No in all seriousness I agree with the OP - MMOs have been sadly lacking in many of the immersive aspects most single players games have flourished with.
Is it the MMO genre as a platform? Is it prioritization of other features?
There are still countless MMOs released without things like sitting in chairs, swimming, jumping... may not be important to others but to me it breaks the feeling of being a character in this world which is important in the MMO space.
Your interpretation of the problem is a false equivalence.
Sitting requires 1 animation across many models once. Sheathing requires many animations across many models many times.
I understand waning more RP-like features, but this is one that actually takes more effort than it's worth.
I (like others) would be 100% perfectly fine with shared animations / models for all weapons of a particular type.
But I like the more basic/realistic medieval models for weapons/armor in most games - not all the curvy made of crystal and/or on fire + 3x times normal size ones.
Somehow I have a feeling if very few weapon models were available to people that there would be many, many more people complaining about lack of variation in weapons.
I mean, in many, many games they already complain about it.
You could use your imagination. Say the character's backs or the weapons themselves are sticky. That is why they can be carried around like that.
EDIT: In any case, not even close to a game breaking or making feature.
I can honestly say that I have never once considered how weapons were holstered, OP managed to bring up something new that never occurred to me before.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
2 times the time to make it happen isn't even close.
Quite frankly there's not been an engine built for it. In single player games or MMOs. There are games that use visual tricks to a better extent than others.
Overall I don't think anyone cares. In a world with dragons, demons, or thousands of rounds of ammo kept in someone's imagination it doesn't matter.
Your interpretation of the problem is a false equivalence.
Sitting requires 1 animation across many models once. Sheathing requires many animations across many models many times.
I understand waning more RP-like features, but this is one that actually takes more effort than it's worth.
I (like others) would be 100% perfectly fine with shared animations / models for all weapons of a particular type.
But I like the more basic/realistic medieval models for weapons/armor in most games - not all the curvy made of crystal and/or on fire + 3x times normal size ones.
Somehow I have a feeling if very few weapon models were available to people that there would be many, many more people complaining about lack of variation in weapons.
I mean, in many, many games they already complain about it.
True...
But I'm the guy who finds a basic yet cool looking set of armor/weapons and such and just re-uses the skins over and over through systems like Transmog or Appearance tabs etc.
Hell it's 2013 and Appearance tabs and Armor dying isn't a MMO industry standard yet - which is absolutely ridiculous to me.
We were dying armor and clothes and hair/beards back in UO... 14 years ago.
Your interpretation of the problem is a false equivalence.
Sitting requires 1 animation across many models once. Sheathing requires many animations across many models many times.
I understand waning more RP-like features, but this is one that actually takes more effort than it's worth.
I (like others) would be 100% perfectly fine with shared animations / models for all weapons of a particular type.
But I like the more basic/realistic medieval models for weapons/armor in most games - not all the curvy made of crystal and/or on fire + 3x times normal size ones.
Somehow I have a feeling if very few weapon models were available to people that there would be many, many more people complaining about lack of variation in weapons.
I mean, in many, many games they already complain about it.
True...
But I'm the guy who finds a basic yet cool looking set of armor/weapons and such and just re-uses the skins over and over through systems like Transmog or Appearance tabs etc.
Hell it's 2013 and Appearance tabs and Armor dying isn't a MMO industry standard yet - which is absolutely ridiculous to me.
We were dying armor and clothes and hair/beards back in UO... 14 years ago.
Another false equivalency. Dyes =/= weapon sheathes for every weapon model including animations.
I don't know what you guys are talking about dev time..
It's rigging a mesh that has a standard size (The blade).
Multiply that by weapon types and you've a pretty easy job, dare I say it could add cosmetic appeal much like all those bunny ears and cloaks people pine after?
(This is what I would do with my current ability in 3d modeling not to say this is the BEST method)
Make the weapons
G-Sword > Large Mesh
L-Sword > Medium Mesh
So on and so forth, Now copy blade, increase geometry by a few degrees and ...bam.
Next, make withdraw animation, (Easily done with any 3d program including freebies), now take that animation, apply it to the models dds and bipety bopety bam! Once again you've defeated the "hard work", as for the clipping? Float it off the waist and not the hip , make the hip a hard point (if the engine allows) and you are done.
1 Sheathed weapon mesh, static.
2 Unsheathed weapon mesh, static.
3 Sheathed weapon mesh, Static.
I think most of you are thinking the ENTIRE weapon is sheathed and not the simple part. The killy part. The blade. I know there are weird blades out there, with big teeth etc, well whatever just mesh a bigger sheath so on.
It can be done, hell I just made about 50 weapons in M&B warband this weekend and it took me about 30 minutes, that includes sheath, as luckily most weapon models are standard size tri's etc...and thus sheath options are a breeze.
A professional should be able to do 6x the work as my amateur hour self.
Edit: All in all there should be almost no noticable change in performance, not with the current gen of tech (Hell even 5 years ago tech can handle this) it is one extra model, the texture? You can just make it black.
And since I've heard some silly stuff... Mabinogi has done this and it's a old mmo. Mmo's can easily do this, don't let the cop out "it's a bunch of work" be the excuse for laziness.
With that mindset cloaks, hair etc is the same thing, and in many cultures the sheath is just as powerful a weapon as the blade, and thus can be another stat set...so on.
It's just added value, we used to call this Quality of life in the mmo world, but most seem to just not care for those items, or pretend they don't.
Why are we still dealing with the primitive way weapons are holstered?
Because no one has complained about it. There's no reason for devs to change something that successfully fullfills several roles (vanity, functionality, aesthetics) if no one has expressed an issue with it.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
But I'm the guy who finds a basic yet cool looking set of armor/weapons and such and just re-uses the skins over and over through systems like Transmog or Appearance tabs etc.
Hell it's 2013 and Appearance tabs and Armor dying isn't a MMO industry standard yet - which is absolutely ridiculous to me.
We were dying armor and clothes and hair/beards back in UO... 14 years ago.
Another false equivalency. Dyes =/= weapon sheathes for every weapon model including animations.
I'm not talking unique animations and sheathed appearances for every single weapon model in a game.
Maybe in pure fantasy land but yeah - that is ridiculous amount of extra work for very little benefit.
I'd be happier to just use the same "putting your weapon away" animation the games already use, and just throwing a basic (again maybe 3-4 per weapon type based on size?) sheath / cover on the model as it sits floating off your hip / back.
It can be done, hell I just made about 50 weapons in M&B warband this weekend and it took me about 30 minutes, that includes sheath, as luckily most weapon models are standard size tri's etc...and thus sheath options are a breeze.
Just two lines of code!
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
It can be done, hell I just made about 50 weapons in M&B warband this weekend and it took me about 30 minutes, that includes sheath, as luckily most weapon models are standard size tri's etc...and thus sheath options are a breeze.
Just two lines of code!
Dude not even that, it's like one line with a case.
Because take every weapon in the game and add +1 for every.single.one to create a model/texture for the sheathed version.
Well, you "could" cheat and have every 1H sword look the same when sheathed for example and reduce the workload by a whole hell of a lot, but people would complain about that too.
Would it be unrealistic to create maybe 3-4 sheathed models/textures for each weapon type?
I don't think so.
But when so many weapons have different handles as well as shaped blades.... you see the problem.
Damned if you do - damned if you don't.
It works in the Zelda example because EVERY player of Zelda has the same sword...
^^^^^ this, basically.
Making characters visibly sheathe and unsheathe their weapons is very doable, but it's a lot of work. It's a question of priorities and where you want to put the work in developing a game. Would a game be better if it only had 2/3 as many armor and weapon options, but had an animation to properly sheathe every single weapon in the game? Would it be better if you had just as many armor and weapon options, but the options are just different textures on a few basic shapes, and in exchange, there are animations created to sheathe and unsheathe those few shapes?
That's a matter of opinion, and you could reasonably argue that yes, it would be better. But my guess is that most players would disagree and want more varied weapons and armors.
It's not really a performance issue, as the performance hit is pretty minor. The performance hit of drawing a sheathe or holster on every fighting character is probably in the low single-digit percentages. The performance hit of having a separate animation to sheathe and unsheathe weapons basically consists of using a little bit of extra memory (both system memory and video memory), plus maybe a slight performance hit for switching vertex data an extra time or two per frame, but that's so small that it would be unmeasurable unless you put code into the game engine for the specific purpose of measuring it.
Because take every weapon in the game and add +1 for every.single.one to create a model/texture for the sheathed version.
Well, you "could" cheat and have every 1H sword look the same when sheathed for example and reduce the workload by a whole hell of a lot, but people would complain about that too.
Would it be unrealistic to create maybe 3-4 sheathed models/textures for each weapon type?
I don't think so.
But when so many weapons have different handles as well as shaped blades.... you see the problem.
Damned if you do - damned if you don't.
It works in the Zelda example because EVERY player of Zelda has the same sword...
^^^^^ this, basically.
Making characters visibly sheathe and unsheathe their weapons is very doable, but it's a lot of work. It's a question of priorities and where you want to put the work in developing a game. Would a game be better if it only had 2/3 as many armor and weapon options, but had an animation to properly sheathe every single weapon in the game? Would it be better if you had just as many armor and weapon options, but the options are just different textures on a few basic shapes, and in exchange, there are animations created to sheathe and unsheathe those few shapes?
That's a matter of opinion, and you could reasonably argue that yes, it would be better. But my guess is that most players would disagree and want more varied weapons and armors.
It's not really a performance issue, as the performance hit is pretty minor. The performance hit of drawing a sheathe or holster on every fighting character is probably in the low single-digit percentages. The performance hit of having a separate animation to sheathe and unsheathe weapons basically consists of using a little bit of extra memory (both system memory and video memory), plus maybe a slight performance hit for switching vertex data an extra time or two per frame, but that's so small that it would be unmeasurable unless you put code into the game engine for the specific purpose of measuring it.
It can be done without much work.
Aion, although they don't have weapon sheaths, completely removed the complex character animations that are used to "holster" weapons.
Instead of having a series of holstering character animations, they instead used a few squiggly flashes of light when transferring the weapon from your hands to your back. It worked.
They can simply have two models for each weapon: 1 weapon and 1 sheathed version of the weapon. When you click "holster weapon", it will simply show the holstered version of the weapon on your back.
More 3D modeling? Not really. After the sheath is made, it can be used to fit a variety of swords. Just copy the hilt from any sword and place it on top of the sheath. Just copy the back of any gun and place it on top of a holster.
So we are talking about games featuring many unbelievable and fantastical things that make absolutely no sense. Such as magic, elves, dragons, jumping/running like a boss, and being able to instantly materialize horses out of thin air. Then you want to complain about somethign that is aboviously used to show of art style of the weapons. Using a sheath is silly in the context of of a game because it hides the weapon models.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Originally posted by azzamasin So we are talking about games featuring many unbelievable and fantastical things that make absolutely no sense. Such as magic, elves, dragons, jumping/running like a boss, and being able to instantly materialize horses out of thin air. Then you want to complain about somethign that is aboviously used to show of art style of the weapons. Using a sheath is silly in the context of of a game because it hides the weapon models.
You are clearly missing the point.
However, you did bring up something interesting about the horses. You are right. They shouldn't just appear out of thin air. Instead, my character should whistle. After whistling, my horse should run to me from off the screen. That's much more realistic Seriously.
Because take every weapon in the game and add +1 for every.single.one to create a model/texture for the sheathed version.
Well, you "could" cheat and have every 1H sword look the same when sheathed for example and reduce the workload by a whole hell of a lot, but people would complain about that too.
Would it be unrealistic to create maybe 3-4 sheathed models/textures for each weapon type?
I don't think so.
But when so many weapons have different handles as well as shaped blades.... you see the problem.
Damned if you do - damned if you don't.
It works in the Zelda example because EVERY player of Zelda has the same sword...
^^^^^ this, basically.
Making characters visibly sheathe and unsheathe their weapons is very doable, but it's a lot of work. It's a question of priorities and where you want to put the work in developing a game. Would a game be better if it only had 2/3 as many armor and weapon options, but had an animation to properly sheathe every single weapon in the game? Would it be better if you had just as many armor and weapon options, but the options are just different textures on a few basic shapes, and in exchange, there are animations created to sheathe and unsheathe those few shapes?
That's a matter of opinion, and you could reasonably argue that yes, it would be better. But my guess is that most players would disagree and want more varied weapons and armors.
It's not really a performance issue, as the performance hit is pretty minor. The performance hit of drawing a sheathe or holster on every fighting character is probably in the low single-digit percentages. The performance hit of having a separate animation to sheathe and unsheathe weapons basically consists of using a little bit of extra memory (both system memory and video memory), plus maybe a slight performance hit for switching vertex data an extra time or two per frame, but that's so small that it would be unmeasurable unless you put code into the game engine for the specific purpose of measuring it.
It can be done without much work.
Aion, although they don't have weapon sheaths, completely removed the complex character animations that are used to "holster" weapons.
Instead of having a series of holstering character animations, they instead used a few squiggly flashes of light when transferring the weapon from your hands to your back. It worked.
They can simply have two models for each weapon: 1 weapon and 1 sheathed version of the weapon. When you click "holster weapon", it will simply show the holstered version of the weapon on your back.
More 3D modeling? Not really. After the sheath is made, it can be used to fit a variety of swords. Just copy the hilt from any sword and place it on top of the sheath. Just copy the back of any gun and place it on top of a holster.
Part of the design of the weapon is to show off what it looks like so that others see it, want it, work toward getting one. Now, your answer is "Then make the holster a toggle." Excellent answer! Well, more people rather their weapon show, so most would turn off the holster. From WOW's epic shoulderpads to its spectral mounts to the entire Play for Skins gameplay of GW2, players have consistently shown they want to show off what they have obtained or customized. It is one of the reasons that hoods (player created the face) are often toggleable in games.
As a developer, you have to weigh the amount of work with the amount of return. Floating the sowrd and shield fills nneds for both the developer and the player. Holstering it would add little to the game for either party except satisfy a niggling need by a very tiny fraction of the playerbase.
Now, if there is some larger outcry from the playerbase to get rid of floating weapons, then the return would start creeping toward justification of the resources involved.
This is where you guys come in. Most developers find it a lot more expensive and to be a lot more work than you do, so we need you and some of the other posters in this thread to apply as Technical Artists for some of these MMOs and show them how its done!
EDIT: "Using a sheath is silly in the context of of a game because it hides the weapon models." - Azz
I just noticed Azz said it a lot more succinctly than I.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
It is called lazy. When a team of 10 people can do what a 100+ fail to do it is called lazy. Go play an indie game like Mount and Blade. Weapons, shields and bows are slung and unslung. Swords are sheathed. Arrows are in quivers. A team of 10 people made and produced Mount and Blade and I agree with the OP, why can't big budget game makers pay attention to detail like this when a small indie company like TaleWorlds can?
Originally posted by Teala It is called lazy. When a team of 10 people can do what a 100+ fail to do it is called lazy. Go play an indie game like Mount and Blade. Weapons, shields and bows are slung and unslung. Swords are sheathed. Arrows are in quivers. A team of 10 people made and produced Mount and Blade and I agree with the OP, why can't big budget game makers pay attention to detail like this when a small indie company like TaleWorlds can?
Probably because of the production difference between Indie developers and larger developer studios. Indie games are all about gimmicks and special features so their attention is usually around polishing these things as much as possible. Where as high-budget game have money going where it's not needed (voice actors anybody?) and conserve the core of an already established model while focusing any additional development on a very select few areas, which often results in other areas to be lacking *cough* pretty much everything released in 2012 *cough*.
What it would take is to have a high-budget studio with the brain of indie devs, and I don't see that happening anytime soon (for financing reasons I suppose). A Valve-like MMO company would be a blessing however.
Who actually works in IT or in the game industry here? In any capacity?
Honestly... when somebody calls it lazy because a feature wasn't implemented it smacks of "I have no clue what I'm talking about, but damn this sounds good so I'm gonna say it."
Scope Creep.
Go read about it.... and understand.... you never do everything and people thinking you can are probably why so many games blew in 2012. I mean seriously even spot light posters fall into the category of just whining for the sake of it.
You cannot have everything. Sheathing while being cool (along with so many other things) is not a core game issue..... games do not fail because they didn't sheathe weapons... they fail because the core game isn't fun.
It depends on how many weapons the game has. Take an example like WoW where it seems like every single weapon is a different weapon model and can have different sizes trying to create a sheath (which is just part of the armor mesh, another issue altogether) that looks proper without the weapon protruding through it is a challenge at best (to a very large waste of artist resources depending on how many variations you would need not to mention draw calls if it isn't part of every single armor type). LoZ was used as an example, how many sword models are available?
Because take every weapon in the game and add +1 for every.single.one to create a model/texture for the sheathed version.
Well, you "could" cheat and have every 1H sword look the same when sheathed for example and reduce the workload by a whole hell of a lot, but people would complain about that too.
Would it be unrealistic to create maybe 3-4 sheathed models/textures for each weapon type?
I don't think so.
But when so many weapons have different handles as well as shaped blades.... you see the problem.
Damned if you do - damned if you don't.
It works in the Zelda example because EVERY player of Zelda has the same sword...
^^^^^ this, basically.
Making characters visibly sheathe and unsheathe their weapons is very doable, but it's a lot of work. It's a question of priorities and where you want to put the work in developing a game. Would a game be better if it only had 2/3 as many armor and weapon options, but had an animation to properly sheathe every single weapon in the game? Would it be better if you had just as many armor and weapon options, but the options are just different textures on a few basic shapes, and in exchange, there are animations created to sheathe and unsheathe those few shapes?
That's a matter of opinion, and you could reasonably argue that yes, it would be better. But my guess is that most players would disagree and want more varied weapons and armors.
It's not really a performance issue, as the performance hit is pretty minor. The performance hit of drawing a sheathe or holster on every fighting character is probably in the low single-digit percentages. The performance hit of having a separate animation to sheathe and unsheathe weapons basically consists of using a little bit of extra memory (both system memory and video memory), plus maybe a slight performance hit for switching vertex data an extra time or two per frame, but that's so small that it would be unmeasurable unless you put code into the game engine for the specific purpose of measuring it.
It can be done without much work.
Aion, although they don't have weapon sheaths, completely removed the complex character animations that are used to "holster" weapons.
Instead of having a series of holstering character animations, they instead used a few squiggly flashes of light when transferring the weapon from your hands to your back. It worked.
They can simply have two models for each weapon: 1 weapon and 1 sheathed version of the weapon. When you click "holster weapon", it will simply show the holstered version of the weapon on your back.
More 3D modeling? Not really. After the sheath is made, it can be used to fit a variety of swords. Just copy the hilt from any sword and place it on top of the sheath. Just copy the back of any gun and place it on top of a holster.
If the weapon magically warps from your hand to the sheathe, both a 3' longsword and a 6" dagger fit the same 2' sheathe, and most of the weapon isn't drawn when inside the sheathe, then yeah, it wouldn't be that hard to do. But do you think that's really what players are clamoring for? A large fraction of players would probably think that was worse than what games do now with a weapon slung from your side or draped across your back.
See the classic floating feet in midair on uneven terrain. Barely any game ever fixed that.
Be careful what you ask for. Fixing that (and its associated problem of feet stuck far into the ground) without harshly restricting the terrain is very, very hard to do. A company that makes that into a priority is likely to make all places that you can stand completely flat.
Originally posted by Teala It is called lazy. When a team of 10 people can do what a 100+ fail to do it is called lazy. Go play an indie game like Mount and Blade. Weapons, shields and bows are slung and unslung. Swords are sheathed. Arrows are in quivers. A team of 10 people made and produced Mount and Blade and I agree with the OP, why can't big budget game makers pay attention to detail like this when a small indie company like TaleWorlds can?
It's not laziness, it's different goals and different game designs. The point of the exposed weapon in most MMOs is to keep it visible because most MMOs are gear chasers. Mount and Blade isn't about big flaming swords and sparkly crossbows. Most other MMOs are.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Comments
Somehow I have a feeling if very few weapon models were available to people that there would be many, many more people complaining about lack of variation in weapons.
I mean, in many, many games they already complain about it.
I can honestly say that I have never once considered how weapons were holstered, OP managed to bring up something new that never occurred to me before.
But I'm not much of a graphics guy.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
2 times the time to make it happen isn't even close.
Quite frankly there's not been an engine built for it. In single player games or MMOs. There are games that use visual tricks to a better extent than others.
Overall I don't think anyone cares. In a world with dragons, demons, or thousands of rounds of ammo kept in someone's imagination it doesn't matter.
a yo ho ho
all said, next topic?
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
True...
But I'm the guy who finds a basic yet cool looking set of armor/weapons and such and just re-uses the skins over and over through systems like Transmog or Appearance tabs etc.
Hell it's 2013 and Appearance tabs and Armor dying isn't a MMO industry standard yet - which is absolutely ridiculous to me.
We were dying armor and clothes and hair/beards back in UO... 14 years ago.
Another false equivalency. Dyes =/= weapon sheathes for every weapon model including animations.
I don't know what you guys are talking about dev time..
It's rigging a mesh that has a standard size (The blade).
Multiply that by weapon types and you've a pretty easy job, dare I say it could add cosmetic appeal much like all those bunny ears and cloaks people pine after?
(This is what I would do with my current ability in 3d modeling not to say this is the BEST method)
Make the weapons
G-Sword > Large Mesh
L-Sword > Medium Mesh
So on and so forth, Now copy blade, increase geometry by a few degrees and ...bam.
Next, make withdraw animation, (Easily done with any 3d program including freebies), now take that animation, apply it to the models dds and bipety bopety bam! Once again you've defeated the "hard work", as for the clipping? Float it off the waist and not the hip , make the hip a hard point (if the engine allows) and you are done.
1 Sheathed weapon mesh, static.
2 Unsheathed weapon mesh, static.
3 Sheathed weapon mesh, Static.
I think most of you are thinking the ENTIRE weapon is sheathed and not the simple part. The killy part. The blade. I know there are weird blades out there, with big teeth etc, well whatever just mesh a bigger sheath so on.
It can be done, hell I just made about 50 weapons in M&B warband this weekend and it took me about 30 minutes, that includes sheath, as luckily most weapon models are standard size tri's etc...and thus sheath options are a breeze.
A professional should be able to do 6x the work as my amateur hour self.
Edit: All in all there should be almost no noticable change in performance, not with the current gen of tech (Hell even 5 years ago tech can handle this) it is one extra model, the texture? You can just make it black.
And since I've heard some silly stuff... Mabinogi has done this and it's a old mmo. Mmo's can easily do this, don't let the cop out "it's a bunch of work" be the excuse for laziness.
With that mindset cloaks, hair etc is the same thing, and in many cultures the sheath is just as powerful a weapon as the blade, and thus can be another stat set...so on.
It's just added value, we used to call this Quality of life in the mmo world, but most seem to just not care for those items, or pretend they don't.
Because no one has complained about it. There's no reason for devs to change something that successfully fullfills several roles (vanity, functionality, aesthetics) if no one has expressed an issue with it.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I'm not talking unique animations and sheathed appearances for every single weapon model in a game.
Maybe in pure fantasy land but yeah - that is ridiculous amount of extra work for very little benefit.
I'd be happier to just use the same "putting your weapon away" animation the games already use, and just throwing a basic (again maybe 3-4 per weapon type based on size?) sheath / cover on the model as it sits floating off your hip / back.
Just two lines of code!
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Dude not even that, it's like one line with a case.
Kid you not.
^^^^^ this, basically.
Making characters visibly sheathe and unsheathe their weapons is very doable, but it's a lot of work. It's a question of priorities and where you want to put the work in developing a game. Would a game be better if it only had 2/3 as many armor and weapon options, but had an animation to properly sheathe every single weapon in the game? Would it be better if you had just as many armor and weapon options, but the options are just different textures on a few basic shapes, and in exchange, there are animations created to sheathe and unsheathe those few shapes?
That's a matter of opinion, and you could reasonably argue that yes, it would be better. But my guess is that most players would disagree and want more varied weapons and armors.
It's not really a performance issue, as the performance hit is pretty minor. The performance hit of drawing a sheathe or holster on every fighting character is probably in the low single-digit percentages. The performance hit of having a separate animation to sheathe and unsheathe weapons basically consists of using a little bit of extra memory (both system memory and video memory), plus maybe a slight performance hit for switching vertex data an extra time or two per frame, but that's so small that it would be unmeasurable unless you put code into the game engine for the specific purpose of measuring it.
It can be done without much work.
Aion, although they don't have weapon sheaths, completely removed the complex character animations that are used to "holster" weapons.
Instead of having a series of holstering character animations, they instead used a few squiggly flashes of light when transferring the weapon from your hands to your back. It worked.
They can simply have two models for each weapon: 1 weapon and 1 sheathed version of the weapon. When you click "holster weapon", it will simply show the holstered version of the weapon on your back.
More 3D modeling? Not really. After the sheath is made, it can be used to fit a variety of swords. Just copy the hilt from any sword and place it on top of the sheath. Just copy the back of any gun and place it on top of a holster.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
You are clearly missing the point.
However, you did bring up something interesting about the horses. You are right. They shouldn't just appear out of thin air. Instead, my character should whistle. After whistling, my horse should run to me from off the screen. That's much more realistic
Seriously.
Part of the design of the weapon is to show off what it looks like so that others see it, want it, work toward getting one. Now, your answer is "Then make the holster a toggle." Excellent answer! Well, more people rather their weapon show, so most would turn off the holster. From WOW's epic shoulderpads to its spectral mounts to the entire Play for Skins gameplay of GW2, players have consistently shown they want to show off what they have obtained or customized. It is one of the reasons that hoods (player created the face) are often toggleable in games.
As a developer, you have to weigh the amount of work with the amount of return. Floating the sowrd and shield fills nneds for both the developer and the player. Holstering it would add little to the game for either party except satisfy a niggling need by a very tiny fraction of the playerbase.
Now, if there is some larger outcry from the playerbase to get rid of floating weapons, then the return would start creeping toward justification of the resources involved.
This is where you guys come in. Most developers find it a lot more expensive and to be a lot more work than you do, so we need you and some of the other posters in this thread to apply as Technical Artists for some of these MMOs and show them how its done!
EDIT: "Using a sheath is silly in the context of of a game because it hides the weapon models." - Azz
I just noticed Azz said it a lot more succinctly than I.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Probably because of the production difference between Indie developers and larger developer studios. Indie games are all about gimmicks and special features so their attention is usually around polishing these things as much as possible. Where as high-budget game have money going where it's not needed (voice actors anybody?) and conserve the core of an already established model while focusing any additional development on a very select few areas, which often results in other areas to be lacking *cough* pretty much everything released in 2012 *cough*.
What it would take is to have a high-budget studio with the brain of indie devs, and I don't see that happening anytime soon (for financing reasons I suppose). A Valve-like MMO company would be a blessing however.
Who actually works in IT or in the game industry here? In any capacity?
Honestly... when somebody calls it lazy because a feature wasn't implemented it smacks of "I have no clue what I'm talking about, but damn this sounds good so I'm gonna say it."
Scope Creep.
Go read about it.... and understand.... you never do everything and people thinking you can are probably why so many games blew in 2012. I mean seriously even spot light posters fall into the category of just whining for the sake of it.
You cannot have everything. Sheathing while being cool (along with so many other things) is not a core game issue..... games do not fail because they didn't sheathe weapons... they fail because the core game isn't fun.
Joshua Halls
Co Owner-Lead Programmer The Repopulation
If the weapon magically warps from your hand to the sheathe, both a 3' longsword and a 6" dagger fit the same 2' sheathe, and most of the weapon isn't drawn when inside the sheathe, then yeah, it wouldn't be that hard to do. But do you think that's really what players are clamoring for? A large fraction of players would probably think that was worse than what games do now with a weapon slung from your side or draped across your back.
Be careful what you ask for. Fixing that (and its associated problem of feet stuck far into the ground) without harshly restricting the terrain is very, very hard to do. A company that makes that into a priority is likely to make all places that you can stand completely flat.
It's not laziness, it's different goals and different game designs. The point of the exposed weapon in most MMOs is to keep it visible because most MMOs are gear chasers. Mount and Blade isn't about big flaming swords and sparkly crossbows. Most other MMOs are.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre