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Did ANet Paint Themselves into a Corner?

135

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  • KingJigglyKingJiggly Simpsonville, SCPosts: 777Member
    Originally posted by NaughtyP

    I would not have been so miffed about the gear changes if they had done things a) across the board not just one dungeon and b) at a much later date, not 3 months after release. All the early changes did was rock the boat when it simply wasn't necessary. If they had waited 6-9 months and rolled it out to all areas of the game without an annoying grind attached, I would have been far less critical.

    Agreed. However, they have stated they were wrong in doing so, and seeing they tend to go throughmand make future patches better, like karka and halloween to christmas, I have complete faith they will rectify this issue. 

  • asmkm22asmkm22 Anchorage, AKPosts: 1,788Member
    Originally posted by fiontar

    Alternative "carrots", like skins, prestige items, titles, guild halls and advanced guild unlocks, etc... can work in place of a gear stat treadmill. The problem currently with Arenanet and GW2 is that they dropped the ball on the alternative rewards.

    There have been no new skins since launch. Titles are sparse. Guild halls and other guild objectives worth working towards over the long term are missing. Also, Karma is a great alternative currency, but once you get your exotic stat gear, there is nothing worth buying with that karma you keep accumulating. Why no multi-tier, karma exclusive skins? Mini pets? Prestige items?

    The concept of an MMO based on an alternative to the end game stat grind is a good one. Arenanet just needs to greatly increase the depth and bredth of alternative "end game" rewards for players and guilds to earn.

    Alternative end-game rewards mean very little when the underlying gameplay is so incredibly shallow.  Gamers like complexity, and I have no idea why so many companies are dumbing down their games to the point of boredom.  Maybe they're just hoping to widen the target audience or something, who knows.  What I do know is that ANET isn't going to turn the boat around just by adding in more skins.

    You make me like charity

  • AlberelAlberel LondonPosts: 1,121Member
    Originally posted by KingJiggly
    Originally posted by NaughtyP

    I would not have been so miffed about the gear changes if they had done things a) across the board not just one dungeon and b) at a much later date, not 3 months after release. All the early changes did was rock the boat when it simply wasn't necessary. If they had waited 6-9 months and rolled it out to all areas of the game without an annoying grind attached, I would have been far less critical.

    Agreed. However, they have stated they were wrong in doing so, and seeing they tend to go throughmand make future patches better, like karka and halloween to christmas, I have complete faith they will rectify this issue. 

    The trouble is it's a bit late for that now. The entire reason they're in the current dilemma (that the OP highlights) is because they built the game for one audience then suddenly switched to appeal to the gear treadmill crowd with the Karka patch. Rectifying the issue now is unlikely to do anything as most of the players that left over it will have moved on already.

  • fiontarfiontar Dana, MAPosts: 3,719Member
    Originally posted by asmkm22
    Originally posted by fiontar

    Alternative "carrots", like skins, prestige items, titles, guild halls and advanced guild unlocks, etc... can work in place of a gear stat treadmill. The problem currently with Arenanet and GW2 is that they dropped the ball on the alternative rewards.

    There have been no new skins since launch. Titles are sparse. Guild halls and other guild objectives worth working towards over the long term are missing. Also, Karma is a great alternative currency, but once you get your exotic stat gear, there is nothing worth buying with that karma you keep accumulating. Why no multi-tier, karma exclusive skins? Mini pets? Prestige items?

    The concept of an MMO based on an alternative to the end game stat grind is a good one. Arenanet just needs to greatly increase the depth and bredth of alternative "end game" rewards for players and guilds to earn.

    Alternative end-game rewards mean very little when the underlying gameplay is so incredibly shallow.  Gamers like complexity, and I have no idea why so many companies are dumbing down their games to the point of boredom.  Maybe they're just hoping to widen the target audience or something, who knows.  What I do know is that ANET isn't going to turn the boat around just by adding in more skins.

    If you think the game play is shallow, you haven't really played the game. There is a lot of depth to the game and some professions/builds have very high skill caps. There is nothing dumbed down about the game, in fact, there is more of a learning curve for beginners here than any AAA MMO I've played since WoW. I have well over 700 hours played so far and I'm still learning new things almost daily.

    I still log in and find there is almost too much to do. I enjoy the world content with out the need for an additional carrot, but I understand why some people need the carrot and also believe that the concept of non-power related carrots is viable with proper follow through.

     

    Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
    image

  • LizardoneLizardone baltimore, MDPosts: 93Member
    reality check: GW2 has become another gear grinder for those who follows the carrot; I don't though; I have two level 80 toons, completed the storyline quest for both and parked them in front of the portal to W v W; next time I hear about a special event I will jump in for fun, but not for farming; I hope ANet revamp W v W.
  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member

    I never saw any potential for unlimited longevity in the PvE side of things. It isnt possible without the carrot, although I usually tire quickly of that treadmill too.

    They should be focusing more on PvP. Thats where the real retention is. Its where the real retention was in the first game as well. I always went back to GW1 for PvP, because MMO PvP in general sucks, hoping they polish GW2 up to the level of PvP that we had in GW1.

  • KalestonKaleston TrinecPosts: 173Member

    I think people need to understand, GW2 is not meant to be WoW. It's not meant to be for everyone. It's meant to be for people that like very equal PvP (in terms of it doesn't matter if you are no lifer student that can play 24/7 to get better gear or just casual player that like to jump into PvP and have fair chance).

    In my opinion the worst thing MMO can do is to try to catter to everyone... That just doesn't work. GW2 wants to go horizontal nongrind progression, and that's fine, I think there are many people out there that will happily accept such concept. If they add more meaning to WvW and possibly upgrade sPvP, there will be still many people that will buy expansions. Also PvE content is really nice even without said carrot on a stick.

    The last thing, GW2 is not subscription game. They don't really need people to play it 24/7, they don't need to "force" them to play as much as possible. I'm quite sure many people will be happy to pay just for the fact there is no carrot in game that is very polished in other aspects.

  • RedJorgeRedJorge LisbonPosts: 106Member

    The only end-game content that could be worth are sPvP and WvWvW. The problem is sPvP is dead and WvWvW has no rewards. So, basically GW2 has no interest after achieving level 80.

    The game has good potential but the actual ArenaNet Management team is hopeless. They just have no clue...

    Transforming GW2 in Sims Online/Guitar Hero/Super Mario jumping puzzles just speaks for itself.

    Leonard: Penny, you are on fire.
    Penny: Yes, so is Sheldon.
    [laughs]
    Sheldon: Okay, that's it. I don't know how, but she is cheating. No-one can be that attractive and this skilled at a video game.
    [walks away]
    Penny: Wait, wait. Sheldon. Come back, you forgot something.
    Sheldon: What?
    Penny: This plasma grenade.
    [explosion]
    Penny: [laughs] Look! It's raining you.
    Sheldon: You laugh now. You just wait until you need tech support. (Big Bang Theory)

  • DjildjameshDjildjamesh maasdijkPosts: 406Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ezhae

    Okay, as someone who played GW2 a lot over last months I think, dear OP, you missed the point. 

     

    The issue is not in lack of meaningful progression. Most people that waited for GW2 didn't care for that at all. The problem is that the vertical aka cosmetic progressionis currently built around TP. How so? Well let's take an "average" fancy skin, usually obtained through mystic forge recipe. What does such recipe tend to include? Well 250 ectos and some lodestones (usually 100 or 150). Some others are even more expensive requiring gifts that on their own need 250 lodestones.

    Now. Lodestones are pain to get. They drop rarely and there is only few creatures that have a chance for the lodestone you want around. What it means, to get them yourself you'd have to spend countless hours killing single type of mob in single place. Alternative? Pay 1-2 gold per lodestone on TP. 

    Ectos ont he other hand come from salvaging, around 0.9 ecto per rare salvaged. Sound fair. Problem? Other than trading dungeon tokens for rares, the ways of obtaining them are again based purely on luck and low drop rates. Unreliable, grindy, etc. 

    Conculision? It's simply not fun to aim for any of those aesthetic goals because by commiting yourself to it you force yourself to grind day after day after day, either for materials or gold to buy them. 

     

    So what actually is wrong? Well, the thing that's wrong is that loot doesn't feel rewarding in itself in the game. Big meta event chests, like form killing dragons in most cases give you just bunch of worthless blues with total value around 5 silver. That's not worth the effort/time to do the event really since just farming some chains in cursed shore gives about same/better results. Same time, if you look back to GW1 you had plenty of bosses that had their own unique drop tables and could give you a fancy looking item. In GW2 you are pushed towards playing TP more than the game itself to reach any of the vertical progression goals because in it's current state the game is built around need for gold. 

     

    Bottom line: Looting is not exciting because you don't get anything fun from it. You just get vendor junk. Nothing nice looking, nothing worth much. Instead having that feeling of "Yea! Nice weapon/armor!" it's mor elike "Right... that's 3.50 silver more, I still need 240 gold..."

     

    How to fix? Make loot fun. Make more challenging content that has actual rewards. Give me reasons, as player, to actually bother with doing those meta events other than simply "it's for fun". If a game doesn't feel rewarding in at least some aspect it has a serious flaw. At least in PvP i can get satisfaction from winning.

    I think many people missed this post or something coz noones replied to it.

    But this man/woman speaks the truth. Looting is gw2 is shit and was 10x better in gw1. I love the game, but the dropped the ball here.

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,818Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Djildjamesh

    I think many people missed this post or something coz noones replied to it.

    But this man/woman speaks the truth. Looting is gw2 is shit and was 10x better in gw1. I love the game, but the dropped the ball here.

    What?

    In Prophecies and Factions most crap was actually merch fodder since you couldn't change the stats.

    People just like to claim BS but that don't fly with people that actually know the games.

    In fact ins most games most gear is merch fodder.

     

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member

    Doesn't every company have this dilemma? It comes down to who you want to please.

    My money is on constant gear progression, since that is where the bigger money is at. It seems most players want the constant gear grind in order to log in.

    Will A-Net sell out? We will see :)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    Doesn't every company have this dilemma? It comes down to who you want to please.

    My money is on constant gear progression, since that is where the bigger money is at. It seems most players want the constant gear grind in order to log in.

    Will A-Net sell out? We will see :)

    ANet said GW2 will have a gear grind. It will be a 'slight slope' but it will be there.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • dimnikardimnikar ZanistanvillePosts: 271Member
    Originally posted by dariuszp

    I don't understand you people. I see no reason in playing gear based MMO. Why ? Because there is no sense. Repeat same contaent over and over to get new pair underwear so you can do same thing somewhere else for the sake of new pair of underwear ?

    WTF people ? This is why themeparks MMO never last. Guild Wars 2 maybe is not a sandbox MMO but sure it's fun to play while I can't stand games like TOR, WoW and other sh**.

    I think they should go horizontal in progression. New pair of underwear that have not so different stats but unique look. Throw it around the world + more for hard challenges etc. Add "secret receipes" for crafters and stuff like that. It's like when I go to the shop. I don't want shirt that every single idiot have because it's "new trend". I want dam shirt that no one else have.

    So... "repeat same content over and over"  but for  different LOOKING gear, as opposed to gear with different STATS (aka, the staple of the RPG genre).

    You're just not all there, that's all there's to it O.o

  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,645Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by botrytis

    I think all new games will be this way since it seems people have become polarized about everything - it is damned if you do and damned if you don't.

     

    I would say people have more of a right to complain, if it was a sub game, but it is B2P.

     

    Then they should be damned at least sticking to their original vision and having faith in their core concepts.

    Selling the game as one thing and then switching to another to appeal to the broadest market will cost them a lot of trust in the long run with their core fans.

    It's the perfect way to ruin their brand tbh.

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,818Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by dimnikar
    Originally posted by dariuszp

    I don't understand you people. I see no reason in playing gear based MMO. Why ? Because there is no sense. Repeat same contaent over and over to get new pair underwear so you can do same thing somewhere else for the sake of new pair of underwear ?

    WTF people ? This is why themeparks MMO never last. Guild Wars 2 maybe is not a sandbox MMO but sure it's fun to play while I can't stand games like TOR, WoW and other sh**.

    I think they should go horizontal in progression. New pair of underwear that have not so different stats but unique look. Throw it around the world + more for hard challenges etc. Add "secret receipes" for crafters and stuff like that. It's like when I go to the shop. I don't want shirt that every single idiot have because it's "new trend". I want dam shirt that no one else have.

    So... "repeat same content over and over"  but for  different LOOKING gear, as opposed to gear with different STATS (aka, the staple of the RPG genre).

    You're just not all there, that's all there's to it O.o

    You repeat the content because you have fun doing it.

    Repeating for looks or for stats if it isn't fun is still the same trap.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member
    Originally posted by Vesavius
     

     

    Then they should be damned at least sticking to their original vision and having faith in their core concepts.

    Selling the game as one thing and then switching to another to appeal to the broadest market will cost them a lot of trust in the long run with their core fans.

    It's the perfect way to ruin their brand tbh.

    ANet didn't 'switch' technically, least from their point of view.

     

    This is a direct quote from ANet in the reddit AMA by Mike O'Brien

    "Some progression is OK, but pushing players onto a gear treadmill isn't OK and isn't what the game is about. I don't think [the ascended gear] invalidates the fundamental concept that GW2 can have gradual stat progression without being a gear treadmill game."

    Sounds too much of a 'have my cake and eat it too' for me but we'll see.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,919Member Uncommon

    The bigger picture I see is that GW2 positioned itself as a game for people who have been playing PVE MMORPGs for years, and who were tired of the same-old same-old mechanics of holy trinity combat and quest hub hopping.  They did this by changing the combat and pushing dynamic events as PVE content.  B2P monetization certainly didn't hurt this any.

     

    I think where it backfired on ArenaNet is that these players both like and expect a gear treadmill as a reason for continued PVE.

     

    Good, bad or otherwise, it's now down to a conflict of interest.  Hold true to cosmetic only progression (possibly with very minor stat gains) or open up new gear with new content as a means to achieve it.

     


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
  • HappyFaceHappyFace nahman, MIPosts: 27Member

    I didn't know having stats progression = harder raids/meaningful PvE. If anything, stat progression is just a cheap way to increase longevity of the game.

     

    WoW, RIFT, etc, all have stat progression for the raids but I'm sure 9/10 of you could name 5 easy 'top-tier' raids as quickly as they could name 5 hot girls (or guys... I dont judge) they want to bang.

     

    Harder PvE = harder mechanics. it's as simple as that. And meangingful PvE could come purely off completing a difficult boss - not from the loot that drops. I like what GW2 does, really, and can do. If they handle this properly, PvE'rs will have the thoughts of completing PvE because its difficult and fun to do - not because of their .0256 higher attack rating to crit for 3000, when originally they crit for 2995.

     

    And don't underestimate the power of cosmetic/show off things. Achievements pretty much proved that players will do stupid things to get something to show theyre better than someone else.  

    "This hand of mine glows with an awesome power....."

  • FusionFusion VaasaPosts: 1,391Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by dariuszp

    I don't understand you people. I see no reason in playing gear based MMO. Why ? Because there is no sense. Repeat same contaent over and over to get new pair underwear so you can do same thing somewhere else for the sake of new pair of underwear ?

    WTF people ? This is why themeparks MMO never last. Guild Wars 2 maybe is not a sandbox MMO but sure it's fun to play while I can't stand games like TOR, WoW and other sh**.

    I think they should go horizontal in progression. New pair of underwear that have not so different stats but unique look. Throw it around the world + more for hard challenges etc. Add "secret receipes" for crafters and stuff like that. It's like when I go to the shop. I don't want shirt that every single idiot have because it's "new trend". I want dam shirt that no one else have.

    Once you have max level and best possible gear statwise, what do you enjoy in the game?

    WvW is meaningless, sPVP is shit, PVE (repeating itself by either dungeons or events) with no meaningful rewards? Themepark with no gear-progression (or any progression at all) is even worse than your average Themepark WITH gear-progression/grind, atleast they have a "goal" which is better gear.

    "More challenging PVE is reward enough" .. why would i do something for nothing, when i can go play a game that "rewards" my efforts, if i wan't challenging PVE i play Dark Souls and even it rewards my efforts.

     

    Clocked some 400hrs in GW2, atleast 50 of those were spent in LA (in full dungeon set i wanted + weapons i wanted) doing nothing, wondering "what now?" .. there simply was nothing more to "achieve".

    inb4 "legendary" .. i dont want them, i don't need them.

     

    And i never spent a dime on the gem-shop, i leave that digital fluff to those who're foolish enough.

     

     

    To answer OP, i think they did so.. they can go either way, but if they go BOTH ways, i don't think the "GW-crowd" will be pleased, if they go the "non-stat-grind" way, they'll probably lose alot of customers. Either way, they'll lose customers.

    Currently playing: -

    Waiting for: Class4.

    Dead and Buried: ESO, NWO, GW2, SWTOR, Darkfall, AO, AC2, Vanguard, CoH/V, EnB, EVE, Neocron, FE, EQ, EQ2, DAoC, FFXI, FFXIV, SWG, WoW, and billions of eastern junks!

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon

    It's possible. The biggest issue w/ GW2 (aside from the exploits), is that they tried to pander to 2 very different crowds at the same time. As a result the game gets kinda confused in certain mechanics.

    When you get down to it, the game is mostly skill-based, with an emphasis on horizontal / cosmetic progression. However, some of the design implementations make it behave more like a linear progression system (ie. the whole lvling system, traits, dungeons). This was something they didn't do in GW1, but re-introduced with GW2.

    As a result, it'll be interesting to see what they do going forward.

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,818Member Uncommon

    So you guys play games exclusively for the item rewards?

    What do those items rewards mean you finally stop playing the game?

    Or maybe that is why players keep paying $15 per month for years after they don't derive fun from the game cause otherwise it would mean all that time played was wasted?

    What a vicious cycle.

    Are the MMORPGers just a bunch of collector addicts and not actual gamers?

    "This is boring. Oh wait they give a shiny horse at the end of this boring thing. Lets do it ad infinitum until I get the shiny horse".

    "This is fun but no shiny horse, lets go back to do the boring stuff cause of the shiny horse".

    Sigh.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • DeniZgDeniZg ZagrebPosts: 669Member Uncommon

    Personally, I don't mind vertical progression, but in PVE only. I feel that more content should be available to the ones who invest the more time, effort or skill. It might create elitism, but it will keep people interested and playing. I think that's what made old MMOS  popular and ceased to exist in this genre with e.g. WOW's WoTLK expansion (using WoW for reference).

    PVP wise,  I believe that most of us would like to PVP on level playing field BUT to progress our character at the same time.

    I think this is where Anet failed. PVE content availalable to everyone (except maybe Arah) and no rewards for PVP, but at the same time gear dependancy in WvW PVP?

    I wonder, why didn't Anet do the following:

    1. Normalized gear in sPVP and WvW, with PVE experience gain in sPVP and more WvW rewards
    2. Gated high-level content either through quest completion, player skill and/or availability (think of WoW Gates of Ahn'Qiraj)

     

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

    So you guys play games exclusively for the item rewards?

    What do those items rewards mean you finally stop playing the game?

    Or maybe that is why players keep paying $15 per month for years after they don't derive fun from the game cause otherwise it would mean all that time played was wasted?

    What a vicious cycle.

    Are the MMORPGers just a bunch of collector addicts and not actual gamers?

    "This is boring. Oh wait they give a shiny horse at the end of this boring thing. Lets do it ad infinitum until I get the shiny horse".

    "This is fun but no shiny horse, lets go back to do the boring stuff cause of the shiny horse".

    Sigh.

    Don't blame the players when ANet decided to put in a gear grind into GW2.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • RaekonRaekon AugsburgPosts: 553Member
    Originally posted by jpnz
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

    So you guys play games exclusively for the item rewards?

    What do those items rewards mean you finally stop playing the game?

    Or maybe that is why players keep paying $15 per month for years after they don't derive fun from the game cause otherwise it would mean all that time played was wasted?

    What a vicious cycle.

    Are the MMORPGers just a bunch of collector addicts and not actual gamers?

    "This is boring. Oh wait they give a shiny horse at the end of this boring thing. Lets do it ad infinitum until I get the shiny horse".

    "This is fun but no shiny horse, lets go back to do the boring stuff cause of the shiny horse".

    Sigh.

    Don't blame the players when ANet decided to put in a gear grind into GW2.

    He actually CAN blame the players cause ANet decided to add OPTIONAL COSMETIC "gear grind" and even these can be achieved through at least 3 different ways instead of repeating the same one.

    - Karma

    - Crafting

    - Dungeons

    Other mmos have you doing indeed the same thing only so you can be powerful enough to enter a newer area or be competitive enough with survivalability at all.

    I have a level 80, doing my dailies with my lowbies to level them, doing some WvsWvsW, sometimes helping with dungeons or doing a fractals run and overly enjoying the game in a casual way, waiting for the January update.

  • TorgrimTorgrim GothenburgPosts: 2,088Member
    Originally posted by LetsPlayOutside
    I too am curious what Anet is going to do to hold peoples attention.....

     

    Dosen't matter what they will do, there will always be whiners in whatever Anet is putting into GW2.

    If it's not broken, you are not innovating.

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