Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

[General Article] City of Heroes: Profitable or Not?

1456810

Comments

  • AlverantAlverant Member RarePosts: 1,319

    What it comes down to is that NCSoft cannot be trusted. They have a history of lying and now the motivation to do so now to save face and implement some kind of damage control. Trust and loyalty and honesty have no meaning in the corporate world anymore.

    All we know for sure is that they don't care about players in the western market and it would be in our best intrests not to play any game they control again or else the same thing will happen. We weren't customers to them, we were a product to be used, abused, then tossed aside when we became inconvenient.

  • GishgeronGishgeron Member Posts: 1,287

     

      If it were me, I'd retool the game to work on Linux and release it with a modified engine on the Steambox (or whatever Valve is calling it) when that console comes out.  Instead of being full on server MMO...just make it 6 man groups with user hosting and a lobby to meet players coupled with a CoD matchmaking system to get random groups going.  Release the game again for 60$ as B2P and then start churning out DLC for 20$ a pop.

      While Superhero MMO's have suffered...Superhero console games have done WELL and the game would do well in that market.  I'd love it if they did it for the xbox, but it would take some time to remake that game in this way and they would need to think about future console trends, of which I'm going to put hard money that, should Valve seriously enter it...they will seriously WIN it.

      I'd pay 60$ tonight to play CoH on my xbox.  My friends would too.  NCSoft would do well to consider it before selling the IP.  Reworking it wouldn't even take all that long as the xbox language is a C derivative anyway.  Well, it WOULD take a bit since you'd be changing a ton about how the game does its networking and all that.  I don't mean to underplay what changing an MMO into a multiplayer lobby game really is.  Hell they might have to make it new entirely, I've never even thought about what that sort of change entails.  I Just know I'd pay for it.

    image

  • Another_FanAnother_Fan Member UncommonPosts: 48
     
    That would be major retooling and redisign. It wasn't unusual to see people with 6-8 trays of 10 clickable powers each. All those powers/items bound to chording key combinations. The game was really married to keyboard and mouse. 20 would be a low number for things you would need to be able to instantly activate.
    Originally posted by Gishgeron

     

      If it were me, I'd retool the game to work on Linux and release it with a modified engine on the Steambox (or whatever Valve is calling it) when that console comes out.  Instead of being full on server MMO...just make it 6 man groups with user hosting and a lobby to meet players coupled with a CoD matchmaking system to get random groups going.  Release the game again for 60$ as B2P and then start churning out DLC for 20$ a pop.

      

     
  • WraithoneWraithone Member RarePosts: 3,806
    Originally posted by f0dell54
    Originally posted by Alverant

    What it comes down to is that NCSoft cannot be trusted. They have a history of lying and now the motivation to do so now to save face and implement some kind of damage control. Trust and loyalty and honesty have no meaning in the corporate world anymore.

    All we know for sure is that they don't care about players in the western market and it would be in our best intrests not to play any game they control again or else the same thing will happen. We weren't customers to them, we were a product to be used, abused, then tossed aside when we became inconvenient.

     

    Over exaggeration, enjoy your tin foil hat

    No grand conspiracy is required here... So, your attempt at belittlement isn't even 1/10 ^^  All thats required is to examine NCsofts past history, and behavior.  That speaks for itself.  Just one of many gems is this from Wiki. Which eventually ended up costing them $32 million.

    Richard Garriott termination

    Richard Garriott, lead developer of Tabula Rasa, sued NCsoft for US$47 million in damages concerning his termination from the company. Garriott asserted in his suit that he was forced out of the company and was made to sell his 400,000 shares in NCsoft's stock, losing him millions of dollars. In addition, he claimed that the company was guilty of fraud by forging his resignation announcement.[16] On July 30, 2010, a jury in a Texas federal court awarded him US$28 million in damages. NCsoft appealed the ruling.[17] Garriott again prevailed on appeal and NCsoft was required to pay an additional US$4 million, bringing the total damages awarded to Garriott to US$32 million.[18]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCsoft#Richard_Garriott_termination

    Couple questionable business practices, with the fact that they have now axed no less than five western games, and a western company would have to be ignorant and/or desperate to choose them as a publisher.

    "If you can't kill it, don't make it mad."
  • ksternalksternal Member UncommonPosts: 85
    The biggest rumor was CoH was cancelled because they didn't care what the players wanted only what the investors cared about. And that was they wanted to invest all their money into Guild Wars II which I won't play after GW was a complete failure in my opinion and Aion which NCSoft lost millions on.
  • bbbb42bbbb42 Member UncommonPosts: 297

    It could also be they shut it down to relaunch sometime in the future

    with a different Dev studio at lower wages

    image
  • logandwjlogandwj Member Posts: 25

    Did no one else notice the interesting post above by AmmonJ? He gave out some very specific information about who he is and his credentials. 

    ---------------------

    Since annonymity bothers some, then let's put it aside.  My name is Ammon Johns, and I work as an Internet Marketing Consultant.  I speak at International conferences, and my clients are predominently large national and multinationals, including banks, insurance companies, online stores, charities, and portals.  I also work for small local and specialist businesses online.  I've worked for many of the sites you probably know and use yourself.  I don't specialise in the game development industry at all, but I work with every level of internet market.  I am considered a world expert in marketing online.

    --------------------

     

    I did a name search in google and this guy is not some unknown. There's a whole lot of sites detailing who he is and his business portfolio. He's apparently the real deal. This is not some pimply fan-boi in his mothers basement whining about a lost game. This is a professional offering his opinion based on his own business experience. And what I'm getting from what he's saying is that there's no way City of Heroes wasn't profitable, and that there's something really shady going on with NCSoft. 

     

    Go back up and read AmmonJ's post. Then go look up his credentials for yourself. Don't take my word for it. 

     

    -Logan
    ----------
    "Wake UP! Time for SCIENCE!"
    -Adam Savage "Mythbusters"
    ----------

  • aslan132aslan132 Member UncommonPosts: 619

    I dont see what the big deal is here. Why is everyone so focused on whether the game was profitable or not. Theres no law or rule that says they cant shut a game down if its profitable. They have every right to shut it down, and they owe noone a reason. You agree to it every time you log in. They can make any changes they want, add servers, remove servers, or close them all down. 

     

    Honestly, MMOs close. This isnt the first, and it certainly wont be the last. Players cried when SWG shut down, and it accomplished nothing. They arent going to turn the servers back on just because a few players start crying over it. Find a new game and move on. How is this news?

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910


    Originally posted by logandwj
    Did no one else notice the interesting post above by AmmonJ? He gave out some very specific information about who he is and his credentials. ---------------------Since annonymity bothers some, then let's put it aside.  My name is Ammon Johns, and I work as an Internet Marketing Consultant.  I speak at International conferences, and my clients are predominently large national and multinationals, including banks, insurance companies, online stores, charities, and portals.  I also work for small local and specialist businesses online.  I've worked for many of the sites you probably know and use yourself.  I don't specialise in the game development industry at all, but I work with every level of internet market.  I am considered a world expert in marketing online.-------------------- I did a name search in google and this guy is not some unknown. There's a whole lot of sites detailing who he is and his business portfolio. He's apparently the real deal. This is not some pimply fan-boi in his mothers basement whining about a lost game. This is a professional offering his opinion based on his own business experience. And what I'm getting from what he's saying is that there's no way City of Heroes wasn't profitable, and that there's something really shady going on with NCSoft.  Go back up and read AmmonJ's post. Then go look up his credentials for yourself. Don't take my word for it.  

    I don't think anyone is saying the game couldn't have been profitable. But the game and the studio were one product. Eighty people to run one game with no additional products to show for it could very well be unprofitable or show zero future potential.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • TchildeTchilde Member Posts: 3

    Unrelated to the current discussion topics.

    Has anyone found another game worth thier time? WoW, SWTOR, LOTRO, DNDO, none of them can keep my attention, and  the community sucks on all except LOTRO. I hate zombies, so TSW is out. This the 3rdtime NCsoft has axed a MMO for me, likely not gonna give them another shot at my online so called life. I am a six year vet of COH just so you know where I am coming from. Co and DCUO are wretched games in my opinion, tried and uninstalled.

    So any good tips are welcome.

    TTFN

  • Another_FanAnother_Fan Member UncommonPosts: 48
    Originally posted by Volkanik

    I really don't understand the need for the continual dissection of why City of Heroes was closed down.  Look at the player number figures from around Q3 of 2009 and you'll see a steady trend downward.  It was an old game that people gradually stopped playing.  Simple as that.

    I played the game for many years (it was my first MMO and the only one that held me more than a few months), so believe me when I say I was as saddened to see it go as anyone, but there seems to be an unwillingness by many to accept the very simple facts about its demise.

    Seriously, let it go already.

     

    The city of heroes community was unable to accept reality as it came crashing down around their ears. The game had been in continuous decline for four years prior to the shutdown. The developers had taken to making false and misleading statements to the players, or have you all forgotten Mr. Miller's statement to the PvPers that "PvP was a priority for paragon studios and would be receiving regular updates ?" . They would stonewall with silence when they failed to deliver and even coopted heavy posters into shilling for them.

     

    Personally I  wouldn't believe anything anyone from paragon studios had to say, and find no shock  at the fact, that people who bought their statements hook line and sinker can't let it go. Take a look

     

     

     

    "this complies with to the notion that NCsoft tried to work with Paragon to make things work and keep the game alive, but the Q2 2012 Earnings Report seems to jive with our anonymous friend's claims. CoH seemed to, at least during that window, be bringing in around 3-4 million dollars a month in revenue."

     

     

    PS was bringing in 3-4 million a quarter or roughly 12 million a year. Not per month. But if you want to believe why not call it 30 million. 30 million is completely plausible if you can believe that having to produce more content for the cash shop while receiving ever less revenue made you more profitable. Either way with a 5% loss rate/month for their customers paragon studios would have been in the red by now. That number is if anything very low. Prior to the announcement all but 3 or at most 4 of the servers were little more than ghost towns.

     
     
     
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,742

    You do realise the MMO industry has turned from one which makes MMO’s for long term profit to one which makes MMO’s for short term profit? That MMO’s are now expected to perform more like solo games than multiplayer games when it comes to return of investment and overall profit?

    In light of this, why would any gaming company try to keep an old MMO going? If you are making a profit but only relatively a small one, and you think resources can be put to better use elsewhere why would you keep an old MMO running? Gaming companies are run by suits now, not gamers, wake up and smell the monetary coffee.

    I expect more such closures in the next couple of years, if your old MMO is with a company making new MMO’s it is definitely vulnerable.

  • logandwjlogandwj Member Posts: 25
    Originally posted by Another_Fan

    The city of heroes community was unable to accept reality as it came crashing down around their ears. The game had been in continuous decline for four years prior to the shutdown. The developers had taken to making false and misleading statements to the players, or have you all forgotten Mr. Miller's statement to the PvPers that "PvP was a priority for paragon studios and would be receiving regular updates ?" . They would stonewall with silence when they failed to deliver and even coopted heavy posters into shilling for them. 

     

     

    Another_Fan - Every time I see your posts recently, I keep thinking, "What particular axe is he grinding? Why does he feel the need to spin conspiracy tin-foil hat theories like this?" Well I think I've got the answer. 

     

    You were haunting the City of Heroes official forums for years doing this same thing. Though I didn't post much myself except at the end, I did lurk. And I remember your posts. I didn't catch the very beginning of what got you started down the path to your particular obsession. I only started noticing them last year. But you've very often been this vitriolic and you've always been a doom troll since I began noticing you. But the only intersection with your particular reality is that an end finally did come. You're just taking the opportunity to indulge in shadenfraude at this moment. It's un-earned, to say the least. 

     

    But more than that, you, like jtcgs, seem to have always been extremely angry about something specific. I still don't know for sure about him, but in your case, it appears to be the PVP changes of Issue 13 that you got obsessed with. 

     

    Issue 13 was released Tuesday, December 2, 2008. This was the issue in which Castle's (a dev on the COH team) PVP changes were implemented. And it's widely considered to be the cause of the exodus of most hardcore PVP players from City of Heroes. 

     

    So that's about 4 years back. And that's when you keep saying that City of Heroes has been declining from. Interesting timing, that. I double-checked on Massively where I remembered you posting because the above nudged a memory. And apparently I was correct. Here's a direct quote from you on a Massively article about COH: 

    --------------------

     

    I am sure you are familiar with the incidents surrounding I13 and I14 (Game speak for the 13th and 14th major updates).

    When you have the developers of the game not just lie to a segment of the player base, but actually mislead them into putting effort into defining the future direction of the game. Effort you have no intention of ever actually using and all you are doing is stringing the people along. It isn't surprising that there should be a backlash.

    For those of you that didn't play the game. With I13 the development staff went to the pvp community and asked for ways  to improve pvp gameplay. They never had any intention of implementing what the pvpers wanted. Matter of fact they decided that the focus of all future PvP improvements should be aimed at attracting people that didn't want to PvP.

     

    --------------------

     

    Yes, I do remember those times. And the anger and vitriol from the PVPers. Some of it deserved. I have to admit, I got into PVP somewhat. I wasn't "hardcore". But it was exhilerating. And then I13 happened, and even for a casual PVPer like myself, the changes were pretty onerous. Didn't care for them and the travel power suppression worked against me more than most, since movement with SS/SJ was what I did even before I got into PVP.  So that was pretty frustrating. But you know what? I moved on.

     

    Most City of  Heroes players did. Because there was more than enough to do in the rest of the game. And PVP was the smallest part of it. (And in arena PVP you could even get rid of most of the I13 Nerfs and play at nearly Pre-I13 power levels!)

     

    But apparently you couldn't let it go. Based on what I saw of you on the old boards and posts elsewhere like the above one from massively, you were a hardcore PVPer who couldn't or wouldn't move on and allowed your bitterness to take over to the point of obsession. You started making wild accusations about being "lied to" and accused others on the boards of conspiring against you when they wouldn't agree with you. 

     

    Seriously? Who calls for the head developer of a game studio to be fired over something like PVP changes that don't even affect the majority of COH players? You got banned at least once for flaming. You got banned AGAIN from the official boards a couple of weeks before the games close because of it. That last is quite an achievement considering moderators were a skeleton crew at that time just trying to "keep the lights on" till the end. Much of the board was "Barrens Chat" by that point. But you actually stood out enough from the rest to actually get banned. 

     

    And then you accuse people of conspiracy because you couldn't keep your temper in check? Please. 

     

    I know you want to believe that the I13 PVP changes are the direct cause of COH's demise. But that simply isn't the case. 

     

    Let's discuss some actual numbers here. 

     

    There was in fact a dip in relative sales in 2009. For about four years after the game first came out, the dollar weakened/KrW strengthened which depressed the sales earnings from the PoV of Korea.  Now in 2008 the value of the KrW collapsed going from around 920 to a dollar to 1410 to a dollar a year or so later.  That's a 50% difference.  That's why the game's sales revenues in KrW surged in 2008.  What followed was Korea's central bank stepping in to stabilize it by the end of 2009 to around the same level as it is today and back when the game first came out (1150 +/- 70).


    Now this made it look like the game's sales also collapsed significantly in 2009 from 70% of first year sales to 40%, where in reality, from a dollar perspective, have been on a steady (shallow) decline for nearly 3 years.  There was another sales spike caused by the surge of Going Rogue sales and when that ran it's course in the TTM number it plateaued again at around 30% of the games first 12 months of sales. And then from there it remained steady until the announcement of the closing. 

     

    COH had the usual incremental decline that all MMOs are subject to. Except that COH's "slope" was shallower than most MMOs. It was declining, yes. But not precipitously so. People might leave, but they almost always came BACK. (In fact, I would take a month break or two on occasion myself, then come back and re-activate my sub.) That's the "stick" calculation above. The games sales plateued at 30% of it's sales at launch. If you factor out the bump from GR, the sales were pretty steady for the last two 1/2 years (maybe a very slight decline). Who knows what the highly anticipated Issue 24 would have done for the sales? 

     

    PVP wasn't even in the game at launch, and the nerfing of it was not the cause of the game's death.  PVP or lack of it didn't help or hinder the game. It was always more about the PVE. PVP existed, but it was never the main focus of the game. Some bitter PVPers with an axe to grind might be very disappointed to hear that. But it's simply the facts.

     

    Here recently, you've focussed entirely on trying to "prove" that City of Heroes was a massive failure on every level in terms of business and finances. And you want to obscure your PVP bitterness as much as possible by focussing on any financial aspect that fits with your bias so as not to come off as a raving fanatic.

     

    But you're really not very good at parsing the actual numbers, or in coming off like a rational person. Statements like the above where you accuse "heavy posters" (I suppose specific posters on the old boards with high post counts) of having been "co-opted" by Paragon to "Shill" for them simply make you look like a lunatic with an axe to grind. 

     

    Co-opted? With what, exactly? Are you going to accuse Paragon Studios of paying people real money or goods to post positive things and defend the game? Really? Do you not realize how obsessive and fanatical you sound? Where's your proof? 

     

    I'm actually asking that only half in jest. I'd really like to see what constitutes "proof" to you. I think it would be most interesting if you actually produced numbers, spreadsheets and check stubs. No really - if you've actually GOT something like that, please share! That'd be a bombshell!

     

    But if your "proof" consists of "this person disagrees with me, therefore he must have been paid off!" Well,  then you can be dismissed summarily as a crazy person. 

     

    Seriously, you should get help to overcome your obsession. 4 solid years of this is not healthy. You need to take your own advice and Let. It. Go.

    -Logan
    ----------
    "Wake UP! Time for SCIENCE!"
    -Adam Savage "Mythbusters"
    ----------

  • WraithoneWraithone Member RarePosts: 3,806
    Originally posted by Scot

    You do realise the MMO industry has turned from one which makes MMO’s for long term profit to one which makes MMO’s for short term profit? That MMO’s are now expected to perform more like solo games than multiplayer games when it comes to return of investment and overall profit?

    In light of this, why would any gaming company try to keep an old MMO going? If you are making a profit but only relatively a small one, and you think resources can be put to better use elsewhere why would you keep an old MMO running? Gaming companies are run by suits now, not gamers, wake up and smell the monetary coffee.

    I expect more such closures in the next couple of years, if your old MMO is with a company making new MMO’s it is definitely vulnerable.

    Very, very true.  We are bound to see more of this over the next few years.  Suits have entirely different perspectives than Dev's and gamers do. Hell, I suspect many of them seldom if ever play their own games.  Its just a job to them, andf if the numbers don't add up to their projections/expectations, they have no problem pulling the plug.

    While that may be good for the projects ROI, it can become a toxic attitude over time.  Look at the number of people who seriously dislike NCsoft, SOE, and other such.  Thats like a corrosive DOT, and it can seriously damage a companies reputation, over time.  I suspect we've just started to see some of the backlash in that regard.

    "If you can't kill it, don't make it mad."
  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910


    Originally posted by Wraithone
    Originally posted by Scot You do realise the MMO industry has turned from one which makes MMO’s for long term profit to one which makes MMO’s for short term profit? That MMO’s are now expected to perform more like solo games than multiplayer games when it comes to return of investment and overall profit? In light of this, why would any gaming company try to keep an old MMO going? If you are making a profit but only relatively a small one, and you think resources can be put to better use elsewhere why would you keep an old MMO running? Gaming companies are run by suits now, not gamers, wake up and smell the monetary coffee. I expect more such closures in the next couple of years, if your old MMO is with a company making new MMO’s it is definitely vulnerable.
    Very, very true.  We are bound to see more of this over the next few years.  Suits have entirely different perspectives than Dev's and gamers do. Hell, I suspect many of them seldom if ever play their own games.  Its just a job to them, andf if the numbers don't add up to their projections/expectations, they have no problem pulling the plug.

    While that may be good for the projects ROI, it can become a toxic attitude over time.  Look at the number of people who seriously dislike NCsoft, SOE, and other such.  Thats like a corrosive DOT, and it can seriously damage a companies reputation, over time.  I suspect we've just started to see some of the backlash in that regard.




    Except it doesn't. Outside of forums like these it doesn't seem to have touched GW2. EQNext's biggest issue on these forums is Smedley's design ability, not that SWG closed. Most of those posts seem to be cautiously optimistic.

    There are two things working against closing old games becoming a huge backlash. One is that the old games getting closed are going to be on the way out anyway. They are going to have a dwindling player base so most of the players will have already moved on. Item two is that players are a fickle bunch and generally speaking if you can show them a new game, they'll be happy.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • WicoaWicoa Member UncommonPosts: 1,637

    What matters is that Ncsoft closed a good game with a good crowd following instead of trying any number of basic reputable business strategies to keep the game open.  Some strategies take time and require forward planning, it is clear ncsoft were in a rush, In my view they took the easiest road the fastest and are taking the fastest airway out of the western market.

    Case in point; Ultima and EQ are still going if those old games can keep chugging along there is zero excuse for anything else being shutdown.

  • fivorothfivoroth Member UncommonPosts: 3,916
    Originally posted by Pheonyx

    There's two versions of this story... the truth and NC Soft's side. Have you all forgotten that this is the same company that FORGED A RESIGNATION LETTER FROM RICHARD GARRIOTT TO SHUT DOWN TABULA RASA? Sorry, but they only put out that statement to try to save face.

     

    Those numbers that source gave seem to be correct, because the costs of the server hardware were paid off by the time City of Villains came about (ie. BEFORE NC Soft bought City of Heroes IP outright). The only costs involved was electricity for them and some staff onsite in Austin, which NC Austin ate anyway because that is where the servers for the US servers for their other games (like Aion) are located. NC Austin didn't lay anyone off when CoH shuttered, they just had a little less work to do.

    50K a year average salary per employee is rather high in the gaming industry... try closer to 30K average and you will be closer; 50K average per employee sounds right if you are Blizzard/Activision, not a smaller development house like Paragon Studios/NCSoft.

    What? The average salary is 30k? What's the point of working in this industry if you earn so little?

    Anyways if it was shut down, then it didn't make sense to keep running the game financially speaking. Even if you are making a a slight (although I doubt it) profit, it is always worth asking if it is worth the resources you are putting in...opportunity costs etc. This game had no growth potential, wasn't making any money. Why would you want to keep it? 

    Although that's my line of thought as someone who works in the financial services industry, so I tend to look from the financial perspective of things.

    Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.

  • jimdandy26jimdandy26 Member Posts: 527
    Originally posted by fivoroth
    Originally posted by Pheonyx

    There's two versions of this story... the truth and NC Soft's side. Have you all forgotten that this is the same company that FORGED A RESIGNATION LETTER FROM RICHARD GARRIOTT TO SHUT DOWN TABULA RASA? Sorry, but they only put out that statement to try to save face.

     

    Those numbers that source gave seem to be correct, because the costs of the server hardware were paid off by the time City of Villains came about (ie. BEFORE NC Soft bought City of Heroes IP outright). The only costs involved was electricity for them and some staff onsite in Austin, which NC Austin ate anyway because that is where the servers for the US servers for their other games (like Aion) are located. NC Austin didn't lay anyone off when CoH shuttered, they just had a little less work to do.

    50K a year average salary per employee is rather high in the gaming industry... try closer to 30K average and you will be closer; 50K average per employee sounds right if you are Blizzard/Activision, not a smaller development house like Paragon Studios/NCSoft.

    What? The average salary is 30k? What's the point of working in this industry if you earn so little?

    Anyways if it was shut down, then it didn't make sense to keep running the game financially speaking. Even if you are making a a slight (although I doubt it) profit, it is always worth asking if it is worth the resources you are putting in...opportunity costs etc. This game had no growth potential, wasn't making any money. Why would you want to keep it? 

    Although that's my line of thought as someone who works in the financial services industry, so I tend to look from the financial perspective of things.

    I agree with your reasoning completely. Unfortunetly the vocal fanboys do not :(

    also, this http://www.gamecareerguide.com/features/1108/game_developer_salary_survey_2012.php rather clearly debunks his numbers.

    I did battle with ignorance today, and ignorance won.

    To exercise power costs effort and demands courage. That is why so many fail to assert rights to which they are perfectly entitled - because a right is a kind of power but they are too lazy or too cowardly to exercise it. The virtues which cloak these faults are called patience and forbearance.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910


    Originally posted by Wicoa
    What matters is that Ncsoft closed a good game with a good crowd following instead of trying any number of basic reputable business strategies to keep the game open.  Some strategies take time and require forward planning, it is clear ncsoft were in a rush, In my view they took the easiest road the fastest and are taking the fastest airway out of the western market.Case in point; Ultima and EQ are still going if those old games can keep chugging along there is zero excuse for anything else being shutdown.

    Both UO and EQ were successful when they released. CoH wasn't all that successful. Especially compared to other MMOs released around the same time. Both UO and EQ have some future potential. UO because it started the industry and EQ because it was successful and has now lead to EQNext. CoH and Paragon Studios had no demonstrable future potential. They had current profitability and that was it.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • WraithoneWraithone Member RarePosts: 3,806
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by Wraithone

    Originally posted by Scot You do realise the MMO industry has turned from one which makes MMO’s for long term profit to one which makes MMO’s for short term profit? That MMO’s are now expected to perform more like solo games than multiplayer games when it comes to return of investment and overall profit? In light of this, why would any gaming company try to keep an old MMO going? If you are making a profit but only relatively a small one, and you think resources can be put to better use elsewhere why would you keep an old MMO running? Gaming companies are run by suits now, not gamers, wake up and smell the monetary coffee. I expect more such closures in the next couple of years, if your old MMO is with a company making new MMO’s it is definitely vulnerable.
    Very, very true.  We are bound to see more of this over the next few years.  Suits have entirely different perspectives than Dev's and gamers do. Hell, I suspect many of them seldom if ever play their own games.  Its just a job to them, andf if the numbers don't add up to their projections/expectations, they have no problem pulling the plug.

     

    While that may be good for the projects ROI, it can become a toxic attitude over time.  Look at the number of people who seriously dislike NCsoft, SOE, and other such.  Thats like a corrosive DOT, and it can seriously damage a companies reputation, over time.  I suspect we've just started to see some of the backlash in that regard.



    Except it doesn't. Outside of forums like these it doesn't seem to have touched GW2. EQNext's biggest issue on these forums is Smedley's design ability, not that SWG closed. Most of those posts seem to be cautiously optimistic.

    There are two things working against closing old games becoming a huge backlash. One is that the old games getting closed are going to be on the way out anyway. They are going to have a dwindling player base so most of the players will have already moved on. Item two is that players are a fickle bunch and generally speaking if you can show them a new game, they'll be happy.

     

    Why should it really impact GW2? Its not my type of game, but many seem to like it.  This type of thing tends to take time, and repeated abuse.  Thats why I stated its a DOT. Never under estimate the impact of bad word of mouth.  Especially when the facts involved can simply be looked up, as they can be these days.

    Way too many suits can't seem to understand that reality. Which is odd, since its one of the first things one learns in marketing, and branding.  But then with a short term focus (what have you done for me this quarter) thats par for the course.

    NCsofts attitude will eventually cost them.  Now that they are involved with Nexon, things are not likely to go nearly as well for them in the western markets.  But eventually, even the eastern markets will start to become less tolerant of their usual antics. Its just a matter of time.

     

    "If you can't kill it, don't make it mad."
  • fivorothfivoroth Member UncommonPosts: 3,916
    Originally posted by Wraithone
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by Wraithone

    Originally posted by Scot You do realise the MMO industry has turned from one which makes MMO’s for long term profit to one which makes MMO’s for short term profit? That MMO’s are now expected to perform more like solo games than multiplayer games when it comes to return of investment and overall profit? In light of this, why would any gaming company try to keep an old MMO going? If you are making a profit but only relatively a small one, and you think resources can be put to better use elsewhere why would you keep an old MMO running? Gaming companies are run by suits now, not gamers, wake up and smell the monetary coffee. I expect more such closures in the next couple of years, if your old MMO is with a company making new MMO’s it is definitely vulnerable.
    Very, very true.  We are bound to see more of this over the next few years.  Suits have entirely different perspectives than Dev's and gamers do. Hell, I suspect many of them seldom if ever play their own games.  Its just a job to them, andf if the numbers don't add up to their projections/expectations, they have no problem pulling the plug.

     

    While that may be good for the projects ROI, it can become a toxic attitude over time.  Look at the number of people who seriously dislike NCsoft, SOE, and other such.  Thats like a corrosive DOT, and it can seriously damage a companies reputation, over time.  I suspect we've just started to see some of the backlash in that regard.



    Except it doesn't. Outside of forums like these it doesn't seem to have touched GW2. EQNext's biggest issue on these forums is Smedley's design ability, not that SWG closed. Most of those posts seem to be cautiously optimistic.

    There are two things working against closing old games becoming a huge backlash. One is that the old games getting closed are going to be on the way out anyway. They are going to have a dwindling player base so most of the players will have already moved on. Item two is that players are a fickle bunch and generally speaking if you can show them a new game, they'll be happy.

     

    Why should it really impact GW2? Its not my type of game, but many seem to like it.  This type of thing tends to take time, and repeated abuse.  Thats why I stated its a DOT. Never under estimate the impact of bad word of mouth.  Especially when the facts involved can simply be looked up, as they can be these days.

    Way too many suits can't seem to understand that reality. Which is odd, since its one of the first things one learns in marketing, and branding.  But then with a short term focus (what have you done for me this quarter) thats par for the course.

    NCsofts attitude will eventually cost them.  Now that they are involved with Nexon, things are not likely to go nearly as well for them in the western markets.  But eventually, even the eastern markets will start to become less tolerant of their usual antics. Its just a matter of time.

     

    Which Business School did you go to? This was definitely not one of the "first" things which I learnt in my marketing classes. Do you know the BCG matrix? Do you want to guess which category CoH falls under? Also a lot of marketing driven companies "consolidate" their brand portfolios by eliminating brands which are underperforming. 

    Keeping this game neither makes marketing sense nor finance sense.

    Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.

  • WildFire15WildFire15 Member Posts: 12
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by Wicoa
    What matters is that Ncsoft closed a good game with a good crowd following instead of trying any number of basic reputable business strategies to keep the game open.  Some strategies take time and require forward planning, it is clear ncsoft were in a rush, In my view they took the easiest road the fastest and are taking the fastest airway out of the western market.

     

    Case in point; Ultima and EQ are still going if those old games can keep chugging along there is zero excuse for anything else being shutdown.



    Both UO and EQ were successful when they released. CoH wasn't all that successful. Especially compared to other MMOs released around the same time. Both UO and EQ have some future potential. UO because it started the industry and EQ because it was successful and has now lead to EQNext. CoH and Paragon Studios had no demonstrable future potential. They had current profitability and that was it.

     

    Seriously? UO and EQ had pretty much no competition upon release while City of Heroes, with practically no marketting, was released not long before World of Warcraft. Huge marketting budget, well established name in PC gaming. 

    In WoW's shadow, while competitors were desperately jumping at the impossible dream of being a 'WoW Killer', CoH kept going strong in it's own niche. It was in dire need of a sequel (Paragon did do some pretty impressive things with that old game engine, but it did need replacing), but it kept going and could have easily gone onto 10 years or more. After all, UO and EQ are still with us 14 and 12 years later respectively. Hell, Dark Age of Camelot's still going and that wasn't even well known of in 2001 when it came out (though you may have to correct me on that. I was aware of it but not even vaguly interested).

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910


    Originally posted by fivoroth
    Originally posted by Wraithone Originally posted by lizardbones   Originally posted by Wraithone Originally posted by Scot You do realise the MMO industry has turned from one which makes MMO’s for long term profit to one which makes MMO’s for short term profit? That MMO’s are now expected to perform more like solo games than multiplayer games when it comes to return of investment and overall profit? In light of this, why would any gaming company try to keep an old MMO going? If you are making a profit but only relatively a small one, and you think resources can be put to better use elsewhere why would you keep an old MMO running? Gaming companies are run by suits now, not gamers, wake up and smell the monetary coffee. I expect more such closures in the next couple of years, if your old MMO is with a company making new MMO’s it is definitely vulnerable.
    Very, very true.  We are bound to see more of this over the next few years.  Suits have entirely different perspectives than Dev's and gamers do. Hell, I suspect many of them seldom if ever play their own games.  Its just a job to them, andf if the numbers don't add up to their projections/expectations, they have no problem pulling the plug.   While that may be good for the projects ROI, it can become a toxic attitude over time.  Look at the number of people who seriously dislike NCsoft, SOE, and other such.  Thats like a corrosive DOT, and it can seriously damage a companies reputation, over time.  I suspect we've just started to see some of the backlash in that regard.
    Except it doesn't. Outside of forums like these it doesn't seem to have touched GW2. EQNext's biggest issue on these forums is Smedley's design ability, not that SWG closed. Most of those posts seem to be cautiously optimistic. There are two things working against closing old games becoming a huge backlash. One is that the old games getting closed are going to be on the way out anyway. They are going to have a dwindling player base so most of the players will have already moved on. Item two is that players are a fickle bunch and generally speaking if you can show them a new game, they'll be happy.  
    Why should it really impact GW2? Its not my type of game, but many seem to like it.  This type of thing tends to take time, and repeated abuse.  Thats why I stated its a DOT. Never under estimate the impact of bad word of mouth.  Especially when the facts involved can simply be looked up, as they can be these days. Way too many suits can't seem to understand that reality. Which is odd, since its one of the first things one learns in marketing, and branding.  But then with a short term focus (what have you done for me this quarter) thats par for the course. NCsofts attitude will eventually cost them.  Now that they are involved with Nexon, things are not likely to go nearly as well for them in the western markets.  But eventually, even the eastern markets will start to become less tolerant of their usual antics. Its just a matter of time.  
    Which Business School did you go to? This was definitely not one of the "first" things which I learnt in my marketing classes. Do you know the BCG matrix? Do you want to guess which category CoH falls under? Also a lot of marketing driven companies "consolidate" their brand portfolios by eliminating brands which are underperforming. 

    Keeping this game neither makes marketing sense nor finance sense.




    Is whatever you just said related to people playing CoH, but not playing Aion or GW2? I was thinking about that after some other post of mine. If people who play CoH weren't likely to play anything else that NC Soft had anyway, then the game didn't contribute as much to the company as other games. It wouldn't be the only thing to consider, but it would certainly be a contributing factor.

    Now, I don't discount the idea that bad press is bad, but it's like everything else. It has to show that it makes a difference or a business can safely ignore it. Other factors around the game could outweigh the bad press.

    I do think the way they closed the game was in poor taste, and they could have closed the game down in a more palatable manner, but I don't think they way they closed the game down is going to hurt them, and will probably help them if they are looking for additional investors.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910


    Originally posted by WildFire15
    Originally posted by lizardbones   Originally posted by Wicoa What matters is that Ncsoft closed a good game with a good crowd following instead of trying any number of basic reputable business strategies to keep the game open.  Some strategies take time and require forward planning, it is clear ncsoft were in a rush, In my view they took the easiest road the fastest and are taking the fastest airway out of the western market.   Case in point; Ultima and EQ are still going if those old games can keep chugging along there is zero excuse for anything else being shutdown.
    Both UO and EQ were successful when they released. CoH wasn't all that successful. Especially compared to other MMOs released around the same time. Both UO and EQ have some future potential. UO because it started the industry and EQ because it was successful and has now lead to EQNext. CoH and Paragon Studios had no demonstrable future potential. They had current profitability and that was it.  
    Seriously? UO and EQ had pretty much no competition upon release while City of Heroes, with practically no marketting, was released not long before World of Warcraft. Huge marketting budget, well established name in PC gaming. 

    In WoW's shadow, while competitors were desperately jumping at the impossible dream of being a 'WoW Killer', CoH kept going strong in it's own niche. It was in dire need of a sequel (Paragon did do some pretty impressive things with that old game engine, but it did need replacing), but it kept going and could have easily gone onto 10 years or more. After all, UO and EQ are still with us 14 and 12 years later respectively. Hell, Dark Age of Camelot's still going and that wasn't even well known of in 2001 when it came out (though you may have to correct me on that. I was aware of it but not even vaguly interested).




    I heard about CoH. I had no idea what it was, because I had no idea what MMOs were, but I did hear about them. I only heard about UO because my uncle wanted me to play and I didn't hear about EQ until after I started playing WoW. CoH did have marketing. They even had marketing outside of the Video Game market, which other games did not have. The game just didn't catch on.

    You mentioned CoH's real problem (I think). It was a niche game. The people who played CoH didn't play anything else, and weren't likely to play anything else other than maybe a CoH2. It wouldn't matter how much advertising it got, it would always be a niche game with a small audience that would not grow and the audience would probably not play anything else. It was too successful to sell cheap, so no indie publishers could buy it, but at the same time it had no future potential so no large publishers would want it. It was the odd man out.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910


    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    Originally posted by fivoroth Originally posted by Pheonyx There's two versions of this story... the truth and NC Soft's side. Have you all forgotten that this is the same company that FORGED A RESIGNATION LETTER FROM RICHARD GARRIOTT TO SHUT DOWN TABULA RASA? Sorry, but they only put out that statement to try to save face.   Those numbers that source gave seem to be correct, because the costs of the server hardware were paid off by the time City of Villains came about (ie. BEFORE NC Soft bought City of Heroes IP outright). The only costs involved was electricity for them and some staff onsite in Austin, which NC Austin ate anyway because that is where the servers for the US servers for their other games (like Aion) are located. NC Austin didn't lay anyone off when CoH shuttered, they just had a little less work to do. 50K a year average salary per employee is rather high in the gaming industry... try closer to 30K average and you will be closer; 50K average per employee sounds right if you are Blizzard/Activision, not a smaller development house like Paragon Studios/NCSoft.
    What? The average salary is 30k? What's the point of working in this industry if you earn so little? Anyways if it was shut down, then it didn't make sense to keep running the game financially speaking. Even if you are making a a slight (although I doubt it) profit, it is always worth asking if it is worth the resources you are putting in...opportunity costs etc. This game had no growth potential, wasn't making any money. Why would you want to keep it?  Although that's my line of thought as someone who works in the financial services industry, so I tend to look from the financial perspective of things.
    I agree with your reasoning completely. Unfortunetly the vocal fanboys do not :(

    also, this http://www.gamecareerguide.com/features/1108/game_developer_salary_survey_2012.php rather clearly debunks his numbers.




    The yearly salary for game developers has gotten pretty good. It's the hourly rate that's horrible.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

Sign In or Register to comment.