slowly increased (not as slow as other MMos but its definently noticable as you advance). The quickest root is to do stuff close to your level or even possibly above a bit. 

     

    Without numbers, the events become a lot more difficult to do which when it comes to the 'middle' content, its going to be more empty as often there is more players starting and at the end then at the middle. 

     

    I honestly feel there isn't much to do to fix this. The only way would be to make it so the rewards are equal everywhere you go (I mean completely equal) and it would also involve zones being entertaining, which even if they made every area fun to be play in, chances are some will stick out more then others and one area will have more players and leave the other still empty.

     

    Unless they add something to 'farm' in each individual zone, I just don't see much working to change this, and even IF they added farming required in each zone, its only a matter of time before everyone finishes it and it becomes empty again leaving others with the tedious task of farming WITHOUT anyone to make it more 'fun'.

    I agree.  I call this the 'theme park syndrome' where content is only there to level/progress the character to the next area.    There is nothing in the low level zones (of value) to warrant a revisit.   I think this is what has to change.  Instead of creating these 'tiered' zones - make a world and make it interesting so people are constantly visiting various areas.  Give us other things to do other than level / gear / jumping puzzles /etc

    image
  • TerranahTerranah Stockton, CAPosts: 3,605Member

    Wow, there's a lot of cynical people out there.  One person says they aren't 'convinced' I'm going into low level zones?  I'm trying to get 100% map completion, so I'm hitting all the zones that aren't finished, including the low ones.  I've been playing since launch and so far only to 70% completion, but I do a lot of the quests in the areas I'm in and try to find hidden areas.  As I have posted many times, I'm not a min/maxer.  I'm in it for the experience, not the ego.

     

    Second, yeah I was suprised I got the Exotic yesterday.  Surprised because it doesn't happen that often, but I have gotten level 80 exotics from low to mid range areas, unfortunately I had better or couldn't use it do to profession restriction.  As far as loot goes, I'm getting whites, blues, greens, with a wide range of levels.  A lot of it is low level, but a fair amount is also 76 to 78, some 80 but not much.

     

    If people don't believe, lol...I don't know what to tell ya.

     

    As far as crafting and farming components, I don't craft so I can't speak to that.  I auction/vendor all crafting items.

  • BTrayaLBTrayaL BucharestPosts: 595Member Uncommon
    @OP: Play the game before discussing it. Seriously!

    image
  • TerranahTerranah Stockton, CAPosts: 3,605Member
    I should add that, yes, of course if I wanted to specifically loot level appropriate gear or make lots of gold I wouldn't be bothering with the low levels.  But completing the map is one of my goals.  I need to get around to finishing my 'story' line, but it is kind of meh...I like to do my own thing.
  • VolkonVolkon Sterling, VAPosts: 3,788Member
    Originally posted by darkhalf357x
    Originally posted by Volkon

    You don't actually play GW2, do you?

     

    Level scaling keeps zones competitive. In archaic games like WoW, people simply don't go back to the lower level zones because they out-levelled them rendering them completely useless. In GW2 the zone still can give you a challenge and you're rewarded based on your level, not the level of the zone. 

    Invisible walls? I don't recall running into any at all. At least, there's nothing invisible about a massive mountain range, for example. The shape of the zones is beautifully hidden by the artistry of them. It feels like a breathing world, not a static box.

    The only place I've seen the "state of fail" issue with DEs is Orr, the end area. That problem lasts about as long as it takes to annouce that an event is up to change that. People arrive, the push is on and before you know it you're checking out exotics from the vendor.

    You dont play WoW do you?  High levels are always going to low level zones since there are other things to do besides kill mobs.  Most are collecting resources or are completing achievements (rare pets, archeology, etc).

    I cant speak to the OPs reasoning but I can say that I am level 23 Asura in GW2 and my server is EMPTY at low levels.  There is NO chat and I don't see anyone but enemies.  It doesn't feel like an MMO anymore.  Ill probably log in again when an expansion is released since they will probably bring in a new user base that has to start the low levels.

    Not since right before Cata released. Couldn't stand the thought of restarting the treadmill and all that raid gear becoming instantly obsolete yet again. I've a new necro that's just hit level 35, but the last five levels were all in WvW. Prior to that I haven't been in an empty zone yet levelling. Maybe it depends on the server... Jade Quarry is hopping right now with people.

    Oderint, dum metuant.
    image

  • SerenesSerenes johnson city, TNPosts: 352Member
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by asmkm22
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Which themepark style game are you playing that has all the mid-level zones bustling with people? 

    Amazingly, WoW is pretty bustling these days due to the sheer number of players and the way they have kind of combined servers for many zones.

    They really aren't. The CRZ stuff has died down drastically. I jsut elveled a Monk with my bro from 1-90. Empty. We did occasionally see people from other servers, but it was really rare. Like I said, like 1-2 people every rare once in a while.

     

    Edit: For instance, right now there are 2 people besides me in all of Southern Barrens and only 1 is the appropriate level on Hellscream. I saw 2 people earlier from another server in person.

    They really are. I doubt you have even played WoW sense MoP. I have leveled 2 new toons sense then and no the areas are not brimming with players but I do see quite a few more then I use to.

  • ScarfeScarfe londonPosts: 281Member
    Originally posted by Serenes
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by asmkm22
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Which themepark style game are you playing that has all the mid-level zones bustling with people? 

    Amazingly, WoW is pretty bustling these days due to the sheer number of players and the way they have kind of combined servers for many zones.

    They really aren't. The CRZ stuff has died down drastically. I jsut elveled a Monk with my bro from 1-90. Empty. We did occasionally see people from other servers, but it was really rare. Like I said, like 1-2 people every rare once in a while.

     

    Edit: For instance, right now there are 2 people besides me in all of Southern Barrens and only 1 is the appropriate level on Hellscream. I saw 2 people earlier from another server in person.

    They really are. I doubt you have even played WoW sense MoP. I have leveled 2 new toons sense then and no the areas are not brimming with players but I do see quite a few more then I use to.

    Since he just levelled a Monk from 1-90 I'd say he has. 

    currently playing: DDO, AOC, WoT, P101

  • darkhalf357xdarkhalf357x Brooklyn, NYPosts: 1,164Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Volkon
    Originally posted by darkhalf357x
    Originally posted by Volkon

    You don't actually play GW2, do you?

     

    Level scaling keeps zones competitive. In archaic games like WoW, people simply don't go back to the lower level zones because they out-levelled them rendering them completely useless. In GW2 the zone still can give you a challenge and you're rewarded based on your level, not the level of the zone. 

    Invisible walls? I don't recall running into any at all. At least, there's nothing invisible about a massive mountain range, for example. The shape of the zones is beautifully hidden by the artistry of them. It feels like a breathing world, not a static box.

    The only place I've seen the "state of fail" issue with DEs is Orr, the end area. That problem lasts about as long as it takes to annouce that an event is up to change that. People arrive, the push is on and before you know it you're checking out exotics from the vendor.

    You dont play WoW do you?  High levels are always going to low level zones since there are other things to do besides kill mobs.  Most are collecting resources or are completing achievements (rare pets, archeology, etc).

    I cant speak to the OPs reasoning but I can say that I am level 23 Asura in GW2 and my server is EMPTY at low levels.  There is NO chat and I don't see anyone but enemies.  It doesn't feel like an MMO anymore.  Ill probably log in again when an expansion is released since they will probably bring in a new user base that has to start the low levels.

    Not since right before Cata released. Couldn't stand the thought of restarting the treadmill and all that raid gear becoming instantly obsolete yet again. I've a new necro that's just hit level 35, but the last five levels were all in WvW. Prior to that I haven't been in an empty zone yet levelling. Maybe it depends on the server... Jade Quarry is hopping right now with people.

    To be fair I started with MoP ;-) .. and actually impressed.  Definitely has its limitations due to age but is a nice filler until ArcheAge or something else I really want to play comes out.   I tried to get on Jade Quarry (thats the server MMORPG is on) but it was FULL by the time I started character creation.  I'm on an East Coast server (cant remember which one) but it is definitely quiet.   I'll try my Sylvari Archer level 6 and see how populated that is.

    But I will admit playing GW2 has exposed that I am a gamer who likes progression and understand that goes against what GW2 was trying to achieve.

    image
  • moosecatlolmoosecatlol Boring, TXPosts: 1,175Member Uncommon

    I only agree with the invisible walls, each zone is nothing more than a square/rectangle-esque platform with nothing but water in the shape of a square/rectangle below the surface.

    I find more invisible walls in GW2 than I do in Borderlands 2. Invisible walls are the ultimate immersion killer T_T.

  • VolkonVolkon Sterling, VAPosts: 3,788Member
    Originally posted by moosecatlol

    I only agree with the invisible walls, each zone is nothing more than a square/rectangle-esque platform with nothing but water in the shape of a square/rectangle below the surface.

    I find more invisible walls in GW2 than I do in Borderlands 2. Invisible walls are the ultimate immersion killer T_T.

    What invisible walls? Where? 

     

    I haven't seen them yet.

    Oderint, dum metuant.
    image

  • ScarfeScarfe londonPosts: 281Member
    Originally posted by Volkon
    Originally posted by moosecatlol

    I only agree with the invisible walls, each zone is nothing more than a square/rectangle-esque platform with nothing but water in the shape of a square/rectangle below the surface.

    I find more invisible walls in GW2 than I do in Borderlands 2. Invisible walls are the ultimate immersion killer T_T.

    What invisible walls? Where? 

     

    I haven't seen them yet.

    He means artificial walls, and there are a hell of a lot of those, horribly designed and implemented. 

    currently playing: DDO, AOC, WoT, P101

  • dllddlld GöteborgPosts: 542Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Terranah

    Second, yeah I was suprised I got the Exotic yesterday.  Surprised because it doesn't happen that often, but I have gotten level 80 exotics from low to mid range areas, unfortunately I had better or couldn't use it do to profession restriction.  As far as loot goes, I'm getting whites, blues, greens, with a wide range of levels.  A lot of it is low level, but a fair amount is also 76 to 78, some 80 but not much.

    You've gotten multiple exotics drops from mobs? And not zone completion rewards or chests that have a high chance like mad king dungeon? That's lucky.. 784 hours played, i've yet to see a mob drop an exotic (same goes for black lion chest keys).

  • fat_taddlerfat_taddler Wanaque, NJPosts: 286Member
    Originally posted by Scarfe
    Originally posted by Volkon
    Originally posted by moosecatlol

    I only agree with the invisible walls, each zone is nothing more than a square/rectangle-esque platform with nothing but water in the shape of a square/rectangle below the surface.

    I find more invisible walls in GW2 than I do in Borderlands 2. Invisible walls are the ultimate immersion killer T_T.

    What invisible walls? Where? 

     

    I haven't seen them yet.

    He means artificial walls, and there are a hell of a lot of those, horribly designed and implemented. 

    I've always been amazed by the collective pass given to ANet by both critics and gamers when it came to the rectangular zones.   Seems like something you'd see in an old 8-bit game, not Game of the Year for 2012.

  • lathaanlathaan viennaPosts: 475Member Uncommon
    its adressed in the jan/feb updates.
  • VolkonVolkon Sterling, VAPosts: 3,788Member
    Originally posted by Scarfe
    Originally posted by Volkon
    Originally posted by moosecatlol

    I only agree with the invisible walls, each zone is nothing more than a square/rectangle-esque platform with nothing but water in the shape of a square/rectangle below the surface.

    I find more invisible walls in GW2 than I do in Borderlands 2. Invisible walls are the ultimate immersion killer T_T.

    What invisible walls? Where? 

     

    I haven't seen them yet.

    He means artificial walls, and there are a hell of a lot of those, horribly designed and implemented. 

    Such as? The mountains and such used blend in nicely with the landscape for example. What "artificial walls" are "horribly designed and implemented"? Examples would be nice, screenshots even better. 

    Oderint, dum metuant.
    image

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    Originally posted by Volkon
    Originally posted by Scarfe
    Originally posted by Volkon
    Originally posted by moosecatlol

    I only agree with the invisible walls, each zone is nothing more than a square/rectangle-esque platform with nothing but water in the shape of a square/rectangle below the surface.

    I find more invisible walls in GW2 than I do in Borderlands 2. Invisible walls are the ultimate immersion killer T_T.

    What invisible walls? Where? 

     

    I haven't seen them yet.

    He means artificial walls, and there are a hell of a lot of those, horribly designed and implemented. 

    Such as? The mountains and such used blend in nicely with the landscape for example. What "artificial walls" are "horribly designed and implemented"? Examples would be nice, screenshots even better. 

    Where are they? I have one character at 70% map and have not run into a glass wall like I did in GW1. Please show examples.

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

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