Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Fuzzy Avatars Solved! Please re-upload your avatar if it was fuzzy!

[Poll] Which pvp ruleset prevents more the ganks?

2

Comments

  • RamanadjinnRamanadjinn Huntsville, ALPosts: 1,365Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by laokoko

     

    That not the point.  You don't loss "anything" in wow.  There is a difference between not lossing anything or lossing somethings which could take hours to recover. 

     

    I'm not missing your point.  To be clear, I and most sane individuals would have to agree there is a difference in loss between games like WOW and Darkfall.  I was only pointing out that difference should be noted for what it is.  No more or less.  

    Specifically when one is discussing the topic of "gank motivation" as we are here, one has to consider the full spectrum of game design and not simply compare microsystems within the different games as if there is a perfect mapping between the two systems.  Which i believe was at the heart of your original point.  I only expanded on that thought.

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,995Member Uncommon

    None of the above.

    Ganking is only prevented if there is some sort of game mechanic, either developer or player created to discourage ganking in the first place.

    EVE puts many controls into certain game areas to reduce (not totally eliminate) ganking in those areas and has unrestricted PVP in other zones which is pretty much open season on anyone not Blue to you.

    As others have mentioned, what exactly is ganking?  Attacking other players who have no chance at fighting back?  In a title like WOW that's sort of considered bad form, but in EVE its the proper tactic to always take, if you're in a fair fight you've done something wrong.

    The difference between the two is in the consequences.  When your ship or gear is on the line (like EVE or DF), winning at all cost is all that really matters, the principals of fair play don't really apply. (More like real life warfare)

    When there's little on the line such as in WOW or Aion, then people tend to treat PVP more like a sport and want the rules fair and balanced for everyone.

    Neither approach is better than the other, just  a matter of what people prefer. (and the fair and balanced approach seems to e what a majority of the player base prefers)

    Here's the thing some folks forget, people rarely enjoy being "prey" and a certain segment of the player base will refuse to particpate if that's all they ever end up being.  Just isn't fun for them.

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • MaephistoMaephisto somewhere, DCPosts: 632Member
    Originally posted by Kyleran

    None of the above.

    Ganking is only prevented if there is some sort of game mechanic, either developer or player created to discourage ganking in the first place.

    EVE puts many controls into certain game areas to reduce (not totally eliminate) ganking in those areas and has unrestricted PVP in other zones which is pretty much open season on anyone not Blue to you.

    As others have mentioned, what exactly is ganking?  Attacking other players who have no chance at fighting back?  In a title like WOW that's sort of considered bad form, but in EVE its the proper tactic to always take, if you're in a fair fight you've done something wrong.

    The difference between the two is in the consequences.  When your ship or gear is on the line (like EVE or DF), winning at all cost is all that really matters, the principals of fair play don't really apply. (More like real life warfare)

    When there's little on the line such as in WOW or Aion, then people tend to treat PVP more like a sport and want the rules fair and balanced for everyone.

    Neither approach is better than the other, just  a matter of what people prefer. (and the fair and balanced approach seems to e what a majority of the player base prefers)

    Here's the thing some folks forget, people rarely enjoy being "prey" and a certain segment of the player base will refuse to particpate if that's all they ever end up being.  Just isn't fun for them.

     

    I agree with what you wrote entirely. 

    I wish I knew where the disconnect happened.  In games like WoW, servers are clearly labeled "PvP,"  yet they have become increasingly unpopular.  It is almost as if people are wanting less and less PvP, and yet still want to have PvP servers.  PvE servers are maintained while PvP servers are slowly whittling away.

    Why is it in games like WoW, OWPvP it is considered poor form to take someone out who wasnt paying attention.  Part of the fun for me was keeping my head on a swivel.  Controlling how many mobs I attack at one time in order to keep health high and CD's up.  What really baffles me is that you run zero risk of losing anything (except time and a little money). 

    Across all games, the idea of a "consensual/fair fight" boggles my mind.  It shouldnt even be a factor.  If this is a factor, then why have PvP servers to begin with?

    image

  • laokokolaokoko TaipeiPosts: 2,003Member
    Originally posted by Ramanadjinn
    Originally posted by laokoko

     

    That not the point.  You don't loss "anything" in wow.  There is a difference between not lossing anything or lossing somethings which could take hours to recover. 

     

    I'm not missing your point.  To be clear, I and most sane individuals would have to agree there is a difference in loss between games like WOW and Darkfall.  I was only pointing out that difference should be noted for what it is.  No more or less.  

    Specifically when one is discussing the topic of "gank motivation" as we are here, one has to consider the full spectrum of game design and not simply compare microsystems within the different games as if there is a perfect mapping between the two systems.  Which i believe was at the heart of your original point.  I only expanded on that thought.

    Is that even the topic of conversation here?

    The only thing I said is I dont' care about getting ganked in wow because you don't loss anything.  I care about getting ganked in darkfall.  That is the only thing I said.   

    Maybe you get mislead when I say you loss "everything".  I loss everything in inventory and everything I'm wearing ok? 

    I played wow and I played darkfall.  In wow I dont' care about getting ganked.  In darkfall I care.  That is all.

  • BanaghranBanaghran HuisoPosts: 869Member
    Originally posted by Starpower
    Originally posted by Alberel

    I think some people are mis-interpreting the OP here.

    Some older MMOs had FFA PvP with a bounty system that allowed the community to police itself and punish 'murderers' in its own way (usually by making them a target who can be killed without consequence and encouraging the community to hunt them down by offering a reward). In my opinion those systems are the best for preventing ganks as it reduces the likelihood of players ganking for the sake of it and instead only doing it when they have a reason to. This kind of system works best in sandbox MMOs though to be fair...

    It also creates a soft separation between those who want to PvP and those who don't. Everyone is permanently flagged but the gankers are more likely to go after their own kind due to the way the system works.

    It all balances out nicely in the end and allows the PvPers a FFA playground and the others the thrill of playing in that environment without the frustration of battles that are decided before their opponent even attacks.

    Except it's easily circumvented by having a character that is strictly for PvP you log on to cause havoc with and log out when you are done and other characters you play differently with. Your premise only works if you have 1 character pr account but even then, people are just going to buy a second account

    A pvp character may be blocked from advancing in pve (a buffer buffs him and is flagged, too) outside special stuff, moreover the game may require work to work off your sins, even the number of pked people, one by one :)

    IF a player spends a month getting the character up, and then has to spend time working off every kill, unless he just wants to constantly loose stuff (exp mostly, that is why this works best in sandboxes and grind games), i have no problem with him ganking.

    The effort vs reward ratio (if set up properly) evens things out, some dedicated people will still pk for whatever reason, roleplay, anarchistic tendencies. What it filters off is what we want filtered off, impatient half-wits oneshotting lowbies quipping "gf, n00b" :)

    Which is the kind of people wow pvp servers are overfilled with, fixed factions just mean free targets in that environment.

    Flame on!

    :)

  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,205Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by laokoko
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by XAPGames
    Originally posted by Robokapp

    how much pvp do you see in a wow pve realm ,where this consent system is in place ? one fight per month ? two fights per month ?

     

    Plenty, but it goes on in battlegrounds and arenas.

     

    Sorry, but I can't condone the rampant slaughter of PVE'ers just because it's fun for the people with the upper hand.

     

    the counter argument looks like this:

     

    I can't condone the protection of PvE'rs by invisible artificial mechanics.

     

    while i'm not a ganker, nor a pvp'er, BG's and arenas are by themselves insufficient unless a game can incorporate them into its world in a relevant way. Back to Wintergrasp and Told Barad, that's good. It's consensual, it's very much like a BG, and its relevant to the world. If every BG had such functions - aka not just another BG where all that's at stake is 250 honor points - then I'd agree with you fully.

     

    bg's and arenas are miningames. they are holding little to no relevance to the game world.

    Maybe most of us realize MMORPG is just a video game.  Not everyone have the imagination that the so called whatever MMORPG is a real world.

    I said "game world" not "real world".

    image

  • laokokolaokoko TaipeiPosts: 2,003Member
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by laokoko
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by XAPGames
    Originally posted by Robokapp

    how much pvp do you see in a wow pve realm ,where this consent system is in place ? one fight per month ? two fights per month ?

     

    Plenty, but it goes on in battlegrounds and arenas.

     

    Sorry, but I can't condone the rampant slaughter of PVE'ers just because it's fun for the people with the upper hand.

     

    the counter argument looks like this:

     

    I can't condone the protection of PvE'rs by invisible artificial mechanics.

     

    while i'm not a ganker, nor a pvp'er, BG's and arenas are by themselves insufficient unless a game can incorporate them into its world in a relevant way. Back to Wintergrasp and Told Barad, that's good. It's consensual, it's very much like a BG, and its relevant to the world. If every BG had such functions - aka not just another BG where all that's at stake is 250 honor points - then I'd agree with you fully.

     

    bg's and arenas are miningames. they are holding little to no relevance to the game world.

    Maybe most of us realize MMORPG is just a video game.  Not everyone have the imagination that the so called whatever MMORPG is a real world.

    I said "game world" not "real world".

    Ya I mean why is it so important that the fighting have to be done in this so called virtual game world.  Most of us realize this world isn't real and is just a game.  I mean all this I don't want to play a game, I want a virtual world!

    Fighting can't be done in battle ground, it break immersion!  That makes the game world unreal... whatever.

  • RimmersmanRimmersman MonacoPosts: 885Member
    Originally posted by bcbully
    From what I've seen, option two. Harsh penaties, and penalties carried out by players, like bounty hunters and authorities. Give the players the tools, and they will police pk'n. No need for safe zones or guards for that matter.

    This.

    We only need to look at Age Of Wushu for an example.

    image
  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Like someone already mentioned, ensuring that all PvP is consensual would be a good first step. Then you would only have to tackle the possible numbers and power differences.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • IIIcurrierIIIcurrier Kalispell, MTPosts: 88Member

    Asheron's Call has a cool system, there is a full on PK server, and non-pk servers where you can flag yourself for combat.

     

    The main thing that encouraged players to fight with honor was the fact that your reputation means quite a bit, being a douche will not get you far at all.

     

    Not to mention that in AC if you had skill, skill topped all, a level 50 mage could beat a level 150 mage if you ducked and weaved and played smart.

     

     

  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,205Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by laokoko
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by laokoko
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by XAPGames
    Originally posted by Robokapp

    how much pvp do you see in a wow pve realm ,where this consent system is in place ? one fight per month ? two fights per month ?

     

    Plenty, but it goes on in battlegrounds and arenas.

     

    Sorry, but I can't condone the rampant slaughter of PVE'ers just because it's fun for the people with the upper hand.

     

    the counter argument looks like this:

     

    I can't condone the protection of PvE'rs by invisible artificial mechanics.

     

    while i'm not a ganker, nor a pvp'er, BG's and arenas are by themselves insufficient unless a game can incorporate them into its world in a relevant way. Back to Wintergrasp and Told Barad, that's good. It's consensual, it's very much like a BG, and its relevant to the world. If every BG had such functions - aka not just another BG where all that's at stake is 250 honor points - then I'd agree with you fully.

     

    bg's and arenas are miningames. they are holding little to no relevance to the game world.

    Maybe most of us realize MMORPG is just a video game.  Not everyone have the imagination that the so called whatever MMORPG is a real world.

    I said "game world" not "real world".

    Ya I mean why is it so important that the fighting have to be done in this so called virtual game world.  Most of us realize this world isn't real and is just a game.  I mean all this I don't want to play a game, I want a virtual world!

    Fighting can't be done in battle ground, it break immersion!  That makes the game world unreal... whatever.

    I didn't say it breaks immersion, I said it has no influence on the game world.

    quite opposite from what you claim I said.

     

    it CAn be done in a BG, it's jsut that it'll be a miningame not a game-relevant feature.

     

    If we're to follow your train of thought, let's take it further. removing all pvp entirely will permanently solve the ganking problem.

     

    let's not put it in a BG, let's not put it in at all. problem solved.

    image

  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,918Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Robokapp
     

    the counter argument looks like this:

     

    I can't condone the protection of PvE'rs by invisible artificial mechanics.

     

    Yep, I understand.

     

    What I run up against in this sort of discussion is I don't understand why developers allow PK and then try to create mechanics trying to prevent ganking.

     

    I end up in this loop:

     

    If ganking is allowed, why punish it?

    If ganking is punished, why allow it?

     

    It just doesn't make sense to me.

     


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,205Member Uncommon

    it does make sense.

     

    queue 5 pag socio-phylosophical debate in which I argue fear is what both makes it feel real and keeps us 'feling' the game in a masochistic way.

     

    the ability to gank simply is needed to better emulate a virtual world.

     

    I mean you can kill in real life, but there's harsh consequences for it, right ? as such, that dark alley in that bad neighborhood at the wrong time wearing the wrong footbal team's shirt... is more than just another place to walk thru. it becomes  a high risk 'better get thru here quickly' area that draws an emotional response.

     

    games, movies, art, music appeal to customers by provoking an emotional response.

     

    Fear of death ... does promote a response. Problem is too much of it paralyzes the game. aka nobody will walk thru that alley. So the alley itself becomes meaningless to the player.

     

    also enforcing punishments to PKing further enforces the importance of life and death. in a game like counterstrike where you respawn, pick a gun, resume shooting...a single death has little meaning. in an MMO, PKing, PK safe zones, PK punishments all make big waves enforcing the concept that "ITS A BIG DEAL TO GET KILLED".

     

    it's just...death publicity.

     

    Remember that guy who parachute jumped from stratosphere? how many people watched it live just to see a guy die in a fancy way ? Nobody was excited about the laning - perhaps other than his family. and sure as hell nobody cared about his records. we just wanted to see someone do something that might end up in a big splash.

     

    when you jump from a .5 to a .4 in EVE...the stars look the same. your ship looks the same. difference is now your odds of being killed multiplied 1000fold. It does nothing to what you see, only to what you PERCEIVE. A guy warping to gate in a capsule...was he a victim? is he a scout? is he a target ? meanwhile one gate over in .5 a guy warping in a capsule...probably going to pick up a new ship. good for him. moving on...

     

    anyone who spent too long in nullsec and goes to empire and sees 50 neutrals in local instantly has a panic moment thinking 'enemy gang. i jumped right into them. I'm so dead. dont arp too station. to sun? no, to a celesial. OH WAIT IM IN 0.7"

    image

  • EcocesEcoces Chicago, ILPosts: 879Member Uncommon
    the DAOC way, where unless you RVR you don't interact with the enemy at all. no ganking what so ever. I have never EVER been ganked in DAOC as well as GW2 which has a very similar system.
  • zymurgeistzymurgeist Pittsville, VAPosts: 5,211Member Uncommon
    Truthfully it's the pure open PvP no excuses ruleset. Where if you get ganked you just didn't bring enough people to watch your back. Every other system is exploitable.

    "Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause" ~Victor Hugo

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member
    Why do people say that the only reason people do not kill each other in real life because of the consequences? There were nearly zero consequences for thirty thousand years and most of those people did not kill the first they saw when they went exploring the world.

    Owpvp or ffa pvp does not add realism, it just adds some pvp.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,205Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Why do people say that the only reason people do not kill each other in real life because of the consequences? There were nearly zero consequences for thirty thousand years and most of those people did not kill the first they saw when they went exploring the world.

    Owpvp or ffa pvp does not add realism, it just adds some pvp.

    there might have been some mentality changes between the year 27,987 BC and present.

    image

  • znaiikaznaiika denver, PAPosts: 203Member
    Originally posted by XAPGames

    No vote.

     

    Best way to prevent ganks?  Consensual PVP.  If you're looking for a fight, then flag.  If you're really looking for a fight, then flag and start killing quest givers.

     

    edit: splling...damn old crap-top with unreliable keys.

    This is a best way to controll ganking.

     

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,501Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by znaiika
    Originally posted by XAPGames

    No vote.

     

    Best way to prevent ganks?  Consensual PVP.  If you're looking for a fight, then flag.  If you're really looking for a fight, then flag and start killing quest givers.

     

    edit: splling...damn old crap-top with unreliable keys.

    This is a best way to controll ganking.

    That's the definition of a WoW PvE server. 

     

    It's also the best way to make sure world PvP almost never happens.

     

    Edit: Which is fine with me. But I think there are better ways to manage world PvP if that is a focus.

  • MaephistoMaephisto somewhere, DCPosts: 632Member

    Ganking is not something that you control.  I also dont believe you can talk about OWPvP and also talk about "consensual fighting."  The two dont mix.

    For those who are so worried about getting ganked, why would you roll on a pvp server to begin with? 

     

    image

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,666Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by znaiika
    Originally posted by XAPGames

    No vote.

    Best way to prevent ganks?  Consensual PVP.  If you're looking for a fight, then flag.  If you're really looking for a fight, then flag and start killing quest givers.

    edit: splling...damn old crap-top with unreliable keys.

    This is a best way to controll ganking.

    That's the definition of a WoW PvE server. 

    It's also the best way to make sure world PvP almost never happens.

    Edit: Which is fine with me. But I think there are better ways to manage world PvP if that is a focus.

    It also only works in a MMO where the PVP is irrelevant. The more that world PVP affects advancement, resource or territory control the more such a systems breaks or completely defeats the other game mechanics.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,783Member Uncommon

    Neither.  Disabling pvp entirely will prevent the most ganks.

    If you're relying on punishment for ganking, then it depends very heavily on what the punishment is.  A 10% chance of being permabanned will be a stronger deterrent than being fined 1 copper.

  • ObiClownobiObiClownobi CoruscantPosts: 186Member
    Originally posted by laokoko
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by laokoko
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by XAPGames
    Originally posted by Robokapp

    how much pvp do you see in a wow pve realm ,where this consent system is in place ? one fight per month ? two fights per month ?

     

    Plenty, but it goes on in battlegrounds and arenas.

     

    Sorry, but I can't condone the rampant slaughter of PVE'ers just because it's fun for the people with the upper hand.

     

    the counter argument looks like this:

     

    I can't condone the protection of PvE'rs by invisible artificial mechanics.

     

    while i'm not a ganker, nor a pvp'er, BG's and arenas are by themselves insufficient unless a game can incorporate them into its world in a relevant way. Back to Wintergrasp and Told Barad, that's good. It's consensual, it's very much like a BG, and its relevant to the world. If every BG had such functions - aka not just another BG where all that's at stake is 250 honor points - then I'd agree with you fully.

     

    bg's and arenas are miningames. they are holding little to no relevance to the game world.

    Maybe most of us realize MMORPG is just a video game.  Not everyone have the imagination that the so called whatever MMORPG is a real world.

    I said "game world" not "real world".

    Ya I mean why is it so important that the fighting have to be done in this so called virtual game world.  Most of us realize this world isn't real and is just a game.  I mean all this I don't want to play a game, I want a virtual world!

    Fighting can't be done in battle ground, it break immersion!  That makes the game world unreal... whatever.

    Then why don't you do away with the whole world thing and play a MOBA'S, you obviously want to strip it down to the fight bit anyway.

    image
    "It's a sandbox, if you are not willing to create a castle then all you have is sand" - jtcgs

  • laokokolaokoko TaipeiPosts: 2,003Member

    I vote for FFA PVP with significant punishment have less ganking. 

    But seriously, what FFA PVP game have significant punishment for ganking?  Why allow people to do FFA PVP but punish them?  That dont' make sense.

    But FFA PVP obviously have more ganking.  In faction pvp, you are usually more protected because most people around you are people with the same faction.

  • laokokolaokoko TaipeiPosts: 2,003Member
    Originally posted by Maephisto

    Ganking is not something that you control.  I also dont believe you can talk about OWPvP and also talk about "consensual fighting."  The two dont mix.

    For those who are so worried about getting ganked, why would you roll on a pvp server to begin with? 

     

    It is really the opposite way around.  People are complaining about no OWPVP game to play.

    I'm sure those carebear are already rolling on pve server or dont' bother with OWPVP game.

2
Sign In or Register to comment.