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Did ANet Paint Themselves into a Corner?

124

Comments

  • RohnRohn Saint Peters, MOPosts: 3,740Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by botrytis

    I think all new games will be this way since it seems people have become polarized about everything - it is damned if you do and damned if you don't.

     

    I would say people have more of a right to complain, if it was a sub game, but it is B2P.

     

    The payment model makes no difference.  It's an MMORPG, and should be judged accordingly.

    F2P games are also blasted for having poor longevity, and they don't cost anything to get into.

    As far as complaining, it's been that way for every game.  Some people like a game, while others don't.  The same shortcomings keep coming up, and GW2 is no different.  It does a poor job of keeping a large segment of players interested long-term.  ANet said the game would be different, and it's not.  It's actually pretty bad as far as longevity is concerned.

    Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.

  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Manchester, NHPosts: 2,931Member Uncommon

    Easy solution:

     

    Make WvW and dungeons a lot more fun.  Then make cosmetic differences for new tiers.

  • steelheartxsteelheartx Biloxi, MSPosts: 432Member Uncommon

    Not sure what could be done to keep the PvErs attention.  The class mechanics themselves would make ading any sort of end raid content almost impossible :(

     

    That being said, the game still has alot to offer, and community is still pretty good as well :)

    Looking for a family that you can game with for life? Check out Grievance at https://www.grievancegaming.org !

  • loulakiloulaki PatrasPosts: 918Member Uncommon
    it seems the OP is outdated, i think that this is already solved, they planned this middle tier but not so fast, anyway i would prefer to fix the bugs and add more weapons (hammer for engi f.e.) or adding some usefull staff (lfg feature, save skill sets, some examples.. ) rather adding new tiers, for CASUAL mmo it doesnt need more tiers !

    image

  • ScarfeScarfe londonPosts: 281Member
    I know how ANet could keep the PVE and PVP players attention; go and play GW1 for a while and reaquaint themselves with the mechanics that made that game so good. 

    currently playing: DDO, AOC, WoT, P101

  • asmkm22asmkm22 Anchorage, AKPosts: 1,788Member
    Originally posted by fiontar
     

    If you think the game play is shallow, you haven't really played the game. There is a lot of depth to the game and some professions/builds have very high skill caps. There is nothing dumbed down about the game, in fact, there is more of a learning curve for beginners here than any AAA MMO I've played since WoW. I have well over 700 hours played so far and I'm still learning new things almost daily.

    I still log in and find there is almost too much to do. I enjoy the world content with out the need for an additional carrot, but I understand why some people need the carrot and also believe that the concept of non-power related carrots is viable with proper follow through.

     

    I'm sorry, but there's nothing complex about hitting the same 4 or 5 skills on cooldown, dodging once in a while, and rolling with a massive zerg of people.  Even without the zerg aspect, there's very little meat.

    You make me like charity

  • KingJigglyKingJiggly Simpsonville, SCPosts: 777Member
    Originally posted by Alberel
    Originally posted by KingJiggly
    Originally posted by NaughtyP

    I would not have been so miffed about the gear changes if they had done things a) across the board not just one dungeon and b) at a much later date, not 3 months after release. All the early changes did was rock the boat when it simply wasn't necessary. If they had waited 6-9 months and rolled it out to all areas of the game without an annoying grind attached, I would have been far less critical.

    Agreed. However, they have stated they were wrong in doing so, and seeing they tend to go throughmand make future patches better, like karka and halloween to christmas, I have complete faith they will rectify this issue. 

    The trouble is it's a bit late for that now. The entire reason they're in the current dilemma (that the OP highlights) is because they built the game for one audience then suddenly switched to appeal to the gear treadmill crowd with the Karka patch. Rectifying the issue now is unlikely to do anything as most of the players that left over it will have moved on already.

    Well, seeing that the game is b2p, it shouldnt be too hard to get those people back (i doubt many people refunded the game...) so if they make these neccessary changes, and the community that left (which I doubt the size or amount that left) will return. Focus on making pvp replayable, adding more events and better scaling, fix scaling and add more incentive all around. 

  • KingJigglyKingJiggly Simpsonville, SCPosts: 777Member
    Originally posted by asmkm22
    Originally posted by fiontar
     

    If you think the game play is shallow, you haven't really played the game. There is a lot of depth to the game and some professions/builds have very high skill caps. There is nothing dumbed down about the game, in fact, there is more of a learning curve for beginners here than any AAA MMO I've played since WoW. I have well over 700 hours played so far and I'm still learning new things almost daily.

    I still log in and find there is almost too much to do. I enjoy the world content with out the need for an additional carrot, but I understand why some people need the carrot and also believe that the concept of non-power related carrots is viable with proper follow through.

     

    I'm sorry, but there's nothing complex about hitting the same 4 or 5 skills on cooldown, dodging once in a while, and rolling with a massive zerg of people.  Even without the zerg aspect, there's very little meat.

    The mobs need to scale better and be more varied in there attacks I agree, nut combat is incredibly fluid. What may sem like a zerg in wvw is actually more than that, you just have to take part. As a solo engineer in wvw, I often inform people where to go and how to do things, especially since our server has no wvw guilds. So yes, we will zerg there and around, but what we accomplish as a zerg is amazing. 

  • trenshodtrenshod charlotte, MIPosts: 128Member

    GW2 is a visually stunning game and was fun for awhile. Didn't have the motivation to go till 80 and most likely won't have the motivation to get back into the game. Not saying the game is bad but its not this gem that everyone makes it out to be. Unless your a PVPer I don't know what else there is to do once you get all the gear at 80. Sure there is crafting and all the toys but that is just fluff. I'll side with the OP here they either have to put out new content on a regular basis or keep people busy by adding better gear options. Adding more fluff will only cater to a small groupl of players and won't pull back those that left the game.

  • EpicentEpicent Pierre Part, LAPosts: 647Member
    Originally posted by fat_taddler

    ANet has put themselves in an interesting dilemma.   Do they continue to add new tiers of gear for PvE and PvP to give players a proverbial carrot or do they cap stats and make all gear purely cosmetic after a certain point (as originally intended).

    Seems to me that ANet is pretty much screwed either way.   On the one hand, many  GW2 purists (for lack of a better word) would be upset if ANet introduced tiered gear sets with significant stat increases.

    On the other hand, we're seeing more and more players leaving due to lack of meaningful progression once they hit 80.

     

    For those that believe stat based gear progression has no place in GW2, do you believe that ANet can continue to introduce creative and challenging PvE content based on the current item stats?   If so, at what point does the ratio of challenge vs. reward cause many players to stop trying?  

     

    For those that believe that GW2 needs meaningful gear progression based on stats, what (if anything) would set GW2 apart from games like WoW or Rift which clearly offer more in terms of end-game, gear based progression?

     

     

     

     

     

    This game isnt sub based. Let them leave and come back for the expansion.

  • VolkonVolkon Sterling, VAPosts: 3,788Member
    Originally posted by asmkm22
    Originally posted by fiontar
     

    If you think the game play is shallow, you haven't really played the game. There is a lot of depth to the game and some professions/builds have very high skill caps. There is nothing dumbed down about the game, in fact, there is more of a learning curve for beginners here than any AAA MMO I've played since WoW. I have well over 700 hours played so far and I'm still learning new things almost daily.

    I still log in and find there is almost too much to do. I enjoy the world content with out the need for an additional carrot, but I understand why some people need the carrot and also believe that the concept of non-power related carrots is viable with proper follow through.

     

    I'm sorry, but there's nothing complex about hitting the same 4 or 5 skills on cooldown, dodging once in a while, and rolling with a massive zerg of people.  Even without the zerg aspect, there's very little meat.

    Hit the skills on cooldown? That explains a lot... you have no idea what you're doing. (Yes, that's a "you're doing it wrong" comment. Basically... you're doing it wrong.

     

    I'm going to pick one of my favorite skills as an example. mesmer Focus 4. (Off hand focus, skill slot 4)  Anyone vaguely familiar with the skill knows quite obviously that you won't be hitting that skill right off cooldown... what it does is create a "line" on the ground. If you go through the line, you get a speed boost. If an enemy goes through the line they get a cripple applied. So, right there, it's clear it's a tactically used skill, not a CD based one. But... what happens when you cast Focus 4? Look at your skill bar... the skill has now changed. You have the new ability to shatter the line you've created. This has a fun effect... it pulls foes near it to the space where the line was. THIS is where the skill really becomes a tactical joy to deploy! Why... you can cast it between you and a foe and pull your foe towards you. Or... you can cast it behind a foe and use it to pull a foe away from you. Of course... pulling has one other fun-filled effect when you combine that with walls or cliffs... you can use it to yank foes off of structures. I use that in WvW a lot... pulling foes off siege weapons, off walls, over cliffs to their splattered demise... it's a blast. 

     

    Yes, that's one specific skill. However, many or most skills have multiple effects that are best used tactically and would be wasted if you were fullish enough to only burn them on CD. It could be something simple, such as mesmer Greatsword 3, which not only damages but also removes a boon when it hits foes in an area. Instead of using it off CD, hold a little and take that regen they applied to themselves away. GS2 dances between foes and allies buffing allies it hits... hold it for a moment and wait until that warrior or thief closes on the foe. They'll appreciate the stacks of might. 

     

    Oh... one last note about dodging... as a mesmer I have traited dodging as an offensive boost. I don't "dodge once in a while". I dodge often, to good effect... not to simply avoid damage.

    Oderint, dum metuant.
    image

  • CaptFabulousCaptFabulous Saugerties, NYPosts: 10Member

    Or you could just play and enjoy the game and not care what could, maybe, might happen 6 months, a year, or 2 years from now.

    I simply don't understand why people get obsessed over these stupid things. It's a game. If you derive pleasure from it, play it. If you don't, then don't. Not everything needs to be intricately analyzed and torn apart.

    Read a book. Go outside and get some sun. Go skiing or take a trip to the beach. Cause it's obvious you have way too much time on your hands.

  • eye_meye_m Notta Chance, ABPosts: 3,133Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Volkon

     

    Hit the skills on cooldown? That explains a lot... you have no idea what you're doing. (Yes, that's a "you're doing it wrong" comment. Basically... you're doing it wrong.

     

    I'm going to pick one of my favorite skills as an example. mesmer Focus 4. (Off hand focus, skill slot 4)  Anyone vaguely familiar with the skill knows quite obviously that you won't be hitting that skill right off cooldown... what it does is create a "line" on the ground. If you go through the line, you get a speed boost. If an enemy goes through the line they get a cripple applied. So, right there, it's clear it's a tactically used skill, not a CD based one. But... what happens when you cast Focus 4? Look at your skill bar... the skill has now changed. You have the new ability to shatter the line you've created. This has a fun effect... it pulls foes near it to the space where the line was. THIS is where the skill really becomes a tactical joy to deploy! Why... you can cast it between you and a foe and pull your foe towards you. Or... you can cast it behind a foe and use it to pull a foe away from you. Of course... pulling has one other fun-filled effect when you combine that with walls or cliffs... you can use it to yank foes off of structures. I use that in WvW a lot... pulling foes off siege weapons, off walls, over cliffs to their splattered demise... it's a blast. 

     

    Yes, that's one specific skill. However, many or most skills have multiple effects that are best used tactically and would be wasted if you were fullish enough to only burn them on CD. It could be something simple, such as mesmer Greatsword 3, which not only damages but also removes a boon when it hits foes in an area. Instead of using it off CD, hold a little and take that regen they applied to themselves away. GS2 dances between foes and allies buffing allies it hits... hold it for a moment and wait until that warrior or thief closes on the foe. They'll appreciate the stacks of might. 

     

    Oh... one last note about dodging... as a mesmer I have traited dodging as an offensive boost. I don't "dodge once in a while". I dodge often, to good effect... not to simply avoid damage.

    I've been wondering lately, that if a person fails to read the description on a skill, would they end up reading a thread reply telling them that they should read the skill descriptions?

     

     

    All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

    I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.

    I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

  • itgrowlsitgrowls newport news, VAPosts: 2,951Member
    Originally posted by asmkm22
    Originally posted by fiontar
     

    If you think the game play is shallow, you haven't really played the game. There is a lot of depth to the game and some professions/builds have very high skill caps. There is nothing dumbed down about the game, in fact, there is more of a learning curve for beginners here than any AAA MMO I've played since WoW. I have well over 700 hours played so far and I'm still learning new things almost daily.

    I still log in and find there is almost too much to do. I enjoy the world content with out the need for an additional carrot, but I understand why some people need the carrot and also believe that the concept of non-power related carrots is viable with proper follow through.

     

    I'm sorry, but there's nothing complex about hitting the same 4 or 5 skills on cooldown, dodging once in a while, and rolling with a massive zerg of people.  Even without the zerg aspect, there's very little meat.

    you've never played an engineer i can see.

  • itgrowlsitgrowls newport news, VAPosts: 2,951Member
    Originally posted by Pixilated

    My Guild has given up on this game as well, and I'm

    only shooting for 100% map completion now. The same

    problem of grinding an area or dungeon a 1000 times

    over and over is still here, and for what? I like to explore,

    and this world is big but once I've seen the world and

    I have "near best" gear, what will there be to do really.....

     

    What got me was all the pvpers were talking about how horrible it was they didn't implement a pvp ganking zone, well what do they think WvW is? They do realize it's required for world map completion right? It's one of the reasons I've never completed the map on this game, I'm a pve engi. Aion tried this crap with me and I left the first month.

  • Bad.dogBad.dog Belleville, ONPosts: 1,108Member
    Originally posted by asmkm22
    Originally posted by fiontar
     

    If you think the game play is shallow, you haven't really played the game. There is a lot of depth to the game and some professions/builds have very high skill caps. There is nothing dumbed down about the game, in fact, there is more of a learning curve for beginners here than any AAA MMO I've played since WoW. I have well over 700 hours played so far and I'm still learning new things almost daily.

    I still log in and find there is almost too much to do. I enjoy the world content with out the need for an additional carrot, but I understand why some people need the carrot and also believe that the concept of non-power related carrots is viable with proper follow through.

     

    I'm sorry, but there's nothing complex about hitting the same 4 or 5 skills on cooldown, dodging once in a while, and rolling with a massive zerg of people.  Even without the zerg aspect, there's very little meat.

    I don't know I just watched a fella solo a 5 man dungeon ....seems to me he has a little more skill then average ??perhaps the fact that he appears to be hitting about 15 skills seperates him from the 4-5 skill crowd ?

  • jtcgsjtcgs New Port Richey, ILPosts: 1,777Member

    What corner?

    If they chose to go with teir based gear, they will target that type of player...

    if they chose not to go with it and stick to their original idea, they will target that kind of player...

    Just remember this, GW1 was the second highest population MMORPG next to only WoW. There is no short supply of either type of player and they will do fine with which ever they choose.

    The worst thing they could do is attempt to satisfy everyone which is just plain not possible.

    “I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  • IPolygonIPolygon ViennaPosts: 707Member Uncommon
    I don't think GW1 ever had the highest population (meaning the highest concurrent players) after WoW. It had that something though, which GW2 is imo missing. That is a soul. ANet needs to decide what they want their game to be as soon as possible or they will lose a variety of players.
  • itgrowlsitgrowls newport news, VAPosts: 2,951Member
    Originally posted by IPolygon
    I don't think GW1 ever had the highest population (meaning the highest concurrent players) after WoW. It had that something though, which GW2 is imo missing. That is a soul. ANet needs to decide what they want their game to be as soon as possible or they will lose a variety of players.
    I agree. Unless they return horizontal progress (much as it was), returning the rewards to open world to keep players in every zone, and stop harming the legit farmers with DR they'll have a permanent loss of players imo.
  • NobleNerdNobleNerd Wolcott, NYPosts: 671Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by KingJiggly
    Originally posted by boxsnd
    Why does progression have to be item based? It's the most boring type of progression. Why not make it skill based like DAoC? It makes sense: The more experienced you are, the more skills you get, the harder it is to play. But if you are skilled enough you can get very powerful.

    How bout we literaly make it skill based? Introduce huge pve maps that act as giant dungeons. The farther in, the harder it is. That would be really interesting.

    That would be the best thing going if they wake up over at Anet or any other MMO team and take the chance on it. I am sick of gear grinds!!! I am sick of running through the same dungeons and killing the same bosses over and over and over again for better loot!!!! STOP THE MADNESS please! Someone come out swinging with something new when it comes to the proverbial "end game" concept of MMOs. I am sure ther are multitudes out there that desire something more than new bling to flaunt for a few weeks.

    image

  • Lovely_LalyLovely_Laly genevaPosts: 734Member

    suicidal MMO, IMO.

    I guess soon we'll have only very occasional players, who will coming most at weekend.

    I keep this game as "in case" and "when nothing else".

    try before buy, even if it's a game to avoid bad surprises.
    Worst surprises for me: Aion, GW2

  • KingJigglyKingJiggly Simpsonville, SCPosts: 777Member
    Originally posted by Xepo
    Originally posted by KingJiggly
    Originally posted by boxsnd
    Why does progression have to be item based? It's the most boring type of progression. Why not make it skill based like DAoC? It makes sense: The more experienced you are, the more skills you get, the harder it is to play. But if you are skilled enough you can get very powerful.

    How bout we literaly make it skill based? Introduce huge pve maps that act as giant dungeons. The farther in, the harder it is. That would be really interesting.

    That would be the best thing going if they wake up over at Anet or any other MMO team and take the chance on it. I am sick of gear grinds!!! I am sick of running through the same dungeons and killing the same bosses over and over and over again for better loot!!!! STOP THE MADNESS please! Someone come out swinging with something new when it comes to the proverbial "end game" concept of MMOs. I am sure ther are multitudes out there that desire something more than new bling to flaunt for a few weeks.

    I like my ideas as well, thank you lol. 

  • LIOKILIOKI Igloo, ABPosts: 175Member
    Originally posted by KingJiggly
    Originally posted by Xepo
    Originally posted by KingJiggly
    Originally posted by boxsnd
    Why does progression have to be item based? It's the most boring type of progression. Why not make it skill based like DAoC? It makes sense: The more experienced you are, the more skills you get, the harder it is to play. But if you are skilled enough you can get very powerful.

    How bout we literaly make it skill based? Introduce huge pve maps that act as giant dungeons. The farther in, the harder it is. That would be really interesting.

    That would be the best thing going if they wake up over at Anet or any other MMO team and take the chance on it. I am sick of gear grinds!!! I am sick of running through the same dungeons and killing the same bosses over and over and over again for better loot!!!! STOP THE MADNESS please! Someone come out swinging with something new when it comes to the proverbial "end game" concept of MMOs. I am sure ther are multitudes out there that desire something more than new bling to flaunt for a few weeks.

    I like my ideas as well, thank you lol. 

    uhhhh wouldn't that be robbing paul to pay peter? Lets not grind for gear...lets grind for skills!!!! No wait its better! instead of grinding gear you grinds skillz, then you use your skills instead of gear to bash monsters so you can progress to the next level of skills. It's totally different!!!

    There is nothing different. You honestly believe that in all the years MMO games have been around absolutley nobody has thought there has to be a better way and attempted to create it? It's akin to the same insanity as asking someone to make a FPS really awesome but exclude the guns, and bombs, and knives......

    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

  • greenreengreenreen Punchoo, AKPosts: 2,101Member Uncommon

    Nah, they didn't paint themselves into a corner. They said that they will have vertical progression since the incident. The people that didn't like that probably already left. I was one of them. That's what all the stink was about. They said they don't make grindy games then they made a grind. It was a change of philosophy from what they said at the start.

     

    Apparently they are allowed to change their mind whenever they want. They aren't the first game to do it. They are just the first game with the fan support I saw getting away with it. That was what first got me watching the game was all the fans saying things like - these guys are gamers and they do what they say they will, they proved it to us in their first game. We didn't get gear in expansions etc.  I've even seen some of them say they feel betrayed and the game didn't turn out like it's related to GW1 at all so a few of them are taking it badly. Others though just say, well, I guess it's just different now, I'll stick around because I have so much time invested in the lore.

     

    Even when I watched the developers cast on twitch they only talked about PVP, they never sold the PVE side and always made it seem like something that was a rite of passage just to get to PVP. On release, the game is very PVE, daily, weekly, monthly PVE tasks. I never knew that because they never talked about it. They really acted like the end-game was about PVP, not chasing gear in dungeons. 

     

    The people that stuck around said they want it so they accept vertical progression.  They won't be shocked when it hits, they have been told it's coming. I don't think many people will be phased unless they have just ignored this set of gear thinking it was too incremental to matter. Those people will have their rude awakening 2 or 3 sets of gear later. At some point they will have to keep up or face criticism or the inability to keep up with creatures or pvp.

     

     

  • KingJigglyKingJiggly Simpsonville, SCPosts: 777Member
    Originally posted by LIOKI
    Originally posted by KingJiggly
    Originally posted by Xepo
    Originally posted by KingJiggly
    Originally posted by boxsnd
    Why does progression have to be item based? It's the most boring type of progression. Why not make it skill based like DAoC? It makes sense: The more experienced you are, the more skills you get, the harder it is to play. But if you are skilled enough you can get very powerful.

    How bout we literaly make it skill based? Introduce huge pve maps that act as giant dungeons. The farther in, the harder it is. That would be really interesting.

    That would be the best thing going if they wake up over at Anet or any other MMO team and take the chance on it. I am sick of gear grinds!!! I am sick of running through the same dungeons and killing the same bosses over and over and over again for better loot!!!! STOP THE MADNESS please! Someone come out swinging with something new when it comes to the proverbial "end game" concept of MMOs. I am sure ther are multitudes out there that desire something more than new bling to flaunt for a few weeks.

    I like my ideas as well, thank you lol. 

    uhhhh wouldn't that be robbing paul to pay peter? Lets not grind for gear...lets grind for skills!!!! No wait its better! instead of grinding gear you grinds skillz, then you use your skills instead of gear to bash monsters so you can progress to the next level of skills. It's totally different!!!

    There is nothing different. You honestly believe that in all the years MMO games have been around absolutley nobody has thought there has to be a better way and attempted to create it? It's akin to the same insanity as asking someone to make a FPS really awesome but exclude the guns, and bombs, and knives......

    Excuse me but this is what I meant (what I said earlier in thread)

    "One can bring it back. I propose the making of a rather larger map, that changes completely based on des. It can be a mix of underground and ground level. It will be filled with hidden passage ways no one may ever notice till well a year later. As one goes into the ground, there will be creature of Primordius to fight you and hidden acient cities o discover and protect. Deeper and deeper the adventureres will go, with greater rewards and epic story lines. To prevent zergs, rockslides and rockfalls can split to larfe of groups ib half and even kill. No way points will be around to respawn. It will require real skill to make it down and down and down, and real adventurers will have to communicate as they go through traps And puzzles. Some zones will even have random pvp moments, where groups can kill each other suddenly should they wish for loot. Bosses and fights with storylines shall encompass most of it though."

    So yeah. Sorry If you misunderstood me :P

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