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What the hell is going on with the anti holy trinity lately

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  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,978Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Khelden

    When I read they were going to release an elder scroll online, I thought it was a great idea...

    Now, reading a bit on the left and right, I came to learn that the game WON'T have an aggro system. Seriously, after GW2 failfest I don't understand why company still try to go that way. Even in GW2 high end players were recreating a holy trinity by using game gimmicks, which was far from being fun let me add.

    Being a tank in every game that I play (single player too when I can...), this is simply a big fun killer for me. The holy trinity is nothing but efficient tactic.

    I don't know, make the game not REQUIRE holy trinity, why not give it a try... But simply DENYING this aspect by not having aggro system at all is just wrong from my point of view.

    I will probably try the game nonetheless, but my hopes for this game went from high to underground with this.

    Sources:

    http://www.elderscrollsguides.com/the-elder-scrolls-online-leaked-info-so-far/

    http://www.rpgamer.com/news/Q4-2012/102212a.html

    The thing is that tanking have been pretty bad in MMOs for a long while.

    Of course there are other ways to solve this than removing them but something has to be done. A better AI and more focus on bodyblocking while removing taunts would work for example, but tanks makes almost all MMO combats besides huge raids rather boring.

    Tanking used to be pretty hard work and that was at least pretty fun but for the last 10 years they have dumbed it down so much that the whole thing either needs to be removed or totally revamped.

    A tank must be forced to react and think fast, and tanking needs to be more about positioning and tactics and less about skill rotation if the trinity wants to survive the next 10 years.

    Personally wouldnt I miss it, it was a simple system made for Meridian 59 and the idea that you cant invent something better is just silly. Of course a new system takes some time to get used to and many will have problems in the start but MMOs do need to evolve instead of just being even more simplified.

  • CaldicotCaldicot StockholmPosts: 432Member Uncommon

    I'm hoping to see an intelligent aggro system where NPCs actually "evaluates" the situation and targets the player who poses the biggest threat at any given time. Kinda how a typical PvP session would play out. 

    Of course, sometimes you want to intentionally dumb down the AI. For example, a big dumb ogre might start bashing at the first thing he sees.

     

    If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe. - Carl Sagan

  • SasamiSasami HelsinkiPosts: 326Member
    Originally posted by UWNVME

    My biggest complaint with the "holy trinity" is that it's outdated and stale. I think pure healing characters are a terrible design and developers who stick with the trinity template have done very little to make healing classes more appealing. There's a reason why WoW has always had a shortage of healers, it's because the vast majority of players when in combat, don't want to play the role whose only purpose is to stand back and target heal whoever's health falls low. It's completely 1-dimensional, so much that in most scenarios, the role of a healer can be done succesfully by a programmable bot.

    My belief, is that pure healing needs to be done away with and replaced with a role that's based on supporting using a variety of utility skills such as crowd control, shields, buffs/debuffs, and limited healing. And keep the variety going, let's have both combative support characters who are designed to get in and fight, as well as the more passive ones who don't. This is how I'm hoping GW2's meta will eventually evolve into, and quite frankly I think it's far more interesting than the standard tank/healer/dps.

    WoW fixed this by making boss battles and dungeon fights more mobile. Most mobs force everyone to move all around. Also CC for healers have been part of play style in WoW for years. Aggro is needed because it makes combat less chaos and that's whole point of raiding, how well you can organize chaotic moments. Holy Trinity problem is that it's largely unbalanced in raiding or groups, normally you have 10% Tanks, 30% healer and rest dps. It should be closer to 30% for every role. Also Holy Trinity doesn't fit PvP at all. GW2 showed that all faults that non-aggro system has, it's boring and chaotic mess. 

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member

    I do miss player collision and how it made tanking viable in PvP...

    I probably had the most fun ever in PvP in WAR in early Tier 1 playing as a Black Ork and actually tanking players and blocking ranged attacks against our ranged/healers and being able to harass enemy casters/DPS even if my damage output wasn't great.

    But what really took the cake was UO on the Siege Perilous shard playing with an organized RP guild - we'd use the collision detection and swarm tactics to box an enemy player in and just beat on them from four sides at once...

    Good times.

  • loulakiloulaki PatrasPosts: 918Member

    well the lack of holy trinity works awesome for GW2, the OP who calls it failfest its his opinion .

     

    its good at TESO they dont look at these mechanics, just if they left ahead and their static battles .. : /

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  • Zenimax have said TESO offers the possibility to specialise and be something like a tank or a healer, but that it's not as simple as just the holy trinity. So it may be they'll offer other roles than just tanking, healing and DPSing. Crowd control and buffing could be additional options. But when specialisation is possible, it'll probably be the optimal thing to do on some occasions. At any rate, I'm glad they don't go the route of GW2 because I really like to specialise my characters.
  • InFlamestwoInFlamestwo HindPosts: 662Member

    New games focus more on physical blocking and dodging, rather than taunting and stats with % block chance. This allow more freedoom and skill>stats. You can still tank but not in the same way, healing is still there and dps will always be there.

     

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  • lindhskylindhsky Helsingborg, FLPosts: 129Member Uncommon

    I agree, I am not fan of the GW2 system either. I rather see they do like they did in RIFT. Every class could spec to be a tank if they want to.

    I like the system were DPS:ers have to think about how much damage they do initially and who they are damaging and the tank needs to gather mobs and create aggro.

    I understand that new games want to come up with new systems and new changes because that is what they think will sell the game now in the era when new games come out all the time. But this is not a system that I don't want them to change. I like that different players have different types of roles.

  • RusqueRusque Las Vegas, NVPosts: 2,229Member Uncommon

    The solution to a no trinity/no aggro game is to build it like an action game.

    Mobs never auto attack. Every battle should be about positioning and blocking or evading attacks. Auto-attacking mobs is why we need tanks, if mobs performed "moves" which showed up in some way be it exaggerated animation or circle on ground , then we could have a no aggro game.

    Those fights in GW2 that are the most fun are against veteran mobs that spam their special attack so that you have to manage your abilities, find ways to not get hit and take down the mob. The moment a mob auto-attacks, someone has to take the damage. And that's why not having a trinity sucks in a game of auto attacks.

    Look at DMC, GoW, NG, Demon's Souls. They're not built around auto attacking mobs, they're about telegraphed moves and attacks that you can avoid.

    So maybe everyone should start making noise about auto-attacking because that's the real culprit.

  • kurosenshukurosenshu ToulousePosts: 49Member Uncommon

    I'm sorry but I for one hope to see more games follow a.net's vision of no crappy holy trinity.

    hahahaha I have to laugh at this line: Guild Wars 2 Failfest jajajajaj in you dreams buddy !

    The trinity is just 100% predictable patterns and a sure fire way to control the enemy 100% of the time 

    that is lame and boring gameplay to me, alwayss knowing how and when is boring, predictability is one of the major issues in the mmorpg genre and it's one of the main reasons the genre is so stagnant.

    There's no surprise, no creativity no sense of danger for anyone else but the tank in holy trinity.

    Not to mention the felling that if you don't play a tank or healer you don't really matter much at all.

    DPS is kicked out of party very easily but no one would dare kick the main tank or the main healer oh no that'd be a sin, which leads to  entitlement, ego issues and bad community.

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  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    No trinity and no agro are separate things

    You can drop agro rules and still have trinity by making tanks the primary crowd controllers
  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Which from what I understand is what TESO is doing.
  • GrayGhost79GrayGhost79 Webster, MAPosts: 4,813Member
    Originally posted by Axxar
    Zenimax have said TESO offers the possibility to specialise and be something like a tank or a healer, but that it's not as simple as just the holy trinity. So it may be they'll offer other roles than just tanking, healing and DPSing. Crowd control and buffing could be additional options. But when specialisation is possible, it'll probably be the optimal thing to do on some occasions. At any rate, I'm glad they don't go the route of GW2 because I really like to specialise my characters.

    The changes to the trinity for TESO is going to come from the lack of an aggro table. Everyone is equally likely to get attacked. With a system like that a pure tank or a pure healer could not survive. It's closer to the GW2 route than you think.  

  • Originally posted by GrayGhost79
    Originally posted by Axxar
    Zenimax have said TESO offers the possibility to specialise and be something like a tank or a healer, but that it's not as simple as just the holy trinity. So it may be they'll offer other roles than just tanking, healing and DPSing. Crowd control and buffing could be additional options. But when specialisation is possible, it'll probably be the optimal thing to do on some occasions. At any rate, I'm glad they don't go the route of GW2 because I really like to specialise my characters.

    The changes to the trinity for TESO is going to come from the lack of an aggro table. Everyone is equally likely to get attacked. With a system like that a pure tank or a pure healer could not survive. It's closer to the GW2 route than you think.  

    I very much doubt that will be the case for TESO.

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Nah you will tank through crowd control, just like you do in daoc and war pvp.
  • GrayGhost79GrayGhost79 Webster, MAPosts: 4,813Member
    Originally posted by Axxar
    Originally posted by GrayGhost79
    Originally posted by Axxar
    Zenimax have said TESO offers the possibility to specialise and be something like a tank or a healer, but that it's not as simple as just the holy trinity. So it may be they'll offer other roles than just tanking, healing and DPSing. Crowd control and buffing could be additional options. But when specialisation is possible, it'll probably be the optimal thing to do on some occasions. At any rate, I'm glad they don't go the route of GW2 because I really like to specialise my characters.

    The changes to the trinity for TESO is going to come from the lack of an aggro table. Everyone is equally likely to get attacked. With a system like that a pure tank or a pure healer could not survive. It's closer to the GW2 route than you think.  

    I very much doubt that will be the case for TESO.

    Considering they stated it was I don't know why you would doubt it. But everyone is entitled to their opinion lol. Re-read the interviews and specifically search "The Elder Scrolls Online, No Aggro system". It will bring up relevant articles and interviews. 

     

    They've even said something along the lines of "Healers will need to be stealthy and sneaky to heal". 

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    I expect tanks to have pvp tanking facilities like guard & hold the line from warhammer,coupled with collision detection and tanks been the primary crowd controllers. But not have taunts, and nothave + agro moves as there is no agro table.

    You would tank by pushing a mob into the scenery, using hold the line style abilities to prevent ranged damage to the party, using guard to take damage off the currently attacked party member and using stuns, knock backs and pulls and what have you to herd up mobs that run for other players.

    Entirely doable, pvpers have tanked like this for years. Pveers don't need an archaic threat table to be able to tank.
  • dimnikardimnikar ZanistanvillePosts: 271Member

    Homogenization of classes is what made WoW boring. Not trinity, but the dillution of trinity (+ the required supporting roles like buffers, debuffers, CC, etc). GW2 just exacerbates that - it's just horrendously simplistic.

    I guess nobody remembers hunter pulling, caster tanking, HARD cc upkeep, dispelling etc etc and that's just WoW's "boring" trinity, which many of you seem to think is tank/healer and THAT'S IT.

  • Originally posted by GrayGhost79
    Originally posted by Axxar
    Originally posted by GrayGhost79
    Originally posted by Axxar
    Zenimax have said TESO offers the possibility to specialise and be something like a tank or a healer, but that it's not as simple as just the holy trinity. So it may be they'll offer other roles than just tanking, healing and DPSing. Crowd control and buffing could be additional options. But when specialisation is possible, it'll probably be the optimal thing to do on some occasions. At any rate, I'm glad they don't go the route of GW2 because I really like to specialise my characters.

    The changes to the trinity for TESO is going to come from the lack of an aggro table. Everyone is equally likely to get attacked. With a system like that a pure tank or a pure healer could not survive. It's closer to the GW2 route than you think.  

    I very much doubt that will be the case for TESO.

    Considering they stated it was I don't know why you would doubt it. But everyone is entitled to their opinion lol. Re-read the interviews and specifically search "The Elder Scrolls Online, No Aggro system". It will bring up relevant articles and interviews. 

     

    They've even said something along the lines of "Healers will need to be stealthy and sneaky to heal". 

    Considering they've stated want to let us specialise into certain roles I don't see why you wouldn't doubt it, but I suppose you're entitled your opinion, lol. There's an interview where they state it'll be possible to be a stealthy healer, but I haven't heard of one where it said it would be required.

    Also what Shaky said.

  • IIIcurrierIIIcurrier Kalispell, MTPosts: 88Member
    Because holy trinity is fake, it's an excuse for a lack of proper class and skill mechanics.
  • GrayGhost79GrayGhost79 Webster, MAPosts: 4,813Member
    Originally posted by Axxar
    Originally posted by GrayGhost79
    Originally posted by Axxar
    Originally posted by GrayGhost79
    Originally posted by Axxar
    Zenimax have said TESO offers the possibility to specialise and be something like a tank or a healer, but that it's not as simple as just the holy trinity. So it may be they'll offer other roles than just tanking, healing and DPSing. Crowd control and buffing could be additional options. But when specialisation is possible, it'll probably be the optimal thing to do on some occasions. At any rate, I'm glad they don't go the route of GW2 because I really like to specialise my characters.

    The changes to the trinity for TESO is going to come from the lack of an aggro table. Everyone is equally likely to get attacked. With a system like that a pure tank or a pure healer could not survive. It's closer to the GW2 route than you think.  

    I very much doubt that will be the case for TESO.

    Considering they stated it was I don't know why you would doubt it. But everyone is entitled to their opinion lol. Re-read the interviews and specifically search "The Elder Scrolls Online, No Aggro system". It will bring up relevant articles and interviews. 

     

    They've even said something along the lines of "Healers will need to be stealthy and sneaky to heal". 

    Considering they've stated want to let us specialise into certain roles I don't see why you wouldn't doubt it, but I suppose you're entitled your opinion, lol. There's an interview where they state it'll be possible to be a stealthy healer, but I haven't heard of one where it said it would be required.

    Also what Shaky said.

    The thing is I agree with Shaky as well. The Holy Trinity isn't what he's talking about though believe it or not. You guys are actually talking about what existed before the trinity. The trinity is exactly what it says. 3 classes that are needed to do much of anything. 

    Tank, Heal, DPS

     

    There use to be a wider variety or roles. Things have devolved into the trinity and the trinity is what most are against. No one is really against different roles. 

     

    The Tank can't simply grab all the aggro from mobs and have the healer keep him/her alive while the rest kill everything off due to the lack of the aggro system that the trinity relies on. 

    Don't mistake that with me saying there will be no roles, there will always be roles, but TESO should have a lot more diversity and will need it to truly handle the lack of an aggro table. 

     

  • DragonantisDragonantis DublinPosts: 974Member
    I have nothing against the Holy Trinity but I think its becoming a ball and chain slowing the progression of MMO's, it should be an optional tactic but not a requirement for success in games, instead of the games mechanics being built around it.
  • evolver1972evolver1972 Port Orchard, WAPosts: 1,118Member

    GW2 didn't get rid of the trinity.  It got rid of each character being stuck in a static trinity-based role.  Once a tank, always a tank.  How boring is that?

     

    I prefer something a little more ambiguous and fluid.  I prefer to play my character the way I want to play it, and play it according to the situation, not some developers idea of what I should be doing.  I also prefer to not stand around LOOKING FOR HEALER over and over so I can finish that last dungeon.

     

    I've seen people complain about how GW2 doesn't have enough skills for your character.  Interesting since those skills can be used in a variety of situations.  Yet, using the same skills over and over, but having more to choose from while performing the same tasks over and over is just loads of fun compared to GW2.  Yeah, ok.

    image

    You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???

    Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!

  • vandal5627vandal5627 Jersey City, NJPosts: 586Member Uncommon
    Trinity or no trinity is just a mechanic.  It's not about having them or not but about how you implement either or in your game.  Both can be fun and enjoyable.
  • Originally posted by GrayGhost79
    Originally posted by Axxar
    Originally posted by GrayGhost79
    Originally posted by Axxar
    Originally posted by GrayGhost79
    Originally posted by Axxar
    Zenimax have said TESO offers the possibility to specialise and be something like a tank or a healer, but that it's not as simple as just the holy trinity. So it may be they'll offer other roles than just tanking, healing and DPSing. Crowd control and buffing could be additional options. But when specialisation is possible, it'll probably be the optimal thing to do on some occasions. At any rate, I'm glad they don't go the route of GW2 because I really like to specialise my characters.

    The changes to the trinity for TESO is going to come from the lack of an aggro table. Everyone is equally likely to get attacked. With a system like that a pure tank or a pure healer could not survive. It's closer to the GW2 route than you think.  

    I very much doubt that will be the case for TESO.

    Considering they stated it was I don't know why you would doubt it. But everyone is entitled to their opinion lol. Re-read the interviews and specifically search "The Elder Scrolls Online, No Aggro system". It will bring up relevant articles and interviews. 

     

    They've even said something along the lines of "Healers will need to be stealthy and sneaky to heal". 

    Considering they've stated want to let us specialise into certain roles I don't see why you wouldn't doubt it, but I suppose you're entitled your opinion, lol. There's an interview where they state it'll be possible to be a stealthy healer, but I haven't heard of one where it said it would be required.

    Also what Shaky said.

    The thing is I agree with Shaky as well. The Holy Trinity isn't what he's talking about though believe it or not. You guys are actually talking about what existed before the trinity. The trinity is exactly what it says. 3 classes that are needed to do much of anything. 

    Tank, Heal, DPS

     

    There use to be a wider variety or roles. Things have devolved into the trinity and the trinity is what most are against. No one is really against different roles. 

     

    The Tank can't simply grab all the aggro from mobs and have the healer keep him/her alive while the rest kill everything off due to the lack of the aggro system that the trinity relies on. 

    Don't mistake that with me saying there will be no roles, there will always be roles, but TESO should have a lot more diversity and will need it to truly handle the lack of an aggro table. 

     

    So basically you're agreeing with my initial post that there'll be more roles than just tank, healer and DPS?

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