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Originally posted by Slappy1 With all do respect,even though the data may/is showing that people like or favor item malls.I would argue that a large amount of the support is from people playing games like EQ2/EQ/VG/Free Realms/DCUO/AOC/STO,CO and so on.These games don't come across as ptw at all to me.When you dig into other games,many of them are browser games you can really see the ptw. I never really looked at many of the ftp games I don't play,but the more I do it's just sad.
I wonder if people are only favouring it due to the current MMO climate right now. However, like others have said, there are different business models for it and some work better than others. Like you, I've come across some that are just abysmal and some that are pretty decent. For me, I always make sure that any F2P I may potentially enjoy has a sub option that is on equal terms with the F2P option. Basically, I dont want to sub and still feel like I need to make micro transactions still.
Some games don't fit the bill, such as LoL (I know not an MMO), and to be honest, I like their model.
Originally posted by Loktofeit Originally posted by Slappy1 With all do respect,even though the data may/is showing that people like or favor item malls.I would argue that a large amount of the support is from people playing games like EQ2/EQ/VG/Free Realms/DCUO/AOC/STO,CO and so on.These games don't come across as ptw at all to me.When you dig into other games,many of them are browser games you can really see the ptw. I never really looked at many of the ftp games I don't play,but the more I do it's just sad.
I agree completely that there is a wide range of approaches within the business model, some much more accepted than others. For example, NA gamers seem to be more than willing to shell out cash for cool skins and crazy mounts, however if you put those skins or mounts in mystery boxes it becomes almost universally rejected. Those same mystery boxes, though, if they offer a collection of items that can otherwise be obtained by regular play, then become far more acceptable.
I think I've spent more on Free Realms and Combat Arms than any other F2P games. On the flip side of that coin, I'd never give Runes of Magic or War Rock a dime of my money. Lots of variations within the model.
Thats a pretty good observation, never looked at it from that perspective!
Originally posted by madazz Originally posted by Slappy1 With all do respect,even though the data may/is showing that people like or favor item malls.I would argue that a large amount of the support is from people playing games like EQ2/EQ/VG/Free Realms/DCUO/AOC/STO,CO and so on.These games don't come across as ptw at all to me.When you dig into other games,many of them are browser games you can really see the ptw. I never really looked at many of the ftp games I don't play,but the more I do it's just sad.
I don't do recurring subs anymore, but I do occassionally buy a month of premium, or if a purchase package includes it then I'll take full advantage. When I buy premium I would rather not have to buy content or unlocks from the store. I really expect that to be included in the premium package.
On the other hand I hate when a game locks key fun features, content, or access behind the sub so the free play is little more than a gimped trial.
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Many posters seem to think F2P was designed to allow them to play MMO’s which they did not want to play with the sub. Or that it was some sort of Gaming Welfare.
F2P is a revenue system, it is there to make money for the company that made the game. We told players who thought that F2P heralded a free ride in MMO’s that they were being delude and maybe they are now wising up to this fact.
For my next prediction, you will be seeing P2W creeping in over the next few years. These companies want to make money, the player base has accepted the F2P model. Gamers have proven themselves to be short sighted and gaming companies will just push forward in getting a maximum return from their game.
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Originally posted by Scot Many posters seem to think F2P was designed to allow them to play MMO’s which they did not want to play with the sub. Or that it was some sort of Gaming Welfare. F2P is a revenue system, it is there to make money for the company that made the game. We told players who thought that F2P heralded a free ride in MMO’s that they were being delude and maybe they are now wising up to this fact. For my next prediction, you will be seeing P2W creeping in over the next few years. These companies want to make money, the player base has accepted the F2P model. Gamers have proven themselves to be short sighted and gaming companies will just push forward in getting a maximum return from their game.
Its probably long past time that these games are no longer referred to as being free to play, because their not, they are microtransaction based games, although sometimes the 'micro' part isnt really all that 'micro' and the amount often needed to be paid can be significantly more than you would find in a P2P type of game, its just the 'charges' are spread out more. Take planetside 2, probably one of the newest additions to this genre, technically you can pay nothing, but if you really do intend to make a difference, then the amount you need to spend is significant, extremely so. What may prove the games ultimate downfall though, is that also appears to be the case if you engage in a subscription.. somewhere out there, there is probably a game that has a microtransaction based model that is as fair to the players as it is to the company owning the game, its possible GW2 might fit this description, but the style of gameplay isnt for me.
Free to play is a demo for you to either sub or pay to unlock in the shop, which isn't a bad deal really. Especially, if you like to play 5-6 games at a time and you aren't willing to pay $60-75 a month on subscriptions...
Some people love to be hardcore and only play one game, great for them, but personally I Love being able to be casual on multiple games and to play each game slowly at my own pace, without the constant worry that my subscription time is running out and I have to cancel/rotate mmos around like I was doing several years ago...
Having to quit playing a game you enjoy because you are playing other mmos at the same time is sad, and you (along with all of the other's who quit like you) are destroying it because the population drops and everyone thinks that the game is "dying or dead". When in reality, people still love the game and want to play it, they just have other games distracting them at the time. So, friend quits for 3 months and you miss them because they are gone, cancelled sub, free to play they never quit, continue to log on less often but still more often than once every 3 months, and everyone else on the game thinks that the game is "thriving, with a wonderfully pleasant active community". Despite how many are free, or how many actually pay it doesn't matter, because the paying get their fun, and the free get ours...
As said earlier, you don't have to unlock everything, you can play slowly and casually, but of course if you are hardcore single focused like a lot of people you should stick with subscriptions....
I had a subscription on Everquesst 1 for 7 years, now I can play for free... It sure feels nice to be able to log in, after putting thousands of dollars and over a year of actual in-game time into a game...
I put money into the shop opened up race/classes, and of course inventory space/backpacks, now I don't need to buy anything else ever, I have what I want from it ).
SWToR has the worst I have ever seen, however, I will still play it and see all of the class stories that I missed out on being casual and not playing enough during my subscription time... I simply can't believe you'd lock inventory expansion behind a paying cash wall, on lord of the rings online I can use either in game currency or turbine points (grinded from deeds for free even) to unlock everything...
Oh, but Free to Play isn't truly Free, these are Freemiums, designed to be subscription that went free in most cases.
Truely Free to Play is : Rappelz, Last Chaos, Eden Eternal, and Shaiya Light From Darkness.... along with Browser Facebook apps like : Farmville, Zoo World, Farmville 2, Cityville, Cityville 2, Pioneer Trails, Fish World, Chefville, The Ville, etc...
Difference is the fact that I didn't have to unlock race/classes in them, or even inventory but I didn't play all that long, or title/helmet graphic turn off like SWToR (who thought of that one?), although they were limited, the items that cost me money were cosmetic decorational fluff and not required in order to play, there is sharing of items on Facebook so all of those game items that cost cash can be given from kind people for free to you via a simple link on Facebook...
Free is usually terribly limited in class/races/skills/fluff in game, however, they are slowly improving and getting better... Runes of Magic even had a housing system, but they do love to overly advertise you on free/freemiums with gigantic oversized shop icons like you're blind, and ugly character selection screens... In game Advertisements are also lame on Freemiums, but I never had to deal with them on the Free to play that I played...
Mainly, Freemiums are still pushing Subscriptions, they did not go entirely free, they want to still force subs, with pop-ups that constantly remind you to "Go Gold!!! " . As if anyone needs to be reminded, we all know its an option, as we also know how to find the marketplace, and don't need a huge ugly icon to show us where it is!!
Only beef I have ever had with Lord of the Rings Online was their ugly character screen and huge LoTRO Store button after Free to Play, when the previous subscription character selection screen had looked pretty and stylish, but I digress....
F2P is stupid, it's either unbalanced or content restricted.
I don't play cash-shop games, the end.
Originally posted by SpectralHunter Originally posted by Foncl Well it's the same phenomenon that happens with most products in our wear and tear society today. Quality is difficult to sell, most people are very uninformed about the product and only look at the price tag. Free to play looks better on the price tag than pay to play or buy to play so the masses go for free to play and get milked for money further down the road. I believe the way to stop this trend is by educating gamers about the consequences of free to play on how games are designed, where a clear goal of the developer is to increase cash shop profits.
Yeah, that's not going to happen. Educate gamers? Forget that. Just educate people in general. If education was done right, our political and financial outlook would be far better. If we can't get the critical stuff right, there's no hope on the smaller stuff like gaming.
Not going to happen. People who are actively thoughtful, rather than reactively emotive are *much* more difficult to control and/or manipulate. Thats why the system is based on indoctrination, rather than education. Gaming is just one small subset of the actvities involved.
it became ok the very momment the first few people started crying about how they thought it was a con to pay for a subscription plan game.. so we have gone from a measily £10.00 GBP per month to obcene amounts of money required to get any where in todays free to play games.
all i can say is well done you sulkers you just made games more exspencive to play for us all.
on another note, there is no such thing as free to play games.. your a retard if you think their is..
saying that!!! swg emu is free but then you still need to own an orriginal install disc for swg which unfortunately costs money. then you pay for your internet
so freemium games are bad always have been always will be and cost more too. you bunch of clever retards that brought this about. cry enough and they will listen. after ofcourse they do some market research into how to make free games proffitable lol.
Originally posted by Sogi-Ya I'm seeing F2P game after F2P game price gouge the fuck out of "premium services" and "boosters," sometimes for double or tripple the cost of what it would take for a monthly subscription to a P2P game .... when did this becoime ok to do? I guess this is the victory lap F2P beating P2P or something: now that F2P has is clearly winning the battle VS P2P it dosen't have to keep competitive on comparable subscriptions pricing. [mod edit]: the whole reason F2P took off was because it was more accessible and affordable than P2P, shit gets too bad people will just shift back in the other direction ... espacally if going B2P works out for TSW and western P2P holdouts realise that there are other options to stay competitive.
So-called "f2p" was NEVER "more accessible and affordable". Remember, these are businesses and businesses need to make money in order to survive (make a profit). You can not make anything and give it away and expect to make money. Therefore, NEVER assume when someone says something is "free" that they are not going to try to make money. IMHO, f2p is a very bad marketing ploy that consumers should RUN away from as fast as they can.
Let's party like it is 1863!
Not understanding the 'F2P' hate.
What's the difference between F2P and Extended Trial?
Both doesn't require you to spend money to see what the game is about.
If the player wants to spend money then that's up to the player on how much for how long.
Should a business have a limit on how much money their consumer spends on them? I highly doubt it and really don't see a reason for it.
Gdemami -Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Originally posted by delete5230 Why on Earth would anyone ever even play a f2P mmo anyway. I guess I could see it if your 10 years old and dad will not give up his credit card, or a struggling collage student, all trying to play SOMETHING totally free for lack of funds. But an mmo ?....How do you play with others ?....Eather there gimped or your gimped by not spending a penny. You paid for a package and all others don't have the same package as you ! Once a game goes F2P, I drop it forever: - Vanguard was one of my best, but I never looked back once it went F2P. - I never really gave LOTRO a real chance, I would love to now, but went F2P. I would not touch this game with a ten foot pole now. There F2P for a reasion....To suck you dry, its a last dying effort that does not last long. We have a lot of free band wagon jumpers here just waiting for the next mmo to go F2P. They fill up a world for about a week and the world is empty again. As I say, I could understand collage kids or 10 year olds, but If your not in the completely no money category and THINK YOUR GONNA GET SOMETHING GOOD FOR ALMOST NOTHING YOUR NOT LEARNING A LESSON FROM ALL F2P GAMES. How long will this cycle of thinking last before people stop bashing there heads messing around with F2P ?
You sound like you don't play any mmo that's f2p? I would like to know exactly what mmo ISN'T f2p anymore? lol
Originally posted by worldalpha Our approach is to make everything affordable to get as many paying customers as possible.
Or you can peddle Ferraris instead of Yugos. The coolest thing about 'free markets' is that you'll be able to find buyers at either price point.
One of the things old-timey games did a whole lot better than any modern MMO?
Customer service. Yup, no "tickets", no two-day or multi-week waits. You could not only talk with a real, live person in game any time you wanted to; but they had time to chat with the customers too.
But a high staff to player ratio is very expensive, relatively speaking. Not going to happen in a 'MASSIVE' game, of any variety.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by Czanrei
Not many MMOs but the majority of MMO players do pay a sub fee because of WoW's dominance.
Originally posted by jpnz Not understanding the 'F2P' hate. What's the difference between F2P and Extended Trial?
I think it is because 'Free to Play' is ultimately just a misleading spin... a smoke and mirrors con which a lot of people feel, in the end, betrayed by.
If this revenue model had been marketed as 'Cash Shop Play' from the start I would have a little less of an issue with it, but then it wouldn't have hooked so many in I guess.
Originally posted by Vesavius Originally posted by jpnz Not understanding the 'F2P' hate. What's the difference between F2P and Extended Trial?
Meh, if someone feels 'betrayed' cause they didn't know what they were playing / paying, that's... dumb. -.-
I don't think all F2P are 'cash shop play' though, League of Legends, PS2 has a fairly decent model.
Originally posted by Loktofeit Originally posted by lizardbones Aren't the people who are buying thirty to fifty dollars worth of stuff in cash shops doing it of their own free will? I mean, they are choosing to buy the stuff...it's not being forced upon them, right? There are also other games available to play that don't cost nearly as much, yes? So they are choosing to play the expensive games in the first place, right? I would say it's never not been okay to charge anyone whatever you want to charge them in a game. If people are willing to pay the price you charge, then not only is it okay, it's profitable. I would be fine with games moving towards B2P rather than F2P myself. I don't know if games will move more in that direction, but it at least seems like a possibility. ** edit ** Heh. What nariusseldon said.
I agree with lizard and narius on this one.
Play the ones that have a model you like and let others play the ones that have models they like.
Agreed. It isn't hurting anyone. But I can see why people would complain about it anyways. Many people play online games for competition. One of the worst area for P2W are the MMORTS games that were discussed in this thread, and when someone in those games invests hundreds, you are no longer competitive. So while I can see their point for not liking it, it is up to them to not join those games.
Reminds me of a guy I know, he bought Diablo 3 and then freaked out when he got it and found you needed to be online! Seriously... Same goes for these games. All the info is there, just take a quick look. I was going to get into Stronghold online for a change until I read about the amounts people are throwing into it.... if the company can keep the game alive with that kind of model, all the more power to them, just a shame I won't be playing it. Ahwell.... there are always room for others.
Originally posted by jpnz Originally posted by Czanrei
"Of all 50 million MMO gamers in the US, 23 million spend money on free-to-play or subscription MMOs." 23M is not majority. It is a minority out of 50M.
Originally posted by SpectralHunter Originally posted by nariusseldon What you call gouging, i call free market. Surely i won't play the game you just linked .. but once again, if they are successful in luring people spending thousand of dollars, more power to them. For me, i have other games to play.
Until all the other games start doing the same thing. We are witnessing the homogenization of the MMO market. Things are still up in the air because companies are still testing what players are willing to spend and how to manipulate their games to increase spending. F2P gives companies options on how to charge which makes for a better system to manipulate. I'm not saying it's right or wrong but games will start costing the same everywhere and their will be tiered pricing (already happening in f2p).
It happens in every market. Think of what you spend on cable, internet, cell phones; pretty much everything that is widely consumable.
You miss the point that cable & internet are pretty much monopolies and MMOs are not.
Look at smart phone/iOS games .. they raced down to less than a few dollars. And if there is tier pricing, with the lowest tier FREE, it is a good thing since it allows everyone to play some of the games.
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by jpnz Originally posted by Czanrei
I stand corrected.
However, I would dispute their '50M' number but meh, too early in the morning for me. XD
Originally posted by jpnz Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by jpnz Originally posted by Czanrei
You see, that website releases some stats but makes their money by gathering data from those numbers. We are not seeing the data. One of the things we aren't seeing is the retention rate for these F2P mmo games. What if 75% of those F2P players are actually subbed to another game and only tried that F2P once to see what it is all about? I am not even remotely trying to say that is what it is, but I am trying to point out that those numbers are very basic and don't really tell a story. It may give an impression to us, but the numbers have no significance. These companies aren't going to release the true data for free, they gotta make money some how!!!
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