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Are MMORPG.com members sandbox players, or all of a sudden people turned their back on Themparks?

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  • HedeonHedeon GraestedPosts: 954Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by HeroEvermore
    I don;t clasify games by these 2 silly words. The game either has a lot of functions in game or it does not. There is no such thing as themepark. this isnt rollercoaster tycoon.

    a themepark tycoon MMO....is that on kickstarter yet?!?

  • TickleMeHomoTickleMeHomo BurgasPosts: 28Member

    Im whatever guy.IF there is solid themepark or solid sandbox i will play 1 of them or both.Just with newly mmorpgs coming out now and people "evolve" in what they want from their games ,have expectations for somethink different that wow style game level system and progression wich is kinda linear for those most old gamers present..Now games like Minecraft or Skyrim really up the bar for what mmos can be turn into.Myself after playing minecraft with friend on survival map i really enjoyed and than i started searchin games similar with it wich they lack atm.Now games like Aion,Lotro,Rift are amazingly linear and boring.Thats what games should not be in future but more openly world,i can think of Archage/Eve/ atm.GuildWars 2 i dnt want to put it here cause its going to linear ones.I really hope for future when someone say MMORPG to think bout the world how big is and the risk of exploring it,games like startup zone u get first quest than u walk on road and next corner another quest should be shutdown wich wont hapen oufcourse.

     

    SRy english

  • xSh0xxSh0x Scottsdale, AZPosts: 125Member

    Most upcoming asian MMOs are sandbox inspired.  And that is the fastest growing market, by far.  Many are using CryEngine3, an engine designed with the intent of building sandbox environments with relative ease.  F2P is quickly taking over as the competitve pricing model, allowing players a more "on-off shopping experience," original features and wild concepts will attract more middle tier F2P spenders.  Easier to do when your game is sandbox inspired.  You don't have to focus strickly on character progression or combat, two concepts that most themeparks begin and end with.  You can focus on resource ecosystems, and asset destruction, other kinds of progressions. And, you can focus beyond combat, to exploration, puzzles, experimentation, building, breeding, gathering, community management, politics, and other features that are sorely, sorely underdeveloped in MMOs.

    The reason why the themepark MMO is failing, as it should, is simply because its part of single-player game theory.  That's how WoW brought so many players in, are created that market almost single-handedly.  Now people are realizing that the cutting edge single player games are outpacing themepark MMO's, and they die faster every year.   They're dying because the idea, in a massive scale, has hit a dead end.  They've extracted everything they can out of the themepark MMO pool of thought.  Its still a good idea, for small groups of people or a single individual.

    There has never been a AAA sandbox MMO.  UO was indie.  There have been FFA esque PVP games, with themepark constrants, but that's it.  ArcheAge will be the first, and it does look very impressive.  It will be a success around the world, especially because it doesn't have full loot, it does run CryEngine3, and is well balanced and truly massive in scale.

    People are curious to see what a true fantasy ecosystem could be like.  In a massive scale, with balanced roles, community involvement, resource and asset economies, and freedom only limited by productivity.  There isn't a dead end in that idea pool.

  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper LondonPosts: 2,751Member

    There are a handful of people who have always been rather pro sandbox in terms of their posting on these boards (myself included). Just as there are a handful of posters who spend their time doing nothing but trying to shout down sandboxes in sandbox orientated threads.

     

    Whilst there seems to be something of a boom in terms of hype for sandbox games and a plethora of sandbox threads of late, this is probably down to more people just being a bit fed up with the same old shit that gets shovelled down their throats of late in the mmo genre.

     

    That doesn't mean to say they are all looking for sandbox games, they just want something a bit different for a change.

     

    In general most people on the boards are neither exclusively "sandbox" or "themepark", they just like games.

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • tawesstawess LkpgPosts: 2,532Member Uncommon

    Mostly it is peer preasure. The "cool" crowd only dig in the sandbox right now so the lemmings does the same. 

     

    Personally prefer stompy mechs but that is because i got my sandbox fill back in my UO days... Nothing like open world PvP to make you enjoy sitting in a city doing crud and less.

  • MyTabbycatMyTabbycat SP, MOPosts: 312Member
    I prefer hybrids myself. But yes, there is a strong leaning towards sandboxes on this site. Which is partly why the hype meter is inaccurate.
  • FdzzaiglFdzzaigl Somewhere in nowherePosts: 2,309Member Uncommon

    I'm not a "sandbox player", nor do I think that people turned their backs on "themeparks".

    I do think people are starting to turn their backs on the repeated formulas in the gaming world, and not just in MMO gaming at that. In each case, people who have been in to gaming and have known the gaming world for a while seem to be (aka: not the crowd who has just rolled into it via facebook and apps).

    In my opinion, those people are slowly turning their backs on repeated games that forego creating new and interesting design of their own in favour of becoming the next blockbuster shooter, or making the next MMO with pretty artwork that turns out to be a grinder.

    Many observers recently commented that the game industry is in a crisis. I think the many recycled FPS games like the modern warfare series and others, together with other uninspired and short games and an MMO scene that focuses on threadmills is to blame.

    I feel like other players and myself are looking for games with a vision, games that provide interesting new concepts and possibilities without holding people by the nose while spying on their wallet. The sort of games that make you wonder what lies beyond the horizon in the game world, that keep on getting better, instead of turning drab.

    That doesn't necessarily mean "sandbox game" in my book. In fact, most sandbox games I've played are far worse grinders than anything out there in the themepark world. But the prospect of a game with a huge deal of options open to the player does seem to ring the sandbox tune to many players here.

    For me, the important thing is that games grow up and implement exciting new ideas and artistic directions. One of the challenges for the medium is to cope with the players messing around in and interacting with your game, binding the player unto a rail is a fake way of dealing with that.

    Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!

  • corpusccorpusc Chattanooga, TNPosts: 1,330Member
    Originally posted by TheHavok

     In reality, there have been multiple sandbox mmos released as well, but they just get nitpicky and start listing reasons why they aren't playing those sandboxes, saying things like

    A)They aren't 'true sandboxes'

    B)they have annoying features (ex: FFA pvp).

     

     

    not wanting to be constantly ganked by other players, and robbed of ALL your items.....that's just being nitpicky.   ROFL

    The End
    ---------------------------
    i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

  • corpusccorpusc Chattanooga, TNPosts: 1,330Member
    Originally posted by eyelolled
    I play themeparks because I haven't found a sandbox that has the features I want, with none of the features that I hate.

     

    this.  

     

    all these..... special people acting like things like full loot unrestricted FFA PVP everywhere shouldn't be a deterrent if you were a "TRUE SANDBOX FAN".......

     

    its like claiming nobody REALLY likes beef, and everyone prefers turkey..... just cuz you served cooked turkey burgers at a cookout, alongside stacks of raw beef patties that nobody bothered to cook, and nobody bothered to eat.

    just cuz they don't choke down a raw beef patty to PROVE something to you, doesn't mean that they prefer turkey burgers, and don't love beef.

     

    The End
    ---------------------------
    i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

  • MumboJumboMumboJumbo LondonPosts: 3,221Member

    GrumpyMel - explains the situtation REALLY well (high-level) in thread:Theme Park Trap:

     

    Originally posed by GrumpyMel2

    The thing with the Themepark Trap....regardless of whether you like that sort of game as a player or not....is that the cost to create content starts to exceed the amount of revenue you gain back from that content, or at least it's a very poor return on that labor and the investment involved. In Themeparks players play the game primarly to consume content. Creating that content tends to be a very labor intensive and cost intensive process, at least if you want to include many of the items (high rez graphics, cutscenes and voice-acting) that are "expected" in many themeparks. This hasn't been so much of the issue in the past when the market only had a few competitors and the subscription model was prevealent. People would maintain a sub and find fun things to do in it, hanging around month after month and paying you the sub price month after month. The problem is today they don't actualy NEED to do that anymore. They pay to go through your game F2P or Hybrid/Sub and when they are done with all the content you've built for them in a couple months rather then stiking around (and paying you), they go off to any one of the 2 dozen other Themeparks out there that they haven't consumed yet. They might come back to you when you release new content and pay for a few weeks to go through that. But then they'll be gone again.

    It's a bad value proposition for the investor and developer because there is just too much labor (and cash) involved in creating the content for too little return on it.

    Imagine if your cell phone provider had to give you a new cell phone every month in order for you to pay them. They wouldn't be making a very good return on thier money. Instead they make ALOT more money if they just give you the phone once, and let you continue to pay them money month after month, year after year without them having to do anything new (and costly) for you. That's the basic service model, and it's one that maximizes return on investment IF they can get customers.

    So what MMO's are TRYING to do is build the game structure and have the players amuse themselves (be thier own content) because it's a MUCH better return on investment for them. Sandbox games fit right into that wheelhouse as do FPS type games like Planetside2. The Developer doesn't have spend a ton of resources building content that the players will consume far too quickly (and for too little return) .

    The other way out of Themepark Trap...or at least to make it a have a reasonable ROI is to find a way to deliver high quality content to the players for very little money. I'm not sure if that's possible today, might have been in the past with lesser expectations of standards in MMO....but if it is, then it's not that big of a deal if people burned through your content quickly because it didn't cost you much time/money to build.

    Anyway I don't think will see alot of investment capital for big budget MMO's after TESO. It's just not enough return for the amount of risk involved...especialy in this climate. People aren't going to throw hundreds of millions of dollars to make an MMO anymore.

     

    themeparktrap

    CCP provide three interesting take-homes in these articles:

    EVE Online and the meaning of 'sandbox'

    CCP Online's three design pillars for sandbox MMOs

    -

    Initially I enjoyed themepark, but looking for something more lasting and rewarding in terms of the story generation of interacting with many different players in these virtual worlds. Should be RP-quality on a massive scale.

  • PKJackCrowPKJackCrow Ginowan cityPosts: 231Member

    I don't think that more people are turning to sandboxes, i just think that people want more freedom like they had in eq, doac, ac, swg and ff11 and not just scripted event after scripted event. I find it silly that people want to complain about grinding sometimes but thats a key thing you need to keep people playing mmos. They say i hate grinding mobs but spend all day running through the same dungoen over and over and over again.

    Also i think the people interested in exploration and crafting are feeling hungry for that feeling again.

    So its not that people are turning to sandboxes but in some cases that all they have now to get what they want since the old hybrids arent popular.

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Yup. They've pretty much always been this way. And their arguments have become more and more ridiculous of late.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • JoeyMMOJoeyMMO SomewherePosts: 1,326Member
    Sandbox-lovers have been overrepresented on this for quite a while. Whether there is a real shift is doubtful, but who knows, maybe sandboxes will become increasingly popular in the next few years.

    imageimage
  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,800Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MumboJumbo

    GrumpyMel - explains the situtation REALLY well (high-level) in thread:Theme Park Trap:

     

    Originally posed by GrumpyMel2

    The thing with the Themepark Trap....regardless of whether you like that sort of game as a player or not....is that the cost to create content starts to exceed the amount of revenue you gain back from that content, or at least it's a very poor return on that labor and the investment involved. In Themeparks players play the game primarly to consume content. Creating that content tends to be a very labor intensive and cost intensive process, at least if you want to include many of the items (high rez graphics, cutscenes and voice-acting) that are "expected" in many themeparks. This hasn't been so much of the issue in the past when the market only had a few competitors and the subscription model was prevealent. People would maintain a sub and find fun things to do in it, hanging around month after month and paying you the sub price month after month. The problem is today they don't actualy NEED to do that anymore. They pay to go through your game F2P or Hybrid/Sub and when they are done with all the content you've built for them in a couple months rather then stiking around (and paying you), they go off to any one of the 2 dozen other Themeparks out there that they haven't consumed yet. They might come back to you when you release new content and pay for a few weeks to go through that. But then they'll be gone again.

    It's a bad value proposition for the investor and developer because there is just too much labor (and cash) involved in creating the content for too little return on it.

    Imagine if your cell phone provider had to give you a new cell phone every month in order for you to pay them. They wouldn't be making a very good return on thier money. Instead they make ALOT more money if they just give you the phone once, and let you continue to pay them money month after month, year after year without them having to do anything new (and costly) for you. That's the basic service model, and it's one that maximizes return on investment IF they can get customers.

    So what MMO's are TRYING to do is build the game structure and have the players amuse themselves (be thier own content) because it's a MUCH better return on investment for them. Sandbox games fit right into that wheelhouse as do FPS type games like Planetside2. The Developer doesn't have spend a ton of resources building content that the players will consume far too quickly (and for too little return) .

    The other way out of Themepark Trap...or at least to make it a have a reasonable ROI is to find a way to deliver high quality content to the players for very little money. I'm not sure if that's possible today, might have been in the past with lesser expectations of standards in MMO....but if it is, then it's not that big of a deal if people burned through your content quickly because it didn't cost you much time/money to build.

    Anyway I don't think will see alot of investment capital for big budget MMO's after TESO. It's just not enough return for the amount of risk involved...especialy in this climate. People aren't going to throw hundreds of millions of dollars to make an MMO anymore.

     

    themeparktrap

    CCP provide three interesting take-homes in these articles:

    EVE Online and the meaning of 'sandbox'

    CCP Online's three design pillars for sandbox MMOs

    -

    Initially I enjoyed themepark, but looking for something more lasting and rewarding in terms of the story generation of interacting with many different players in these virtual worlds. Should be RP-quality on a massive scale.

    While it is an interesting read and some of the arguments are valid it is also clear the tools most developers give their content creators are insuficient and clunky.

    It will be interesting to see if Anet can keep creating content at a monthly schedule (the theory of many is that the content has been created before the game was released).

     

     

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    I think it depends on pve / pvp mix too. A heavy pve themepark game like swtor will burn content quicker than a heavy pvp themepark game like ps2
  • RusqueRusque Las Vegas, NVPosts: 2,228Member Uncommon

    I would like to say that mmorpg.com has more sandboxers than other places, but I'm beginning to think it has more to do with wanting really very very specific things within small groups or individuals. I've seen some people saying that Age of Wushu isn't a sandbox now or isn't a very good one and it just makes me wonder what exactly it will take to please these people.

    It's easy to come to the forums and go on and on with a laundry list of demands, but if you can't find any enjoyment in anything that comes out . . . maybe it's just you.

    One of the most amusing things was how hyped so many people were for GW2 despite it being a super casual themepark. It makes me scratch my head at what people want.

  • TerranahTerranah Stockton, CAPosts: 3,605Member

    I think there are a good number of sandbox players here.  But I think there is a lot of pent up demand for sandbox, and so the feeling has been building.  Old playes miss it and new players hear about it, feel what is lacking in themepark, and wonder how a good sandbox might be.

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member

    I will say this, MMORPG forum posters do not represent the majority of gamers, period. This is a very vocal minority that think they know what is best for the industry, inspite of the money that has been generated by said gaming compnies.

     

    People live in the Real World, they don't want to have to play in one. Don't want perma-death, full loot PvP, etc. People on this forum do. It seems to me this is a very vocal minority.

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • SwampRobSwampRob Halifax, NSPosts: 1,008Member
    Originally posted by botrytis

    I will say this, MMORPG forum posters do not represent the majority of gamers, period. This is a very vocal minority that think they know what is best for the industry, inspite of the money that has been generated by said gaming compnies.

     

    People live in the Real World, they don't want to have to play in one. Don't want perma-death, full loot PvP, etc. People on this forum do. It seems to me this is a very vocal minority.

    I've been video gaming since the 70's.

    I don't want perma-death, nor PvP of any kind, nor super-difficult content, etc.   You make a fair point, but please don't speak for all of us.

     

  • coretex666coretex666 PraguePosts: 1,934Member Uncommon

    I believe that the sandbox market is growing which is supported by relatively high number of sandbox games coming out in next a few years.

    Themeparks, on the other hand, lack innovation. Just look at themeparks released since WoW. I do not count games like PS 2 among MMORPGs. For me, it is simply shooter like Battlefield or CoD just in a massive scale. It is a good game though.

    To me it seems logical that for part of the community, themeparks are becoming less popular. I used to like them a lot 5-6 years ago, but now I wouldnt play any of the current "standard themeparks" (swtor, tera, rift, GW2,..) even if they paid me.

    On this forum, it may seem that everyone loves sandboxes and hates themeparks, but I think that the sandbox crowd is just a vocal minority. The themepark crowd is happily playing their games as they have plenty of games to choose from.

    But yes, I think there is a shift in preferences for part of the MMORPG community. The fact that quite many sandbox games are going to be released clearly supports it since they would unlikely be spending millions of dollars on a game for which there would not be sufficient demand / market.

    Waiting for L2 EU Classic

  • KalstarkKalstark fishkill, NYPosts: 63Member
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    "Sandbox" is the new "dyanamic event".  That word and it's horrible bastard cousin "sandbox-like feel" are the fotm.

    Anyway I'm a gamer, an opportunist, and won't commit to one genre religion or another.  I'll play whatever I think is fun (and even some I don't).

    not everyone is like you though. like the OP showed with the top games, this site is definately more sandbox friendly than themepark. when i play a mmo i dont play it because its a themepark or a sandpark i play it because i think its fun(shocking idea, i know) and when i dont like it i stop playing. to say the people on this site dont do anything but complain about themepark mmo's would be crazy. you could be talking about apples and somehow WoW or swtor would get brought up. look at this topic, already multiple times diffferent people have brought up the games they hate so much. id say at least 75% of the topics on these forums have some1 posting about WoW or another themepark mmo. i dont get it when i dont like something i dont support it at all, they wont get a youtube view from me, ill change the radio station if i dont like the music, ill change the channel on tv so there data doesnt benifit at all from me. and im happy knowing they did not get any support from me. but people on this site just complain and complain and complain and complain. i swear on my mothers life someone posted along the lines, " well its better to bash a game than over hype it" that right there is the attitude AT LEAST 75% of the people have on this site. and if anyone doesnt believe me go to general discussion and see how many times a game that has nothing to do with the topic will be brought up somehow

    image
  • TerranahTerranah Stockton, CAPosts: 3,605Member
    Originally posted by botrytis

    I will say this, MMORPG forum posters do not represent the majority of gamers, period. This is a very vocal minority that think they know what is best for the industry, inspite of the money that has been generated by said gaming compnies.

     

    People live in the Real World, they don't want to have to play in one. Don't want perma-death, full loot PvP, etc. People on this forum do. It seems to me this is a very vocal minority.

     I don't consider perma-death or full loot pvp to be sandbox features.  But that's the problem with the term though, not everyone agrees on what sandbox even is.

     

    To me it's an open world, and  player directed activity as opposed to endless questing.  I also like skill based advancement, the ability to mix and match skills, non combat professions apart from crafting, deep crafting systems, housing, player created cities, etc. 

     

    It's not for everyone. But then not everything is for everyone.  We've had several large budget themeparks that came after WOW, and we haven't had that big budget sandbox to really give the genre a chance.  Some people will say that is because of lack of demand, but I think it's lack of courage in a corporate culture that doesn't want to step outside the box. 

  • RamanadjinnRamanadjinn Huntsville, ALPosts: 1,365Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Terranah

    I think there are a good number of sandbox players here.  But I think there is a lot of pent up demand for sandbox, and so the feeling has been building.  Old playes miss it and new players hear about it, feel what is lacking in themepark, and wonder how a good sandbox might be.

     

    Thats a good point.

    Maybe we would be a little less vocal and demanding of them if we had more good choices.

    Personally, I have loved the sandbox style of game since i played Ultima 7. 

  • YizleYizle Atlanta, GAPosts: 517Member
    Originally posted by TribeofOne
    being in to sandbox mmo's is the cool thing to want, but the sandbox crowd has yet to be satisfied with any current sandbox offerings, kind of like the pvp crowd.. I honestly dont think any 1 game can/will ever satisfy. its like an ideal to dream about...at least until some builds a real holodeck!

    Well we have to have something to be satisfied with. We basically have Eve and thats it. It was great for a number of years but sadly its time has passed for me.

  • KalstarkKalstark fishkill, NYPosts: 63Member
    Originally posted by botrytis

    I will say this, MMORPG forum posters do not represent the majority of gamers, period. This is a very vocal minority that think they know what is best for the industry, inspite of the money that has been generated by said gaming compnies.

     

    People live in the Real World, they don't want to have to play in one. Don't want perma-death, full loot PvP, etc. People on this forum do. It seems to me this is a very vocal minority.

    well said. idk about the perma death and full loot pvp etc stuff cuz i mean i dont want it but i could see why some people would. but what you said about them being a very small minoirty with the loudest mouths in 100% right. and by 100% i mean its a fact. theres no two sides of facts people 

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