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Did ANet Paint Themselves into a Corner?

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  • FearumFearum Cinnaminson, NJPosts: 1,166Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by Ginaz
    Originally posted by botrytis

    I think all new games will be this way since it seems people have become polarized about everything - it is damned if you do and damned if you don't.

     

    I would say people have more of a right to complain, if it was a sub game, but it is B2P.

    What?  If people paid money for the game, then they have every right to complain if the it isnt going in the direction they want.

    If it is a vocal minority versus a silent majority - then what would you do?  Right now this looks like the situation that is going on. If a person got 1000 hours out of GW2 for the price - can you get the same amount out of Skyrim which was the same price?

    I got more out of GW2 with about 800 hours to Skyrim's 80 hours.

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,279Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kuppa
    Originally posted by bcbully
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by Ginaz
    Originally posted by botrytis

    I think all new games will be this way since it seems people have become polarized about everything - it is damned if you do and damned if you don't.

     

    I would say people have more of a right to complain, if it was a sub game, but it is B2P.

    What?  If people paid money for the game, then they have every right to complain if the it isnt going in the direction they want.

    If it is a vocal minority versus a silent majority - then what would you do?  Right now this looks like the situation that is going on. If a person got 1000 hours out of GW2 for the price - can you get the same amount out of Skyrim which was the same price?

    Why is GW2 be compared to skyrim, and not WoW or EVE?

    Payment model.

    imagedamn you kuppa!

  • TerranahTerranah Stockton, CAPosts: 3,605Member

    To me, gear progression doesn't keep me playing beyond end game.  It's just chasing a mirage in a desert.  I would like new features added to the game.  For example... 

     

    Housing and furnishing, if done right could add a lot to the game.

     

    A new feature, like boats, could add a new element of exploration.  Same with flying and/or mounts.

     

    New lands.  The end game ones rignt now are kinda meh.  Add to the world, expanding on the three realms they already have, sea, land and air. 

     

    New armor and clothes.  We need the artists to either put on their creative hats or get some fresh blood in there, someone who can give us something new and not rehashed.  Right now this is where I feel the most 'stale' in my gameplay.  I'd love to be able to mix and match and really customize my appearance a lot more. 

     

    New professions.  I don't know, maybe fishing, maybe hunting.  Not only are you looking for these creatures, but you can create pets or trophies for sale if you want to add a crafting aspect. 

     

    Collections.  From crafting, from gathering and hunting and everywhere and everything in the game.  Make it so the collections can be put together to make something or gives you a new title or you can display it in your house.  My OCD likes collections.

     

    There's a lot of things that can be done, I just listed a few.  Gear grind is so themepark, so been there done that. 

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    Originally posted by bcbully
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by Ginaz
    Originally posted by botrytis

    I think all new games will be this way since it seems people have become polarized about everything - it is damned if you do and damned if you don't.

     

    I would say people have more of a right to complain, if it was a sub game, but it is B2P.

    What?  If people paid money for the game, then they have every right to complain if the it isnt going in the direction they want.

    If it is a vocal minority versus a silent majority - then what would you do?  Right now this looks like the situation that is going on. If a person got 1000 hours out of GW2 for the price - can you get the same amount out of Skyrim which was the same price?

    Why is GW2 be compared to skyrim, and not WoW or EVE?

    Simply because the others are sub games and Skyrim is B2P like GW2.

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • FlawSGIFlawSGI Woodstock, GAPosts: 1,379Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by dariuszp

    I don't understand you people. I see no reason in playing gear based MMO. Why ? Because there is no sense. Repeat same contaent over and over to get new pair underwear so you can do same thing somewhere else for the sake of new pair of underwear ?

    WTF people ? This is why themeparks MMO never last. Guild Wars 2 maybe is not a sandbox MMO but sure it's fun to play while I can't stand games like TOR, WoW and other sh**.

    I think they should go horizontal in progression. New pair of underwear that have not so different stats but unique look. Throw it around the world + more for hard challenges etc. Add "secret receipes" for crafters and stuff like that. It's like when I go to the shop. I don't want shirt that every single idiot have because it's "new trend". I want dam shirt that no one else have.

    Makes sense don't it? I do agree that Anet is in a strange position on this one because they are going to piss off customers no matter which direction they go.  I agree with the poster above in his evaluation and understanding of the limitations of themeparks. Some people just seem to expect all MMO's to be a second life though so /shrug.

    RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.

  • meddyckmeddyck Athens, GAPosts: 1,140Member Uncommon

    The big problem with Ascended and future gear tiers for me is they will become required for WvW. This can easily be fixed by changing WvW to use PvP gear like sPvP and tPvP do. Then no matter how many PvE raids and instances they add with additional gear tiers, it wouldn't affect WvW players. People who are interested in PvE gear progression could grind Fractals and their eventual replacements to their hearts' content or not as they choose.

    WvW is pretty lackluster right now anyway. Once they started adding new gear progression, I completely lost interest in it and the game. So they need to undo that and make a number of other changes to make WvW more enjoyable to get me and many other players who got the game hoping it would be the next best thing to DAOC 2 to start playing again.

    Camelot Unchained Backer
    DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  • FlawSGIFlawSGI Woodstock, GAPosts: 1,379Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ginaz
    Originally posted by botrytis

    I think all new games will be this way since it seems people have become polarized about everything - it is damned if you do and damned if you don't.

     

    I would say people have more of a right to complain, if it was a sub game, but it is B2P.

    What?  If people paid money for the game, then they have every right to complain if the it isnt going in the direction they want.

    And how many MMO's stay the same as the day you purchased them? I payed the box price and got my value as it was. If I don't like the changes I don't buy expansions and I quit stopping by. Doesn't seem hard to me but there are those with self entitlement issues I suppose. Not saying you are one and all that but if the shoe fits........

    RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.

  • ThomasN7ThomasN7 87.18.7.148 1, NJPosts: 6,690Member
    Gear grind ? You sure this is an actual Guild Wars game ?  Being a vet for 5+ years of the original I never ever had to gear grind unless it was for the HOM reward which came much much later because fans were running out of stuff to do.
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  • gtmaster32gtmaster32 daytona, FLPosts: 24Member

    Gear progression isn't everything. Most of the people I see complain have'nt even experienced a lot of the game. One of my favorite events is Tequatl and a lot of people I've come in contact with haven't even heard of it. Jumping puzzles are great too! I like exploring the world and finding these JPs and telling my guildmates/friends about them, then we all do them together, I laugh when they fall, I fall and get pissed, then look back and laugh, good times. 

    WvW is fun, I never get bored much, we have good commanders on running things so it's fun to zerg around and roll over unsuspecting enemies. Though I can see why some people get bored, I still have a great time. 

    Dungeons on the other hand are meh for me, They are great to run once or twice, but after that I get bored with them, being it the same thing (I know there are multiple paths, but even they are similar). It would be a nice turn if they had raids, like 10/25 man, maybe not like WoW where you push and push, and the raid leaders yell at you and kick you if you aren't doing well, but just fun and challenging, which mostly relies on the players playing it, but it could be a good thing so consider.

    And back to gear, I think cosmetics are fine for now, but unless Anet is going to shove out good content with more to work for every 3 or 4 months, I see some people will start getting annoyed about the gear.

    All just my opinion, thanks for reading if you did!

    image

  • DragonantisDragonantis DublinPosts: 974Member

    I like the idea of not having tier gear, but without it players find they have no goal to shoot for, since WvW fell through as having no meaningful reason to work hard at it. The only one I saw to work for was the legendary weapons, and after you get one, you feel like you just completed the game. The game needs some sort of carrot to convince players to progress in any direction, the game can only last so long at this casual pace, even casual gamers like to have a goal to shoot for.

    I mean look at last halloween, that clocktower had a cosmetic reward and was for some very hard but they tried because it was there, I myself spend hours trying to complete it, and doing that was reward enough for me.

    Give guilds a goal, add a giant mountain with bosses from top to bottom, give them different mechanics and let the guilds have a hell of a time getting to the top, the rewards dont have to be game breaking, even cosmetics or the fact the mountain is there would be all the reason a guild would need to tackle it for months on end.

  • EvilGeekEvilGeek londonPosts: 1,226Member Uncommon

    GW's horizontal progression was skill collecting and build creating, secondary professions provided for a fantastic wealth in build diversity. GW2 offers a very limited skill set with no known future expansion for them. I can see how they've given themselves an easier time but they took away, from what a lot of people felt made the original title so great. Sure a ton of those builds might have been terrible but you had fun finding out :)

    In GW1 the top tier gear, I'm talking looks here not stats (stats equaled out as soon as you hit max level of 20), had a ridiculous grind element to them. Part of me thinks they are looking at that and thinking that's how GW2 should work, hence the low drop rates of T6 items, etc and the ridiculous grind to get them, the problem though is without the ability to build on your character in other ways, the journey through that grind gets monotonous very quickly. If they are looking at the grind for FoW and UW armour and thinking that's OK in GW2, that's a mistake IMHO. Where's the other carrots?

    Grinding for stats has been done to death, it's artificial progression, a never ending hamster wheel that was used to keep those subs rolling. Ascended gear is likely to be rolled out over months, adding pieces over time might help keep some of the stat chasers happy, they know it was a mistake to add them as they did, FOTM while being great fun shouldn't be the only way to get this gear, grinding dungeons is old hat, done to death, I expect better of Anet.

    Appeasing horizontal progression players could include a number of things, Terranah's post has some great ideas, some of them I'd echo myself. I think the biggest thing they could do to appease the horizontal crowd and I'm sure what most GW1 players would love to see is an expanding of the skill system, give it some of the depth that made GW1 such a great game. As it stands it's not the shallowest of systems but it doesn't touch the flexibility of the original.

    image
  • NobleNerdNobleNerd Wolcott, NYPosts: 671Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Terranah

    To me, gear progression doesn't keep me playing beyond end game.  It's just chasing a mirage in a desert.  I would like new features added to the game.  For example... 

     

    Housing and furnishing, if done right could add a lot to the game.

     

    A new feature, like boats, could add a new element of exploration.  Same with flying and/or mounts.

     

    New lands.  The end game ones rignt now are kinda meh.  Add to the world, expanding on the three realms they already have, sea, land and air. 

     

    New armor and clothes.  We need the artists to either put on their creative hats or get some fresh blood in there, someone who can give us something new and not rehashed.  Right now this is where I feel the most 'stale' in my gameplay.  I'd love to be able to mix and match and really customize my appearance a lot more. 

     

    New professions.  I don't know, maybe fishing, maybe hunting.  Not only are you looking for these creatures, but you can create pets or trophies for sale if you want to add a crafting aspect. 

     

    Collections.  From crafting, from gathering and hunting and everywhere and everything in the game.  Make it so the collections can be put together to make something or gives you a new title or you can display it in your house.  My OCD likes collections.

     

    There's a lot of things that can be done, I just listed a few.  Gear grind is so themepark, so been there done that. 

    Completely agree. So many times I have left WoW, Rift and other games because at the end all I felt like I was doing was grinding the same dungeons over and over and over again until I could repeat the interactions in the dungeons word for word and knew every move the bosses made with my eyes closed.... All to get get another piece of gear???? UGH!! It became painful and I would leave until a new expansion pulled me in for a few more months or more.

    image

  • GinazGinaz Calgary, ABPosts: 1,731Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by FlawSGI
    Originally posted by Ginaz
    Originally posted by botrytis

    I think all new games will be this way since it seems people have become polarized about everything - it is damned if you do and damned if you don't.

     

    I would say people have more of a right to complain, if it was a sub game, but it is B2P.

    What?  If people paid money for the game, then they have every right to complain if the it isnt going in the direction they want.

    And how many MMO's stay the same as the day you purchased them? I payed the box price and got my value as it was. If I don't like the changes I don't buy expansions and I quit stopping by. Doesn't seem hard to me but there are those with self entitlement issues I suppose. Not saying you are one and all that but if the shoe fits........

    So complaining about a service or product you're not happy with makes someone "self entitled"???  I hope you remember that the next tme your mechanic messes up your car or your waitress screws up your order.

    image

    Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?

    Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.

  • fiontarfiontar Dana, MAPosts: 3,719Member

    Alternative "carrots", like skins, prestige items, titles, guild halls and advanced guild unlocks, etc... can work in place of a gear stat treadmill. The problem currently with Arenanet and GW2 is that they dropped the ball on the alternative rewards.

    There have been no new skins since launch. Titles are sparse. Guild halls and other guild objectives worth working towards over the long term are missing. Also, Karma is a great alternative currency, but once you get your exotic stat gear, there is nothing worth buying with that karma you keep accumulating. Why no multi-tier, karma exclusive skins? Mini pets? Prestige items?

    The concept of an MMO based on an alternative to the end game stat grind is a good one. Arenanet just needs to greatly increase the depth and bredth of alternative "end game" rewards for players and guilds to earn.

    Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
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  • FlawSGIFlawSGI Woodstock, GAPosts: 1,379Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ginaz
    Originally posted by FlawSGI
    Originally posted by Ginaz
    Originally posted by botrytis

    I think all new games will be this way since it seems people have become polarized about everything - it is damned if you do and damned if you don't.

     

    I would say people have more of a right to complain, if it was a sub game, but it is B2P.

    What?  If people paid money for the game, then they have every right to complain if the it isnt going in the direction they want.

    And how many MMO's stay the same as the day you purchased them? I payed the box price and got my value as it was. If I don't like the changes I don't buy expansions and I quit stopping by. Doesn't seem hard to me but there are those with self entitlement issues I suppose. Not saying you are one and all that but if the shoe fits........

    So complaining about a service or product you're not happy with makes someone "self entitled"???  I hope you remember that the next tme your mechanic messes up your car or your waitress screws up your order.

    The comment was in direct correlation to your response to the quote, not anything deeper than that. I happen to agree that if it was sub game then compalints have more legitimacy, but it's B2P and my response was in that line of thinking. Also I was talking about the product itself and not service of it. I thought when I stated I got my value as it was then followed with my opinions reagrding product change that would have been made clear, my apologies. As for self entitlement, that follows the line of thinking that they can't please everyone and it seems like many think they are supposed to please their personal taste rather than the direction the devs want to go and it is somehow a direct insult when their voices aren't heard. I see pointing out that I didn't mean you still may have ruffled your feathers.  As to your analogies they are horrid seing as how fixing my car is on a case by case deal since hundreds of thousands of people aren't driving my car, same as a waitress getting my particular order right, they aren't taking my order for thousands of others, just me and in both cases it is supposed to be custom just for me. 

    RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.

  • KingJigglyKingJiggly Simpsonville, SCPosts: 777Member
    Originally posted by Ginaz
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by Ginaz
    Originally posted by botrytis

    I think all new games will be this way since it seems people have become polarized about everything - it is damned if you do and damned if you don't.

     

    I would say people have more of a right to complain, if it was a sub game, but it is B2P.

    What?  If people paid money for the game, then they have every right to complain if the it isnt going in the direction they want.

    If it is a vocal minority versus a silent majority - then what would you do?  Right now this looks like the situation that is going on. If a person got 1000 hours out of GW2 for the price - can you get the same amount out of Skyrim which was the same price?

    So because its only a "minority" that are complaining (though you provide no proof to back up what you are saying) that means they don't have the right to voice thier complaints?  Thats some danergous thinking.

    It is definantly the minority complaining. And minorities tend to want rather drastic changes... Nazi party, Communist Party, even the American Revolution was caused by a minority. Some good things can come out of this, as can some bad. Usually bad it seems. 

  • itgrowlsitgrowls newport news, VAPosts: 2,951Member
    Originally posted by fat_taddler

    ANet has put themselves in an interesting dilemma.   Do they continue to add new tiers of gear for PvE and PvP to give players a proverbial carrot or do they cap stats and make all gear purely cosmetic after a certain point (as originally intended).

    Seems to me that ANet is pretty much screwed either way.   On the one hand, many  GW2 purists (for lack of a better word) would be upset if ANet introduced tiered gear sets with significant stat increases.

    On the other hand, we're seeing more and more players leaving due to lack of meaningful progression once they hit 80.

     

    For those that believe stat based gear progression has no place in GW2, do you believe that ANet can continue to introduce creative and challenging PvE content based on the current item stats?   If so, at what point does the ratio of challenge vs. reward cause many players to stop trying?  

     

    For those that believe that GW2 needs meaningful gear progression based on stats, what (if anything) would set GW2 apart from games like WoW or Rift which clearly offer more in terms of end-game, gear based progression?

    As a purist I wasn't so bothered by having gear that had a tier as i was at their focus of making everything drop in dungeons. You don't just throw some gear into a single dungeon and make drops no longer drop even from dragon events in the open world and make everything drop in 1 dungeon only and expect people to continue to play normally. It just won't happen. Now people are predicting we'll need to use the mystic toilet (the new way of gambling throw some rare expensive mats in there and hope and pray to the interweb gods that it doesn't come out as some piece of crap that you can't even salvage for Ectos) instead of the utilizing the already worthless crafting disciplines that people all spent hours farming mats for to completely level. I mean it's bad enough as a chef that I can't even make a feast in this game without buying expensive mats some of which that don't make any sense (like crystals for example) and throwing them into the mystic toilet to make a feast that I can drop on the ground and share with people in my group or people in general.

    I sure how they get a clue because people are tired of misfires when it comes to the management of this title, some of the things they did post launch were the stupidest things I've ever seen done in a game in years. The first month was great possibly because it made sense, until I reached the end game post Nov 16th.

    Even tho I agree we don't need more, I hate to tell you but they already had a progression system based on stats. What we don't need is pigeonholing the method of getting those pieces of gear. Originally about a year into making the game they were talking about having a truly horizontal system where there were points to distribute on the toons and all of the gear would be completely cosmetic. That disappeared right before launch sadly.

    If they were to make recipes purchasable via karma from the discipline trainers that allow people who maxed their disciplines already the ability to make them (ie. making these mats available from easily obtained drops outside of dungeons) then maybe they'll have a glimmer of a more horizontal progression system. But many of us thing and have said so openly on their forums that they will prolly make this an even bigger mismanagement problem by making all of the mats only available in this single dungeon, or require the use of the mystic toilet instead of the disciplines people already spent all the time leveling.

    This is what gets me about it. They have all these broken system put into the game that don't do anything but get in the way of players. They have the mystic toilet instead of using the disciplines that they keep adding to btw, they have magic find that does exactly the opposite of what one would normally use it for but doesn't work on chests/bags when opening them, they have this huge open world that they were supposed to be putting good used to (prior to launch every interview I've read was about how fast and easy it was to make meta DE's and how they would replace dungeons forever in this game, then Nov 15th happened and FotM was born) since then nothing has been added to open world and every Meta event has had their rewards nerfed. I dunno about you guys but why waste your time waiting for three hours for a dragon event only to get there and get blue green and white items, basically junk.

     

    They've got a LOOONG way to go and they can start by taking whomever is in charge over there and deporting them to another planet well out of reach of being in charge of anything ever again.

  • eye_meye_m Notta Chance, ABPosts: 3,133Member Uncommon
    I have 3 level 80's, and I have yet to make it past Melchor's Leap (just made it into that map this last weekend) I haven't touched fractals, and I've only done the story of the first two dungeons. I'm at around 700hours played last time I checked.  Horizontal progression is all I need. Give me some more DE's, more map areas, more armor and weapon skins and maybe a new race or character options for the expansion.   

    All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

    I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.

    I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

  • PixilatedPixilated Forney, TXPosts: 30Member

    My Guild has given up on this game as well, and I'm

    only shooting for 100% map completion now. The same

    problem of grinding an area or dungeon a 1000 times

    over and over is still here, and for what? I like to explore,

    and this world is big but once I've seen the world and

    I have "near best" gear, what will there be to do really.....

  • boxsndboxsnd Kraxton, ARPosts: 438Member Uncommon
    Why does progression have to be item based? It's the most boring type of progression. Why not make it skill based like DAoC? It makes sense: The more experienced you are, the more skills you get, the harder it is to play. But if you are skilled enough you can get very powerful.

    DAoC - Excalibur & Camlann

  • KingJigglyKingJiggly Simpsonville, SCPosts: 777Member
    Originally posted by boxsnd
    Why does progression have to be item based? It's the most boring type of progression. Why not make it skill based like DAoC? It makes sense: The more experienced you are, the more skills you get, the harder it is to play. But if you are skilled enough you can get very powerful.

    How bout we literaly make it skill based? Introduce huge pve maps that act as giant dungeons. The farther in, the harder it is. That would be really interesting.

  • PaRoXiTiCPaRoXiTiC Denison, TXPosts: 576Member Uncommon
    As long as they don't add any higher stats than Ascended every again, then they will be just fine. Nothing at all wrong with a little bit of gear progression, but it needs to stop right where it is.
  • AlberelAlberel LondonPosts: 1,121Member
    Originally posted by KingJiggly
    Originally posted by boxsnd
    Why does progression have to be item based? It's the most boring type of progression. Why not make it skill based like DAoC? It makes sense: The more experienced you are, the more skills you get, the harder it is to play. But if you are skilled enough you can get very powerful.

    How bout we literaly make it skill based? Introduce huge pve maps that act as giant dungeons. The farther in, the harder it is. That would be really interesting.

    Older MMOs used to have exactly that but it died with the dawn of instancing...

  • KingJigglyKingJiggly Simpsonville, SCPosts: 777Member
    Originally posted by Alberel
    Originally posted by KingJiggly
    Originally posted by boxsnd
    Why does progression have to be item based? It's the most boring type of progression. Why not make it skill based like DAoC? It makes sense: The more experienced you are, the more skills you get, the harder it is to play. But if you are skilled enough you can get very powerful.

    How bout we literaly make it skill based? Introduce huge pve maps that act as giant dungeons. The farther in, the harder it is. That would be really interesting.

    Older MMOs used to have exactly that but it died with the dawn of instancing...

    One can bring it back. I propose the making of a rather larger map, that changes completely based on des. It can be a mix of underground and ground level. It will be filled with hidden passage ways no one may ever notice till well a year later. As one goes into the ground, there will be creature of Primordius to fight you and hidden acient cities o discover and protect. Deeper and deeper the adventureres will go, with greater rewards and epic story lines. To prevent zergs, rockslides and rockfalls can split to larfe of groups ib half and even kill. No way points will be around to respawn. It will require real skill to make it down and down and down, and real adventurers will have to communicate as they go through traps And puzzles. Some zones will even have random pvp moments, where groups can kill each other suddenly should they wish for loot. Bosses and fights with storylines shall encompass most of it though. 

  • NaughtyPNaughtyP Edmonton, ABPosts: 793Member

    I would not have been so miffed about the gear changes if they had done things a) across the board not just one dungeon and b) at a much later date, not 3 months after release. All the early changes did was rock the boat when it simply wasn't necessary. If they had waited 6-9 months and rolled it out to all areas of the game without an annoying grind attached, I would have been far less critical.

    Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.

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