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Anet's curious game design decisions that caused the 20-70 wasteland

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  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Manchester, NHPosts: 2,928Member Uncommon
    It's pretty dumb not to scale the DE's to the number of players actually in that area.  MMO design 101 right there.
  • VolkonVolkon Sterling, VAPosts: 3,788Member
    Originally posted by kyssari

    My biggest issue with this so called wasteland is GW2's skill system actually. That being said the wasteland exists more 30-80 rather than 20. The thing is once you hit 30 and unlock your Elite skill slot you can technically have every skill in the game unlocked that your character can ever possibly use. You can easily get all the skillpoints from all the pvp zones and 1-35 zones (and even a number of higher ones if have to) to unlock everything at 30.

    That being said I often found myself burning out around mid30s-40 with my alts because by that time I had all the skills unlocked I was interested in and thus I really had nothing to look foward to until 80. That leaves 40-50 lvls of nothing but gear upgrades really. With most other mmo's leveling up to gain access to those cool new abilities played a much larger part in making me want to hit those high levels with numerous toons so I could play with those new abilities. This doesn't really exist in as much with GW2, especially when you ause the Heart of the Mists area.

    Not saying the system is good or bad just the biggest reason for my fast burnout on the game in general.

     

    Wow, someone is forgetting to allocate their trait points it seems. You don't seem to realize how much you can customize your character with traits. One I like personally is one that I use to change dodging into an offensive weapon for my mesmer. There are more layers than just the skills you see on top.

    Oderint, dum metuant.
    image

  • VolkonVolkon Sterling, VAPosts: 3,788Member
    Originally posted by Lobotomist

    Zone level scaling is simply not implemented in a good way.

     

    Here is what happens :

    1. You are scalled to roughly same level as content but you are still more powerful due to your equiped gear.

    - This is somehow good and would encourage players to play these zones since they are more effective in playing them ...

    However

    1. Zone rewards and item drops are same as zone level -

    - Why should player grind (play) zone that gives him less reward than another one ?

     

     

    This is  incorrect... item drops also scale to your actual level.

    Oderint, dum metuant.
    image

  • VolkonVolkon Sterling, VAPosts: 3,788Member
    Originally posted by FrodoFragins
    It's pretty dumb not to scale the DE's to the number of players actually in that area.  MMO design 101 right there.

    They scale to the number of people actually participating in the events.

    Oderint, dum metuant.
    image

  • LadyEupheiLadyEuphei Indianapolis, INPosts: 223Member
    I blame it on fractals. That is all everyone does now adays. They need to make something compelling to leave fractals or the occational dungeon. Give us some reason to explore again!

    image

  • BloodaxesBloodaxes ZabbarPosts: 2,651Member Uncommon
    I was forced to move in the human maps to finish events else I was 90% of the times alone and no champion fight event was ever done...

    image

  • fat_taddlerfat_taddler Wanaque, NJPosts: 286Member
    Originally posted by Volkon
    Originally posted by Lobotomist

    Zone level scaling is simply not implemented in a good way.

     

    Here is what happens :

    1. You are scalled to roughly same level as content but you are still more powerful due to your equiped gear.

    - This is somehow good and would encourage players to play these zones since they are more effective in playing them ...

    However

    1. Zone rewards and item drops are same as zone level -

    - Why should player grind (play) zone that gives him less reward than another one ?

     

     

    This is  incorrect... item drops also scale to your actual level.

    Getting an item drop that you can actually use is such a remote possibility and certainly does not provide enough incentive for most high level players to spend time in the lower level zones. 

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,501Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by fat_taddler
    Originally posted by Volkon
    Originally posted by Lobotomist

    Zone level scaling is simply not implemented in a good way.

     

    Here is what happens :

    1. You are scalled to roughly same level as content but you are still more powerful due to your equiped gear.

    - This is somehow good and would encourage players to play these zones since they are more effective in playing them ...

    However

    1. Zone rewards and item drops are same as zone level -

    - Why should player grind (play) zone that gives him less reward than another one ?

    This is  incorrect... item drops also scale to your actual level.

    Getting an item drop that you can actually use is such a remote possibility and certainly does not provide enough incentive for most high level players to spend time in the lower level zones. 

    Yeah, it's tough because if you make it give the same rewards as the top zones, people will begin farming lower zones for items. They talked about this one time and it's the reason why the drop rates are much lower in lower level zones for similar level gear.

  • Lazarus71Lazarus71 Celina, OHPosts: 1,025Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by fat_taddler
    Originally posted by Volkon
    Originally posted by Lobotomist

    Zone level scaling is simply not implemented in a good way.

     

    Here is what happens :

    1. You are scalled to roughly same level as content but you are still more powerful due to your equiped gear.

    - This is somehow good and would encourage players to play these zones since they are more effective in playing them ...

    However

    1. Zone rewards and item drops are same as zone level -

    - Why should player grind (play) zone that gives him less reward than another one ?

    This is  incorrect... item drops also scale to your actual level.

    Getting an item drop that you can actually use is such a remote possibility and certainly does not provide enough incentive for most high level players to spend time in the lower level zones. 

    Yeah, it's tough because if you make it give the same rewards as the top zones, people will begin farming lower zones for items. They talked about this one time and it's the reason why the drop rates are much lower in lower level zones for similar level gear.

    It all makes me realize how monumentally challenging it would be to be part of these games development, upkeep and evolution lol.

    No signature, I don't have a pen

  • dllddlld GöteborgPosts: 541Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by fat_taddler
    Originally posted by Volkon
    Originally posted by Lobotomist

    Zone level scaling is simply not implemented in a good way.

     

    Here is what happens :

    1. You are scalled to roughly same level as content but you are still more powerful due to your equiped gear.

    - This is somehow good and would encourage players to play these zones since they are more effective in playing them ...

    However

    1. Zone rewards and item drops are same as zone level -

    - Why should player grind (play) zone that gives him less reward than another one ?

     

     

    This is  incorrect... item drops also scale to your actual level.

    Getting an item drop that you can actually use is such a remote possibility and certainly does not provide enough incentive for most high level players to spend time in the lower level zones. 

    Getting an item drop I could use was rare no matter what, atleast 80% of my upgrades while leveling came from heart vendors and PS.

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    Originally posted by fat_taddler
    Originally posted by Volkon
    Originally posted by Lobotomist

    Zone level scaling is simply not implemented in a good way.

     

    Here is what happens :

    1. You are scalled to roughly same level as content but you are still more powerful due to your equiped gear.

    - This is somehow good and would encourage players to play these zones since they are more effective in playing them ...

    However

    1. Zone rewards and item drops are same as zone level -

    - Why should player grind (play) zone that gives him less reward than another one ?

     

     

    This is  incorrect... item drops also scale to your actual level.

    Getting an item drop that you can actually use is such a remote possibility and certainly does not provide enough incentive for most high level players to spend time in the lower level zones. 

    I often get items with my lvl 80 which can be used and more often than not better than what I have. I have not done any grinding, like many do, for exotics.

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • Four0SixFour0Six Missoula, MTPosts: 1,181Member Uncommon

    I am fairly amused at how fast a thread about GW2 and its faults turns into pages of WoW-this, WoW >GW2 -that, No GW2>WoW-yadda-yadda.

    Here on MMORPG fourms I see tons and tons of "discussions" devolve into "arguments". Not even good arguments, just mostly "pissing-matches". I am sure my post history will reveal that I too am guilty of this.

    It is quite possible that our genera of games fails to move forward because this community we laud as a wealth of incite, is actually junk. Since we fill the bins of "incite" with junk, we get junk in return.

    Meh.

    As far as GW2 is concerned, the mid-levels are horrible. My opinion. I played a Asura, Mesmer till 60ish. The only "New-to-Me-Thing" I felt was in GW2. I beleive, this is the result of building a "Zerg" of a game. The events, as previously stated, are not scaled down for 1 player, they are designed for groups. Groups which are built of a "mob" of untalkative players, that suffers no penility, nor gains a reward from actualy grouping in the open world.

    For me there would be a reason to go around the whole world, as I like achievements. But then there is level-scaling. Yup that thing to encurage players to return to zones, does for me the reverse. If I am completing an zone for an achievement, I minght to "crank it out". Not be forced to fight every mob I see just as when I began a level range. This turns into a grind. Let alone the rare conversation about wht are the rewards when you stop gaining XP, as in cap, any reward for spending all that extra time grinding white mobs to get your vistas, hearts, explore yadda yadda?

    So I havent played in a long time, meh, prolly got my box price worth.

    Thinking about it now, GW2 sholdn't have XP, or levels at all. You should be cap right from the start, with skills to unlock. You could have to collect hearts to unlock traits or something. But really there is very little in the way of character-leveling-advancement. The advancement in GW2 seems almost like all other MMORPG-endgame advancement.

     

    Four0six, out.

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,501Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Four0Six

    I am fairly amused at how fast a thread about GW2 and its faults turns into pages of WoW-this, WoW >GW2 -that, No GW2>WoW-yadda-yadda.

    Here on MMORPG fourms I see tons and tons of "discussions" devolve into "arguments". Not even good arguments, just mostly "pissing-matches". I am sure my post history will reveal that I too am guilty of this.

    It is quite possible that our genera of games fails to move forward because this community we laud as a wealth of incite, is actually junk. Since we fill the bins of "incite" with junk, we get junk in return.

    Meh.

    I think that lies shouldn't be tolerated because it destroys rational discussion. How would you propose to deal with someone that is repeatedly lying? Mid level ranges being empty in the world is an issue that deserves discussion. But it's not only GW2. It's a fundamental design problem with all themeparks at the moment. A few months after either an expansion or a new game release, the mid-level zone's population diminishes.

     

    So I called the guy out, he kept backing up and then it was final. He was compeltely fabricating the entire story. I have had that character in the zone on my other monitor for over an hour now. Not one single person has entered the entire time. I have not seen one CRZ person while passively walking around. 

     

    It's not about WoW vs GW2. I like both games for different reasons. It should be about how we actually deal with the issue that runs so rampant in all themepark MMORPGs.

  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Manchester, NHPosts: 2,928Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Volkon
    Originally posted by kyssari

    My biggest issue with this so called wasteland is GW2's skill system actually. That being said the wasteland exists more 30-80 rather than 20. The thing is once you hit 30 and unlock your Elite skill slot you can technically have every skill in the game unlocked that your character can ever possibly use. You can easily get all the skillpoints from all the pvp zones and 1-35 zones (and even a number of higher ones if have to) to unlock everything at 30.

    That being said I often found myself burning out around mid30s-40 with my alts because by that time I had all the skills unlocked I was interested in and thus I really had nothing to look foward to until 80. That leaves 40-50 lvls of nothing but gear upgrades really. With most other mmo's leveling up to gain access to those cool new abilities played a much larger part in making me want to hit those high levels with numerous toons so I could play with those new abilities. This doesn't really exist in as much with GW2, especially when you ause the Heart of the Mists area.

    Not saying the system is good or bad just the biggest reason for my fast burnout on the game in general.

     

    Wow, someone is forgetting to allocate their trait points it seems. You don't seem to realize how much you can customize your character with traits. One I like personally is one that I use to change dodging into an offensive weapon for my mesmer. There are more layers than just the skills you see on top.

    Traits are a pure replacement for a deep skill system.  Their weapon based skill system is the #1 reason why combat bored me.

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    Originally posted by FrodoFragins
    Originally posted by Volkon
    Originally posted by kyssari

    My biggest issue with this so called wasteland is GW2's skill system actually. That being said the wasteland exists more 30-80 rather than 20. The thing is once you hit 30 and unlock your Elite skill slot you can technically have every skill in the game unlocked that your character can ever possibly use. You can easily get all the skillpoints from all the pvp zones and 1-35 zones (and even a number of higher ones if have to) to unlock everything at 30.

    That being said I often found myself burning out around mid30s-40 with my alts because by that time I had all the skills unlocked I was interested in and thus I really had nothing to look foward to until 80. That leaves 40-50 lvls of nothing but gear upgrades really. With most other mmo's leveling up to gain access to those cool new abilities played a much larger part in making me want to hit those high levels with numerous toons so I could play with those new abilities. This doesn't really exist in as much with GW2, especially when you ause the Heart of the Mists area.

    Not saying the system is good or bad just the biggest reason for my fast burnout on the game in general.

     

    Wow, someone is forgetting to allocate their trait points it seems. You don't seem to realize how much you can customize your character with traits. One I like personally is one that I use to change dodging into an offensive weapon for my mesmer. There are more layers than just the skills you see on top.

    Traits are a pure replacement for a deep skill system.  Their weapon based skill system is the #1 reason why combat bored me.

    I find it hysterical that people WANTED weapon based skills and when they get it - they complain (I mean in general). My one complaint with Rift was that many skills were not weapon specific - it would have made easier for builds - instead you get an enormous amount of useless skills.

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • Crazy_StickCrazy_Stick Privacy Preferred, NCPosts: 1,059Member
    Originally posted by jpnz

    In a reddit AMA, ANet's devs accepted the 20-70 wasteland issue as valid and said 'we'll have to figure something out'.

    An MMO that is top / bottom level heavy isn't anything new but compared to other MMOs, apparently this issue was more extreme.

    It also doesn't help that most DE will constantly fail if there isn't enough players involved which means most players can't progress and see the next one. Since DE was suppose to be GW2's most hyped feature (as an aside, remember the 'zones will change!' lie? ANet, what happened? T_T), having it constantly in a failed state highlights this issue even more.

    So what are the major design decisions that made this issue into such a big one?

    1. Level scaling. Having a constant challenge by scaling is a game design decision that is mostly in racing games now and for good reason. If you are at level cap in WoW or other MMOs, going to any area that isn't the 'high end' doesn't really concern you.  You will ROFL-STOMP everything in that zone so there is little barrier on actually doing it.

    Not in GW2. Whether you like this design or not, it is manifesting in GW2 with the 'wasteland' problem as there will be less players willing to go to a zone if there are little rewards for a lot of risk.

     

    2. Too many mobs / areas have too many invisible walls

    The GW2 map shows a game world that screams 'arificial'. There are no 'curves' or anything. Just straight up rectangles filled with invisible walls.

    The mob intensity makes it really difficult to travel from point A to point B and so people are less willing to do it.

     

    3. Self-recursive problem

    The problem itself of 'less people in the world' causes issue 2 to become even worse which in turn causes more people to avoid going out into the world.

     

    I said 'curious' cause I don't think they were thoughtout that well and now ANet is trying to figure something out.

    They mentioned that they don't like the henchmen idea but I don't see a solution without redesigning their game which is probably the last resort. I don't mind having henchmen cause they worked great in GW1 so not sure why the resistance now.

     

    I don’t see level scaling as the issue that you do OP. I personally enjoy being able to go from region to region and face foes on a relatively equal footing for a fun fight. However, I do feel some work could be done in reward scaling (particularly at the various vendors) as many people seem to need a bigger carrot to motivate them to explore outside the box. But really, risk vs reward isn’t the only issue.

     

    I am like the designers. GW1 was fine with henchman as it was solo / co-op with pals and instanced but it would kill part of the fun in GW2. It’s one of the few recent releases that gives any feel to adventuring with others in the world rather than being just a solo story dungeon crawl. I’d like them to keep the focus on interaction with other players in the open world to win dynamic events or aid their fellows randomly. It’s a part of what makes GW2 awesome.

     

    I disagree on traveling and maps feeling artificial being a problem. As a matter of fact I think the actual map and environment design is excellent. I only have issues with mobs I want to have an issue with traveling. I just need to keep a good eye out. I have been surprised at how big some of the maps really are and how much detail is crammed into some of them. But you are starting to hit on where I think the issue is.

     

    I think the issue relates more to world design and in particular the creation of hubs and flow progression from area to area when leveling. GW1 was basically built around one massive hub that brought people together and everything flowed outward from it making it easier to get up a group or what have you. That’s not true here in GW2 and they leave you little reason to linger or opportunity to explore off the beaten story path.

     

    To correct this issue would require creating “draws” to bring players to the various regions and establish little operational hubs. This could be accomplished by making remote crafting stations there that you must use to create high end gear or modify it with skins or emblems and adding important material drops to some event bosses. Make an event tracker in each region to help players keep up with what is going on so they can be where they want to be. If they change karma rewards to add in high level items to each region it could help. These are just some examples of how it could be done but the bottom line is adding layers of usefulness and function to the regions on the map that go beyond simply leveling.

     

    None of this would require a game re-design. It could be done in one good expansion or several solid content patches.

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    Originally posted by Crazy_Stick
    Originally posted by jpnz
     

    I don’t see level scaling as the issue that you do OP. I personally enjoy being able to go from region to region and face foes on a relatively equal footing for a fun fight. However, I do feel some work could be done in reward scaling (particularly at the various vendors) as many people seem to need a bigger carrot to motivate them to explore outside the box. But really, risk vs reward isn’t the only issue.

     

    I am like the designers. GW1 was fine with henchman as it was solo / co-op with pals and instanced but it would kill part of the fun in GW2. It’s one of the few recent releases that gives any feel to adventuring with others in the world rather than being just a solo story dungeon crawl. I’d like them to keep the focus on interaction with other players in the open world to win dynamic events or aid their fellows randomly. It’s a part of what makes GW2 awesome.

     

    I disagree on traveling and maps feeling artificial being a problem. As a matter of fact I think the actual map and environment design is excellent. I only have issues with mobs I want to have an issue with traveling. I just need to keep a good eye out. I have been surprised at how big some of the maps really are and how much detail is crammed into some of them. But you are starting to hit on where I think the issue is.

     

    I think the issue relates more to world design and in particular the creation of hubs and flow progression from area to area when leveling. GW1 was basically built around one massive hub that brought people together and everything flowed outward from it making it easier to get up a group or what have you. That’s not true here in GW2 and they leave you little reason to linger or opportunity to explore off the beaten story path.

     

    To correct this issue would require creating “draws” to bring players to the various regions and establish little operational hubs. This could be accomplished by making remote crafting stations there that you must use to create high end gear or modify it with skins or emblems and adding important material drops to some event bosses. Make an event tracker in each region to help players keep up with what is going on so they can be where they want to be. If they change karma rewards to add in high level items to each region it could help. These are just some examples of how it could be done but the bottom line is adding layers of usefulness and function to the regions on the map that go beyond simply leveling.

     

    None of this would require a game re-design. It could be done in one good expansion or several solid content patches.

    Nice well thought out CONSTRUCTIVE post!!

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • TerranahTerranah Stockton, CAPosts: 3,605Member

    Regarding rewards in lower level zones, light night I was in the Sylvaran zone 1-15.  Killed a flying miniboss of some kind and got a level 80 exotic short bow: Avirdanag with a Superior Sigil of Bloodlust.  Stacks 10 power per kill to max of 25.  I was like, "Yay!"  I already have a level 80 exotic shortbow that I use so at first I was thinking maybe to auction it.  I check the auction and it's selling for 5 gold 74 silver.  I was like, "Damn!"  I was so close to selling it, but then I thought I probably wouldn't buy it myself for that price so I should just equip it.  I love it! 

     

    I am looting low level gear but also stuff 76 to 78.  Making decent money gathering/vendoring/auctioning. 

     

    I was in the zone as I attempt for 100% map completion, but seeing some nice sights, a decent number of peeps, and enjoying the views.

     

    There are barriers that keep you from going to certain areas, but there are no invisible barriers.  Even in RL, I'm sitting in a room with walls, can't walk through them.  So it's not like impediments to travel are unrealistic.  Even if I jump in the lake outside my house in RL and start swimming I will get exhaustion and have to swim back to the dock after a while.  Not to mention the water is freezing right now.

     

    The only problem I have is I haven't been doing the dungeons.  I'm seriously wishing the had a dungeon group finder.  But other than that, it's good times.

     

    The game really needs an expansion though, something to add to the feature list.

  • itgrowlsitgrowls newport news, VAPosts: 2,951Member

    Clearly you don't play the game.

    1: the real lack of rewards comes from nerfing the rewards for everything. they made it so magic find % doesn't affect the chests, chests don't scale with the level of the player, event chests no longer drop rares or exotics so why bother. Since this change has been implemented I have yet to see events like the shadow in the swamp be summoned because it's a huge fight without any reward. They just nerfed the last dragon fight rewards as well Jormag. 

    It has nothing to do with if you can stomp something in 1 hit. (oh and if you are in all exotics you actually can stomp enemies in the lower areas until about level 30 so you're argument is moot.

    2: the invisible walls thing isn't that areas have borders, it's that mobs tend to suddenly become obstructed. This is another indicator of how we know you don't play the game because you just didn't get what people were talking about. It's when you are fighting a mob on land or underwater and suddenly it becomes immune to your damage and says obstructed.

    3: Henchmen would be a great idea tho i doubt they'd use it.  The problem with people not being in the open world tho is not due to too many mobs, or having to teleport....the problem is they took a 180 from their launch design by adding a dungeon and limiting loot in the open world and further adding DR to everything stating "DR was to stop the bots" well like everything else so far their bug squashing team can't keep up and the DR doesn't work properly. Everyday we see more and more players come into the forums and complain that the DR has become permanent on their account and is account wide preventing them from getting the simplest of parts necessary to even gear alts. Anet has had mixed statements about this. Johnpeters stated they are trying to adjust it so it doesn't affect legit farmers (impossible imo they should just remove it) and one of the community managers insulted the community by ignoring 1200 post thread about the loot issues by basically saying it's everyone's imagination that they don't get rares/exotics from dragon events or from fighting veterans/champs and we should all just post again what we posted on their 1200 post thread. This aside, they added a dungeon and made that dungeon the sole means by which people receive anything worth while completely opposite of their original design and because of this everyone is just hanging out in one city called LA and spamming LFG all day, if there was a LFG tool they'd still have a lobby dungeon end game. Weird huh.

     

    It just seems to me you have no idea what the real concerns are about the game. That's the real concern that this has suddenly turned into a WoW 2.0.

  • LobotomistLobotomist ZagrebPosts: 5,055Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by fat_taddler
    Originally posted by Volkon
    Originally posted by Lobotomist

    Zone level scaling is simply not implemented in a good way.

     

    Here is what happens :

    1. You are scalled to roughly same level as content but you are still more powerful due to your equiped gear.

    - This is somehow good and would encourage players to play these zones since they are more effective in playing them ...

    However

    1. Zone rewards and item drops are same as zone level -

    - Why should player grind (play) zone that gives him less reward than another one ?

    This is  incorrect... item drops also scale to your actual level.

    Getting an item drop that you can actually use is such a remote possibility and certainly does not provide enough incentive for most high level players to spend time in the lower level zones. 

    Yeah, it's tough because if you make it give the same rewards as the top zones, people will begin farming lower zones for items. They talked about this one time and it's the reason why the drop rates are much lower in lower level zones for similar level gear.

    There you go.

    They want for people to play lower level zones. But they dont want want to reward them for doing so.

    Clueless design 101

    image

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,821Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Lobotomist
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by fat_taddler
    Originally posted by Volkon
    Originally posted by Lobotomist

    Zone level scaling is simply not implemented in a good way.

     

    Here is what happens :

    1. You are scalled to roughly same level as content but you are still more powerful due to your equiped gear.

    - This is somehow good and would encourage players to play these zones since they are more effective in playing them ...

    However

    1. Zone rewards and item drops are same as zone level -

    - Why should player grind (play) zone that gives him less reward than another one ?

    This is  incorrect... item drops also scale to your actual level.

    Getting an item drop that you can actually use is such a remote possibility and certainly does not provide enough incentive for most high level players to spend time in the lower level zones. 

    Yeah, it's tough because if you make it give the same rewards as the top zones, people will begin farming lower zones for items. They talked about this one time and it's the reason why the drop rates are much lower in lower level zones for similar level gear.

    There you go.

    They want for people to play lower level zones. But they dont want want to reward them for doing so.

    Clueless design 101

    The manin difference between playing in high level zones and playing low level zones is the materials.

    The difference in Karma/Gold/XP is minimal.

    There just needs to be more Karma options.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,501Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Lobotomist
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by fat_taddler
    Originally posted by Volkon
    Originally posted by Lobotomist

    Zone level scaling is simply not implemented in a good way.

     

    Here is what happens :

    1. You are scalled to roughly same level as content but you are still more powerful due to your equiped gear.

    - This is somehow good and would encourage players to play these zones since they are more effective in playing them ...

    However

    1. Zone rewards and item drops are same as zone level -

    - Why should player grind (play) zone that gives him less reward than another one ?

    This is  incorrect... item drops also scale to your actual level.

    Getting an item drop that you can actually use is such a remote possibility and certainly does not provide enough incentive for most high level players to spend time in the lower level zones. 

    Yeah, it's tough because if you make it give the same rewards as the top zones, people will begin farming lower zones for items. They talked about this one time and it's the reason why the drop rates are much lower in lower level zones for similar level gear.

    There you go.

    They want for people to play lower level zones. But they dont want want to reward them for doing so.

    Clueless design 101

    In my opinion, they wanted people to be able to play with their lower level friends no matter what level they were at and still feel like they were getting something out of it. I don't think their intention was ever to have a group of 80s roll out and destroy content together for awesome loot and whatnot.

     

    I don't think it's "clueless" design, but I also think that they could do a lot more to make the zones more attractive for all level ranges.

  • NadiaNadia Canonsburg, PAPosts: 11,866Member Common
    Originally posted by Lobotomist

    There you go.

    They want for people to play lower level zones. But they dont want want to reward them for doing so.

    Clueless design 101

    Originally posted by Terranah

    Regarding rewards in lower level zones, light night I was in the Sylvaran zone 1-15.  Killed a flying miniboss of some kind and got a level 80 exotic short bow: Avirdanag with a Superior Sigil of Bloodlust.  Stacks 10 power per kill to max of 25.  I was like, "Yay!"  I already have a level 80 exotic shortbow that I use so at first I was thinking maybe to auction it.  I check the auction and it's selling for 5 gold 74 silver.  I was like, "Damn!"  I was so close to selling it, but then I thought I probably wouldn't buy it myself for that price so I should just equip it.  I love it! 

    I am looting low level gear but also stuff 76 to 78.  Making decent money gathering/vendoring/auctioning.

    just saying..

  • itgrowlsitgrowls newport news, VAPosts: 2,951Member
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by Lobotomist
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by fat_taddler
    Originally posted by Volkon
    Originally posted by Lobotomist

    Zone level scaling is simply not implemented in a good way.

     

    Here is what happens :

    1. You are scalled to roughly same level as content but you are still more powerful due to your equiped gear.

    - This is somehow good and would encourage players to play these zones since they are more effective in playing them ...

    However

    1. Zone rewards and item drops are same as zone level -

    - Why should player grind (play) zone that gives him less reward than another one ?

    This is  incorrect... item drops also scale to your actual level.

    Getting an item drop that you can actually use is such a remote possibility and certainly does not provide enough incentive for most high level players to spend time in the lower level zones. 

    Yeah, it's tough because if you make it give the same rewards as the top zones, people will begin farming lower zones for items. They talked about this one time and it's the reason why the drop rates are much lower in lower level zones for similar level gear.

    There you go.

    They want for people to play lower level zones. But they dont want want to reward them for doing so.

    Clueless design 101

    In my opinion, they wanted people to be able to play with their lower level friends no matter what level they were at and still feel like they were getting something out of it. I don't think their intention was ever to have a group of 80s roll out and destroy content together for awesome loot and whatnot.

     

    I don't think it's "clueless" design, but I also think that they could do a lot more to make the zones more attractive for all level ranges.

    It actually was because of the tiered armor as reward design, because armor has stats going against their own early statements of how this game was supposed to be all cosmetic, and that lower level areas don't provide higher level rewards for higher level players they've effectively broken this design.

    for example, when trying to help friends in queensland on a level 80 full exotic toon, I can 1 shot just about everything so I can't help my friend because he has 0 chance of getting a hit on anything less then a champion.

    example of a lack of reward thing: none of the hidden or event chests in the game actually scale with the player. Do the shadow swamp boss get level 15 or below items. I know I've tried it.

    So until they change the rewards they'll be making it more boring for the high levels, and until they make the game more horizontal (adding a mentoring system at the level above the zone while in group) there will be this huge difference in damage. (because I doubt very much they'll go back to a truly horizontal game design where gear has no stats at all).

  • itgrowlsitgrowls newport news, VAPosts: 2,951Member
    Originally posted by Nadia
    Originally posted by Lobotomist

    There you go.

    They want for people to play lower level zones. But they dont want want to reward them for doing so.

    Clueless design 101

    Originally posted by Terranah

    Regarding rewards in lower level zones, light night I was in the Sylvaran zone 1-15.  Killed a flying miniboss of some kind and got a level 80 exotic short bow: Avirdanag with a Superior Sigil of Bloodlust.  Stacks 10 power per kill to max of 25.  I was like, "Yay!"  I already have a level 80 exotic shortbow that I use so at first I was thinking maybe to auction it.  I check the auction and it's selling for 5 gold 74 silver.  I was like, "Damn!"  I was so close to selling it, but then I thought I probably wouldn't buy it myself for that price so I should just equip it.  I love it! 

    I am looting low level gear but also stuff 76 to 78.  Making decent money gathering/vendoring/auctioning.

    just saying..

    Unfortunately this isn't the design I've experienced, or thousands like me. When we go to low level areas usually they don't drop anything unless it's a fluke. Go back there and try to farm these things and tell me what happens. because I can tell you right now what will happen, you'll get mostly junk, greys all in the name of taking out bots. Getting a fluke drop does not equal a great reward system. Sorry.

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