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[General Article] City of Heroes: Profitable or Not?

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  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,221Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ozmodan

    Well the basic tenet to remember here, don't expect to play NCSoft titles for long, they will shutter the game as soon as they lose their popularity.  I can still play my first avatar that I created in UO in 1997.  There is a growing list of NCSoft titles that that cannot be done anymore.  Certainly a consideration for what games you do purchase and play.

    One of the reasons I did not purchase GW2.  

    http://www.gamedynamo.com/article/showarticle/571/en/EA_Releases_Annual_Online_Server_Shutdown_List

    www.gamespot.com/news/ea-shutting-down-online-services-for-12-games-6401956

    EA has shut down so many games online component.  That is why I've never played UO or bought into it.

    Pretty much I can't play any games because every publisher is shite and shuts down games.

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,221Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Wraithone
    Originally posted by lizardbones

    Originally posted by Pheonyx

    Originally posted by lizardbones It's not a huge mystery. Even if the game was profitable, it wasn't profitable enough. It would be getting steadily less profitable over time too. It doesn't look like there were plans or incentive to create a CoH2 either. They decided to cut their losses before they became losses or when they actually turned from profits to losses and focus on what they knew they could focus on.
    Actually, Matt Miller said that they approached NC Soft to do City of Heroes 2, and NC Soft said "No".
    What is your point? If CoH was not performing well enough to keep running, why would NC Soft want to bank roll a sequel? The game was never that big to begin with, why would they want to spend a lot of time and effort on it?

    ** edit **
    And how many different accounts are going to get created to argue about CoH? Geez. The game is dead, it's not coming back and NC Soft isn't going to suffer because they closed the game. Get over it.

    You (and NCsoft) might turn out to have a nasty surprise about that last one. Some of the people I've run across in regards to this strike me as first order fanatics. The type of people who take something like this VERY personally, carry a grudge for years and years, and are well connected through face book and other such. No company needs that type of bad PR.

    These types of things can snowball behind the scenes, until they go viral.  It could impact NCsofts business opportunites in the west (what western company thats not ignorant and/or desperate, would choose NCsoft as their publisher, given their past history?). 

    This type of thing needs to be handled carefully, but NCsoft has demonstrated over the years, that they are either ignorant of the differences between the eastern and western cultures, or they simply do not care.  Personally, I suspect its both, given my experiences in Korea.

    I agree they don't care and are less likely to consider their customer base when making decisions than some Indie studios.  However, are you prepared to stop gaming, or stop AAA gaming to support the CoH call to boycott?  Or is this just a vendetta against NC and we're going to give the Western and Japanese companies a pass on how they shut down games and treat their customers?

    I've been an NC customers since I started mmos with Lineage.  I have a very clear picture of how much they really don't care about their players, especially westerners.  I dont think EA or SoE thinks any more highly of me or fellow gamers either though.  That leaves us with WoW as a choice since Blizz is the only major publisher that comes to mind that hasn't totally shut down any of their games that I can think of.

    One real problem I consider is that the west (NA/EU) are so fickle, critical, and willing to trash a game and studio that we have almost zero unity and have weakened our position globally.  We've got higher per capita incomes and money to spend, but Asia and Russia have numbers to make up for that they are becoming the dominant force in online gaming.  We may very well end up in the position where our voice and economic input are the insignificant factor in these decisions.

  • someforumguysomeforumguy HomePosts: 3,540Member Uncommon

    I can understand the need for explanation about CoH's cancelling, but in the end it comes down to that if a company decides not to fight for a product's success (in their eyes) anymore, there is not much you can do about it as customer.

    Customer loyality is something that never played an important role in this industry (no matter what some random marketing or customer relations employee might claim otherwise:p ) Especially with the big companies.

     

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Wraithone

    Originally posted by lizardbones  

    Originally posted by Pheonyx

    Originally posted by lizardbones It's not a huge mystery. Even if the game was profitable, it wasn't profitable enough. It would be getting steadily less profitable over time too. It doesn't look like there were plans or incentive to create a CoH2 either. They decided to cut their losses before they became losses or when they actually turned from profits to losses and focus on what they knew they could focus on.
    Actually, Matt Miller said that they approached NC Soft to do City of Heroes 2, and NC Soft said "No".
    What is your point? If CoH was not performing well enough to keep running, why would NC Soft want to bank roll a sequel? The game was never that big to begin with, why would they want to spend a lot of time and effort on it? ** edit ** And how many different accounts are going to get created to argue about CoH? Geez. The game is dead, it's not coming back and NC Soft isn't going to suffer because they closed the game. Get over it.  
    You (and NCsoft) might turn out to have a nasty surprise about that last one. Some of the people I've run across in regards to this strike me as first order fanatics. The type of people who take something like this VERY personally, carry a grudge for years and years, and are well connected through face book and other such. No company needs that type of bad PR.

    These types of things can snowball behind the scenes, until they go viral.  It could impact NCsofts business opportunites in the west (what western company thats not ignorant and/or desperate, would choose NCsoft as their publisher, given their past history?). 

    This type of thing needs to be handled carefully, but NCsoft has demonstrated over the years, that they are either ignorant of the differences between the eastern and western cultures, or they simply do not care.  Personally, I suspect its both, given my experiences in Korea.

     



    If there were enough people interested that NC Soft would have to worry about it, the game probably wouldn't have been closed because those people would have been playing the game.

    It is true about the cultural differences though...they aren't going to be nearly as worried about something like this as a Western publisher would. Though, I think the only difference would have been in the shutting down of the game. There would have been a month's warning, and an end of game celebration or something similar. Really, that might have made all the difference.

    ** edit **
    I wouldn't get any sort of nasty surprise. Let's say it does snowball and turn into some huge internet thing. How exactly would it affect me? I already don't play any of their games. Their entire operation could get shutdown and it wouldn't matter to me at all, except for being an interesting news story.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • Quantum0Quantum0 Rochester, NYPosts: 3Member

    "While we looked to sell the franchise multiple times, we were unsuccessful in finding a suitable partner that we thought would support City of Heroes’ fans in a manner they were accustomed to for years to come."

    This statement from NCSoft completely invalidates my trust in anything they have to say.  If anyone believes NCSoft refused to sell City of Heroes out of loyalty to their customers then I have a bridge I'd like to sell them or some nice land in Florida.

    I don't care why NCSoft decided to shutdown City of Heroes.  I do hope there is a way to convince them to sell it. 

  • Quantum0Quantum0 Rochester, NYPosts: 3Member

     

  • HoplitesHoplites SpartaPosts: 463Member
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by Hoplites

    City of Heroes was profitable.  Was it profitable enough?  That is why it went towards the freemium model IMVHO, or more precisely it was the catalyst for such a change.  The freemium model proved to generate a lot of monies, and thus created the basis for the freemium model used for Lineage 2 NA months later. 

    City of Heroes in my guestimation was shut down because it simply wasn't a Korean MMO.  Simply as that.  Lineage 2 NA profits margins are far fewer than CoX but it stills remains.  The impact of shutting down L2 NA would severely effect confidence with investors for the Asian market where L2 is still a powerhouse.  The L2 brand name would be tarnished so they let it be.  Not convinced?  Look at the shutting down of L1 NA to show that confidence in L1 took a nose dive after that happened.

    So, yes we have a right to boycott any NCSOFT game they publish just like they have a right to turn off the switch to any game.

    Don't support a publisher like NCSOFT if they choose to have a myopic view of only catering to the eastern market.  They have proven that they are killer of MMOs in the western market and that infamous legacy you can't run or hide from.  More specifically you can't turn the switch off as it will always be there.

    Boycott?  What do you think that is going to do?  They fired you and aren't concerned about your revenue.  If you don't play any of their other games then you have absolutely no real leverage for a boycott.

    They could shut down L2 in the west.  They shuttered Lineage which is far more profitible globally than L2 is and no one batted an eyelash.  There was no nose dive in confidence by Asian gamers.  Lineage is more profitible now than most western games with WoW being an exception.  I seriously doubt Asian gamers give a damn what we're whining about over here.

    So you want to boycott every publisher that has shuttered games?  What games do you plan on playing?  You're ruling out EA, NCSoft, and SoE.  That leaves you with WoW and some niche indie games with no more lifespan guarantee than anywhere else.  And you're asking the rest of us to essentially give up our hobbies because you're bitter.  I don't see that happening.

    I am a WoW player so I wasn't fired thanks for attempting to be civil though.  Moving on to address your diatribe:

    Boycotting doesn't only involve what choices you make but word of mouth (very big for the entertainment industry) spreads and you can create a stiuation where the potential consumers may not consider a product.  I will tell everyone I know and conventions to avoid any game NCSOFT publishes because they simply are not interested all that much in the western market.

    Lineage 1 North America wasn't putting them in th red, so when they chose to close it out many were surprised given it was fine in the Asian market.  Bottom line, is that, their business practices are myopic and focused on the Asian market.  If NCSOFT wants to be taken seriously as a global publisher they need to extend an olive branch to the western market not a knife to the back.

    What they have done is a public relations firms big no no and that is the sow massive discontent with a very large demographic. 

    I don't play EA or SoE games because I choose to avoid them for the obvious reasons.  I am old enough to remember when EA made quality games, but their business model shifted to churning out quanity over quality as they became much larger.

  • AlverantAlverant Wheaton, ILPosts: 533Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by BurntToast6
    Like I said: How convenient for them to be anonymous - just means they can say anything they want and not be held liable. This article is not an investigative piece as mmorpg did no investigating...they simply provided information from someone hiding behind anonymity and from NCSoft themselves. Since NCSoft threw their name out there with their facts...I am more apt to believe them than some anonymous disgruntled ex-employee trying to stir up animosity through misnformation and half truths.

    As opposed to a company which has a history of spreading misinformation and telling half truths and has continued to do so. If anything we should doubt NCSoft's claims since they have far more to lose and a far greater interest in saving face.

  • AlverantAlverant Wheaton, ILPosts: 533Member Uncommon
    Sorry, but that's just how it goes. If a game closes, find another one.
     

    Just because you are incapable of having sentiment doesn't mean other people aren't. There were friendships in that game. Besides MMOs aren't interchangable. Non-fantasy games are a rarity and CoH was better than that. You may be able to go from one to the other sans loyalty and if you can, I feel sorry for you. But there were plenty of people who liked the game and are justifiably upset at how NCSoft treated us.

    Boycotting their games may not hurt the company but it will save us money and will keep them from hurting us again.

  • AlverantAlverant Wheaton, ILPosts: 533Member Uncommon

    What it comes down to is that NCSoft cannot be trusted. They have a history of lying and now the motivation to do so now to save face and implement some kind of damage control. Trust and loyalty and honesty have no meaning in the corporate world anymore.

    All we know for sure is that they don't care about players in the western market and it would be in our best intrests not to play any game they control again or else the same thing will happen. We weren't customers to them, we were a product to be used, abused, then tossed aside when we became inconvenient.

  • GishgeronGishgeron Princeton, KYPosts: 1,287Member

     

      If it were me, I'd retool the game to work on Linux and release it with a modified engine on the Steambox (or whatever Valve is calling it) when that console comes out.  Instead of being full on server MMO...just make it 6 man groups with user hosting and a lobby to meet players coupled with a CoD matchmaking system to get random groups going.  Release the game again for 60$ as B2P and then start churning out DLC for 20$ a pop.

      While Superhero MMO's have suffered...Superhero console games have done WELL and the game would do well in that market.  I'd love it if they did it for the xbox, but it would take some time to remake that game in this way and they would need to think about future console trends, of which I'm going to put hard money that, should Valve seriously enter it...they will seriously WIN it.

      I'd pay 60$ tonight to play CoH on my xbox.  My friends would too.  NCSoft would do well to consider it before selling the IP.  Reworking it wouldn't even take all that long as the xbox language is a C derivative anyway.  Well, it WOULD take a bit since you'd be changing a ton about how the game does its networking and all that.  I don't mean to underplay what changing an MMO into a multiplayer lobby game really is.  Hell they might have to make it new entirely, I've never even thought about what that sort of change entails.  I Just know I'd pay for it.

    image

  • Another_FanAnother_Fan Fort Lauderdale, FLPosts: 46Member
     
    That would be major retooling and redisign. It wasn't unusual to see people with 6-8 trays of 10 clickable powers each. All those powers/items bound to chording key combinations. The game was really married to keyboard and mouse. 20 would be a low number for things you would need to be able to instantly activate.
    Originally posted by Gishgeron

     

      If it were me, I'd retool the game to work on Linux and release it with a modified engine on the Steambox (or whatever Valve is calling it) when that console comes out.  Instead of being full on server MMO...just make it 6 man groups with user hosting and a lobby to meet players coupled with a CoD matchmaking system to get random groups going.  Release the game again for 60$ as B2P and then start churning out DLC for 20$ a pop.

      

     
  • WraithoneWraithone Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 3,594Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by f0dell54
    Originally posted by Alverant

    What it comes down to is that NCSoft cannot be trusted. They have a history of lying and now the motivation to do so now to save face and implement some kind of damage control. Trust and loyalty and honesty have no meaning in the corporate world anymore.

    All we know for sure is that they don't care about players in the western market and it would be in our best intrests not to play any game they control again or else the same thing will happen. We weren't customers to them, we were a product to be used, abused, then tossed aside when we became inconvenient.

     

    Over exaggeration, enjoy your tin foil hat

    No grand conspiracy is required here... So, your attempt at belittlement isn't even 1/10 ^^  All thats required is to examine NCsofts past history, and behavior.  That speaks for itself.  Just one of many gems is this from Wiki. Which eventually ended up costing them $32 million.

    Richard Garriott termination

    Richard Garriott, lead developer of Tabula Rasa, sued NCsoft for US$47 million in damages concerning his termination from the company. Garriott asserted in his suit that he was forced out of the company and was made to sell his 400,000 shares in NCsoft's stock, losing him millions of dollars. In addition, he claimed that the company was guilty of fraud by forging his resignation announcement.[16] On July 30, 2010, a jury in a Texas federal court awarded him US$28 million in damages. NCsoft appealed the ruling.[17] Garriott again prevailed on appeal and NCsoft was required to pay an additional US$4 million, bringing the total damages awarded to Garriott to US$32 million.[18]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCsoft#Richard_Garriott_termination

    Couple questionable business practices, with the fact that they have now axed no less than five western games, and a western company would have to be ignorant and/or desperate to choose them as a publisher.

  • ksternalksternal Hainesport, NJPosts: 81Member
    The biggest rumor was CoH was cancelled because they didn't care what the players wanted only what the investors cared about. And that was they wanted to invest all their money into Guild Wars II which I won't play after GW was a complete failure in my opinion and Aion which NCSoft lost millions on.
  • bbbb42bbbb42 none, FLPosts: 297Member Uncommon

    It could also be they shut it down to relaunch sometime in the future

    with a different Dev studio at lower wages

    image
  • logandwjlogandwj Grand Prairie, TXPosts: 25Member

    Did no one else notice the interesting post above by AmmonJ? He gave out some very specific information about who he is and his credentials. 

    ---------------------

    Since annonymity bothers some, then let's put it aside.  My name is Ammon Johns, and I work as an Internet Marketing Consultant.  I speak at International conferences, and my clients are predominently large national and multinationals, including banks, insurance companies, online stores, charities, and portals.  I also work for small local and specialist businesses online.  I've worked for many of the sites you probably know and use yourself.  I don't specialise in the game development industry at all, but I work with every level of internet market.  I am considered a world expert in marketing online.

    --------------------

     

    I did a name search in google and this guy is not some unknown. There's a whole lot of sites detailing who he is and his business portfolio. He's apparently the real deal. This is not some pimply fan-boi in his mothers basement whining about a lost game. This is a professional offering his opinion based on his own business experience. And what I'm getting from what he's saying is that there's no way City of Heroes wasn't profitable, and that there's something really shady going on with NCSoft. 

     

    Go back up and read AmmonJ's post. Then go look up his credentials for yourself. Don't take my word for it. 

     

    -Logan
    ----------
    "Wake UP! Time for SCIENCE!"
    -Adam Savage "Mythbusters"
    ----------

  • aslan132aslan132 Tampa, FLPosts: 378Member Uncommon

    I dont see what the big deal is here. Why is everyone so focused on whether the game was profitable or not. Theres no law or rule that says they cant shut a game down if its profitable. They have every right to shut it down, and they owe noone a reason. You agree to it every time you log in. They can make any changes they want, add servers, remove servers, or close them all down. 

     

    Honestly, MMOs close. This isnt the first, and it certainly wont be the last. Players cried when SWG shut down, and it accomplished nothing. They arent going to turn the servers back on just because a few players start crying over it. Find a new game and move on. How is this news?

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by logandwj
    Did no one else notice the interesting post above by AmmonJ? He gave out some very specific information about who he is and his credentials. ---------------------Since annonymity bothers some, then let's put it aside.  My name is Ammon Johns, and I work as an Internet Marketing Consultant.  I speak at International conferences, and my clients are predominently large national and multinationals, including banks, insurance companies, online stores, charities, and portals.  I also work for small local and specialist businesses online.  I've worked for many of the sites you probably know and use yourself.  I don't specialise in the game development industry at all, but I work with every level of internet market.  I am considered a world expert in marketing online.-------------------- I did a name search in google and this guy is not some unknown. There's a whole lot of sites detailing who he is and his business portfolio. He's apparently the real deal. This is not some pimply fan-boi in his mothers basement whining about a lost game. This is a professional offering his opinion based on his own business experience. And what I'm getting from what he's saying is that there's no way City of Heroes wasn't profitable, and that there's something really shady going on with NCSoft.  Go back up and read AmmonJ's post. Then go look up his credentials for yourself. Don't take my word for it.  

    I don't think anyone is saying the game couldn't have been profitable. But the game and the studio were one product. Eighty people to run one game with no additional products to show for it could very well be unprofitable or show zero future potential.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • TchildeTchilde New Castle, DEPosts: 3Member

    Unrelated to the current discussion topics.

    Has anyone found another game worth thier time? WoW, SWTOR, LOTRO, DNDO, none of them can keep my attention, and  the community sucks on all except LOTRO. I hate zombies, so TSW is out. This the 3rdtime NCsoft has axed a MMO for me, likely not gonna give them another shot at my online so called life. I am a six year vet of COH just so you know where I am coming from. Co and DCUO are wretched games in my opinion, tried and uninstalled.

    So any good tips are welcome.

    TTFN

  • Another_FanAnother_Fan Fort Lauderdale, FLPosts: 46Member
    Originally posted by Volkanik

    I really don't understand the need for the continual dissection of why City of Heroes was closed down.  Look at the player number figures from around Q3 of 2009 and you'll see a steady trend downward.  It was an old game that people gradually stopped playing.  Simple as that.

    I played the game for many years (it was my first MMO and the only one that held me more than a few months), so believe me when I say I was as saddened to see it go as anyone, but there seems to be an unwillingness by many to accept the very simple facts about its demise.

    Seriously, let it go already.

     

    The city of heroes community was unable to accept reality as it came crashing down around their ears. The game had been in continuous decline for four years prior to the shutdown. The developers had taken to making false and misleading statements to the players, or have you all forgotten Mr. Miller's statement to the PvPers that "PvP was a priority for paragon studios and would be receiving regular updates ?" . They would stonewall with silence when they failed to deliver and even coopted heavy posters into shilling for them.

     

    Personally I  wouldn't believe anything anyone from paragon studios had to say, and find no shock  at the fact, that people who bought their statements hook line and sinker can't let it go. Take a look

     

     

     

    "this complies with to the notion that NCsoft tried to work with Paragon to make things work and keep the game alive, but the Q2 2012 Earnings Report seems to jive with our anonymous friend's claims. CoH seemed to, at least during that window, be bringing in around 3-4 million dollars a month in revenue."

     

     

    PS was bringing in 3-4 million a quarter or roughly 12 million a year. Not per month. But if you want to believe why not call it 30 million. 30 million is completely plausible if you can believe that having to produce more content for the cash shop while receiving ever less revenue made you more profitable. Either way with a 5% loss rate/month for their customers paragon studios would have been in the red by now. That number is if anything very low. Prior to the announcement all but 3 or at most 4 of the servers were little more than ghost towns.

     
     
     
  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,769Member Uncommon

    You do realise the MMO industry has turned from one which makes MMO’s for long term profit to one which makes MMO’s for short term profit? That MMO’s are now expected to perform more like solo games than multiplayer games when it comes to return of investment and overall profit?

    In light of this, why would any gaming company try to keep an old MMO going? If you are making a profit but only relatively a small one, and you think resources can be put to better use elsewhere why would you keep an old MMO running? Gaming companies are run by suits now, not gamers, wake up and smell the monetary coffee.

    I expect more such closures in the next couple of years, if your old MMO is with a company making new MMO’s it is definitely vulnerable.

  • logandwjlogandwj Grand Prairie, TXPosts: 25Member
    Originally posted by Another_Fan

    The city of heroes community was unable to accept reality as it came crashing down around their ears. The game had been in continuous decline for four years prior to the shutdown. The developers had taken to making false and misleading statements to the players, or have you all forgotten Mr. Miller's statement to the PvPers that "PvP was a priority for paragon studios and would be receiving regular updates ?" . They would stonewall with silence when they failed to deliver and even coopted heavy posters into shilling for them. 

     

     

    Another_Fan - Every time I see your posts recently, I keep thinking, "What particular axe is he grinding? Why does he feel the need to spin conspiracy tin-foil hat theories like this?" Well I think I've got the answer. 

     

    You were haunting the City of Heroes official forums for years doing this same thing. Though I didn't post much myself except at the end, I did lurk. And I remember your posts. I didn't catch the very beginning of what got you started down the path to your particular obsession. I only started noticing them last year. But you've very often been this vitriolic and you've always been a doom troll since I began noticing you. But the only intersection with your particular reality is that an end finally did come. You're just taking the opportunity to indulge in shadenfraude at this moment. It's un-earned, to say the least. 

     

    But more than that, you, like jtcgs, seem to have always been extremely angry about something specific. I still don't know for sure about him, but in your case, it appears to be the PVP changes of Issue 13 that you got obsessed with. 

     

    Issue 13 was released Tuesday, December 2, 2008. This was the issue in which Castle's (a dev on the COH team) PVP changes were implemented. And it's widely considered to be the cause of the exodus of most hardcore PVP players from City of Heroes. 

     

    So that's about 4 years back. And that's when you keep saying that City of Heroes has been declining from. Interesting timing, that. I double-checked on Massively where I remembered you posting because the above nudged a memory. And apparently I was correct. Here's a direct quote from you on a Massively article about COH: 

    --------------------

     

    I am sure you are familiar with the incidents surrounding I13 and I14 (Game speak for the 13th and 14th major updates).

    When you have the developers of the game not just lie to a segment of the player base, but actually mislead them into putting effort into defining the future direction of the game. Effort you have no intention of ever actually using and all you are doing is stringing the people along. It isn't surprising that there should be a backlash.

    For those of you that didn't play the game. With I13 the development staff went to the pvp community and asked for ways  to improve pvp gameplay. They never had any intention of implementing what the pvpers wanted. Matter of fact they decided that the focus of all future PvP improvements should be aimed at attracting people that didn't want to PvP.

     

    --------------------

     

    Yes, I do remember those times. And the anger and vitriol from the PVPers. Some of it deserved. I have to admit, I got into PVP somewhat. I wasn't "hardcore". But it was exhilerating. And then I13 happened, and even for a casual PVPer like myself, the changes were pretty onerous. Didn't care for them and the travel power suppression worked against me more than most, since movement with SS/SJ was what I did even before I got into PVP.  So that was pretty frustrating. But you know what? I moved on.

     

    Most City of  Heroes players did. Because there was more than enough to do in the rest of the game. And PVP was the smallest part of it. (And in arena PVP you could even get rid of most of the I13 Nerfs and play at nearly Pre-I13 power levels!)

     

    But apparently you couldn't let it go. Based on what I saw of you on the old boards and posts elsewhere like the above one from massively, you were a hardcore PVPer who couldn't or wouldn't move on and allowed your bitterness to take over to the point of obsession. You started making wild accusations about being "lied to" and accused others on the boards of conspiring against you when they wouldn't agree with you. 

     

    Seriously? Who calls for the head developer of a game studio to be fired over something like PVP changes that don't even affect the majority of COH players? You got banned at least once for flaming. You got banned AGAIN from the official boards a couple of weeks before the games close because of it. That last is quite an achievement considering moderators were a skeleton crew at that time just trying to "keep the lights on" till the end. Much of the board was "Barrens Chat" by that point. But you actually stood out enough from the rest to actually get banned. 

     

    And then you accuse people of conspiracy because you couldn't keep your temper in check? Please. 

     

    I know you want to believe that the I13 PVP changes are the direct cause of COH's demise. But that simply isn't the case. 

     

    Let's discuss some actual numbers here. 

     

    There was in fact a dip in relative sales in 2009. For about four years after the game first came out, the dollar weakened/KrW strengthened which depressed the sales earnings from the PoV of Korea.  Now in 2008 the value of the KrW collapsed going from around 920 to a dollar to 1410 to a dollar a year or so later.  That's a 50% difference.  That's why the game's sales revenues in KrW surged in 2008.  What followed was Korea's central bank stepping in to stabilize it by the end of 2009 to around the same level as it is today and back when the game first came out (1150 +/- 70).


    Now this made it look like the game's sales also collapsed significantly in 2009 from 70% of first year sales to 40%, where in reality, from a dollar perspective, have been on a steady (shallow) decline for nearly 3 years.  There was another sales spike caused by the surge of Going Rogue sales and when that ran it's course in the TTM number it plateaued again at around 30% of the games first 12 months of sales. And then from there it remained steady until the announcement of the closing. 

     

    COH had the usual incremental decline that all MMOs are subject to. Except that COH's "slope" was shallower than most MMOs. It was declining, yes. But not precipitously so. People might leave, but they almost always came BACK. (In fact, I would take a month break or two on occasion myself, then come back and re-activate my sub.) That's the "stick" calculation above. The games sales plateued at 30% of it's sales at launch. If you factor out the bump from GR, the sales were pretty steady for the last two 1/2 years (maybe a very slight decline). Who knows what the highly anticipated Issue 24 would have done for the sales? 

     

    PVP wasn't even in the game at launch, and the nerfing of it was not the cause of the game's death.  PVP or lack of it didn't help or hinder the game. It was always more about the PVE. PVP existed, but it was never the main focus of the game. Some bitter PVPers with an axe to grind might be very disappointed to hear that. But it's simply the facts.

     

    Here recently, you've focussed entirely on trying to "prove" that City of Heroes was a massive failure on every level in terms of business and finances. And you want to obscure your PVP bitterness as much as possible by focussing on any financial aspect that fits with your bias so as not to come off as a raving fanatic.

     

    But you're really not very good at parsing the actual numbers, or in coming off like a rational person. Statements like the above where you accuse "heavy posters" (I suppose specific posters on the old boards with high post counts) of having been "co-opted" by Paragon to "Shill" for them simply make you look like a lunatic with an axe to grind. 

     

    Co-opted? With what, exactly? Are you going to accuse Paragon Studios of paying people real money or goods to post positive things and defend the game? Really? Do you not realize how obsessive and fanatical you sound? Where's your proof? 

     

    I'm actually asking that only half in jest. I'd really like to see what constitutes "proof" to you. I think it would be most interesting if you actually produced numbers, spreadsheets and check stubs. No really - if you've actually GOT something like that, please share! That'd be a bombshell!

     

    But if your "proof" consists of "this person disagrees with me, therefore he must have been paid off!" Well,  then you can be dismissed summarily as a crazy person. 

     

    Seriously, you should get help to overcome your obsession. 4 solid years of this is not healthy. You need to take your own advice and Let. It. Go.

    -Logan
    ----------
    "Wake UP! Time for SCIENCE!"
    -Adam Savage "Mythbusters"
    ----------

  • WraithoneWraithone Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 3,594Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Scot

    You do realise the MMO industry has turned from one which makes MMO’s for long term profit to one which makes MMO’s for short term profit? That MMO’s are now expected to perform more like solo games than multiplayer games when it comes to return of investment and overall profit?

    In light of this, why would any gaming company try to keep an old MMO going? If you are making a profit but only relatively a small one, and you think resources can be put to better use elsewhere why would you keep an old MMO running? Gaming companies are run by suits now, not gamers, wake up and smell the monetary coffee.

    I expect more such closures in the next couple of years, if your old MMO is with a company making new MMO’s it is definitely vulnerable.

    Very, very true.  We are bound to see more of this over the next few years.  Suits have entirely different perspectives than Dev's and gamers do. Hell, I suspect many of them seldom if ever play their own games.  Its just a job to them, andf if the numbers don't add up to their projections/expectations, they have no problem pulling the plug.

    While that may be good for the projects ROI, it can become a toxic attitude over time.  Look at the number of people who seriously dislike NCsoft, SOE, and other such.  Thats like a corrosive DOT, and it can seriously damage a companies reputation, over time.  I suspect we've just started to see some of the backlash in that regard.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Wraithone
    Originally posted by Scot You do realise the MMO industry has turned from one which makes MMO’s for long term profit to one which makes MMO’s for short term profit? That MMO’s are now expected to perform more like solo games than multiplayer games when it comes to return of investment and overall profit? In light of this, why would any gaming company try to keep an old MMO going? If you are making a profit but only relatively a small one, and you think resources can be put to better use elsewhere why would you keep an old MMO running? Gaming companies are run by suits now, not gamers, wake up and smell the monetary coffee. I expect more such closures in the next couple of years, if your old MMO is with a company making new MMO’s it is definitely vulnerable.
    Very, very true.  We are bound to see more of this over the next few years.  Suits have entirely different perspectives than Dev's and gamers do. Hell, I suspect many of them seldom if ever play their own games.  Its just a job to them, andf if the numbers don't add up to their projections/expectations, they have no problem pulling the plug.

    While that may be good for the projects ROI, it can become a toxic attitude over time.  Look at the number of people who seriously dislike NCsoft, SOE, and other such.  Thats like a corrosive DOT, and it can seriously damage a companies reputation, over time.  I suspect we've just started to see some of the backlash in that regard.




    Except it doesn't. Outside of forums like these it doesn't seem to have touched GW2. EQNext's biggest issue on these forums is Smedley's design ability, not that SWG closed. Most of those posts seem to be cautiously optimistic.

    There are two things working against closing old games becoming a huge backlash. One is that the old games getting closed are going to be on the way out anyway. They are going to have a dwindling player base so most of the players will have already moved on. Item two is that players are a fickle bunch and generally speaking if you can show them a new game, they'll be happy.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • WicoaWicoa LondonPosts: 1,602Member Uncommon

    What matters is that Ncsoft closed a good game with a good crowd following instead of trying any number of basic reputable business strategies to keep the game open.  Some strategies take time and require forward planning, it is clear ncsoft were in a rush, In my view they took the easiest road the fastest and are taking the fastest airway out of the western market.

    Case in point; Ultima and EQ are still going if those old games can keep chugging along there is zero excuse for anything else being shutdown.

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