Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
What does sandbox mean to you?
stori11
Member Posts: 26
Im really curious what does sandbox exactly to mean other people. Because I see those so called sandbox mmo's and I dont really understand how exactly they are sandbox. Does unrestricted character progression make a sandbox? Or is it gameplay without any poorly thought through gameplay devices that are designed to keep the player playing and thus keep him paying? Allthough I think the gear threadmills and other forms of power creep are just unnecessary at this point where most mmorpgs are going f2p or b2p and there is no real reason to have a poorly designed gameplay meant to consume time not bring entertainment. Because lets face it, power creep isnt there so you can have fun, its there so you keep paying your subscription. I think its time to move on from those flat out bad gameplay designs and onto truly sandbox gameplay.
What I think about when I hear sandbox is exactly what that word means. A box full of sand, a playground. Player driven content, the ability to affect the enviroment and not with phases or something alike. Think minecraft on massive scale, thats a sandbox mmo. Now add to that better graphics obviously, some forms of character progression obviously but not character progression that is the centre of all the gameplay. Add to that economy which is completely player driven. No developer set currency, just resources. Currency is a bad concept in general and you should know that. Imagine giant cities created by players, imagine faction wars where the faction isnt made up of npcs but players.
You can say thats just not going to happen, but the truth is it can happen and most likely everntually will. Go search up starforge, or hell, even think minecraft. Now imagine those games created with a giant budget. Now you can say that such a game would never be able to get such a budget because investors don't gamble their money, they invest into games that are sure to sell in their opinion. But now we have kickstarters, indie developers are actually starting to gain attention and survivng as an indie developer is not an impossible task anymore.
I think games like that will eventually happen. Not from the hands of developers controlled by investors or corporations, but from indie developers backed by players. We just need to give it a bit of time.
Also at some point I think I went completely off topic or missed the point of the topic ;_;
Comments
A lot of people confuse what a sandbox is with what they would like in their MMORPG. A lot of features such as an open world without instances are simply MMO features and not necessarily sandbox features and a lot of features like a skill system instead of a class system is simply one of the many RPG progression options.
A sandbox is fundamentally a world a player can shape through tools provided by the developer. This world can be MMO or not, it can involve a character walking around in the world or not. God games like The Sims and Black & White are sandbox games as are non-MMO games like Minecraft.
/thread
For me, a sandbox world is a simulation, a themepark world is a game.
Simulation = Turn me loose in a world to do what I want with whatever tools the developer has provided.
Game = Developer provides a one-path or multi-path route to completion with developer provided content (tasks, stories) along the way.
a game that has few, simple rules, but many possibilities. few helpful hints, but a ton of combinations. little dev created content, but lots of tools for players to create their own content. freedom to alter the world and create structures and alterations wherever players see fit. as little instancing as possible with huge enphasis on open world. ability to attack anyone, anywere at any time even though in some places that might incurr swift and painful consequences. enphasis on community instead of soloability.
I agree.
For me, sandbox = Ultima Online. The more a mmo is near the UO setting, more "sandboxy" is it.
Currently bored with MMO's.
Can I ask which sandbox games you played that gave you that impression? The reason I ask is because that is exactly my experience with the themepark focused MMOs I played (WOW, Aion, L2, EQ). Grinding level, grinding crafting, raiding, gear chasing - it all seemed like a second job to me. Conversely, Second Life. Kaneva, UO and EVE all seemed to throw open the door to a wide range of stuff I could pick and choose from based on my available time and who was around.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Simply put:
Non-combat play. A game where you can spend 100% or near 100% of your time logged on, and never having to kill a single NPC mob.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
This is a nice simple answer to a very complex question
I agree.
Show me a feature in a sandbox ill show you it in a themepark.
The only difference is the words themselves.
world pvp? seen in many themeparks
Skills over levels? seen that in a themepark too
rocks that run out of ores? themepark also
Landscape changed by the people of the game? seen that one too..
Live a life without hunting monsters? yep have done that also in a themepark.
I think someone came up with another way to segregate and categorize games
just to start a fight amoungst people.
O
Destiny has cheated me
By forcing me to decide upon
The woman that I idolise
Or the hands of an automaton
Without these hands I can't complete
The opera that was captivating her
But if I keep them, and she marries him
Then he probably won't want me dating her
This is the main part of it to me, too. It's about having solid gameplay that isn't all about combat. Crafting that's fully fleshed out enough to be a whole game in itself. Not like themepark crafting, where it's just this little thing combat classes do on the side.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
My opinion - sandbox means you are given fery few rules (compared to a themepark game) to play around with, and most of the time given ways to influence the environment or at least explore it with a more open ended approach than a themepark game. Usually involves a player economy and crafting that has actual use rather than a moneysink to go along with, though it's optional for me.
There's a sensible expectation for the rules though. Second Life has too few rules to be considered a game to me. Games like Minecraft, Wakfu, etc. have rules that are gamelike but give you much freedom.
WOW THANKS FOR THE INPUT I WAS NOT AWARE THAT DIFFERENT PEOPLE HAVE DIFFERENT AND SOMETIMES CONFLICTING OPINIONS +1000000000 FUCKING REP FOR YOU
Why aren't people getting banned for posting crap like that or quoting someone and saying "/thread"?
Also I think that developers might be very much confused by the different demands users make, especially when everyone wants a sandbox mmorpg but almost every single person means something else by sandbox :0 I also agree with the non combat gameplay, I think games focus too much on it, while combat should always be something you can do and always and option, gameplay should absolutely not be centered around it.
well i have some features i look for in the game to call it sandbox, but i can disregard those and say it in 1 sentence:
ability to permanently affect the world not only for yourself but also for everyone else.
(edit: sure there is always chance that some other player undo my "changes", or things like server reset does, but unless they do, it is permanent)
Well Said ^^
http://mmocultgr.blogspot.com
Build, buy, craft (ok I hate crafting, but the facility should be there for others to make me things to buy, lol), set up my own businesses for profit and/or freight commodoties to other towns to trade for profits, research new things to make, gather resources. Tame my own riding mounts and pets, explore anywhere I want in a world not run on rails, have NPCs remember me and my good/bad actions to shape my storyline. That's just for starters.
Eve Online is the one and only game I've found that approaches that, though not in every regard obviously. If there was a Fantasy MMO equivalent made by the same company I'd drop all other games and play that.
For me, a Sandbox is akin to playing with lego. The developers give you the pieces and you build what you want. The limit is my imagination.
A themepark is going to lego land.
Those are mechanics and they can be used in any type of game. It's the implementation that determines the difference.
World PVP - Done for leaderboards and rankings, it's a themepark feature. As part of a larger territorial control system that affects the game economy and politics it now has sandbox style gameplay to it.
Skill progression - Done with class restriction, it's a themepark feature. Done as an open-ended system allowing players to fit the character to their playstyle/interests it becomes more sandboxy.
Rocks that run out of ore - Kind of a crazy thing to bring up, but again it's something that is just a mechanic that can be used for systems in either direction.
Terraforming - in most cases, this is the definition of sandbox, as nothing is more sandboxy that building things in the sand.
Life without hunting mobs - Yes, there's probably some themepark MMOs where you don't kill things to progress. In most, though, you'd have to actively work against the design of the game to do it, as the game is made to lead you along a path of killing.
BTW, can you give examples of the themepark style MMOs with terraforming and skill-based systems? It would go a long way toward showing you how each is implemented and what systems they support.
Something to remember is that there are both themepark and sandbox features in every MMO. They are two of the three main components that make up an MMO, social being the third. Each game tends to lean more heavily toward one or two of the three components with the other feature(s) being only a minor part of gameplay.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
To me, the definitive sandbox game is Minecraft. You can modify the terrain and build anything, anywhere. Sky cities, underwater cities, under mountain cities, or blimps. There are very few limits within the confines of the game and Minecraft is still a game in itself, unlike Garry's Mod or Second Life where the user isn't so much playing a game as using an application to build stuff that may or may not be part of a game.
Games like Darkfall or Eve I would consider an even mix of "sandbox" and "open world". For the purposes of talking to people about the games though, I would call them sandboxes.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
a sandbox to my definition contains three very apparent things.
1.) a massively open world. Few or no invisible walls. The world includes unique and varied landmarks, climates, flora and or fauna. The world seems alive and vibrant < aka not like tor>. Now i have to be careful here cause some theme parks do a really excellent job of making their cubed worlds feel very immersive and alive so the open world also means little to no instancing.
2.) player crafting/enonomy...it doesn't have to be as conveluded and boring as eve..but crafting should play a role in that the game doesn't just shovel gear at players. Crafting can encompass simple resource gather and recipies to constructing player housing or vehicles.
3.) non instanced player housing...now bare with me because in some genres it make sno sense to have a house...aka surivial mmo etc. However when housing IS implemented it should act as its own metagame, providing community access, it's own niche economy etc. It can be minimalistic or very involved. This ties into user generated content and crafting providing other avenues of economic success.
4.) open world consensual pvp....where alot of sandboxes fail regardless of whether others want to admit it is open world non consensual pvp, Part of a sandbox is immersion..but punishing players with full loot loss is just a real retardant to player retention.there are a few exceptions where risk should be incurred to offset gankfesting.
those to me are the basic pillars of a sanbox. there is the option for a hybring sandbox/themepark mmo, hwever it shoudl not strongarm people into questing or gear grinds. The ones that got the most right in these discussion points in my eyes are vanguard and SWG. To me eve regardless to how much many on here love the game failed. Yes it has a strong player base but it presents a space mmo as a cold, ravenous world with little inclusion of the dreaded casual player. I was a casual player in swg for the life of the game...i never felt pressured to loging for hours on end to mine something, or grind skills and the environment never intentionally put me to sleep...it was space in a realisticsetting but fun. Vanguard truly had player housing done right....the closest theme parks come to me is free realms and eq2...maybe a close thirdrift. Even though free realms is instanced they have the ability to display your housing to the public, and the building toold are very intuative.
so say we all
No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin