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Originally posted by Torvaldr "Sandbox" is the new "dyanamic event".
This Year's Bullet Point.
Still, at least we can check off every new game as it's delivered, and for each new game invent a thousand reasons why it sucks.
Situation normal, in other words.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by DancingQueen Originally posted by ste2000 Well looking at the list of the most hyped MMOs in development the top 6 are Sandboxes. Popular IPs like TES and Neverwinter can't even match the popularity of Earthrise(what?) and Darkfall, which are old games repackaged. And the Top spot is taken by a Korean MMO which is not even released in its original country and which might take another 2 years to get to the NA/EU/OZ, how crazy is that? Is it that the members of this site are actually Sandboxers at heart or maybe people are truly bored of Themeparks (TESO/Neverwinter to name few)? Personally I would pay $15 a month to play the Korean Beta of Archeage.........and I am deadly serious
I look at your sig: ArcheAge - themepark / sandbox hybrid, TESO - no idea but hopefully a little sandbox in there, EQ III - very sandboxy according to John smedley, GW2 - themepark all the way.
Don't know what is the meaning of your comment.
Anyway I love MMOs, it is my hobby.
I prefer Sandboxes but I don't dislike good Themeparks, I played WoW for 3 years after all.
Themeparks are content driven, while Sandboxes are player driven, that's why I believe Sandboxes suit the MMO format much better than Themeparks.
I am surprised that the Themepark/Sandbox ratio in the MMO industry is 80/20, but I understand that developers goes with the market so if the players buy Themeparks, developers will make themeparks.
The reason why I made this thread is that I notice a big shift in the last 2 years towards Sandboxes (In this site), and I was wandering if the reason is that Thempark players moved to other sites or because MMO player start to understand the appeal of Sandboxes.
I've been always a Sandboxer at heart so I cannot answer my question, I hoped some of the Themepark can confirm that actually the taste of MMO players is really changing.
Smedley that decided to make EQ3 a Sandbox instead of another Themepark is actually rather revealing in itself.
But I wanted to hear it from the players.
Saying that you want to play a sandbox and that themeparks suck is very "in thing to say" right now.
The reality is that no matter what players say most prefer themepark gameplay, and would quit most sandbox games as soon as they hit the grind.
Originally posted by Scarfe I think the users of sites like this are more sandbox orientated than most.
imo they still dont know what a sandbox actually is.
they heard it's cool, and that's why they want it.
they got into WoW the same way.
now something else is cool, and they want their mommies to buy it for them, so they can tell everyone at school that they play the next cool thing too.
ps: neverwinter is not a sandbox. next theory?
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
Originally posted by Razeekster I think it's crazy that there are people that are actually against sandbox MMOs. I mean in sandboxes you can build houses and other structures, and actually change the world around you. You change the world. Not the developers! In themeparks everything is created and changed by the developers. I think being able to impact the world around you in a game makes it that much more immersive and realistic.
There are many players who find building houses boring and tedious. There are many players who just prefer for all the content to be given to them directly from the devs.
It comes down to time, and most players would prefer to just jump in and play, instead of building up first.
Its 2 types of players, and imo there are simply more gamers than sandboxers.
i find this post most dangerous, well
Themepark hype games already got released, Elder Scrolls was a sandbox offline game and now is a themepark Online mmorpg maybe not the best time to do this.
The values for the sandbox games are lower then the themepark previous ones
People that still play the games they like aren't even reading this forum or site
MMORPG gamers has a sad problem....
THEY'RE ALWAYS SEARCHING FOR NEW GAMES__ like a vampire always in a hunger for blood.
It doesn't matter to me what kind of game it is. If I'm having fun it's a good game...I think people forget that's why we play games, isn't it?
^ Croc surfing, not much is more fun than that hehe
I think the notion on this site currently is that people just want something different already..
we've been fed themeparks for the last decade..
Originally posted by tank017 I think the notion on this site currently is that people just want something different already.. we've been fed themeparks for the last decade..
Let's call them what they are, WoW clones, which itself is a dumbed down psuedo clone of a flawed game.
If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe. - Carl Sagan
Originally posted by QSatu This site has been for a very long time in favor of sandbox games. The question is, are those games going to get the numbers of themeparks? I have my doubts. most of them won't reach aaa themepark quality and will be abandoned just as fast as all other games. besides we all know that people here can't decide what a snadbox even is. Each of those games will lack 1 or 2 "the most importand feature ever" and they will be back to complaining how no one knows how to make good games.
Isn't this a contradiction, consider "all other games" are those AAA themeparks?
LoTRO, TSW, ToR, DDO, AoC, WAR.
Outside of korea there's only been one "major" wastern MMO that was fully a themepark, and that's wow. No AAA themepark other than WoW has been a huge success with a subscription model, and sandboxes have yet to be really attempted by any AAA developers.
Just because developers have kept trying doesn't mean that it's worked, and that's all developers have been doing sinse 2004. Trying to make a hit themepark, beause Blizzard did it so it obviously works, even though the genre hasn't shown them any more support then they did in 1999.
Themeparks, outside of WoW, have not done any better than EVE. The only other MMO that was able to compete with WoW was a sanboxish FFA pvp mma made by a Korean developer, Lineage 2.
There's no reason for developers to make anything but a sandbox MMO. Being a sandbox means you have the freedom to do all the same stuff you already do in a themepark. A themepark is a sandbox minus the freedom, it's just consumable content, structured by the dev to tell you when and were you can do it.
One of the most popular RPG series of all time, TES, a sandbox.
One of the most popular RPG's of all time, FF 7, which happens to be the most sandboxy FF rpg yet.
One of the only MMO todays that still uses a subscirption model and continues to grow, EVE; a sandbox.
Games that all end up Free to Play, basically every themepark MMO but WoW.
What happens when the most popular themepark focusses more and more on making the game casual and themepark freiendly, millions of subscribers leave.
The problem is entirely rooted in the western gaming culture and an unwillingness to accept the fact that we've been wrong. The asian developers are the ones currently getting away from the themepark model and making more sandboxes, and western gamers are notoriously anti asian MMO.
People in the west spend more money, they tend to be more vocal; it's not suprising it's taken this long and developers in Asia to figure out what's been staring them in the face for the last 9 years.
Casual, single player freiendly, themeparks do not make great MMO's with longevity. People do not want to pay monthly to play those games; they wouldn't all be going F2P or closing down if they did.
Rift doesn't have that many more subscibers than the second MMO to hit the market, UO, and Rift is supposed to be one of the most successful MMO's sinse WoW.
It's like a sick joke.
I have a picture that will answer your question perfectly.
Originally posted by DavisFlight Considering there have been just about no successful themepark MMOs in the last 8 years, I'd say it's neither all of a sudden, nor is it just this MMORPG.com community.
It's staring us right in the face.
Plane as day.
When most of the AAA themeparks released can't sustain themselves under a subscription model, then the genre is speaking very clearly. They'll play crap when it's free, but not when you've got to pay monthly for it.
And still people insist no one really wants to play a sandbox. Just because devlopers keep trying and failing, obviously it's the players and not the games themselves.
Originally posted by Uhwop Originally posted by DavisFlight Considering there have been just about no successful themepark MMOs in the last 8 years, I'd say it's neither all of a sudden, nor is it just this MMORPG.com community.
The conclusion that isn't supported, at this point, is that sandboxes will ultimately perform any differently.
Just another brand of Hype, yes?
We'll see how things work out, after this first wave is released and we all finish arguing over what is and is not a True Sandbox™.
Originally posted by Icewhite Originally posted by Uhwop Originally posted by DavisFlight Considering there have been just about no successful themepark MMOs in the last 8 years, I'd say it's neither all of a sudden, nor is it just this MMORPG.com community.
Pretty much yeah... It's just buzz words and we haven't defined our terms. But thats not the real issue, the only thing that matters is whether a game is fun to play or not, which usually is discovered after a few hours of playing.
"I will Turn your name into a synonym for weakness"
At this point I would simply be happy to get a new game where I did not know Exactly how to play from start to endgame within an hour of logging in for the first time.
1) buy game/install/press start
2) look around for a few minutes in newbie zone.
3) suicide run to main town.
4) see EVERYTHING the game sells or offers to max levels in stores or on dummys or preview mode.
5) Tab target something - press 1- maybe just aim and press 1.
6) Ding !
7) Ok gonna throw press 2 into the mix now.
8) Tab target something hit 1 , pause half sec, press 2.
9) Ding !
( Note to self-Don't say anything bad about Drizzt.)
An acerbic sense of humor is NOT allowed here.
You make me like charity
Originally posted by paulytheb At this point I would simply be happy to get a new game where I did not know Exactly how to play from start to endgame within an hour of logging in for the first time. 1) buy game/install/press start 2) find out just how much time you will be required to spend gathering and crafting and fishing and cooking. (there are no steps 3-9) 10) Uninstall/burn/cry
Can you understand why this type of distortion cuts both ways?
Or why no mmo is ever the answer for everyone?
Originally posted by hehey Its obvious why archeage is the most hyped, there is no bullshit, there is no NDA, XL Games have promised a lot of things and litteraly every single one of those promises can already be seen completed in Beta videos all over the net, which is very unusual in the MMO industry what with most MMO's launching incomplete. There is no NDA so people dont have to leave things up to fate or hope or whatever, they can see for themselves.
You're forgetting about the part where it's being developed by a Korean game company, which is hardly a good thing for most people due to the general simplicity and grindy nature of such games. It's great that it's a sandbox and all, but the game is going to fail pretty hard here once people realize that.
That's not really what I was getting at though.
I"m saying that the people who keep saying that people don't really want to play a sandbox, and use the fact that most every AAA mmo released is a themepark as "proof" that that's what people want to play.
I"m saying, no, developers have not been having any success with themeparks. If they had been having success with them, they wouldn't switch to F2P and they'd be able to exceed subscription numbers of the first MMO released; which were harder, and either more sandboxish in nature or were sandboxes period.
Rift is considered one of the more successfull MMO's to release after WoW, it doesn't have that many more subscirbers than UO does today.
Lineage 2 is NOTHING like WoW. It's not realy a sandbox MMO, just more sandboxy then most themeparks. It's the only MMO that ever matched Blizzard in subscirption numbers. (It's suprising how many people don't realize this. Lineage 2 had as many people playing it as WoW did at one point worldwide. It only went F2P because NCsoft is effectively finished" with it.)
I'm not saying that sandboxes will fair better, I'm saying themeparks have not been the smashing success peopel keep "hyping" them to have been. What themepark sinse WoW has exceeded a million subs without being free to play? How about 750 thousand subs? 500 thousand? None if you think that the only AAA developed MMO's are western developed ones, which is wrong and typically what people are implying when they say AAA. The world doesn't start and stop outside Asia, and Asia has a lot of AAA MMO developers. Western gaming culture, in particular the MMO one, has a horrible tendency to practice a strange form of video game racism. Asian MMO's are always looked down on.
EVE just passed 450 thousand subscribers though, and is one of the last subscription based MMO's that has continually seen growth where all others have had to switch to F2P in order to survive.
Gamers have been speaking with there wallets for many years, and we've been saying we're not willing to pay a monthly fee for themaprk MMO's, even AAA developed ones.
People seem to refuse to accept a simple fact. Gamers prefer more freedom, not less, and themeparks are the complete opposite of that.
WoW is a freak of nature and doesn't really represent what the typical gamer prefers. We have typically shown more support for sandbox or more sandboxy styled RPGs, the MMO genre is just lagging behind, and the Asian developers are the first to "get it".
WoW was not a "bad" game, and the first western developer to create a sandbox with that same level of polish is going to be the next WoW. A lot of people around here simply refuse to believe this because they don't like not having direction, and the it's the East that's doing it first and people have a silly dislike of Eastern MMO's.
Originally posted by Uhwop
People seem to refuse to accept a simple fact. Gamers prefer more freedom, not less, and themeparks are the complete opposite of that.
Because your 'simple fact' isn't true, certainly not in all cases?
(Substitute "I" for "gamers" and you can make a "fact".) (Substutute "verteran gamers" for "gamers" even, and you'll at least be a little closer to "fact")
Let me illustrate. Jane the Homemaker has seen her kids playing around in a game, seems like they're having fun. She's never played this kind of game before...even (possibly) not any games.
Is EVE the game for Jane? High overhead, steep learning curve, sparse (well used to be anyway) documentation?
Except that isn't true at all.
Themeparks that are not doing well and can't sustain a subscription aren't doing well just because they are themeparks or have a subscription.
Go ahead. Name some themeparks and let's really look at why they had issues? Conan had issues at launch, same with Warhammer.
SWToR's issues, besides that it wasn't the game that others wanted, were more because people ran out of things to do once they ran out of story. And many weren't interested in starting a new character which is what the devs were counting on.
Aion's issues were that it was similiar enough to WoW to attrack WoW players but not similiar enough to satisfy WoW players. Longer leveling (though not nearly as long as many Korean games), pvp that wasn't consensual, and an unclear endgame that seemed to require a lot of grinding for better gear.
So many themeparks were released that had bugs, bad "end game" lack of content in certain areas, etc.
People will buy and pay a subscription for a themepark but that themepark is going to have to be extremely well made and have a LOT of content.
WoW has millions of players and they pay a sub. Why? Well, because WoW gives them enough value to warrant players paying a monthly fee.