Originally posted by Torvaldr The hype problem is solved by individuals managing themselves and taking responsiblity for how they react and being accountable for that.
This is a problem in today's "I'm a victim!" society. People are held less and less accountable for their own actions everyday. There is always someone else to blame.
It is becoming more rare to find a human being who knows that they are responsible for their own actions. Most are just sheep, blindly following what the lead bell wearer says.
...and the hype train leaves on track 4
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I think newer gamers don't have the experience older more wise gurus have because they have not experienced the falls we have. I played WoW for two months solid after it came out. I have a friend who still plays it to this day and he started playing when I did. He told me so much about it and we talked about it so much that it just died in me.
I have tried picking it up again several times. Really it's not that it's boring or lacking in interesting things to do. Personally it's because I don't like feeling trapped in a role within a group. After I found Blizzard pitching it like it was the messiah I started treating it like the plague.
Anyway what I'm getting at is I was a solid Blizzard fan D1-D2-WC1-WC2-SC1, but it's like going to a car lot. Some people have that SELL ME A CAR PLEASE!!! look on their face when they get there. Others like myself feel if you come at us throwing details over and over in our face then telling us what we like in something we're walking away quickly with frowns. It's a mentality thing in my opinion.
I've seen enough games over the course I can tell off early footage whether I'd be interested or not. Some times I'm surprised or let down, but rarely. It all comes with time and experience like buying cars or quality store items. You either don't care and will pay a discounted price for toilet paper that is so thin you have to use eight sheets just to wipe with sandpaper texture, or you can get the good stuff and use two sheets which leaves your butt feeling pampered. In the case of hype on games your paying for the good paper and getting the stuff you can see through.
The young and ignorant buy things pitched by a big mouth standing on a box in the street. The old and experienced buy reputable items and still some times get burned but feel the sting less. Experience comes with time and choices. You can't teach it and you can't buy it, but it will cost you in time just the same. If you learn from it then it's time well spent. If your still making the same ignorant choices then your wasting your time.
I suggest you read "Psychology of the masses" by Gustave le Bon. Basically what you see with hype is that the more people you reach, the more will follow. Humans just work like that. The bigger the mass becomes, the easier it is to manipulate (Steve Jobs was awesome at this).
Unfortunately, i think this approach from marketing and ultimately the management of corporations is short-sighted. They try to get the most out of the initial sales to satisfy their shareholders, and when those have gotten their investment back they don't care all that much about the product. It's done, next.
Alltho I admit its funny to watch developers in videos get all excited talk about features of their game like they are the holy grail. Let's call it slightly different from what is allready there, hange it a bit and people will love it! It's totally awesome and not a reinvention of the wheel at all!
Originally posted by Sovrath The way I look at it is companies have to advertise. What's more, if they have investors they need to do whatever they can to build hype and get people buying. If they don't they can get sued for not doing whatever they could to get a return on the investors' money.
It's up to players to be responsible consumers, do their due dilligence and not approach every game like a kid on christmas morning.
It's nice to get excited about things but it's also nice to approach the world with eyes wide open and realize that in the end you are responsible for your own well being. And wallet.
Very well stated and to the point. I could not agree more with you on this.
Couldn't disagree more with you both.
When I was working in marketing and advertising back in the late 80's it used to be a fairly well understood maxim "The more advertising, the less quality..." and words to that effect. You state "companies have to advertise" yet there are millions who don't advertise at all in the way we are talking about here. Most of those rely on word of mouth, or are intergrated enough into their market that advertising is just a waste of money. Rather than coercion by force of sensory bombardment, many, many companies around the world just provide quality goods, and are know for it.
I am not arguing that your statement is inaccurate because there is no case for advertising and marketing, but that it is inaccurate because it is contrary to the lived experience of many companies around the world. Will MMORPG abandon their model? Why should they, their customers, no matter how temporary, are behaving just how they want them, and as the journalists that report about them get caught up in the hype and bias just as much as the customers, abondoning any critical thinking, but that is another story.
The point being is that companies need to keep their products in the mind of the consumers. That could be "anything". It could be a billboard or a placement in a movie.
As for mmorpg's, to be honest, game companies really don't do more than show a bit here and there. it's the players who grab this stuff and run with it to some sort of monsterous conclusion.
GW2 wasn't "hyped" in my opinion. They just showed what they showed, increased information before it was released. I didn't think the advertising was any more overwhelming and in your face than any other product. And yet the players went nuts.Hence my last statement.
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If you talk about it, you're hyping it. We're all hyping this article merely by responding to it. If we said nothing... it fall off the website and never be seen or heard from again. Once anyone replies, says anything, it's been hyped. Get a bunch of people to do the same, you make it go viral. Did it warrant such attention? Does such attention mean anything? Does hype and viral mean anything? The answer to all of these questions is no. It only has value if you give it value. The moment you hit reply, you gave it value... for good or bad. Keep replying and this could become the article of the year... again, hype and viral have nothing to do with quality or expectations. It's just cannon fodder.
mmorpgs tend to require 000's of players and above at launch: Jeff Strain said the number is about 150,000 at least back in 2007: So hype and viral are needed for mmorpgs to be financially successful and population working.
Unfortunately, indescriminately bringing a huge crowd of random people is just asking for people to find the crowd "not their type" and not a good setting of expectations leading to "When fanbois go bad":
well, yet another addition to what many may see as"beating dead horse". Here is my take on the "virility/hype" syndrome. first to qualify my post,these are two very necesssary ingrediens to
advertising/marketing a new protuct of any kind. In the case of mmorpg games, developers hope to catch perspective customers/players during the production stages thru virility/hype. That being said,
these two ingredients can also create a very reverse effect as well. virility/hype tends to set up a few very scary concepts. Through game concept videos,trailers, and other types of venues for developers to get their "visions" out there to the masses, creates in many cases,false hopes and instills visions in the viewer's minds of something that is purely subjective based on what the viewer
draws from the virility/hype that is placed in front of them.
Then when the said product is released, al;l these effected by the virility/hype jump on board and one fo two scenerios take place. one, they play like wild fire,expecting to get the same excitement/fullfillment that the hype gave them. then after basically force feeding themselves for a seemingly endless period of time,they realize that they have basically become disappointed based on the virility/hype. Scenerio two is quite common as well, where prosective players become part of the virility aspect,based on how the hype engulfed their player expectations. they then pound tyhe forums, discussion groups for endless months during development hoping their feedback effects the end product. then the product is released, they grab a copy and play it endlessly hoping that what they expected to get was what they acrtually recieved. then in the end.. many become disappointed im the end.
Hence,both scenerios create a situation where players from both afformentioned sides find it increasingly hard to log in. this all being said, Virility/hype are both a necessary evil to a games
conception,production & eventual release. one can only hope that they both are dealt out in measured doses in a way that gives the correct image that is desired by both devs & end users
Well there is simple way to stop virality and hype... People need to start to think. I see it everyday in gw2 forums. People complain that gw2 is not fun for them because.... for example: it doesn't contain raids. Everyone and their mothers knew from very beginning there are not going to be raids in gw2...
If people stopped buying what everyone else buys these days and started to look at what they are buying and think if they actually want it, that would fix this problem. Bad thing is, even if it's simple solution, we all know it's also impossible solution
Alas, as methods of engineering viral hype become more successful, it inevitably undermines the value of real honest-to-goodness positive word of mouth.
As consumers, we have to stop promoting specific game titles.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
If players have been reading posts on this site they should know about hype, its beguiling nature and unfullfilled promises.
Like other posters have said the solution is simple, players need to stop and think. How many times I have said do not preorder, I have lost count. Reviews not preview hype is what you should base your decisions on.
Originally posted by bigsmiff I cannot figure out why I can't get into GW2. I log in and play for about 5 minutes and I log back out for a week or so...and try it again the next week. I really want to like it since it is a no subscription AAA.
^
I'm with you bigs on that one.
I have a whole list of games on Steam that I just stare at for 5-10 minutes sometimes and contemplate on which one to play.
Funny, when I bought them I was raring to go. I would play them for hours and hours, then stop.
The only one I have subcribed to and unsubcribed to was WoW. Many times I have thought I was going to get back into it, only to find out, I got bored after awhile.
I cannot find a game to keep my interest. Now I am heavy into Farcry 3 and the Alan Wake series. Go figure
Maybe I am just getting tired of mmorpg gaming............NOT
Viral is when word of that something spreads on its own. One person gets infected and passes it on to the next.
Hype comes from some where, in this case, a marketing department.
Now granted fans can "Hype" there favorite game but their reach tends to be limited. It gets a bit more fuzzy when the "Hype" is coming from a successful blog site or a media site such as this. In general I would say that the more power an entity has to create a stir the more it is hype and the less it is viral marketing. Remember, viral implies that it is being passed subject to subject though more or less direct contact. This is all very fuzzy stuff of course.
Of course Trolls and Fanbois will also misuse the terms either to push their point or just out of ignorance.
But when the impetus comes from a company's website/marketing, then clearly that is Hype. And when a company purposefully tries to start a "Viral" campaign it should be considered biological terrorism and they should be treated accordingly.
Are MMO reviewers finally getting that they're incompetent (blinded by too little actual gameplay before review release and hype) in reviewing games?
Why can't you guys be more like good movie reviewers where you start with the movie being bad (even if you're Steven Spielberg) and having to prove the merit of the film?
Originally posted by Torvaldr The hype problem is solved by individuals managing themselves and taking responsiblity for how they react and being accountable for that.
This is a problem in today's "I'm a victim!" society. People are held less and less accountable for their own actions everyday. There is always someone else to blame.It is becoming more rare to find a human being who knows that they are responsible for their own actions. Most are just sheep, blindly following what the lead bell wearer says....and the hype train leaves on track 4
Yeah, it's weird to me. There is this huge fallout from TOR, GW2, and a lesser extent some of the other recent releases and boom the next hype cycle pops around and it starts over with the next wave (TESO, FFXIV reboot, Defiance, etc). It's not that any of the older games or upcoming releases are bad, but that the drama cycle never seems to end, yet there is shock and indignation at the end of each. I don't understand that.
I think a lot of it is players wanting "the next big thing" that we can delve into and enjoy. The market is so saturated with sub-par games right now we tend to grasp at almost anything that has maybe one or two features we may like and blow it all way out of proportion.
I think there is also a little bit of "I told you so!" mentality at work. Many players want to be first on the bandwagon and will overly power the hype machine just so they can say, "I told you so!" The same goes for the nay-sayers.
Then again, some people just thrive on drama...
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
The reason SWG pre CU was the only MMO I played for a long time is very simple. World was always changing by players who built homes, houses, shops, guild halls which eventualy grew into player towns with its own politics and elections for governor. Once you've seen all quests in a MMO there is nothing that can keep you entertained more than randomness caused by player generated content. In SWG I never felt I was doing same thing over and over again. Repeating same content is now set in stone with MMOs and its called endgame. That term didnt even exist back then.
Comments
It is becoming more rare to find a human being who knows that they are responsible for their own actions. Most are just sheep, blindly following what the lead bell wearer says.
...and the hype train leaves on track 4
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I think newer gamers don't have the experience older more wise gurus have because they have not experienced the falls we have. I played WoW for two months solid after it came out. I have a friend who still plays it to this day and he started playing when I did. He told me so much about it and we talked about it so much that it just died in me.
I have tried picking it up again several times. Really it's not that it's boring or lacking in interesting things to do. Personally it's because I don't like feeling trapped in a role within a group. After I found Blizzard pitching it like it was the messiah I started treating it like the plague.
Anyway what I'm getting at is I was a solid Blizzard fan D1-D2-WC1-WC2-SC1, but it's like going to a car lot. Some people have that SELL ME A CAR PLEASE!!! look on their face when they get there. Others like myself feel if you come at us throwing details over and over in our face then telling us what we like in something we're walking away quickly with frowns. It's a mentality thing in my opinion.
I've seen enough games over the course I can tell off early footage whether I'd be interested or not. Some times I'm surprised or let down, but rarely. It all comes with time and experience like buying cars or quality store items. You either don't care and will pay a discounted price for toilet paper that is so thin you have to use eight sheets just to wipe with sandpaper texture, or you can get the good stuff and use two sheets which leaves your butt feeling pampered. In the case of hype on games your paying for the good paper and getting the stuff you can see through.
The young and ignorant buy things pitched by a big mouth standing on a box in the street. The old and experienced buy reputable items and still some times get burned but feel the sting less. Experience comes with time and choices. You can't teach it and you can't buy it, but it will cost you in time just the same. If you learn from it then it's time well spent. If your still making the same ignorant choices then your wasting your time.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
"Love can be innocent and can be sweet, but sometimes about as nice as rotting meat."
"Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day!"
I suggest you read "Psychology of the masses" by Gustave le Bon. Basically what you see with hype is that the more people you reach, the more will follow. Humans just work like that. The bigger the mass becomes, the easier it is to manipulate (Steve Jobs was awesome at this).
Unfortunately, i think this approach from marketing and ultimately the management of corporations is short-sighted. They try to get the most out of the initial sales to satisfy their shareholders, and when those have gotten their investment back they don't care all that much about the product. It's done, next.
Alltho I admit its funny to watch developers in videos get all excited talk about features of their game like they are the holy grail. Let's call it slightly different from what is allready there, hange it a bit and people will love it! It's totally awesome and not a reinvention of the wheel at all!
I guess i am a bitter old vet of MMOs
The point being is that companies need to keep their products in the mind of the consumers. That could be "anything". It could be a billboard or a placement in a movie.
As for mmorpg's, to be honest, game companies really don't do more than show a bit here and there. it's the players who grab this stuff and run with it to some sort of monsterous conclusion.
GW2 wasn't "hyped" in my opinion. They just showed what they showed, increased information before it was released. I didn't think the advertising was any more overwhelming and in your face than any other product. And yet the players went nuts.Hence my last statement.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
mmorpgs tend to require 000's of players and above at launch: Jeff Strain said the number is about 150,000 at least back in 2007: So hype and viral are needed for mmorpgs to be financially successful and population working.
Unfortunately, indescriminately bringing a huge crowd of random people is just asking for people to find the crowd "not their type" and not a good setting of expectations leading to "When fanbois go bad":
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
well, yet another addition to what many may see as"beating dead horse". Here is my take on the "virility/hype" syndrome. first to qualify my post,these are two very necesssary ingrediens to
advertising/marketing a new protuct of any kind. In the case of mmorpg games, developers hope to catch perspective customers/players during the production stages thru virility/hype. That being said,
these two ingredients can also create a very reverse effect as well. virility/hype tends to set up a few very scary concepts. Through game concept videos,trailers, and other types of venues for developers to get their "visions" out there to the masses, creates in many cases,false hopes and instills visions in the viewer's minds of something that is purely subjective based on what the viewer
draws from the virility/hype that is placed in front of them.
Then when the said product is released, al;l these effected by the virility/hype jump on board and one fo two scenerios take place. one, they play like wild fire,expecting to get the same excitement/fullfillment that the hype gave them. then after basically force feeding themselves for a seemingly endless period of time,they realize that they have basically become disappointed based on the virility/hype. Scenerio two is quite common as well, where prosective players become part of the virility aspect,based on how the hype engulfed their player expectations. they then pound tyhe forums, discussion groups for endless months during development hoping their feedback effects the end product. then the product is released, they grab a copy and play it endlessly hoping that what they expected to get was what they acrtually recieved. then in the end.. many become disappointed im the end.
Hence,both scenerios create a situation where players from both afformentioned sides find it increasingly hard to log in. this all being said, Virility/hype are both a necessary evil to a games
conception,production & eventual release. one can only hope that they both are dealt out in measured doses in a way that gives the correct image that is desired by both devs & end users
Well there is simple way to stop virality and hype... People need to start to think. I see it everyday in gw2 forums. People complain that gw2 is not fun for them because.... for example: it doesn't contain raids. Everyone and their mothers knew from very beginning there are not going to be raids in gw2...
If people stopped buying what everyone else buys these days and started to look at what they are buying and think if they actually want it, that would fix this problem. Bad thing is, even if it's simple solution, we all know it's also impossible solution
As consumers, we have to stop promoting specific game titles.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
If players have been reading posts on this site they should know about hype, its beguiling nature and unfullfilled promises.
Like other posters have said the solution is simple, players need to stop and think. How many times I have said do not preorder, I have lost count. Reviews not preview hype is what you should base your decisions on.
^
I'm with you bigs on that one.
I have a whole list of games on Steam that I just stare at for 5-10 minutes sometimes and contemplate on which one to play.
Funny, when I bought them I was raring to go. I would play them for hours and hours, then stop.
The only one I have subcribed to and unsubcribed to was WoW. Many times I have thought I was going to get back into it, only to find out, I got bored after awhile.
I cannot find a game to keep my interest. Now I am heavy into Farcry 3 and the Alan Wake series. Go figure
Maybe I am just getting tired of mmorpg gaming............NOT
I think I am a game junkie
As the names should imply...
Viral is when word of that something spreads on its own. One person gets infected and passes it on to the next.
Hype comes from some where, in this case, a marketing department.
Now granted fans can "Hype" there favorite game but their reach tends to be limited. It gets a bit more fuzzy when the "Hype" is coming from a successful blog site or a media site such as this. In general I would say that the more power an entity has to create a stir the more it is hype and the less it is viral marketing. Remember, viral implies that it is being passed subject to subject though more or less direct contact. This is all very fuzzy stuff of course.
Of course Trolls and Fanbois will also misuse the terms either to push their point or just out of ignorance.
But when the impetus comes from a company's website/marketing, then clearly that is Hype. And when a company purposefully tries to start a "Viral" campaign it should be considered biological terrorism and they should be treated accordingly.
All die, so die well.
Are MMO reviewers finally getting that they're incompetent (blinded by too little actual gameplay before review release and hype) in reviewing games?
Why can't you guys be more like good movie reviewers where you start with the movie being bad (even if you're Steven Spielberg) and having to prove the merit of the film?
Some how I feel my locked thread on debunking hype fits this discussion well.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5466106#5466106
Too bad my thread got locked for some strange reason.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
I think there is also a little bit of "I told you so!" mentality at work. Many players want to be first on the bandwagon and will overly power the hype machine just so they can say, "I told you so!" The same goes for the nay-sayers.
Then again, some people just thrive on drama...
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
The reason SWG pre CU was the only MMO I played for a long time is very simple. World was always changing by players who built homes, houses, shops, guild halls which eventualy grew into player towns with its own politics and elections for governor. Once you've seen all quests in a MMO there is nothing that can keep you entertained more than randomness caused by player generated content. In SWG I never felt I was doing same thing over and over again. Repeating same content is now set in stone with MMOs and its called endgame. That term didnt even exist back then.