As someone who may or may not have been working in the games industry for many years, I have seen the road littered with dead projects such as this...
As far as 'financing the project themselves' goes, that is the biggest clue they are in too deep. A game with a scope that big needs some serious investment and publisher support. Sure they may have a few paid positions, but the fact that they accept volunteers to begin with screams 'over our heads'.
But like I said, I could be wrong, I hope I am. I've seen all this before many times and I'm simply concerned. It looks like a neat product and it would be a shame if it all went to waste at the last minute.
Sorry don't agree they need a publisher the whole dev/publisher relationship ethos is on shaky ground Kickstarter/indigogo and other's are shifting the sands in the industry.
Look at David Braben he had to ask the fans for help because no way would that game have got the greenlight otherwise far to risky over the time period,JC/Josh only went Kickstarter after the Repop community pretty much insisted and doubled the amount they asked for so they still have that as backup capital.
And no there was no screaming they also recruitted from the Hero forums and those that joined did so willingly so no panic stations here,and full launch is still on target for Nov 2013.
Time will tell. I honestly hope you're right. Sadly, I don't think you will be.
Fair enough but if u need more info join us on the official forums,the devs and community love nothing more than a good freindly debate,
I said it so many times that it can be only 1 Star Wars MMO running at the same time for Licensing reason.
I said 2 years ago that SWG would close just before SWTOR was going to be released regarless the fact SWG was profitable or not.................obviously that's what happened
SWG closed 15 days before SWTOR launch.
Until SWTOR will keep running SWG2 won't be possible
SOE could make a SCI-FI MMO based on a new IP though, but it won't be a Star Wars game
And it has been said even more times that it is pure speculations about the licensing. SOE still runs a Star Wars MMO, Clone Wars Adventures. End of THAT story.
Clone Wars is not classified as a MMO, so you can re-open THAT story and get your fact straight
When 2 years ago I said that SWG would close just before SWTOR launch, uninformed people like you flamed left and right............but then that's what happened
I wasn't guessing, I know how licensing work.
There is nothing speculative about a licence, there are precise rules
Just to make an example that you might understand, you just need to see what happened with Bethesda vs Interplay for the rights of Fallout MMO.
The whole IP has been sold to Bethesda by Interplay, but Bethesda granted a licence to Interplay to make a MMO.
Bethesda made the Single player Fallout game, but they had to fight Interplay to get the MMO licensing back, otherwise Bethesda could not make a Fallout MMO even though they own the IP
Without using the crystal ball I can tell you Bethesda (Zenimax Online) is working on a Fallout MMO to be released a couple of years after TESO
By your definition one could argue that neither SWTOR is a MMO. In fact that's one of the most common complains.
I have never made any comments about SWG regarding SWTOR and licensing. IMO SWG died Nov 2005.
Btw, do you really think all licensing works the same, and YOU are so fortune to be informed of that golden rule? I guess not, and what do we have left then other then speculations or guessings?
Originally posted by Bob_Blawblaw Originally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by moosecatlolI'd say in two more years after the release of a few more sandboxes, then maybe investors might relish the thought of another SWG.
People keep saying this, and I just do not get it. SWG sat firmly in "mediocre" for performance. Comparable games both before and after SWG out performed it by a pretty wide margin. Based on how people keep talking about it, it wasn't going to perform any better, because the game was great, as it was. A developer who could afford a Star Wars license isn't going to think to themselves, "Let's spend a bunch of money, and shoot for firmly mediocre performance!"It's my understanding that that's not quite true. SWG performed well above the industry norm until WoW came along and blew the top off of investor expectations.
I seem to remember SWG hitting a peak of 400k subs (very briefly) and 1 mill box sales, which at the time, blew people minds.
Then came WoW.
SWG was outperformed by one of the EQs and Final Fantasy. It barely out performed Ultima Online. It was mediocre at best.
That doesn't mean it wasn't profitable or easy to run, but it didn't do as well as its contemporaries and it fell far short of SOE's expectations.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I said it so many times that it can be only 1 Star Wars MMO running at the same time for Licensing reason.
I said 2 years ago that SWG would close just before SWTOR was going to be released regarless the fact SWG was profitable or not.................obviously that's what happened
SWG closed 15 days before SWTOR launch.
Until SWTOR will keep running SWG2 won't be possible
SOE could make a SCI-FI MMO based on a new IP though, but it won't be a Star Wars game
And it has been said even more times that it is pure speculations about the licensing. SOE still runs a Star Wars MMO, Clone Wars Adventures. End of THAT story.
Clone Wars is not classified as a MMO, so you can re-open THAT story and get your fact straight
When 2 years ago I said that SWG would close just before SWTOR launch, uninformed people like you flamed left and right............but then that's what happened
I wasn't guessing, I know how licensing work.
There is nothing speculative about a licence, there are precise rules
Just to make an example that you might understand, you just need to see what happened with Bethesda vs Interplay for the rights of Fallout MMO.
The whole IP has been sold to Bethesda by Interplay, but Bethesda granted a licence to Interplay to make a MMO.
Bethesda made the Single player Fallout game, but they had to fight Interplay to get the MMO licensing back, otherwise Bethesda could not make a Fallout MMO even though they own the IP
Without using the crystal ball I can tell you Bethesda (Zenimax Online) is working on a Fallout MMO to be released a couple of years after TESO
By your definition one could argue that neither SWTOR is a MMO. In fact that's one of the most common complains.
I have never made any comments about SWG regarding SWTOR and licensing. IMO SWG died Nov 2005.
Btw, do you really think all licensing works the same, and YOU are so fortune to be informed of that golden rule? I guess not, and what do we have left then other then speculations or guessings?
All you SWG fans need to understand something... The game is D.E.D dead! That being said, until there is a successful sandbox MMO besides Eve, you can keep dreaming because suites/investors aren't going to sink millions into a game for a couple hundred thousand players. It ain't gonna happen.
Everyone here swears they want sandbox games but where are those players when a sandbox launches? They aren't playing them or the industry would see players flocking to those games, but nope. Players are flocking to B2P/F2P games.
Originally posted by KazaraThere are both haters and fanbois that post. The unwanted NGE version of SWG was what was drove the playerbase away. There were some nice additions to SWG post-NGE, but the core of the game was still rotten with the NGE changes. I think many praise SWG for some of the very innovative systems it had and what it once was, not so much the SWG post-NGE version. While I loved SWG pre-NGE, I didn't much care for what it had become and the loss of a once wonderful community (Intrepid for me) was the final deal breaker.
SWG's population had already peaked and started to drop by the time the NGE came out. The population's decline was the reason they considered the NGE in the first place. It actually stabilized the population for a very short period of time before the population's decline continued again. Reviled or not, the NGE did not kill the game, the game was already on the way out.
Yes, at an all time low.
The all time low came several years later. The NGE didn't do much of anything, except get remembered as the worst update to any game, ever. It didn't cause the drop in players though, it was the response to the drop in players. I understand not liking the NGE and not liking having all the rules changed in a game that's been running for years, but blaming NGE for SWG's demise doesn't make sense. The game was already on the way down before the NGE was implemented. If anything, the NGE gave the game an extra year that it wouldn't have otherwise had.
If we discuss the population from release to the introduction of the NGE, " all time low" is ofc considered for this period.
Regarding your claim that the huge drop of players was not a cause of the NGE ... obviously you were not there at the time. No need for any charts to debunk that claim.
There's a post back there that you didn't read where I basically threw my hands up and said, "I was wrong". It is permissible to say stuff like that, even here on the MMORPG.com forums, yes?
It doesn't change the mediocre performance of the game though. They wouldn't have considered the NGE if the game was near their expectations. They tried with the NGE and with SWToR to make a SW themed MMO that would do what they wanted, and it didn't work. I don't think there's any hope for a SW themed MMO, unless it's also a Lego themed one aimed at children and is similar to Wizard 101 or Pirates 101.
I think the people mentioning The Repopulation are right. A game with many of SWG's mechanics, without the SW theme is the closest a developer will get.
Why do you think I referred to "charts" if I had not read your post?
I do find it strange that people that were not there write very precise posts explaining what happened during that time. That's why I concluded that ... obviously you were not there at the time.
I said it so many times that it can be only 1 Star Wars MMO running at the same time for Licensing reason.
I said 2 years ago that SWG would close just before SWTOR was going to be released regarless the fact SWG was profitable or not.................obviously that's what happened
SWG closed 15 days before SWTOR launch.
Until SWTOR will keep running SWG2 won't be possible
SOE could make a SCI-FI MMO based on a new IP though, but it won't be a Star Wars game
And it has been said even more times that it is pure speculations about the licensing. SOE still runs a Star Wars MMO, Clone Wars Adventures. End of THAT story.
Clone Wars is not classified as a MMO, so you can re-open THAT story and get your fact straight
When 2 years ago I said that SWG would close just before SWTOR launch, uninformed people like you flamed left and right............but then that's what happened
I wasn't guessing, I know how licensing work.
There is nothing speculative about a licence, there are precise rules
Just to make an example that you might understand, you just need to see what happened with Bethesda vs Interplay for the rights of Fallout MMO.
The whole IP has been sold to Bethesda by Interplay, but Bethesda granted a licence to Interplay to make a MMO.
Bethesda made the Single player Fallout game, but they had to fight Interplay to get the MMO licensing back, otherwise Bethesda could not make a Fallout MMO even though they own the IP
Without using the crystal ball I can tell you Bethesda (Zenimax Online) is working on a Fallout MMO to be released a couple of years after TESO
By your definition one could argue that neither SWTOR is a MMO. In fact that's one of the most common complains.
I have never made any comments about SWG regarding SWTOR and licensing. IMO SWG died Nov 2005.
Btw, do you really think all licensing works the same, and YOU are so fortune to be informed of that golden rule? I guess not, and what do we have left then other then speculations or guessings?
All you SWG fans need to understand something... The game is D.E.D dead! That being said, until there is a successful sandbox MMO besides Eve, you can keep dreaming because suites/investors aren't going to sink millions into a game for a couple hundred thousand players. It ain't gonna happen.
Everyone here swears they want sandbox games but where are those players when a sandbox launches? They aren't playing them or the industry would see players flocking to those games, but nope. Players are flocking to B2P/F2P games.
Agree on most parts. And as I said; for me SWG died Nov 2005.
I do hope the sandbox players show up WHEN we get a modern sanboxish game, until then we don't know. It's hard to blame people for not playing non existent games.
By your definition one could argue that neither SWTOR is a MMO. In fact that's one of the most common complains.
I have never made any comments about SWG regarding SWTOR and licensing. IMO SWG died Nov 2005.
Btw, do you really think all licensing works the same, and YOU are so fortune to be informed of that golden rule? I guess not, and what do we have left then other then speculations or guessings?
Maybe I actually know more than you?
This is not about guesses, or fortune or knowing the Golden Rule.
There are national and International Laws that regulate IP Licensing.
Of course every Licence has its own terms, but the main point of acquiring a Licence is that a Company has the exclusive to use that IP to make a certain product.
You can have Nationwide or International Licensing, single or multiproduct, single or multi category, long term and short term, exclusive and non exclusive Licensing and so on.
Yes Licensing is a complex subject, but the bottom line is that you get a licence for two reasons:
1) Make product using a popular IP
2) Protect your investment by forbiding the competitors to make the same products you make, using the same IP
Non exclusive IP Licensing are exctremely rare although not impossible, but I can tell you this is not the case of SWTOR and SWG.
Since EA was going to invest over $100 Millions to make the game, it wasn't going to risk it all, by not acquiring an exclusive Licence.
Really, it doesn't matter what me and you think SWTOR should be classified, what counts is how it is classified by the Industry.
SWTOR is classified as a MMORPG, while Clone Wars is classified as a Multiplayer game (Same as Diablo 3)
The two games also cater for two different set of players, over 12 SWTOR, Under 12 CW, so they are not in competition with each other, which means that theoretically the two of them could co-exists even if they were both MMORPGs.
SWTOR and SWG though is another matter, they would be in direct competition, they cannot co-exist.
Of course, Professional and Players alike know that SWG wasn't going to be a big threat to SWTOR..............but that's not how business work unfortunately.
Money is Money, and you do not leave a big competitor like SoE the chance to poach your potential customers with a similar product.
So SWG had to be shut down.
You might not like my explanation, but SWG2 won't be possible until SWTOR is alive (And I bet Smedley would have preferred making his next Sandbox SWG2 rather than EQ3)
By your definition one could argue that neither SWTOR is a MMO. In fact that's one of the most common complains.
I have never made any comments about SWG regarding SWTOR and licensing. IMO SWG died Nov 2005.
Btw, do you really think all licensing works the same, and YOU are so fortune to be informed of that golden rule? I guess not, and what do we have left then other then speculations or guessings?
Maybe I actually know more than you?
This is not about guesses, or fortune or knowing the Golden Rule.
There are national and International Laws that regulate IP Licensing.
Of course every Licence has its own terms, but the main point of acquiring a Licence is that a Company has the exclusive to use that IP to make a certain product.
You can have Nationwide or International Licensing, single or multiproduct, single or multi category, long term and short term, exclusive and non exclusive Licensing and so on.
Yes Licensing is a complex subject, but the bottom line is that you get a licence for two reasons:
1) Make product using a popular IP
2) Protect your investment by forbiding the competitors to make the same products you make, using the same IP
Non exclusive IP Licensing are exctremely rare although not impossible, but I can tell you this is not the case of SWTOR and SWG.
Since EA was going to invest over $100 Millions to make the game, it wasn't going to risk it all, by not acquiring an exclusive Licence.
Really, it doesn't matter what me and you think SWTOR should be classified, what counts is how it is classified by the Industry.
SWTOR is classified as a MMORPG, while Clone Wars is classified as a Multiplayer game (Same as Diablo 3)
The two games also cater for two different set of players, over 12 SWTOR, Under 12 CW, so they are not in competition with each other, which means that theoretically the two of them could co-exists even if they were both MMORPGs.
SWTOR and SWG though is another matter, they would be in direct competition, they cannot co-exist.
Of course, Professional and Players alike know that SWG wasn't going to be a big threat to SWTOR..............but that's not how business work unfortunately.
Money is Money, and you do not leave a big competitor like SoE the chance to poach your potential customers with a similar product.
So SWG had to be shut down.
You might not like my explanation, but SWG2 won't be possible until SWTOR is alive (And I bet Smedley would have preferred making his next Sandbox SWG2 rather than EQ3)
I already do know the general terms for licensing, and thanks for proving my point. You have no evidence for the exclusive part. You just assume.... If any such document had been published I'm sure we have heard about that now.
Speculation at best. Your statement is full of holes. One being you need a license and agreement to use that IP to begin with. Which they did years ago while SWG was still going. LA and SOE could have kept SWG going, they had confrences on this. In the end they just shut it down due to lack of income. Werent told to shut it down or else.
Offer proof, citations, web sites, something to backs up your statemtn, because trust me i looked and not a single thing on this matter. If you can not do this stop attacking members because they dont agree with your speculations.
There are probably 15 camps out there planning SWG 2.
At least 3 of those are in a posiiton in the industry to truly make an offer.
Tech is evolving a bit right now so it's best that a dozen or so plan things so thoughtfully on paper and spread sheets that they cannot be questioned.
They'll pitch it when TITAN comes out and changes the game a bit.
Most licenses are limited by time and are set up for periodical renewals, just like the license for SWG.
The licensing is not a reason for not making another Star Wars game. The work with SWTOR started late 2005 - early 2006 when SWG-NGE tanked. So saying that procedure is not able to be repeated needs some real backing, not just assumptions.
I find it much reasonable to start working on SWG2 or SWTOR 2 or any new Star Wars MMO right now, to be ready in about 4-5 years.
I already do know the general terms for licensing, and thanks for proving my point. You have no evidence for the exclusive part. You just assume.... If any such document had been published I'm sure we have heard about that now.
It doesn't look like you read what I just wrote..................I just explained to you that I do not need to see the detail of the Licensing contract
All you need to know is this:
Originally posted by ste2000
Yes Licensing is a complex subject, but the bottom line is that you get a licence for two reasons:
1) Make product using a popular IP
2) Protect your investment by forbiding the competitors to make the same products you make, using the same IP
Non exclusive IP Licensing are exctremely rare although not impossible, but I can tell you this is not the case of SWTOR and SWG.
SWTOR and SWG are both MMORPGs which is a Subcategory of the Gaming Macro category, and this clash with Point Number 2
Which part you do not get from this concept?
If SOE still had the Star Wars Licence for a MMORPG, SWG will still be running and a sequel would be made.
Did it occured to you the SOE never shut any game except SWG,? Even games far less successful than SWG?
Plese stop being in denial, hoping that SoE all of a sudden dust off their Star Wars licence to make SWG2............if they had the licence they would have made the game already.........problem is, they do not have the Licence anymore.
All you SWG fans need to understand something... The game is D.E.D dead! That being said, until there is a successful sandbox MMO besides Eve, you can keep dreaming because suites/investors aren't going to sink millions into a game for a couple hundred thousand players. It ain't gonna happen.
Everyone here swears they want sandbox games but where are those players when a sandbox launches? They aren't playing them or the industry would see players flocking to those games, but nope. Players are flocking to B2P/F2P games.
Agree on most parts. And as I said; for me SWG died Nov 2005.
I do hope the sandbox players show up WHEN we get a modern sanboxish game, until then we don't know. It's hard to blame people for not playing non existent games.
Don't get me wrong now, I'm not totally against sandbox games, I for one am keeping an eye on EQNext with hopes that maybe it will take a few steps to being more along the lines of EQ back in the day type of game. I just don't see anything but an indie doing that unless $OE is going to, and I have doubts about Smed touching a game and not screwing it up.
I already do know the general terms for licensing, and thanks for proving my point. You have no evidence for the exclusive part. You just assume.... If any such document had been published I'm sure we have heard about that now.
It doesn't look like you read what I just wrote..................I just explained to you that I do not need to see the detail of the Licensing contract
All you need to know is this:
Originally posted by ste2000
Yes Licensing is a complex subject, but the bottom line is that you get a licence for two reasons:
1) Make product using a popular IP
2) Protect your investment by forbiding the competitors to make the same products you make, using the same IP
Non exclusive IP Licensing are exctremely rare although not impossible, but I can tell you this is not the case of SWTOR and SWG.
SWTOR and SWG are both MMORPGs which is a Subcategory of the Gaming Macro category, and this clash with Point Number 2
Which part you do not get from this concept?
If SOE still had the Star Wars Licence for a MMORPG, SWG will still be running and a sequel would be made.
Did it occured to you the SOE never shut any game except SWG,? Even games far less successful than SWG?
Plese stop being in denial, hoping that SoE all of a sudden dust off their Star Wars licence to make SWG2............if they had the licence they would have made the game already.........problem is, they do not have the Licence anymore.
Get real and move on.
Your post is full of even more assumptions now.
And it looks like you are the one not reading posts.
With the knowledge/fact stated in posts above that SWTOR were developed during the SWG life-cycle and licensing, I honestly think it's you who should stop living in denial. That fact actually proves your assumptions that you try to force on people are just wishful thinking from your side whatever reasons you have.
It "is" possible, but SOE has a lot of ammends to do with former SWG players that got completely scrooged on the NGE and "Jedi Village" pre-patch jedi's nerf. Not to mention all the hate they stirred with BM's.
Originally posted by Sandbox Originally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by SandboxOriginally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by SandboxOriginally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by KazaraThere are both haters and fanbois that post. The unwanted NGE version of SWG was what was drove the playerbase away. There were some nice additions to SWG post-NGE, but the core of the game was still rotten with the NGE changes. I think many praise SWG for some of the very innovative systems it had and what it once was, not so much the SWG post-NGE version. While I loved SWG pre-NGE, I didn't much care for what it had become and the loss of a once wonderful community (Intrepid for me) was the final deal breaker.
SWG's population had already peaked and started to drop by the time the NGE came out. The population's decline was the reason they considered the NGE in the first place. It actually stabilized the population for a very short period of time before the population's decline continued again. Reviled or not, the NGE did not kill the game, the game was already on the way out. Yes, at an all time low.The all time low came several years later. The NGE didn't do much of anything, except get remembered as the worst update to any game, ever. It didn't cause the drop in players though, it was the response to the drop in players. I understand not liking the NGE and not liking having all the rules changed in a game that's been running for years, but blaming NGE for SWG's demise doesn't make sense. The game was already on the way down before the NGE was implemented. If anything, the NGE gave the game an extra year that it wouldn't have otherwise had. If we discuss the population from release to the introduction of the NGE, " all time low" is ofc considered for this period. Regarding your claim that the huge drop of players was not a cause of the NGE ... obviously you were not there at the time. No need for any charts to debunk that claim. There's a post back there that you didn't read where I basically threw my hands up and said, "I was wrong". It is permissible to say stuff like that, even here on the MMORPG.com forums, yes? It doesn't change the mediocre performance of the game though. They wouldn't have considered the NGE if the game was near their expectations. They tried with the NGE and with SWToR to make a SW themed MMO that would do what they wanted, and it didn't work. I don't think there's any hope for a SW themed MMO, unless it's also a Lego themed one aimed at children and is similar to Wizard 101 or Pirates 101. I think the people mentioning The Repopulation are right. A game with many of SWG's mechanics, without the SW theme is the closest a developer will get. Why do you think I referred to "charts" if I had not read your post?
I do find it strange that people that were not there write very precise posts explaining what happened during that time. That's why I concluded that ... obviously you were not there at the time.
That's the great part about history. I don't have to have been there. SWG did not perform nearly as well as SOE wanted, and didn't perform as well as MMOs released a bit before or a bit after it was released. That's why they tried the NGE. They weren't happy with the game's performance. It doesn't matter how much the people who played the game enjoyed it or even loved it. The game's overall performance in the market was mediocre.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
That's the great part about history. I don't have to have been there. SWG did not perform nearly as well as SOE wanted, and didn't perform as well as MMOs released a bit before or a bit after it was released. That's why they tried the NGE. They weren't happy with the game's performance. It doesn't matter how much the people who played the game enjoyed it or even loved it. The game's overall performance in the market was mediocre.
You're right in that it didn't perform up to SOE's standards, but then again their standards were too high to begin with. Despite its many flaws, the game had a nice and steady population of players that would have played it until the end of time. Take it from someone that WAS there and playing it. The worlds were full, the cantinas were full and people were enjoying themselves. The biggest thing the game was lacking was questing and they were already fixing that problem with expansions. There was no need to revamp the entire game in order to make it like WOW. That was the most stupid and idioitic decision ever and it killed the game.
That's the great part about history. I don't have to have been there. SWG did not perform nearly as well as SOE wanted, and didn't perform as well as MMOs released a bit before or a bit after it was released. That's why they tried the NGE. They weren't happy with the game's performance. It doesn't matter how much the people who played the game enjoyed it or even loved it. The game's overall performance in the market was mediocre.
You're right in that it didn't perform up to SOE's standards, but then again their standards were too high to begin with. Despite its many flaws, the game had a nice and steady population of players that would have played it until the end of time. Take it from someone that WAS there and playing it. The worlds were full, the cantinas were full and people were enjoying themselves. The biggest thing the game was lacking was questing and they were already fixing that problem with expansions. There was no need to revamp the entire game in order to make it like WOW. That was the most stupid and idioitic decision ever and it killed the game.
Agreed. And as I said in a previous post in this thread, if memory serves, it did infact out perform the MMO's of the day. 250,000 was a very large number back then (and I do recall a headline somewhere stating it very briefly hit upwards of 400,000 subs... looking for the link). 1 million box sales was also a huge number. But then WoW came along and changed what everyone thought was possible.
Speaking about the populations from a subscribers POV. I took a break for a month following to CU, only because there was a noticeable dip in populations and all of my friends left. Went back about a month before the NGE, and it seemed to be thriving again, and that was on Sunrunner of all servers. The other servers were bursting. Take that for what it's worth. As a player, it seemed to be healthy up until the NGE.
That's the great part about history. I don't have to have been there. SWG did not perform nearly as well as SOE wanted, and didn't perform as well as MMOs released a bit before or a bit after it was released. That's why they tried the NGE. They weren't happy with the game's performance. It doesn't matter how much the people who played the game enjoyed it or even loved it. The game's overall performance in the market was mediocre.
You're right in that it didn't perform up to SOE's standards, but then again their standards were too high to begin with. Despite its many flaws, the game had a nice and steady population of players that would have played it until the end of time. Take it from someone that WAS there and playing it. The worlds were full, the cantinas were full and people were enjoying themselves. The biggest thing the game was lacking was questing and they were already fixing that problem with expansions. There was no need to revamp the entire game in order to make it like WOW. That was the most stupid and idioitic decision ever and it killed the game.
It seems like very few if any games are going to get SoE's goal of one million steady subscribers for SWG. With hindsight being what it is, a 300k steady population is really good. They didn't have the benefit of hindsight. They just had other games performing much better at the time along with their own expectations.
** edit **
Just a note on performance, both Everquest and Final Fantasy outperformed SWG, and they released either a little before or a little after SWG. UO did not outperform SWG, but UO reached 278k users in an environment that was much less friendly to online play compared to SWG's 300k players. Neither Everquest or Final Fantasy reached the goal set by SOE for SWG. I don't know what that means other than their goal was probably unrealistic.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
That's the great part about history. I don't have to have been there. SWG did not perform nearly as well as SOE wanted, and didn't perform as well as MMOs released a bit before or a bit after it was released. That's why they tried the NGE. They weren't happy with the game's performance. It doesn't matter how much the people who played the game enjoyed it or even loved it. The game's overall performance in the market was mediocre.
You're right in that it didn't perform up to SOE's standards, but then again their standards were too high to begin with. Despite its many flaws, the game had a nice and steady population of players that would have played it until the end of time. Take it from someone that WAS there and playing it. The worlds were full, the cantinas were full and people were enjoying themselves. The biggest thing the game was lacking was questing and they were already fixing that problem with expansions. There was no need to revamp the entire game in order to make it like WOW. That was the most stupid and idioitic decision ever and it killed the game.
It seems like very few if any games are going to get SoE's goal of one million steady subscribers for SWG. With hindsight being what it is, a 300k steady population is really good. They didn't have the benefit of hindsight. They just had other games performing much better at the time along with their own expectations.
** edit **
Just a note on performance, both Everquest and Final Fantasy outperformed SWG, and they released either a little before or a little after SWG. UO did not outperform SWG, but UO reached 278k users in an environment that was much less friendly to online play compared to SWG's 300k players. Neither Everquest or Final Fantasy reached the goal set by SOE for SWG. I don't know what that means other than their goal was probably unrealistic.
This is the first time i hear anything about a one million subscriber goal for SWG. Did you make that up like some of your other statements regarding SWG or do you have any source for that claim?
This is the first time i hear anything about a one million subscriber goal for SWG. Did you make that up like some of your other statements regarding SWG or do you have any source for that claim?
I've heard before that SOE had such ambitions for SWG (or that LucasArts was "expecting" it). That isn't to say that either of them were being truly realistic. One thing that has been suggested is that LA pushed the NGE after WOW proved possible the sub numbers that LA thought their intellectual property "deserved".
I find it quite funny that people talk about SWG like it was some great game that got the shaft. The game was garbage for all but a small minority of players. That's why it got revamped several times, yet still never managed to attract many subs.
I don't think there will be an swg 2. I also think that developers and studios are in a very hard downward spiral.
There have only been 3 successful games in the past 10 years in terms of growth. By growth , i mean they actually grew after release and continued to create more growth.
Those games being wow, eve and league of legends.
Before we get started here lets disregard eve it's a niche, hardcore game that grows but at a very small rate. Still successful but an entirely different beast in terms of what im comparing here.
WoW basically took a niche, everquest. A game that was popular in the gaming crowd. They took this model and mainstreamed it. Made it more casual and available to the masses. This brought in a huge success.
Let's take LoL. They took a niche, dota. A game popular in the rts world of warcraft. They mainstreamed it and made it accessable and friendlier to the world. This game was a huge success.
We look at swtor, gw2, tsw, conan, warhammer. These games are trying to capitalize on what wow had already done. This is why none and i mean none of these mmo's can be called successful the past 5 or so years. By successful i mean growth. These games launch, they get a bunch of hype and then they go free to play. They keep a crowd of people. They then launch a cash shop.
This cash shop is a grab at people , not at max leve, but a grab at the free players starting out. I know someone who works for a cash shop game. The goal is try to put items that will fetch anywhere from 20-40 dollars from a new customer. There is no real intention of retaining these people. These f2p games have no desire for longevity and content is built around cash shops. These games thrive on nickel and diming and scraping up people looking for something new.
I was fooled by htis many times, the last being swtor. I finally realized if it says f2p 99% of the time it's safer to avoid it. The exception being lol. Which , even though being free to play, has a great model and probably the only real model worth investing money in.
So anyways, the point im trying to make is that a swg 2 although sounding great, will be nothing more than another copy of a mainstream mmo type game and that's not what we want.
I'd love a star wars game set with the swg theme, the complexity and the content, the enourmous worlds, the ability to live in a world not only by combat but being a part of it. Eve has made this but in a very different clicquish way.
I'd rather wait till companies and developers learn from their mistakes and create true innovation. Only then and hopefully at the right time will a real star wars mmo launch.
Swg was ahead of it's time in terms of sandbox gameplay, it was stale in almost every other aspect. It had great ideas that bioware should have incorporated. It also had a very terrible life cycle.
Swg is a great memory for a lot of you. Let it live in your memories, and be careful what you wish for , espeically at this point in time with developers out of touch with gamers.
Swtor will ride it's cycle till probably next year and more than likely a closing announcement on that flop. Then maybe we can look forward to a different genre of gaming a new level of star wars.
Originally posted by Sandbox Originally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by ktanner3Originally posted by lizardbones
That's the great part about history. I don't have to have been there. SWG did not perform nearly as well as SOE wanted, and didn't perform as well as MMOs released a bit before or a bit after it was released. That's why they tried the NGE. They weren't happy with the game's performance. It doesn't matter how much the people who played the game enjoyed it or even loved it. The game's overall performance in the market was mediocre.You're right in that it didn't perform up to SOE's standards, but then again their standards were too high to begin with. Despite its many flaws, the game had a nice and steady population of players that would have played it until the end of time. Take it from someone that WAS there and playing it. The worlds were full, the cantinas were full and people were enjoying themselves. The biggest thing the game was lacking was questing and they were already fixing that problem with expansions. There was no need to revamp the entire game in order to make it like WOW. That was the most stupid and idioitic decision ever and it killed the game. It seems like very few if any games are going to get SoE's goal of one million steady subscribers for SWG. With hindsight being what it is, a 300k steady population is really good. They didn't have the benefit of hindsight. They just had other games performing much better at the time along with their own expectations. ** edit ** Just a note on performance, both Everquest and Final Fantasy outperformed SWG, and they released either a little before or a little after SWG. UO did not outperform SWG, but UO reached 278k users in an environment that was much less friendly to online play compared to SWG's 300k players. Neither Everquest or Final Fantasy reached the goal set by SOE for SWG. I don't know what that means other than their goal was probably unrealistic. This is the first time i hear anything about a one million subscriber goal for SWG. Did you make that up like some of your other statements regarding SWG or do you have any source for that claim?
It was a reference from a Wikipedia article, but when I followed the reference, it went to a page talking about WoW's subscriber numbers. If I can find the actual article that is supposed to be referenced in the Wikipedia article, I'll post it.
One thing I did find was that the performance of the game was disappointing...but with no real details. They were just not happy with the games performance, and even less so when WoW came out.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Comments
Fair enough but if u need more info join us on the official forums,the devs and community love nothing more than a good freindly debate,
By your definition one could argue that neither SWTOR is a MMO. In fact that's one of the most common complains.
I have never made any comments about SWG regarding SWTOR and licensing. IMO SWG died Nov 2005.
Btw, do you really think all licensing works the same, and YOU are so fortune to be informed of that golden rule? I guess not, and what do we have left then other then speculations or guessings?
It's my understanding that that's not quite true. SWG performed well above the industry norm until WoW came along and blew the top off of investor expectations.
I seem to remember SWG hitting a peak of 400k subs (very briefly) and 1 mill box sales, which at the time, blew people minds.
Then came WoW.
SWG was outperformed by one of the EQs and Final Fantasy. It barely out performed Ultima Online. It was mediocre at best.
That doesn't mean it wasn't profitable or easy to run, but it didn't do as well as its contemporaries and it fell far short of SOE's expectations.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
All you SWG fans need to understand something... The game is D.E.D dead! That being said, until there is a successful sandbox MMO besides Eve, you can keep dreaming because suites/investors aren't going to sink millions into a game for a couple hundred thousand players. It ain't gonna happen.
Everyone here swears they want sandbox games but where are those players when a sandbox launches? They aren't playing them or the industry would see players flocking to those games, but nope. Players are flocking to B2P/F2P games.
Why do you think I referred to "charts" if I had not read your post?
I do find it strange that people that were not there write very precise posts explaining what happened during that time. That's why I concluded that ... obviously you were not there at the time.
Agree on most parts. And as I said; for me SWG died Nov 2005.
I do hope the sandbox players show up WHEN we get a modern sanboxish game, until then we don't know. It's hard to blame people for not playing non existent games.
Maybe I actually know more than you?
This is not about guesses, or fortune or knowing the Golden Rule.
There are national and International Laws that regulate IP Licensing.
Of course every Licence has its own terms, but the main point of acquiring a Licence is that a Company has the exclusive to use that IP to make a certain product.
You can have Nationwide or International Licensing, single or multiproduct, single or multi category, long term and short term, exclusive and non exclusive Licensing and so on.
Yes Licensing is a complex subject, but the bottom line is that you get a licence for two reasons:
1) Make product using a popular IP
2) Protect your investment by forbiding the competitors to make the same products you make, using the same IP
Non exclusive IP Licensing are exctremely rare although not impossible, but I can tell you this is not the case of SWTOR and SWG.
Since EA was going to invest over $100 Millions to make the game, it wasn't going to risk it all, by not acquiring an exclusive Licence.
Really, it doesn't matter what me and you think SWTOR should be classified, what counts is how it is classified by the Industry.
SWTOR is classified as a MMORPG, while Clone Wars is classified as a Multiplayer game (Same as Diablo 3)
The two games also cater for two different set of players, over 12 SWTOR, Under 12 CW, so they are not in competition with each other, which means that theoretically the two of them could co-exists even if they were both MMORPGs.
SWTOR and SWG though is another matter, they would be in direct competition, they cannot co-exist.
Of course, Professional and Players alike know that SWG wasn't going to be a big threat to SWTOR..............but that's not how business work unfortunately.
Money is Money, and you do not leave a big competitor like SoE the chance to poach your potential customers with a similar product.
So SWG had to be shut down.
You might not like my explanation, but SWG2 won't be possible until SWTOR is alive (And I bet Smedley would have preferred making his next Sandbox SWG2 rather than EQ3)
I already do know the general terms for licensing, and thanks for proving my point. You have no evidence for the exclusive part. You just assume.... If any such document had been published I'm sure we have heard about that now.
Speculation at best. Your statement is full of holes. One being you need a license and agreement to use that IP to begin with. Which they did years ago while SWG was still going. LA and SOE could have kept SWG going, they had confrences on this. In the end they just shut it down due to lack of income. Werent told to shut it down or else.
Offer proof, citations, web sites, something to backs up your statemtn, because trust me i looked and not a single thing on this matter. If you can not do this stop attacking members because they dont agree with your speculations.
There are probably 15 camps out there planning SWG 2.
At least 3 of those are in a posiiton in the industry to truly make an offer.
Tech is evolving a bit right now so it's best that a dozen or so plan things so thoughtfully on paper and spread sheets that they cannot be questioned.
They'll pitch it when TITAN comes out and changes the game a bit.
It'll be possible 5 to 7 years from now.
a yo ho ho
Most licenses are limited by time and are set up for periodical renewals, just like the license for SWG.
The licensing is not a reason for not making another Star Wars game. The work with SWTOR started late 2005 - early 2006 when SWG-NGE tanked. So saying that procedure is not able to be repeated needs some real backing, not just assumptions.
I find it much reasonable to start working on SWG2 or SWTOR 2 or any new Star Wars MMO right now, to be ready in about 4-5 years.
It doesn't look like you read what I just wrote..................I just explained to you that I do not need to see the detail of the Licensing contract
All you need to know is this:
SWTOR and SWG are both MMORPGs which is a Subcategory of the Gaming Macro category, and this clash with Point Number 2
Which part you do not get from this concept?
If SOE still had the Star Wars Licence for a MMORPG, SWG will still be running and a sequel would be made.
Did it occured to you the SOE never shut any game except SWG,? Even games far less successful than SWG?
Plese stop being in denial, hoping that SoE all of a sudden dust off their Star Wars licence to make SWG2............if they had the licence they would have made the game already.........problem is, they do not have the Licence anymore.
Get real and move on.
Don't get me wrong now, I'm not totally against sandbox games, I for one am keeping an eye on EQNext with hopes that maybe it will take a few steps to being more along the lines of EQ back in the day type of game. I just don't see anything but an indie doing that unless $OE is going to, and I have doubts about Smed touching a game and not screwing it up.
Your post is full of even more assumptions now.
And it looks like you are the one not reading posts.
With the knowledge/fact stated in posts above that SWTOR were developed during the SWG life-cycle and licensing, I honestly think it's you who should stop living in denial. That fact actually proves your assumptions that you try to force on people are just wishful thinking from your side whatever reasons you have.
It "is" possible, but SOE has a lot of ammends to do with former SWG players that got completely scrooged on the NGE and "Jedi Village" pre-patch jedi's nerf. Not to mention all the hate they stirred with BM's.
TwitchTV: iNeoki
Yes, at an all time low.
The all time low came several years later. The NGE didn't do much of anything, except get remembered as the worst update to any game, ever. It didn't cause the drop in players though, it was the response to the drop in players. I understand not liking the NGE and not liking having all the rules changed in a game that's been running for years, but blaming NGE for SWG's demise doesn't make sense. The game was already on the way down before the NGE was implemented. If anything, the NGE gave the game an extra year that it wouldn't have otherwise had.
If we discuss the population from release to the introduction of the NGE, " all time low" is ofc considered for this period. Regarding your claim that the huge drop of players was not a cause of the NGE ... obviously you were not there at the time. No need for any charts to debunk that claim.
There's a post back there that you didn't read where I basically threw my hands up and said, "I was wrong". It is permissible to say stuff like that, even here on the MMORPG.com forums, yes? It doesn't change the mediocre performance of the game though. They wouldn't have considered the NGE if the game was near their expectations. They tried with the NGE and with SWToR to make a SW themed MMO that would do what they wanted, and it didn't work. I don't think there's any hope for a SW themed MMO, unless it's also a Lego themed one aimed at children and is similar to Wizard 101 or Pirates 101. I think the people mentioning The Repopulation are right. A game with many of SWG's mechanics, without the SW theme is the closest a developer will get.
Why do you think I referred to "charts" if I had not read your post?
I do find it strange that people that were not there write very precise posts explaining what happened during that time. That's why I concluded that ... obviously you were not there at the time.
That's the great part about history. I don't have to have been there. SWG did not perform nearly as well as SOE wanted, and didn't perform as well as MMOs released a bit before or a bit after it was released. That's why they tried the NGE. They weren't happy with the game's performance. It doesn't matter how much the people who played the game enjoyed it or even loved it. The game's overall performance in the market was mediocre.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
You're right in that it didn't perform up to SOE's standards, but then again their standards were too high to begin with. Despite its many flaws, the game had a nice and steady population of players that would have played it until the end of time. Take it from someone that WAS there and playing it. The worlds were full, the cantinas were full and people were enjoying themselves. The biggest thing the game was lacking was questing and they were already fixing that problem with expansions. There was no need to revamp the entire game in order to make it like WOW. That was the most stupid and idioitic decision ever and it killed the game.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
Agreed. And as I said in a previous post in this thread, if memory serves, it did infact out perform the MMO's of the day. 250,000 was a very large number back then (and I do recall a headline somewhere stating it very briefly hit upwards of 400,000 subs... looking for the link). 1 million box sales was also a huge number. But then WoW came along and changed what everyone thought was possible.
Speaking about the populations from a subscribers POV. I took a break for a month following to CU, only because there was a noticeable dip in populations and all of my friends left. Went back about a month before the NGE, and it seemed to be thriving again, and that was on Sunrunner of all servers. The other servers were bursting. Take that for what it's worth. As a player, it seemed to be healthy up until the NGE.
It seems like very few if any games are going to get SoE's goal of one million steady subscribers for SWG. With hindsight being what it is, a 300k steady population is really good. They didn't have the benefit of hindsight. They just had other games performing much better at the time along with their own expectations.
** edit **
Just a note on performance, both Everquest and Final Fantasy outperformed SWG, and they released either a little before or a little after SWG. UO did not outperform SWG, but UO reached 278k users in an environment that was much less friendly to online play compared to SWG's 300k players. Neither Everquest or Final Fantasy reached the goal set by SOE for SWG. I don't know what that means other than their goal was probably unrealistic.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
This is the first time i hear anything about a one million subscriber goal for SWG. Did you make that up like some of your other statements regarding SWG or do you have any source for that claim?
I've heard before that SOE had such ambitions for SWG (or that LucasArts was "expecting" it). That isn't to say that either of them were being truly realistic. One thing that has been suggested is that LA pushed the NGE after WOW proved possible the sub numbers that LA thought their intellectual property "deserved".
You make me like charity
I don't think there will be an swg 2. I also think that developers and studios are in a very hard downward spiral.
There have only been 3 successful games in the past 10 years in terms of growth. By growth , i mean they actually grew after release and continued to create more growth.
Those games being wow, eve and league of legends.
Before we get started here lets disregard eve it's a niche, hardcore game that grows but at a very small rate. Still successful but an entirely different beast in terms of what im comparing here.
WoW basically took a niche, everquest. A game that was popular in the gaming crowd. They took this model and mainstreamed it. Made it more casual and available to the masses. This brought in a huge success.
Let's take LoL. They took a niche, dota. A game popular in the rts world of warcraft. They mainstreamed it and made it accessable and friendlier to the world. This game was a huge success.
We look at swtor, gw2, tsw, conan, warhammer. These games are trying to capitalize on what wow had already done. This is why none and i mean none of these mmo's can be called successful the past 5 or so years. By successful i mean growth. These games launch, they get a bunch of hype and then they go free to play. They keep a crowd of people. They then launch a cash shop.
This cash shop is a grab at people , not at max leve, but a grab at the free players starting out. I know someone who works for a cash shop game. The goal is try to put items that will fetch anywhere from 20-40 dollars from a new customer. There is no real intention of retaining these people. These f2p games have no desire for longevity and content is built around cash shops. These games thrive on nickel and diming and scraping up people looking for something new.
I was fooled by htis many times, the last being swtor. I finally realized if it says f2p 99% of the time it's safer to avoid it. The exception being lol. Which , even though being free to play, has a great model and probably the only real model worth investing money in.
So anyways, the point im trying to make is that a swg 2 although sounding great, will be nothing more than another copy of a mainstream mmo type game and that's not what we want.
I'd love a star wars game set with the swg theme, the complexity and the content, the enourmous worlds, the ability to live in a world not only by combat but being a part of it. Eve has made this but in a very different clicquish way.
I'd rather wait till companies and developers learn from their mistakes and create true innovation. Only then and hopefully at the right time will a real star wars mmo launch.
Swg was ahead of it's time in terms of sandbox gameplay, it was stale in almost every other aspect. It had great ideas that bioware should have incorporated. It also had a very terrible life cycle.
Swg is a great memory for a lot of you. Let it live in your memories, and be careful what you wish for , espeically at this point in time with developers out of touch with gamers.
Swtor will ride it's cycle till probably next year and more than likely a closing announcement on that flop. Then maybe we can look forward to a different genre of gaming a new level of star wars.
You're right in that it didn't perform up to SOE's standards, but then again their standards were too high to begin with. Despite its many flaws, the game had a nice and steady population of players that would have played it until the end of time. Take it from someone that WAS there and playing it. The worlds were full, the cantinas were full and people were enjoying themselves. The biggest thing the game was lacking was questing and they were already fixing that problem with expansions. There was no need to revamp the entire game in order to make it like WOW. That was the most stupid and idioitic decision ever and it killed the game.
It seems like very few if any games are going to get SoE's goal of one million steady subscribers for SWG. With hindsight being what it is, a 300k steady population is really good. They didn't have the benefit of hindsight. They just had other games performing much better at the time along with their own expectations. ** edit ** Just a note on performance, both Everquest and Final Fantasy outperformed SWG, and they released either a little before or a little after SWG. UO did not outperform SWG, but UO reached 278k users in an environment that was much less friendly to online play compared to SWG's 300k players. Neither Everquest or Final Fantasy reached the goal set by SOE for SWG. I don't know what that means other than their goal was probably unrealistic.
This is the first time i hear anything about a one million subscriber goal for SWG. Did you make that up like some of your other statements regarding SWG or do you have any source for that claim?
It was a reference from a Wikipedia article, but when I followed the reference, it went to a page talking about WoW's subscriber numbers. If I can find the actual article that is supposed to be referenced in the Wikipedia article, I'll post it.
One thing I did find was that the performance of the game was disappointing...but with no real details. They were just not happy with the games performance, and even less so when WoW came out.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.