A good drop every hour..., this old song again, yes, i would like a item that has correct mainstat for item type, vit, resall and a random dps affix, yes, something that is now traded for 30-100k every now and then, even an hour.
Call me a idealist
Flame on!
I believe, on these forums, that kind of system is refered to as Easy Mode.
Hmm, so gaining 0.5% of a level every hour while gaining loot and wealth is grind, but a item that has essentially no value other than being a "nice drop" is easy mode.
Originally posted by lizardbones Your response was that I made half @ssed suggestions. While that is technically a response, it's really short on details.
Private loot piles don't increase or decrease the amount of loot. The developer decides how much loot drops. If Blizzard wanted less loot to drop in D3, then less loot would drop in D3. They aren't limited by having private loot piles. Because, you know, they determine everything that happens.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but kill stealing is when a player A needs mob X and player B tags or kills mob X before player A can tag or kill them, yes? So if player A can hit mob X after player B has hit mob X, and both players get credit for the kill, then that makes kill stealing pretty impossible, yes? If you scale the damage done to the mob based on the player level, rather than the mob level, then it becomes even harder for player B to kill a mob before player A has a change to hit it...player B can no longer one shot mobs that player A needs.
Loot stealing is when player A kills mob X, and some loot drops, then player B comes along and takes the loot. Well, if the loot pile belongs to player A, and player B can't see or touch it, then player B stealing player A's loot is not impossible, yes?
These are solutions that have been implemented in other games already. They address the issues of kill stealing and loot stealing. I didn't suggest them because I made them up myself, I suggested them because developers have already done these things, and they worked as intended.
Fair enough for the response.
As for private loot piles, private loot in d3 mean full loot for everyone, in this sense a group of 4 gets 4x the amount of items that an group of 1. Thus private loot in this case increases the amount of loot. Which is in line of my argument that it is never that easy as "just make it impossible", they did, but the execution contributed to another problem.
The rest is academic, "if" blizz wanted this and that, if blizz wanted to create a good game, they would not have released d3 so unfinished
I have no problem with your suggestions per se, we could maybe talk about how you want to (or respectively, how it is if the system works somewhere) divide loot or how to avoid the mischief of randomly increasing the level of mobs for noobs, or some timeout on loot piles (i do enjoy picking up stuff after bots after reporting them, much better than just reporting them )
Private loot IS part of the problem in D3, much more items are introduced into the game, thus the items have to be more useless, more random, so that not everyone is decked out right away in the best items.
And pardon me if i take offense in being told that a full stash of yellows that can be only vendored has to do with playing a Diablo game...
Flame on!
So? Dropping 100 yellows and then you get a rare legendary (or 100M worth yellow) is the same as getting a rare raid drop after playing for 50 hours.
You get a good item every 50 hours of play.
But you dont. The legendary is worth <1m in most cases and my definition of good is much broader than "100m item".
Even in raids you see good drops very often, they are just not for your class, or you have stronger ones.
You maybe get a item every 50 hours you might want to wear, if you would not have already something better bought from the ah, or you would be a different class.
Which is extremely low.
Flame on!
So in any case, you get a good upgrade every 50 hours or so (depending on your gear level, of course .. it is faster when you have little stuff) ... whether it is a 100M item that you can cash in to get something good on the AH, or a good item drop (which i have done both).
I thought people are for slower progression. YOu really want a good drop every hour? Think about the horrible gear inflation if that is teh case.
A good upgrade does not mean selling for 100m (which is at best 2 medium upgrades past mp3 on farm), as you point out, so you can potentially spend months without good drops, 50 hours are 2weeks - 1 month of playtime, and people do.
A good drop every hour..., this old song again, yes, i would like a item that has correct mainstat for item type, vit, resall and a random dps affix, yes, something that is now traded for 30-100k every now and then, even an hour.
Call me a idealist
Flame on!
So whether there are a boat loads of useless yellow is pretty much irrelevant to this discussion. Whether they are yellow, or white .. makes zero difference. The only thing that matters is how often you get something "useful".
And i disagree with your assessment. I am farming MP5 now .. and my next upgrade (for roughly 10-20k dps increase) is in the 100M range. So 100M ... is pretty good at least for my toon. And last time i check, my DPS is roughly at the less than 5% quantile (roughly top 5000 in US, less than top 2000 wiz) ... so i will guess many players are getting upgrade FASTER than me.
At the end of the day, it is really about the speed of upgrade. In a WOW raid scenario, it is easily 1-2 weeks before a single upgrade .. i don't see D3 as much slower.
I just forget, the discussion is about loot stealing .. in that aspect ... D3 and LFR loot system obviously eliminated the problem.
Now we can discuss the speed of loot drop, but that is obivously an independent issue. Blizz can easily double of halve the loot drop and still maintain the private loot.
Personally, i like private loot. No need to fight over loot .. and eliminate one interaction problem.
Originally posted by lizardbones Your response was that I made half @ssed suggestions. While that is technically a response, it's really short on details. Private loot piles don't increase or decrease the amount of loot. The developer decides how much loot drops. If Blizzard wanted less loot to drop in D3, then less loot would drop in D3. They aren't limited by having private loot piles. Because, you know, they determine everything that happens. Correct me if I'm wrong, but kill stealing is when a player A needs mob X and player B tags or kills mob X before player A can tag or kill them, yes? So if player A can hit mob X after player B has hit mob X, and both players get credit for the kill, then that makes kill stealing pretty impossible, yes? If you scale the damage done to the mob based on the player level, rather than the mob level, then it becomes even harder for player B to kill a mob before player A has a change to hit it...player B can no longer one shot mobs that player A needs. Loot stealing is when player A kills mob X, and some loot drops, then player B comes along and takes the loot. Well, if the loot pile belongs to player A, and player B can't see or touch it, then player B stealing player A's loot is not impossible, yes? These are solutions that have been implemented in other games already. They address the issues of kill stealing and loot stealing. I didn't suggest them because I made them up myself, I suggested them because developers have already done these things, and they worked as intended.
Fair enough for the response.
As for private loot piles, private loot in d3 mean full loot for everyone, in this sense a group of 4 gets 4x the amount of items that an group of 1. Thus private loot in this case increases the amount of loot. Which is in line of my argument that it is never that easy as "just make it impossible", they did, but the execution contributed to another problem.
The rest is academic, "if" blizz wanted this and that, if blizz wanted to create a good game, they would not have released d3 so unfinished
I have no problem with your suggestions per se, we could maybe talk about how you want to (or respectively, how it is if the system works somewhere) divide loot or how to avoid the mischief of randomly increasing the level of mobs for noobs, or some timeout on loot piles (i do enjoy picking up stuff after bots after reporting them, much better than just reporting them :) )
Flame on!
Each player gets a chance at a good piece of gear when they drop the big mob. Most of the gear, while of "yellow" quality, is still garbage. The players didn't get a loot drop, they got a pre-vendor drop that they aren't expected to keep. The players still have to run and re-run a particular boss or section of the game until they get a piece of gear that they want to keep. Private loot piles don't make a substantial change in game play between D2 and D3. To be honest, this is the first I've heard anyone complain about private loot or too many drops in D3. Like GW2, I sit with people who play the game and won't shut up about it. This has never come up before.
But keep in mind, I answered two very specific questions with two very specific answers. Anything outside those very specific questions wasn't considered because it wasn't part of the questions.
** edit **
Happy New Year Everyone!
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Each player gets a chance at a good piece of gear when they drop the big mob. Most of the gear, while of "yellow" quality, is still garbage. The players didn't get a loot drop, they got a pre-vendor drop that they aren't expected to keep. The players still have to run and re-run a particular boss or section of the game until they get a piece of gear that they want to keep. Private loot piles don't make a substantial change in game play between D2 and D3. To be honest, this is the first I've heard anyone complain about private loot or too many drops in D3. Like GW2, I sit with people who play the game and won't shut up about it. This has never come up before.
But keep in mind, I answered two very specific questions with two very specific answers. Anything outside those very specific questions wasn't considered because it wasn't part of the questions.
** edit **
Happy New Year Everyone!
That you state how it is does not make it ok, does it?
You are not keeping a very close look on the game, forums and broader community if you have never heard and experienced "there are too many useless drops". And, ofcourse i will ask, which particular boss i have to run to get lacunis with crit?
Noone claimed it is a substantial change in gameplay, i just claimed it contributes to the problem.
What it changes (together with other mechanics) is the psychological effect of the rewards, and while im coming to a conclusion that some people are too dense to be desensitivized , it is the fallout.
One might, in a tongue-in-cheek way, even suggest that if players would get more often a good drop, they would even stomach fighting over it at this point.
So whether there are a boat loads of useless yellow is pretty much irrelevant to this discussion. Whether they are yellow, or white .. makes zero difference. The only thing that matters is how often you get something "useful".
And i disagree with your assessment. I am farming MP5 now .. and my next upgrade (for roughly 10-20k dps increase) is in the 100M range. So 100M ... is pretty good at least for my toon. And last time i check, my DPS is roughly at the less than 5% quantile (roughly top 5000 in US, less than top 2000 wiz) ... so i will guess many players are getting upgrade FASTER than me.
At the end of the day, it is really about the speed of upgrade. In a WOW raid scenario, it is easily 1-2 weeks before a single upgrade .. i don't see D3 as much slower.
It is relevant, because people are not machines, you may be one, what do i know, but people in general are not, and they are even less logical thinking than anyone assumes.
You and the devs cannot expect to just say "yellow is the new white, deal with it".
We judge and feel rewards based on our previous rewards and sometimes even arbitrary factors.
To illustrate, you (in a broader sense, meaning "people") will drive across the town for 100 bucks off on a 500 buck dvd player, you will not if it is on a 10k item, yet it is the same 100 bucks.
Similarly, and more to the point, if you drink cheap coke every day, real coke will be a minor improvement in taste (if you like coke, that is), but if you drink water...
In a wow raid scenario you SEE good items drop, it gives people hope and a sense they have accomplished something, which does not come so easy from "yellow gold piles".
this qould be better phrased as not all mmos are worlds. crafting a real world takes a bit of talent...jusst hobbline a variety of boxed sized environemnts together eh not so much. I'd go as far as to argue in some ways that battle lobby games are more mmos these days then say swtor simply because games like swtor set out specifically to eliminate grouping and socalization under the guies it would provide better gameplay value which in the end it didn't.
Originally posted by lizardbones Each player gets a chance at a good piece of gear when they drop the big mob. Most of the gear, while of "yellow" quality, is still garbage. The players didn't get a loot drop, they got a pre-vendor drop that they aren't expected to keep. The players still have to run and re-run a particular boss or section of the game until they get a piece of gear that they want to keep. Private loot piles don't make a substantial change in game play between D2 and D3. To be honest, this is the first I've heard anyone complain about private loot or too many drops in D3. Like GW2, I sit with people who play the game and won't shut up about it. This has never come up before. But keep in mind, I answered two very specific questions with two very specific answers. Anything outside those very specific questions wasn't considered because it wasn't part of the questions. ** edit ** Happy New Year Everyone!
That you state how it is does not make it ok, does it?
You are not keeping a very close look on the game, forums and broader community if you have never heard and experienced "there are too many useless drops". And, ofcourse i will ask, which particular boss i have to run to get lacunis with crit?
Noone claimed it is a substantial change in gameplay, i just claimed it contributes to the problem.
What it changes (together with other mechanics) is the psychological effect of the rewards, and while im coming to a conclusion that some people are too dense to be desensitivized , it is the fallout.
One might, in a tongue-in-cheek way, even suggest that if players would get more often a good drop, they would even stomach fighting over it at this point.
Flame on!
You've come back around to arguing for letting players steal loot. Which is fine, but again, I didn't respond to a question of whether or not it's a good idea to let players steal loot. I answered the question of how you would stop players from stealing loot.
You can have an open world game where players cannot steal loot from other players. How you set this up depends on every other aspect of your mob killing and looting systems. Those systems would depend on what kind of game you want setup and how you want it to play out.
None of this really has anything to do with the OP. I don't even know why the question was asked. Perhaps the point was that the systems implemented in MMOs can be similar or the same systems implemented in ARPGs and things would tick along just fine because the issues addressed are very similar*.
** edit ** * There's not that much difference between some MMOs and some non-MMOs.
** edit edit ** You can't steal loot in TSW either. For that matter, there aren't many MMORPG where you can steal loot from other players. Which makes me think the kill stealing was more important than the loot stealing part of the question.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by nariusseldon small group dungeons (like in DDO, WOW, LOTRO, DCUO, .....)
arena/battleground pvp (some smaller than BF3)
raids (biggest in WOW is 25 man ... even at 40 man .. it is smaller than BF3 battles)
and not to mention SINGLE PLAYER quests and daily quests.
In fact, the only massive part is the city where people wait for their dungeons/pvp to pop .. and that is just a massive lobby with a massive AH.
So much of the gameplay experience that many players spend most of their time on are not "massive" (like a PS2 hundreds on hundreds battle) in *many* MMOs, may be it is time for MMOs to abandon its roots, and embrace a broader definition. In fact, the texas holden online game i just played is as massive as a MMO. YOu can gamble with 8 people, which has more players than heroic dungeons ... and the lobby is as massive as orgrimmar in WOW.
Just to put on sum perspective, Eve has 50k players on concurrently and usually your the loneliest guy in your corner of space.
People is the problem. they don't want massive anymore.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
Originally posted by lizardbones You've come back around to arguing for letting players steal loot. Which is fine, but again, I didn't respond to a question of whether or not it's a good idea to let players steal loot. I answered the question of how you would stop players from stealing loot.
You can have an open world game where players cannot steal loot from other players. How you set this up depends on every other aspect of your mob killing and looting systems. Those systems would depend on what kind of game you want setup and how you want it to play out.
None of this really has anything to do with the OP. I don't even know why the question was asked. Perhaps the point was that the systems implemented in MMOs can be similar or the same systems implemented in ARPGs and things would tick along just fine because the issues addressed are very similar*.
** edit ** * There's not that much difference between some MMOs and some non-MMOs.
** edit edit ** You can't steal loot in TSW either. For that matter, there aren't many MMORPG where you can steal loot from other players. Which makes me think the kill stealing was more important than the loot stealing part of the question.
I did not come around, i meant it as a joke, unless you want to waste 2 paragraphs, that is
For me the OP was the guy who claimed "If you want to stop a particular behavior in a virtual world, you make it impossible".
** edit **
"Generic observation which is hardly relevant unless i want to start a discussion about it knowing it is a flamed point round here."
It is relevant, because people are not machines, you may be one, what do i know, but people in general are not, and they are even less logical thinking than anyone assumes.
You and the devs cannot expect to just say "yellow is the new white, deal with it".
We judge and feel rewards based on our previous rewards and sometimes even arbitrary factors.
To illustrate, you (in a broader sense, meaning "people") will drive across the town for 100 bucks off on a 500 buck dvd player, you will not if it is on a 10k item, yet it is the same 100 bucks.
Similarly, and more to the point, if you drink cheap coke every day, real coke will be a minor improvement in taste (if you like coke, that is), but if you drink water...
In a wow raid scenario you SEE good items drop, it gives people hope and a sense they have accomplished something, which does not come so easy from "yellow gold piles".
I surely hope you farm mp5 for the keys
Flame on!
You are arguing about human conditioning that you have no evidence of. You said "In a wow raid scenario you SEE good items drop, it gives people hope and a sense they have accomplished something"
That is no difference than seeing a good yellow, or a good "green" or "legendary" (which btw, has a MUCH higher chance to be good, if it drops at all) dropped.
Instead of conditioning to see "yellow as good", players are now conditioned to see "trifecta stats" as good. There is little difference ... just a different lable. And after a while, players will be conditioned to that .. in fact, i know i did. I got excited when i see trifect stats (+primary +vit), or a 1200+ dps 1H weapon.
Lastly, i have like 10 inferno machnies now, so key farming is no longer a high priority. In fact, it is hard to get a good roll on the hellfire ring .. it is much better to farm for legendaries (and i got a decent chance in MP5). Not gear enough to solo high MP ubers though.
Just to put on sum perspective, Eve has 50k players on concurrently and usually your the loneliest guy in your corner of space.
People is the problem. they don't want massive anymore.
Why is it a problem? It is just a gaming preference. There is certainly no problem if the devs respond to that desire.
And why would anyone think "massive" is mandatory for fun? Old PnP RPGs are not massive. AD&D is not massive. In fact, most PNP RPG is about small groups of comrades fighting through a dungeon.
Personally i don't think massive is that important for PvE gameplay. The only place that i enjoy "massive" combat is big pvp battles. (ALthough i do like massive AH/trading, and a massive lobby so you can form small group easily).
Originally posted by Banaghran Originally posted by lizardbones You've come back around to arguing for letting players steal loot. Which is fine, but again, I didn't respond to a question of whether or not it's a good idea to let players steal loot. I answered the question of how you would stop players from stealing loot. You can have an open world game where players cannot steal loot from other players. How you set this up depends on every other aspect of your mob killing and looting systems. Those systems would depend on what kind of game you want setup and how you want it to play out. None of this really has anything to do with the OP. I don't even know why the question was asked. Perhaps the point was that the systems implemented in MMOs can be similar or the same systems implemented in ARPGs and things would tick along just fine because the issues addressed are very similar*. ** edit ** * There's not that much difference between some MMOs and some non-MMOs. ** edit edit ** You can't steal loot in TSW either. For that matter, there aren't many MMORPG where you can steal loot from other players. Which makes me think the kill stealing was more important than the loot stealing part of the question.
I did not come around, i meant it as a joke, unless you want to waste 2 paragraphs, that is
For me the OP was the guy who claimed "If you want to stop a particular behavior in a virtual world, you make it impossible".
** edit **
"Generic observation which is hardly relevant unless i want to start a discussion about it knowing it is a flamed point round here."
Flame on!
You keep coming back to it. It's the only thing you seem to be for rather than against. You're not even arguing against what you stated was the OP. You apparently just don't like the gear drops in D3. You lack the courage of your convictions, sir.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Just to put on sum perspective, Eve has 50k players on concurrently and usually your the loneliest guy in your corner of space.
People is the problem. they don't want massive anymore.
Why is it a problem? It is just a gaming preference. There is certainly no problem if the devs respond to that desire.
And why would anyone think "massive" is mandatory for fun? Old PnP RPGs are not massive. AD&D is not massive. In fact, most PNP RPG is about small groups of comrades fighting through a dungeon.
Personally i don't think massive is that important for PvE gameplay. The only place that i enjoy "massive" combat is big pvp battles. (ALthough i do like massive AH/trading, and a massive lobby so you can form small group easily).
It's massively and not massive. And altough it is not mandatory for "fun" it is mandatory for a Massively Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game. It is like creating a multiplayer game and not having any actual multiplayer.
It's massively and not massive. And altough it is not mandatory for "fun" it is mandatory for a Massively Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game. It is like creating a multiplayer game and not having any actual multiplayer.
No its not. Being multiplayer or not is a binary issue whereas being massive or massively multiplayer is highly debatable.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Just to put on sum perspective, Eve has 50k players on concurrently and usually your the loneliest guy in your corner of space.
People is the problem. they don't want massive anymore.
Why is it a problem? It is just a gaming preference. There is certainly no problem if the devs respond to that desire.
And why would anyone think "massive" is mandatory for fun? Old PnP RPGs are not massive. AD&D is not massive. In fact, most PNP RPG is about small groups of comrades fighting through a dungeon.
Personally i don't think massive is that important for PvE gameplay. The only place that i enjoy "massive" combat is big pvp battles. (ALthough i do like massive AH/trading, and a massive lobby so you can form small group easily).
It's massively and not massive. And altough it is not mandatory for "fun" it is mandatory for a Massively Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game. It is like creating a multiplayer game and not having any actual multiplayer.
No longer true. Have you been reading? Lots of MMORPGs have non-massive gameplay like 5-man dungeons. So it is certainly not mandatory anymore.
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by YamotaOriginally posted by nariusseldonOriginally posted by NitthJust to put on sum perspective, Eve has 50k players on concurrently and usually your the loneliest guy in your corner of space.People is the problem. they don't want massive anymore.
Why is it a problem? It is just a gaming preference. There is certainly no problem if the devs respond to that desire.And why would anyone think "massive" is mandatory for fun? Old PnP RPGs are not massive. AD&D is not massive. In fact, most PNP RPG is about small groups of comrades fighting through a dungeon.Personally i don't think massive is that important for PvE gameplay. The only place that i enjoy "massive" combat is big pvp battles. (ALthough i do like massive AH/trading, and a massive lobby so you can form small group easily). It's massively and not massive. And altough it is not mandatory for "fun" it is mandatory for a Massively Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game. It is like creating a multiplayer game and not having any actual multiplayer.No longer true. Have you been reading? Lots of MMORPGs have non-massive gameplay like 5-man dungeons. So it is certainly not mandatory anymore.
MMOs being able to encompass small scale game play doesn't mean the massively multiplayer aspect of MMOs is no longer necessary. It just means that smaller scale game play is possible within the context of a massively multiplayer game.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
MMOs being able to encompass small scale game play doesn't mean the massively multiplayer aspect of MMOs is no longer necessary. It just means that smaller scale game play is possible within the context of a massively multiplayer game.
Tell me, for pve gameplay, how necessary is massive gameplay. In fact, take WOW, LOTRO, DDO .. and another huge list of MMOs .. there is zero massive pve gameplay. All the gameplay is in small group dungeons, and raids, and solo/group quests. None is massive.
The ONLY massive pve gameplay is staring at each other in a lobby (city), and AH.
In many of these games, not even the pvp gameplay is massive.
If you look at the percentage of time players spend in small group gameplay vs "massive" gameplay, "massive" gameplay don't seem necessary at all.
In fact, when i was still playing WOW, I have almost never engaged in massive pve gameplay because there is none, except may be world boss, which is a) few and far in-between, b) most people i know (and myself) has little interests in it.
Now i am playing some STO .. and once again, where is the "massive" gameplay? There is none and none is necessary to enjoy the game.
I don't think you understood Lizard's point. It's not about how many people are right there in your party or even raid. Heck, WoW raids are mostly 10 people now which I would not consider "massive". It's about the world, not the specific activity.
The point is who else is "out there". In GW I was totally turned off by the fact that once I left the town I knew the whole instance I entered was empty save for me. It's the same reason I don't like single player RPGs. I know there is no one else there. It's not even about socializing as I may go nights without sitting down and talking to someone. It's about being in a persistent world that feels more alive because there are others out there with you while you are playing. This can be applied to small group play. You may have a handful of people with you but knowing there is a whole world of people aside from yor group makes the world seem more alive.
In a humorous way you can apply this to real life. Even if you spent the whole day inside would you not feel more alone knowing there is not another person out there? Now what about five other people? Would having only five other people in the world make it seems like it does now?
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by lizardbonesMMOs being able to encompass small scale game play doesn't mean the massively multiplayer aspect of MMOs is no longer necessary. It just means that smaller scale game play is possible within the context of a massively multiplayer game.
Tell me, for pve gameplay, how necessary is massive gameplay. In fact, take WOW, LOTRO, DDO .. and another huge list of MMOs .. there is zero massive pve gameplay. All the gameplay is in small group dungeons, and raids, and solo/group quests. None is massive.
The ONLY massive pve gameplay is staring at each other in a lobby (city), and AH.
In many of these games, not even the pvp gameplay is massive.
If you look at the percentage of time players spend in small group gameplay vs "massive" gameplay, "massive" gameplay don't seem necessary at all.
In fact, when i was still playing WOW, I have almost never engaged in massive pve gameplay because there is none, except may be world boss, which is a) few and far in-between, b) most people i know (and myself) has little interests in it.
Now i am playing some STO .. and once again, where is the "massive" gameplay? There is none and none is necessary to enjoy the game.
How necessary is multiplayer game play? It's not necessary at all. There isn't anything necessary about any video game anything. People like it though. Which is why video games and MMOs exist. People like it. Many people like massively multiplayer game play. They may also like lobby based game play. That doesn't mean both types of games provide the same experience, even if there is overlap in game play between the two types of games.
When you played WoW, if you logged into the world and ran around in it, you participated in massively multiplayer game play. Simply existing in the world and being visible to other players makes you a participant.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by Aelious I don't think you understood Lizard's point. It's not about how many people are right there in your party or even raid. Heck, WoW raids are mostly 10 people now which I would not consider "massive". It's about the world, not the specific activity.
The point is who else is "out there". In GW I was totally turned off by the fact that once I left the town I knew the whole instance I entered was empty save for me. It's the same reason I don't like single player RPGs. I know there is no one else there. It's not even about socializing as I may go nights without sitting down and talking to someone. It's about being in a persistent world that feels more alive because there are others out there with you while you are playing. This can be applied to small group play. You may have a handful of people with you but knowing there is a whole world of people aside from yor group makes the world seem more alive.
In a humorous way you can apply this to real life. Even if you spent the whole day inside would you not feel more alone knowing there is not another person out there? Now what about five other people? Would having only five other people in the world make it seems like it does now?
So what is the difference between doing an instance in WOW .. which you KNOW no one is going to be in your instance .. and a D3 game .. which similarly no one else is going to be in your game?
The world cease to exist once you are in the instance. If you talk about the actual game .. it is massive .. whether you are talking about D3, Borderlands or WOW. There are always millions playing .. just not in your instance. The world is really not that relevant, when you are not in it .. and what is the difference between a 3D lobby like Orgrimmar, or the D3 menu lobby? You can talk to many players. You can inspect them. You can ask them to a group and go into an instance with you. You can Igo to the trade channel and ask for deals.
I don't have this obsession with the world .. and i don't see it as a main part of the gameplay when you are not in it 99% of the time. It does not even promote socialization as well as chat-rooms, and friend lists.
Originally posted by lizardbonesMMOs being able to encompass small scale game play doesn't mean the massively multiplayer aspect of MMOs is no longer necessary. It just means that smaller scale game play is possible within the context of a massively multiplayer game.
Tell me, for pve gameplay, how necessary is massive gameplay. In fact, take WOW, LOTRO, DDO .. and another huge list of MMOs .. there is zero massive pve gameplay. All the gameplay is in small group dungeons, and raids, and solo/group quests. None is massive.
The ONLY massive pve gameplay is staring at each other in a lobby (city), and AH.
In many of these games, not even the pvp gameplay is massive.
If you look at the percentage of time players spend in small group gameplay vs "massive" gameplay, "massive" gameplay don't seem necessary at all.
In fact, when i was still playing WOW, I have almost never engaged in massive pve gameplay because there is none, except may be world boss, which is a) few and far in-between, b) most people i know (and myself) has little interests in it.
Now i am playing some STO .. and once again, where is the "massive" gameplay? There is none and none is necessary to enjoy the game.
How necessary is multiplayer game play? It's not necessary at all. There isn't anything necessary about any video game anything. People like it though. Which is why video games and MMOs exist. People like it. Many people like massively multiplayer game play. They may also like lobby based game play. That doesn't mean both types of games provide the same experience, even if there is overlap in game play between the two types of games.
When you played WoW, if you logged into the world and ran around in it, you participated in massively multiplayer game play. Simply existing in the world and being visible to other players makes you a participant.
That is what i am disputing. The ONLY "massive MP gameplay" in PVE is liek you say .. run around in a city and let people see you. How many actually like that and not "alt-tab" to surf until their dungeon pops?
And aside from being in a city and look (and AH), there is no other form of massive MP gameplay. Don't you think people focus on dungeons & raids .. or even quests .. and none of those are massive?"
MMOs are massive because they offer a lot of things which other multiplayer games don't. They offer continuity and a persistent world where you can come across other people without joining a "game".
I don't need a game with groups of 300-400 people. That's just stupid. I mean it's fun for a while but gets old fast because it is just mindless zerg.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Originally posted by lizardbonesMMOs being able to encompass small scale game play doesn't mean the massively multiplayer aspect of MMOs is no longer necessary. It just means that smaller scale game play is possible within the context of a massively multiplayer game.
Tell me, for pve gameplay, how necessary is massive gameplay. In fact, take WOW, LOTRO, DDO .. and another huge list of MMOs .. there is zero massive pve gameplay. All the gameplay is in small group dungeons, and raids, and solo/group quests. None is massive.The ONLY massive pve gameplay is staring at each other in a lobby (city), and AH.In many of these games, not even the pvp gameplay is massive.If you look at the percentage of time players spend in small group gameplay vs "massive" gameplay, "massive" gameplay don't seem necessary at all.In fact, when i was still playing WOW, I have almost never engaged in massive pve gameplay because there is none, except may be world boss, which is a) few and far in-between, b) most people i know (and myself) has little interests in it.Now i am playing some STO .. and once again, where is the "massive" gameplay? There is none and none is necessary to enjoy the game.
How necessary is multiplayer game play? It's not necessary at all. There isn't anything necessary about any video game anything. People like it though. Which is why video games and MMOs exist. People like it. Many people like massively multiplayer game play. They may also like lobby based game play. That doesn't mean both types of games provide the same experience, even if there is overlap in game play between the two types of games. When you played WoW, if you logged into the world and ran around in it, you participated in massively multiplayer game play. Simply existing in the world and being visible to other players makes you a participant.
That is what i am disputing. The ONLY "massive MP gameplay" in PVE is liek you say .. run around in a city and let people see you. How many actually like that and not "alt-tab" to surf until their dungeon pops?
And aside from being in a city and look (and AH), there is no other form of massive MP gameplay. Don't you think people focus on dungeons & raids .. or even quests .. and none of those are massive?"
You are talking about direct interactions, and ignoring indirect interactions. You directly interact with very few people in game. You indirectly interact with many people in game. One of those indirect interactions is just seeing people running around in the world.
I've watched people do a level 1 gnome run across the continents in WoW. They directly interacted with few people, but indirectly interacted with many people. A massive number of people heard the stories inside the game increasing the interactions and the persistent nature of the players' activities. That type of thing would not have been possible in a lobby based game.
Except it's certainly possible to directly interact with hundreds of people. I've done it. It was choppy as heck, but it happened. It would not have been possible if the instead of a virtual world the game just had a lobby.
So again, is it necessary? No, of course not. Nothing in video games is really necessary. Is it desired? Yes.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
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Hmm, so gaining 0.5% of a level every hour while gaining loot and wealth is grind, but a item that has essentially no value other than being a "nice drop" is easy mode.
Interesting.
Flame on!
Fair enough for the response.
As for private loot piles, private loot in d3 mean full loot for everyone, in this sense a group of 4 gets 4x the amount of items that an group of 1. Thus private loot in this case increases the amount of loot. Which is in line of my argument that it is never that easy as "just make it impossible", they did, but the execution contributed to another problem.
The rest is academic, "if" blizz wanted this and that, if blizz wanted to create a good game, they would not have released d3 so unfinished
I have no problem with your suggestions per se, we could maybe talk about how you want to (or respectively, how it is if the system works somewhere) divide loot or how to avoid the mischief of randomly increasing the level of mobs for noobs, or some timeout on loot piles (i do enjoy picking up stuff after bots after reporting them, much better than just reporting them
)
Flame on!
So whether there are a boat loads of useless yellow is pretty much irrelevant to this discussion. Whether they are yellow, or white .. makes zero difference. The only thing that matters is how often you get something "useful".
And i disagree with your assessment. I am farming MP5 now .. and my next upgrade (for roughly 10-20k dps increase) is in the 100M range. So 100M ... is pretty good at least for my toon. And last time i check, my DPS is roughly at the less than 5% quantile (roughly top 5000 in US, less than top 2000 wiz) ... so i will guess many players are getting upgrade FASTER than me.
At the end of the day, it is really about the speed of upgrade. In a WOW raid scenario, it is easily 1-2 weeks before a single upgrade .. i don't see D3 as much slower.
I just forget, the discussion is about loot stealing .. in that aspect ... D3 and LFR loot system obviously eliminated the problem.
Now we can discuss the speed of loot drop, but that is obivously an independent issue. Blizz can easily double of halve the loot drop and still maintain the private loot.
Personally, i like private loot. No need to fight over loot .. and eliminate one interaction problem.
Each player gets a chance at a good piece of gear when they drop the big mob. Most of the gear, while of "yellow" quality, is still garbage. The players didn't get a loot drop, they got a pre-vendor drop that they aren't expected to keep. The players still have to run and re-run a particular boss or section of the game until they get a piece of gear that they want to keep. Private loot piles don't make a substantial change in game play between D2 and D3. To be honest, this is the first I've heard anyone complain about private loot or too many drops in D3. Like GW2, I sit with people who play the game and won't shut up about it. This has never come up before.
But keep in mind, I answered two very specific questions with two very specific answers. Anything outside those very specific questions wasn't considered because it wasn't part of the questions.
** edit **
Happy New Year Everyone!
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
That you state how it is does not make it ok, does it?
You are not keeping a very close look on the game, forums and broader community if you have never heard and experienced "there are too many useless drops". And, ofcourse i will ask, which particular boss i have to run to get lacunis with crit?
Noone claimed it is a substantial change in gameplay, i just claimed it contributes to the problem.
What it changes (together with other mechanics) is the psychological effect of the rewards, and while im coming to a conclusion that some people are too dense to be desensitivized
, it is the fallout.
One might, in a tongue-in-cheek way, even suggest that if players would get more often a good drop, they would even stomach fighting over it at this point.
Flame on!
It is relevant, because people are not machines, you may be one, what do i know, but people in general are not, and they are even less logical thinking than anyone assumes.
You and the devs cannot expect to just say "yellow is the new white, deal with it".
We judge and feel rewards based on our previous rewards and sometimes even arbitrary factors.
To illustrate, you (in a broader sense, meaning "people") will drive across the town for 100 bucks off on a 500 buck dvd player, you will not if it is on a 10k item, yet it is the same 100 bucks.
Similarly, and more to the point, if you drink cheap coke every day, real coke will be a minor improvement in taste (if you like coke, that is), but if you drink water...
In a wow raid scenario you SEE good items drop, it gives people hope and a sense they have accomplished something, which does not come so easy from "yellow gold piles".
I surely hope you farm mp5 for the keys
Flame on!
so say we all
You've come back around to arguing for letting players steal loot. Which is fine, but again, I didn't respond to a question of whether or not it's a good idea to let players steal loot. I answered the question of how you would stop players from stealing loot.
You can have an open world game where players cannot steal loot from other players. How you set this up depends on every other aspect of your mob killing and looting systems. Those systems would depend on what kind of game you want setup and how you want it to play out.
None of this really has anything to do with the OP. I don't even know why the question was asked. Perhaps the point was that the systems implemented in MMOs can be similar or the same systems implemented in ARPGs and things would tick along just fine because the issues addressed are very similar*.
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* There's not that much difference between some MMOs and some non-MMOs.
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You can't steal loot in TSW either. For that matter, there aren't many MMORPG where you can steal loot from other players. Which makes me think the kill stealing was more important than the loot stealing part of the question.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Just to put on sum perspective, Eve has 50k players on concurrently and usually your the loneliest guy in your corner of space.
People is the problem. they don't want massive anymore.
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I did not come around, i meant it as a joke, unless you want to waste 2 paragraphs, that is
For me the OP was the guy who claimed "If you want to stop a particular behavior in a virtual world, you make it impossible".
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"Generic observation which is hardly relevant unless i want to start a discussion about it knowing it is a flamed point round here."
Flame on!
You are arguing about human conditioning that you have no evidence of. You said "In a wow raid scenario you SEE good items drop, it gives people hope and a sense they have accomplished something"
That is no difference than seeing a good yellow, or a good "green" or "legendary" (which btw, has a MUCH higher chance to be good, if it drops at all) dropped.
Instead of conditioning to see "yellow as good", players are now conditioned to see "trifecta stats" as good. There is little difference ... just a different lable. And after a while, players will be conditioned to that .. in fact, i know i did. I got excited when i see trifect stats (+primary +vit), or a 1200+ dps 1H weapon.
Lastly, i have like 10 inferno machnies now, so key farming is no longer a high priority. In fact, it is hard to get a good roll on the hellfire ring .. it is much better to farm for legendaries (and i got a decent chance in MP5). Not gear enough to solo high MP ubers though.
Why is it a problem? It is just a gaming preference. There is certainly no problem if the devs respond to that desire.
And why would anyone think "massive" is mandatory for fun? Old PnP RPGs are not massive. AD&D is not massive. In fact, most PNP RPG is about small groups of comrades fighting through a dungeon.
Personally i don't think massive is that important for PvE gameplay. The only place that i enjoy "massive" combat is big pvp battles. (ALthough i do like massive AH/trading, and a massive lobby so you can form small group easily).
For me the OP was the guy who claimed "If you want to stop a particular behavior in a virtual world, you make it impossible".
** edit **
"Generic observation which is hardly relevant unless i want to start a discussion about it knowing it is a flamed point round here."
Flame on!
You keep coming back to it. It's the only thing you seem to be for rather than against. You're not even arguing against what you stated was the OP. You apparently just don't like the gear drops in D3. You lack the courage of your convictions, sir.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
It's massively and not massive. And altough it is not mandatory for "fun" it is mandatory for a Massively Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game. It is like creating a multiplayer game and not having any actual multiplayer.
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No its not. Being multiplayer or not is a binary issue whereas being massive or massively multiplayer is highly debatable.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
No longer true. Have you been reading? Lots of MMORPGs have non-massive gameplay like 5-man dungeons. So it is certainly not mandatory anymore.
It's massively and not massive. And altough it is not mandatory for "fun" it is mandatory for a Massively Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game. It is like creating a multiplayer game and not having any actual multiplayer.
No longer true. Have you been reading? Lots of MMORPGs have non-massive gameplay like 5-man dungeons. So it is certainly not mandatory anymore.
MMOs being able to encompass small scale game play doesn't mean the massively multiplayer aspect of MMOs is no longer necessary. It just means that smaller scale game play is possible within the context of a massively multiplayer game.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Tell me, for pve gameplay, how necessary is massive gameplay. In fact, take WOW, LOTRO, DDO .. and another huge list of MMOs .. there is zero massive pve gameplay. All the gameplay is in small group dungeons, and raids, and solo/group quests. None is massive.
The ONLY massive pve gameplay is staring at each other in a lobby (city), and AH.
In many of these games, not even the pvp gameplay is massive.
If you look at the percentage of time players spend in small group gameplay vs "massive" gameplay, "massive" gameplay don't seem necessary at all.
In fact, when i was still playing WOW, I have almost never engaged in massive pve gameplay because there is none, except may be world boss, which is a) few and far in-between, b) most people i know (and myself) has little interests in it.
Now i am playing some STO .. and once again, where is the "massive" gameplay? There is none and none is necessary to enjoy the game.
The point is who else is "out there". In GW I was totally turned off by the fact that once I left the town I knew the whole instance I entered was empty save for me. It's the same reason I don't like single player RPGs. I know there is no one else there. It's not even about socializing as I may go nights without sitting down and talking to someone. It's about being in a persistent world that feels more alive because there are others out there with you while you are playing. This can be applied to small group play. You may have a handful of people with you but knowing there is a whole world of people aside from yor group makes the world seem more alive.
In a humorous way you can apply this to real life. Even if you spent the whole day inside would you not feel more alone knowing there is not another person out there? Now what about five other people? Would having only five other people in the world make it seems like it does now?
The ONLY massive pve gameplay is staring at each other in a lobby (city), and AH.
In many of these games, not even the pvp gameplay is massive.
If you look at the percentage of time players spend in small group gameplay vs "massive" gameplay, "massive" gameplay don't seem necessary at all.
In fact, when i was still playing WOW, I have almost never engaged in massive pve gameplay because there is none, except may be world boss, which is a) few and far in-between, b) most people i know (and myself) has little interests in it.
Now i am playing some STO .. and once again, where is the "massive" gameplay? There is none and none is necessary to enjoy the game.
How necessary is multiplayer game play? It's not necessary at all. There isn't anything necessary about any video game anything. People like it though. Which is why video games and MMOs exist. People like it. Many people like massively multiplayer game play. They may also like lobby based game play. That doesn't mean both types of games provide the same experience, even if there is overlap in game play between the two types of games.
When you played WoW, if you logged into the world and ran around in it, you participated in massively multiplayer game play. Simply existing in the world and being visible to other players makes you a participant.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
So what is the difference between doing an instance in WOW .. which you KNOW no one is going to be in your instance .. and a D3 game .. which similarly no one else is going to be in your game?
The world cease to exist once you are in the instance. If you talk about the actual game .. it is massive .. whether you are talking about D3, Borderlands or WOW. There are always millions playing .. just not in your instance. The world is really not that relevant, when you are not in it .. and what is the difference between a 3D lobby like Orgrimmar, or the D3 menu lobby? You can talk to many players. You can inspect them. You can ask them to a group and go into an instance with you. You can Igo to the trade channel and ask for deals.
I don't have this obsession with the world .. and i don't see it as a main part of the gameplay when you are not in it 99% of the time. It does not even promote socialization as well as chat-rooms, and friend lists.
That is what i am disputing. The ONLY "massive MP gameplay" in PVE is liek you say .. run around in a city and let people see you. How many actually like that and not "alt-tab" to surf until their dungeon pops?
And aside from being in a city and look (and AH), there is no other form of massive MP gameplay. Don't you think people focus on dungeons & raids .. or even quests .. and none of those are massive?"
MMOs are massive because they offer a lot of things which other multiplayer games don't. They offer continuity and a persistent world where you can come across other people without joining a "game".
I don't need a game with groups of 300-400 people. That's just stupid. I mean it's fun for a while but gets old fast because it is just mindless zerg.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
You are talking about direct interactions, and ignoring indirect interactions. You directly interact with very few people in game. You indirectly interact with many people in game. One of those indirect interactions is just seeing people running around in the world.
I've watched people do a level 1 gnome run across the continents in WoW. They directly interacted with few people, but indirectly interacted with many people. A massive number of people heard the stories inside the game increasing the interactions and the persistent nature of the players' activities. That type of thing would not have been possible in a lobby based game.
Except it's certainly possible to directly interact with hundreds of people. I've done it. It was choppy as heck, but it happened. It would not have been possible if the instead of a virtual world the game just had a lobby.
So again, is it necessary? No, of course not. Nothing in video games is really necessary. Is it desired? Yes.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.