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[General Article] City of Heroes: Profitable or Not?

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  • WildFire15WildFire15 NorthallertonPosts: 12Member
    Originally posted by 3-4thElf
    Originally posted by WildFire15
    Originally posted by 3-4thElf

    I bet the software for City of Heroes 2 is out there.

    After the business shuffle NC's going through finishes we'll get it. I mean competing sequel MMOs never panned out as a good idea.

    I don't think it ever left the planning stages, sadly

    Hey if people can think 9/11 was an inside job and Elvis was an alien then I can dream..

    But I can say I remember seeing some inside info of my own 2 years ago to the contrary. Might have evolved into the Minecraft/LOST sort of game. Still, the IP still exists. If it's purchasable someone could make a profit from a part duex.

    I might be wrong, but the most I heard of a possible CoH2 was that it was shot down fairly earlier (I think there's some concept art floating about). I think the planned systems did evolve into something else, so you might be right.

  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Manchester, NHPosts: 2,930Member Uncommon

    It's often a case of "profitable enough".  They'd rather spend their money elsewhere I guess.

     

    But you have to call BS on the statement that they chose notto sell it because the buyer couldn't maintain the quality CoH players came to expect.  How is shutting down the game permanently a better solution for the players?

  • WraithoneWraithone Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 3,593Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by erictlewis

    I sit here and wonder, if the game was truly making a profit then why shut it down. Usually you only shut down a game that is going down the toilet. In case we had a few games this year that should have been closed but are still going.

    So I am left to wonder why they did this as from what I could tell there were making a profit. So that leads to other questions to why.

    Its not a simple matter of making a profit.  That profit has to be sufficient to match the suits expectations.  That gets into all manner of value judgements.  Bottom line, NCsoft did what its suits decided to, and neither Paragon nor its players have any recourse.

    What IS known how ever, is NCsofts past record of axing western games. If I remember right, its five or six at this point. 

    That being the case, a western studio would have to be ignorant and/or desperate to choose NCsoft as their publisher. Neither of which bodes well for the studio or its players.

    Especially these days when Nexon is their largest share holder. Nexon makes NCsoft look saintly...

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-06-08/nexon-buys-685-million-stake-in-ncsoft-becomes-biggest-holder.html

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by jimdandy26
    Originally posted by Noyjitat Originally posted by Volkanik I really don't understand the need for the continual dissection of why City of Heroes was closed down.  Look at the player number figures from around Q3 of 2009 and you'll see a steady trend downward.  It was an old game that people gradually stopped playing.  Simple as that. I played the game for many years (it was my first MMO and the only one that held me more than a few months), so believe me when I say I was as saddened to see it go as anyone, but there seems to be an unwillingness by many to accept the very simple facts about its demise. Seriously, let it go already.
    Yet another clueless expert. Why would we be looking at 2009 since that was right after the pvp changes. Ofcourse things were bad then for awhile. Did you play from freedom launch until the end? Did you know about the paragon market and its huge success at generating way more money than subscribers ever generated? Did you notice the servers becoming more and more crowded even before the announcement? At one point alteast 2 servers were always in the red (nearly full mark) while the rest were yellow with one or 2 sometimes being green. And the vip server was often full. This game wasn't dying. Subscribers and player population were increasing with every issue update. Some players and subscribers were easily spending 30 - 50$ a month on the market (some every week) When you break numbers like that down a 50$ purchase is like buying 3 months of the game. The game wasn't dead, nor was it dying. Had further development been allowed to continue the game population would of only continued to grow and they would still be making that extra revenue that they don't seem to care about.
    [citation needed]

    The games own financials do not paint that picture.




    CoH was hovering around 1% of NCSoft's total earnings. GW2 is something like 25% or 50% of their total earnings. Advertising both games on a site like MMORPG.com would cost exactly the same for both games. The expected return for GW2 would be much greater than CoH. Why would NCSoft expend that money on CoH?

    Once games get to a certain age, games don't have a good return on investment for advertising or even expansions. The games get a bump in sales, but the sales then return to pre-bump lows. That's what CoH's financials show. A game that wasn't going to get more sales*, advertising or no.

    * They did have $95k more sales per quarter after the F2P transition compared to before the transition. That would take the game from $10m a year to $10.4m a year. Apparently, that wasn't enough.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • TeknoBugTeknoBug Calgary, ABPosts: 2,156Member

    After what NCSoft did to Auto Assault and Tabula Rasa, I'm not sure what to think of it. They're more interested in Korean-based mainstreams.

    image
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  • SoraellionSoraellion zuidPosts: 557Member

    Not saying I know wtf I'm talking about (I don't) but to me this makes the most sense.

     

    The studio was working on a new title, this was probably not looking too well (missing deadlines or just being problematic or crap). Result is that if you try and sell COH to someone else you're kinda forced to sell the new IP in one go as well as it's all intertwined in the same studio.

     

    Whether or not the game was profitable I don't know but it seems to make sense that interest has been dying out after the initial f2p surge (I came back to and spent a bunch of cash on stuff but as usual with COH I took a break from t the game 3 months later). It makes no sense to expect a healthy, paying player base if it doesn't catch on properly.

     

    So if it WAS profitable they could see profits going down and expecting it to go negative fairly soon, and they couldn't sell COH on its own as they'd have to sell the new IP in the same go. I'm fairly sure there'd be parties interested in COH but, on review, refused to pay top dollar for the new  project that came with it.

     

     

    I'm not a fan of NCsoft, far from it, but I'm fairly sure that they had good reasons, business wise.

     

     
     
     
     
  • Beatnik59Beatnik59 Chicago, ILPosts: 2,236Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Moe4871
    Sorry, but that's just how it goes. If a game closes, find another one.

     

    Just so the "other one" can close as well?  For how long ought we enjoy the things we pay for onine?  Eight years?  Two years?  Two days?  Two hours?  Given the Damocles sword hanging over every game, how much money should a person throw into these things, knowing that it might all get taken away tomorrow?

    The day before the shutdown decision, people were spending money in the Paragon Store, making decisions to delay levelling in favor of building bases, cancelled their subscriptions (temporarily) and re-upped their subscriptions.  They made these decisions based on the assumption that the things they enjoyed would still be there for a long time.

    They made these decisions based on what they knew.  But if they knew the truth, that they wouldn't have an opportunity to enjoy CoH for much longer than a few months, they might not have made all of the decisions they did: to buy costumes, to level up alt characters, to forego content consumption in favor of building bases or acquiring salvage components, or spending hours perfecting AE arcs.

    I see the Richard Aihoshi article on the "two problems nobody's talking about," but those two problems are dwarfed in comparison to the problem the CoH case reveals:

    How do we get consumers to be enthusiastic about spending time and money in this entertainment model when the things they buy and enjoy can be taken away so easily?

    It's a problem we've had since the beginning, but it wasn't a problem people really thought about.  Those first games, after all,(Everquest, Ultima Online) didn't pack up and go away.  This gave us the illusion that our time and money spent in games like City of Heroes wouldn't go away.  But as time goes on, it's becoming obvious that these things can go away and every day we play might be our last.  If CoH can close, the majority of MMOs today--and in the future--are in danger of closing as well.

    Zynga also announced it's closing thirteen games this week.  If the threads here on MMORPG.com are any indication, the CoH closing is having an effect on Wildstar as well.  And can you blame people?  They want to know the game isn't going to fold in a year.  Because if you know the game is going to fold quickly, you don't make the same kind of  purchase and use decisions as a game that won't go away.

    Truly, I think posts like yours, Moe, underestimate the impact of the CoH cancellation.  I've seen games close before, but this one seems different.  It is as if, for the first time, players are starting to reject the notion that "how it goes" is acceptable anymore.  Because, if CoH closes, then there's no reason to believe the next game won't close in an ever worse way.

    __________________________
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    "...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
    --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.

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  • HoplitesHoplites SpartaPosts: 463Member

    City of Heroes was profitable.  Was it profitable enough?  That is why it went towards the freemium model IMVHO, or more precisely it was the catalyst for such a change.  The freemium model proved to generate a lot of monies, and thus created the basis for the freemium model used for Lineage 2 NA months later. 

    City of Heroes in my guestimation was shut down because it simply wasn't a Korean MMO.  Simply as that.  Lineage 2 NA profits margins are far fewer than CoX but it stills remains.  The impact of shutting down L2 NA would severely effect confidence with investors for the Asian market where L2 is still a powerhouse.  The L2 brand name would be tarnished so they let it be.  Not convinced?  Look at the shutting down of L1 NA to show that confidence in L1 took a nose dive after that happened.

    So, yes we have a right to boycott any NCSOFT game they publish just like they have a right to turn off the switch to any game.

    Don't support a publisher like NCSOFT if they choose to have a myopic view of only catering to the eastern market.  They have proven that they are killer of MMOs in the western market and that infamous legacy you can't run or hide from.  More specifically you can't turn the switch off as it will always be there.

     

     

     

  • PheonyxPheonyx Chandler, AZPosts: 8Member
    Originally posted by lizardbones

    It's not a huge mystery. Even if the game was profitable, it wasn't profitable enough. It would be getting steadily less profitable over time too. It doesn't look like there were plans or incentive to create a CoH2 either. They decided to cut their losses before they became losses or when they actually turned from profits to losses and focus on what they knew they could focus on.

    Actually, Matt Miller said that they approached NC Soft to do City of Heroes 2, and NC Soft said "No".

    [color=blue]"The coward knows only death; the hero knows only life"- Kakita Toshimoko, Legend of the Five Rings CCG/RPG

  • gipper36gipper36 santa rosa, CAPosts: 23Member
    it was a failure to attempt the sale of cov for 80 mil that prompted the closure.they (ncsoft),didnt get what they wanted so decided to close.BOYCOTT NCSOFT cause they will do same to your loving game.koreans are all about the almighty dollar!!
  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Pheonyx

    Originally posted by lizardbones It's not a huge mystery. Even if the game was profitable, it wasn't profitable enough. It would be getting steadily less profitable over time too. It doesn't look like there were plans or incentive to create a CoH2 either. They decided to cut their losses before they became losses or when they actually turned from profits to losses and focus on what they knew they could focus on.
    Actually, Matt Miller said that they approached NC Soft to do City of Heroes 2, and NC Soft said "No".

    What is your point? If CoH was not performing well enough to keep running, why would NC Soft want to bank roll a sequel? The game was never that big to begin with, why would they want to spend a lot of time and effort on it?

    ** edit **
    And how many different accounts are going to get created to argue about CoH? Geez. The game is dead, it's not coming back and NC Soft isn't going to suffer because they closed the game. Get over it.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • SukiyakiSukiyaki GreenwichPosts: 1,398Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by FrodoFragins

    It's often a case of "profitable enough".  They'd rather spend their money elsewhere I guess.

     

    But you have to call BS on the statement that they chose notto sell it because the buyer couldn't maintain the quality CoH players came to expect.  How is shutting down the game permanently a better solution for the players?

    Ask anyone ever trying a MMO run by gameforge or gpotato.

    Most rather wish they never had played it in first place.

    And those are actually even likely candidates who would make an offer for a minor blimp game like CoH, with plans to turn it into a poorly supported, poorly hosted, poorly managed, poorly upkeept and P2W cashshop infested cashcow ought to be slaughtered and bleeded to dead before closing it down 2 or 3 years later either.

  • OzmodanOzmodan Hilliard, OHPosts: 7,191Member Uncommon

    Looking at public financial records for any company is rather ludicrous.  Financials sent to tax agencies are far different and reflect far more relevant values than those released to the public.  So your corporate rep basically lied through his teeth using funny numbers.   

    As to attempting to sell the property, when has NCSoft ever tried to sell anything?  Right never.  Tabula Rasa would still fetch a nice profit in the current market, yet it sits in limbo.  

    You have to wonder why some stockholders don't sue to at least get some profit from these properties.  The longer NCSoft holds on to them the less they are worth.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Ozmodan
    Looking at public financial records for any company is rather ludicrous.  Financials sent to tax agencies are far different and reflect far more relevant values than those released to the public.  So your corporate rep basically lied through his teeth using funny numbers.   As to attempting to sell the property, when has NCSoft ever tried to sell anything?  Right never.  Tabula Rasa would still fetch a nice profit in the current market, yet it sits in limbo.  You have to wonder why some stockholders don't sue to at least get some profit from these properties.  The longer NCSoft holds on to them the less they are worth.

    It's the part where they lie about profits that gets them sued, not the part where they keep an IP because they might want to come back to it later.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,219Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Hoplites

    City of Heroes was profitable.  Was it profitable enough?  That is why it went towards the freemium model IMVHO, or more precisely it was the catalyst for such a change.  The freemium model proved to generate a lot of monies, and thus created the basis for the freemium model used for Lineage 2 NA months later. 

    City of Heroes in my guestimation was shut down because it simply wasn't a Korean MMO.  Simply as that.  Lineage 2 NA profits margins are far fewer than CoX but it stills remains.  The impact of shutting down L2 NA would severely effect confidence with investors for the Asian market where L2 is still a powerhouse.  The L2 brand name would be tarnished so they let it be.  Not convinced?  Look at the shutting down of L1 NA to show that confidence in L1 took a nose dive after that happened.

    So, yes we have a right to boycott any NCSOFT game they publish just like they have a right to turn off the switch to any game.

    Don't support a publisher like NCSOFT if they choose to have a myopic view of only catering to the eastern market.  They have proven that they are killer of MMOs in the western market and that infamous legacy you can't run or hide from.  More specifically you can't turn the switch off as it will always be there.

    Boycott?  What do you think that is going to do?  They fired you and aren't concerned about your revenue.  If you don't play any of their other games then you have absolutely no real leverage for a boycott.

    They could shut down L2 in the west.  They shuttered Lineage which is far more profitible globally than L2 is and no one batted an eyelash.  There was no nose dive in confidence by Asian gamers.  Lineage is more profitible now than most western games with WoW being an exception.  I seriously doubt Asian gamers give a damn what we're whining about over here.

    So you want to boycott every publisher that has shuttered games?  What games do you plan on playing?  You're ruling out EA, NCSoft, and SoE.  That leaves you with WoW and some niche indie games with no more lifespan guarantee than anywhere else.  And you're asking the rest of us to essentially give up our hobbies because you're bitter.  I don't see that happening.

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,219Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ozmodan

    Looking at public financial records for any company is rather ludicrous.  Financials sent to tax agencies are far different and reflect far more relevant values than those released to the public.  So your corporate rep basically lied through his teeth using funny numbers.   

    As to attempting to sell the property, when has NCSoft ever tried to sell anything?  Right never.  Tabula Rasa would still fetch a nice profit in the current market, yet it sits in limbo.  

    You have to wonder why some stockholders don't sue to at least get some profit from these properties.  The longer NCSoft holds on to them the less they are worth.

    There are other considerations to IP sales than just revenue generation.  There is licensed technology, patents, copyrights, and technology sharing that they likely don't want to reveal.  On top of that it's not just the inherent value of the game they might consider but the difficulty and cost in building the game and licensing those patents.  Essentially NCSoft has already done the hard part and to sell that could give a leg up to competition in a very competitive market.

    Our company has sold some IP before and, in hindsight, we probably would have been better just holding on to that tech than leveraging our competitors in a better position for a few dollars.

  • WildFire15WildFire15 NorthallertonPosts: 12Member
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by Ozmodan
    Looking at public financial records for any company is rather ludicrous.  Financials sent to tax agencies are far different and reflect far more relevant values than those released to the public.  So your corporate rep basically lied through his teeth using funny numbers.   

     

    As to attempting to sell the property, when has NCSoft ever tried to sell anything?  Right never.  Tabula Rasa would still fetch a nice profit in the current market, yet it sits in limbo.  

    You have to wonder why some stockholders don't sue to at least get some profit from these properties.  The longer NCSoft holds on to them the less they are worth.



    It's the part where they lie about profits that gets them sued, not the part where they keep an IP because they might want to come back to it later.

     

    They haven't returned to Tabula Rasa or Auto Assault so they arn't likely to return to City of Heroes. All they can really use it for now is saying 'we own X franchises' to fool investors into backing them because they arn't really removing competition by keeping it locked away. Most people played City of Heroes because it was different to 99% of the MMO genre and with the large black mark they've put on their reputation with how they dealt with the shutdown, those players very definatly arn't playing their other titles.

    Out of all the games they've shut down, CoH seems to be the only one that could make a successful return, but I doubt it would if NCsoft were behind it as there's now too much bad blood which isn't going away any time soon.

    As for the investors, I doubt they can sue just on that but I am curious as to what they'll ask after this 'press release'.

  • OzmodanOzmodan Hilliard, OHPosts: 7,191Member Uncommon

    Well the basic tenet to remember here, don't expect to play NCSoft titles for long, they will shutter the game as soon as they lose their popularity.  I can still play my first avatar that I created in UO in 1997.  There is a growing list of NCSoft titles that that cannot be done anymore.  Certainly a consideration for what games you do purchase and play.

    One of the reasons I did not purchase GW2.  

  • DesirsarDesirsar Lincoln, NEPosts: 100Member

    Investors?  Sue?

     

    Why is no one bringing up the fact that all of NCSoft was recently sold?  CoH was closed because its small margin was bringing down the value of the company.  Close it, and it makes the price for the whole company higher to the buyer.  Any fan of wrestling would notice this and point it out to you, it's why Time Warner closed WCW before the merger with AOL.  (If only they'd realized that AOL as its own product would die in three years...)

     

    Anything contradicting this is NCSoft trying to win over former customers or anyone paying attention to the media so they won't avoid their products in the future.  I was even going to overlook the Tabula Rasa thing because the devs butchered that game by trying to go too many directions with it, but this is beyond forgiveness.  I have a five year old thread in the LFGame forum that I bring up almost every year - if NCSoft is the first to make the game I ask for in that thread after five years of searching, I still would not touch it.

    image

  • WildFire15WildFire15 NorthallertonPosts: 12Member
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by Pheonyx

    Originally posted by lizardbones It's not a huge mystery. Even if the game was profitable, it wasn't profitable enough. It would be getting steadily less profitable over time too. It doesn't look like there were plans or incentive to create a CoH2 either. They decided to cut their losses before they became losses or when they actually turned from profits to losses and focus on what they knew they could focus on.
    Actually, Matt Miller said that they approached NC Soft to do City of Heroes 2, and NC Soft said "No".

    What is your point? If CoH was not performing well enough to keep running, why would NC Soft want to bank roll a sequel? The game was never that big to begin with, why would they want to spend a lot of time and effort on it?

    ** edit **
    And how many different accounts are going to get created to argue about CoH? Geez. The game is dead, it's not coming back and NC Soft isn't going to suffer because they closed the game. Get over it.

     

    City of Heroes in it's current form was solid but it had it's far share of flaws. the combat system needed a bit more adding to it, the world map needed to be utilized a bit better and a few zones needed merging as there were too many of them.

    Some of the recent updates, such as the re-jigging of Atlas Park and Mercy Island, not to mention some of the 'area of effect' attacks Praetorian enemies had that forced you to keep moving around the battle field were steps in the right direction, but what they really badly needed was a fresh engine that wasn't clogged and difficult to use like the 10 odd year old engine they were using.

    My best thought as to why NCsoft turned down a sequel was that they simply didn't appreciate or understand that Super Heroes are popular in the west. They have their eyes mostly focused on the Korean market with a desire to make an international smash hit and CoH was very much a niche that had potential they couldn't see. They can't have totally missed the fact CoH only really had word of mouth advertising and was still going strong, so even a little bit of advertising could have gone a long way.

    But it does seem their complete misunderstanding of this niche product led Paragon to lose faith and ask to buy themselves out. From there on, I'd think NC's misplaced sense of honor took hold and we ended up in this situation.

  • ammonjammonj BrightonPosts: 1Member

    Firstly, retention rate.  Yes the figure is month on month.  Further, anything over 90% is HUGE in the industry, like, industry leading level.  City of Heroes had that.  The one and only thing it didn't have was *any* commitment to marketing at all from NCsoft. 

     

    Every business in the world has what is called an attrition rate.  No matter how loyal your customers, people's situations change.  They move, they marry, they even die.  Basic business 101 says it this simply: "Any business that is not actively growing its customer base is losing it".  Any and every business in the world must do enough marketing to attract new custom to counter attrition rates or it will die.  NCsoft did no noticeable marketing of CoH at all except in some minimal cross-selling from its other titles that it did advertise and promote.

     

    It is an unquestioned and unarguable fact that NCsoft completely failed to even try to grow the game's market, and allowed natural customer-base attrition to reduce market share unchallenged.  Check those facts any way you like, you won't change them.  NCsoft completely fail business 101 in this regard, and one surely has to suspect this was deliberate.  You don't overlook something that basic to all business. 

     

    This is why people say that NCsoft did their deliberate damndest to kill CoH.  It is that obvious, and the ONLY question about it is "Why?" not "Did they?".

     

    Costs: Paragon Studios only significant costs were the business premises at US costs, and staff at US costs.  These would probably seem high to a company mainly based in Korea.  But they'd seem very low to a company based in Tokyo or Hong Kong, so you would expect most Asian companies to be quite happy with them.

     

    80 staff was a ridiculously large number for CoH, and in fact many of those staff were primarily working on new projects such as the new game mentioned, never really contributing to the money-maker of CoX at all.  So while costs for staff were indeed far higher than needed or expected for this game, a large amount of that was in pure R&D for the next generation product (new games).  20 staff would have been more than enough to maintain the game, and even halving the staff to 40 would have meant easy full continuation, plus plenty of new products in the cash-shop every week, as was happening.

     

    Again, a fact which is unquestioned and unarguable is that NO attempt was made to reduce staff to reduce costs.  In fact, our information is that a large number of those 80 were only taken on as GROWTH in the 12 months prior to the unexpected closure.  These additional staff were taken on to develop the next generation products, and to help add goods to the cash-shop faster.

     

    If a game is at all questionable in income, why would you hire more and more unneeded staff?  The fact that they did so is easily confirmed.  Not only did NCsoft NOT try at any time to reduce unnecessary extra costs, they actively allowed Paragon to grow its costs in ways that did not contribute to the existing profit, and were only working on R&D of future products.

     

    Profits:  City of Heroes made around 170million dollars US in its 9 years.  Not bad for something bought for under 8 million, eh?  Even in its final months it was certainly generating revenue of over $10million USD per annum, and this was growing with the further refinement and adoption of the new cash-shop (which doubled revenue after its adoption).  It would have been more profitable if NCsoft were not having Paragon hire more staff to work on R&D that did not directly produce any revenue. 

     

    As a professional in online business, with over 18years experience, I can see no possible way that City of Heroes and Paragon Studios were not profitable to at least 3-4 million per year, (unless someone at NCsoft were charging 4 million a year in wages to audit or oversee Paragon).

     

    Since annonymity bothers some, then let's put it aside.  My name is Ammon Johns, and I work as an Internet Marketing Consultant.  I speak at International conferences, and my clients are predominently large national and multinationals, including banks, insurance companies, online stores, charities, and portals.  I also work for small local and specialist businesses online.  I've worked for many of the sites you probably know and use yourself.  I don't specialise in the game development industry at all, but I work with every level of internet market.  I am considered a world expert in marketing online.

     

    The above are my own findings from digging through many sources, and from using my contacts and network.  That's not to do the big "I am", that's simply to head off anyone asking if I know what I'm talking about.  I will welcome discussion to challenge any of my own findings, just cite your sources and experience when you do so.  Oh, and no anonymity, right? ;)

     
  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by WildFire15

    Originally posted by lizardbones  

    Originally posted by Pheonyx

    Originally posted by lizardbones It's not a huge mystery. Even if the game was profitable, it wasn't profitable enough. It would be getting steadily less profitable over time too. It doesn't look like there were plans or incentive to create a CoH2 either. They decided to cut their losses before they became losses or when they actually turned from profits to losses and focus on what they knew they could focus on.
    Actually, Matt Miller said that they approached NC Soft to do City of Heroes 2, and NC Soft said "No".
    What is your point? If CoH was not performing well enough to keep running, why would NC Soft want to bank roll a sequel? The game was never that big to begin with, why would they want to spend a lot of time and effort on it? ** edit ** And how many different accounts are going to get created to argue about CoH? Geez. The game is dead, it's not coming back and NC Soft isn't going to suffer because they closed the game. Get over it.  
    City of Heroes in it's current form was solid but it had it's far share of flaws. the combat system needed a bit more adding to it, the world map needed to be utilized a bit better and a few zones needed merging as there were too many of them.

    Some of the recent updates, such as the re-jigging of Atlas Park and Mercy Island, not to mention some of the 'area of effect' attacks Praetorian enemies had that forced you to keep moving around the battle field were steps in the right direction, but what they really badly needed was a fresh engine that wasn't clogged and difficult to use like the 10 odd year old engine they were using.

    My best thought as to why NCsoft turned down a sequel was that they simply didn't appreciate or understand that Super Heroes are popular in the west. They have their eyes mostly focused on the Korean market with a desire to make an international smash hit and CoH was very much a niche that had potential they couldn't see. They can't have totally missed the fact CoH only really had word of mouth advertising and was still going strong, so even a little bit of advertising could have gone a long way.

    But it does seem their complete misunderstanding of this niche product led Paragon to lose faith and ask to buy themselves out. From there on, I'd think NC's misplaced sense of honor took hold and we ended up in this situation.



    Super hero MMOs are doing poorly in the West, just like they're doing everywhere else. Super hero movies might be popular and pretty main stream now, but this isn't translating into sales for Champions or DCUO and it certainly didn't for CoH.

    Their decision was based on the business, or the performance of Paragon Studios, not their grasp of the super hero genre. Something about the game or Paragon Studios wasn't up to snuff and they closed them down. I'm leaning more towards a lack of confidence in Paragon Studios myself.

    The post above yours was important...I didn't know that NC Soft was sold or was being sold. That poster is right...if they're selling the company, then anything weak in their product line would be closed down. CoH may have been profitable, but it was weak. Though, I'm still leaning a lot more towards Paragon Studios being weak and not the game itself. Unfortunately, the studio and the game were one in the same.

    ** edit **
    For everyone talking about advertising, CoH got the same advertising that every other MMO got. The advertising at launch, the advertising for major expansions and the advertising when the game went F2P. I read the stupid comic books at the book store that released with the game. CoH just never took off. It doesn't make sense to keep dumping advertising revenue into a game that just doesn't start.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • WildFire15WildFire15 NorthallertonPosts: 12Member
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     

    Super hero MMOs are doing poorly in the West, just like they're doing everywhere else. Super hero movies might be popular and pretty main stream now, but this isn't translating into sales for Champions or DCUO and it certainly didn't for CoH.

    Their decision was based on the business, or the performance of Paragon Studios, not their grasp of the super hero genre. Something about the game or Paragon Studios wasn't up to snuff and they closed them down. I'm leaning more towards a lack of confidence in Paragon Studios myself.

    The post above yours was important...I didn't know that NC Soft was sold or was being sold. That poster is right...if they're selling the company, then anything weak in their product line would be closed down. CoH may have been profitable, but it was weak. Though, I'm still leaning a lot more towards Paragon Studios being weak and not the game itself. Unfortunately, the studio and the game were one in the same.

     

    I don't think any of them have been advertised very well with the exception of DC Universe Online and both it and Champions suffered by simply not being as good as an old game, which likely put a handful of people off CoH. Age likely also factored into NC's lack of desire to advertise it.

    I don't think NCsoft is being fully sold, but Nexon did buy something like 12% of the shares from NC's CEO not long before the announcement was made/Guild Wars 2 came out. It might be preparing for a full on sale, in which case we could factor in the idea that City of Heroes wasn't well designed to fit with Nexon's favored business model of pay 2 win (though that might be slightly harsh).

    I'm not sure how Nexon might take that huge drop in stock prices in the last few months (something like 2/3s or so down over those months (http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/overview?symbol=036570.KS)). It might play into their hands, they might be playing merry hell over the lose. Guess we'll see how it pans out as I doubt this story will end soon.

  • WraithoneWraithone Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 3,593Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by gipper36
    it was a failure to attempt the sale of cov for 80 mil that prompted the closure.they (ncsoft),didnt get what they wanted so decided to close.BOYCOTT NCSOFT cause they will do same to your loving game.koreans are all about the almighty dollar!!

    All business suits are about money... Thats the point of business... ^^  It doesn't matter what country they are from.  But I do admit that any western company that chooses NCsoft as their publisher, given their past record of axing western games, is ignorant and/or desperate.

    The CoH game belongs to NCsoft. They are free to set any price they wish to on it.  From one dollar to ten trillion.   Many business decisions are calculated. Some are personal.  Given what I've heard about the NCsoft CEO, both are possible.

    Look at NCsofts antics with Richard Garret, and Tabula Rasa. That cost them millions when they lost the US court case.

    Now that Nexon is involved, things are likely to get even more "interesting".

  • WraithoneWraithone Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 3,593Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by Pheonyx

    Originally posted by lizardbones It's not a huge mystery. Even if the game was profitable, it wasn't profitable enough. It would be getting steadily less profitable over time too. It doesn't look like there were plans or incentive to create a CoH2 either. They decided to cut their losses before they became losses or when they actually turned from profits to losses and focus on what they knew they could focus on.
    Actually, Matt Miller said that they approached NC Soft to do City of Heroes 2, and NC Soft said "No".

    What is your point? If CoH was not performing well enough to keep running, why would NC Soft want to bank roll a sequel? The game was never that big to begin with, why would they want to spend a lot of time and effort on it?

    ** edit **
    And how many different accounts are going to get created to argue about CoH? Geez. The game is dead, it's not coming back and NC Soft isn't going to suffer because they closed the game. Get over it.

     

    You (and NCsoft) might turn out to have a nasty surprise about that last one. Some of the people I've run across in regards to this strike me as first order fanatics. The type of people who take something like this VERY personally, carry a grudge for years and years, and are well connected through face book and other such. No company needs that type of bad PR.

    These types of things can snowball behind the scenes, until they go viral.  It could impact NCsofts business opportunites in the west (what western company thats not ignorant and/or desperate, would choose NCsoft as their publisher, given their past history?). 

    This type of thing needs to be handled carefully, but NCsoft has demonstrated over the years, that they are either ignorant of the differences between the eastern and western cultures, or they simply do not care.  Personally, I suspect its both, given my experiences in Korea.

     

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