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Originally posted by Roguewiz If WoW is Sandbox, then Everquest is truely about Quests.
Touche (I can't do the funky ' over the e, but you get the point).
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
Originally posted by Loktofeit Originally posted by XAPGames In terms of MMORPGs, no. It is somewhat similar in nature to free-roaming single player console games that the consolers call sandboxes, but a console sandbox and an MMORPG sandbox are quite different.
Well, looks like he hooked one.
XAP, it's his bi-annual troll post. SSDY
Noobs, trolls, spotlight posters... they all look the same to me. :-)
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
Originally posted by XAPGames Originally posted by Loktofeit Originally posted by XAPGames In terms of MMORPGs, no. It is somewhat similar in nature to free-roaming single player console games that the consolers call sandboxes, but a console sandbox and an MMORPG sandbox are quite different.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Dauntis Okay, well maybe the better question is what is a sandbox other than a themepark without questing?
Boiling it down; a sandbox gives the player tools to make their own experience. A themepark uses tools to create an experience for the player.
Any game can do that; but if it wasn't planned, it's not an optimal experience. There are many games that weren't made to roleplay--but people find ways.
Played - M59, EQOA, EQ, EQ2, PS, SWG[Favorite], DAoC, UO, RS, MXO, CoH/CoV, TR, FFXI, FoM, WoW, Eve, Rift, SWTOR, TSW. Playing - PS2, AoW, GW2
eve has quests.
a sandbox isn't a themepark without questing.
going to take a cr...going to think about this for a second. champagne makes thinking difficult.
alright. i'm back.
wow: mage. lvel 10: trainer says 'train fireball". level 20. trainer says "train pyroblast".
eve: amarr: I want to be a miner. let's train mining barges. hey I need to kill pirates in belts. let's train destroyers first. these guys drop autocannons, mayb i should train projectile weapons instead of beam lasers. okay, back to mining barges. I'll never afford the mining barge, let's go up to cruisers first. Maybe if i had a MWD i'd have less downtime. These weapnos take too much powergrid, let's upgrade that. what is this? surgical strike? let's go. wait, if i'm a miner, i could also build stuff. maybe work on refining skills? not yet...let's get mining first. wait I might need a hauler, industry won't take long. Oh, fleet wants me in a drake, I trained gallente. let's go caldari frig-> c. wait i cant use the weapons, let's train that....but after i get the mining upgrades.
the line between sandbox and thempark is very hazy to me. PPL r saying age of wushu is a sandbox but to me its a theampark. What is a sandbox to me? I game like minecraft, salem, darkfall, games that have NO quests and just throw u in a world to do as u please and build things like as if your in a sandbox as a kid, not have layed out quests.
EVE and Age of Wusu are not sandboxes to me and never will be...sandboxes have no quests...
in sandboxes YOU creat what happens. quests that r layed out and tell u what to do are theamparks...am i wrong?
Salem is a sandbox, has no quests.
Minecraft is a sandbox, has no quests.
Darkfall is a sandbox, has next to no quests.
WoW has quests and is a themapark.
GW2 has quests n is a theampark.
TSW has quests and is a theampark.
so that being said woudnt it makes sense that games with quests r layed out liek a threampark is?
and games that let you do whatever you want without direction are like a kids sandbox?
End of rant.
Originally posted by Dantae87 the line between sandbox and thempark is very hazy to me. PPL r saying age of wushu is a sandbox but to me its a theampark. What is a sandbox to me? I game like minecraft, salem, darkfall, games that have NO quests and just throw u in a world to do as u please and build things like as if your in a sandbox as a kid, not have layed out quests. EVE and Age of Wusu are not sandboxes to me and never will be...sandboxes have no quests...end of my rant
When I played Darkfall that one day, a fellow gave me a quest to go kill some goblins.
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Originally posted by Dantae87 EVE and Age of Wusu are not sandboxes to me and never will be...sandboxes have no quests...end of my rant
The difference is in EVE at least you can completely ignore the missions/quests and still have plenty to do. The key with quests is not eliminating them, but making them one option out of many. EVE does this quite well and this to me is what makes is a true sandbox; there is no one dominant play style that everyone must do in order to "advance" their character. WOW, for all of it's options, still relys almost entirely on quests to advance your character, and thus isn't even remotely a sandbox; it may be a very well developed themepark, but it's still a themepark. Even FFXI, one of the better developed themeparks, is still a themepark; there is essentially one path that everyone follows to gain levels, regardless of the details of what that path has looked like at different times in it's history.
when I played Lineage 2, I was surprised to see quest like "go kill these guys, bring these items...I'll pay you per item, he more you bring in bulk the more I pay".
it's very similar to a 'go kill 5 boars' except it gives me the freedom to kill 5...10...15...or just 3. and not be meaningless killing.
I think that's the sandbox-themepark line. if the meaningful-meaningless is clear-cut by the game, it's a themepark. if it's a "do whatever, the NPCs will react accordingly" then its a sandbox.
the NPC didnt tell me how many to kill. He said 'go kill". leaving me decide how many is enough.
@Hybrid comment: because it can be balanced. do you make player-made items equal with raid items ? well killing a raid boss might require many weeks for some players, whereas gathering the materials to build it only a few days. Why'd they raid when they can craft.
balancing the risk-reward in a ... Themebox ... Sandpark ... would be insanely difficult. it's going to end up being not what players expect. for example one may argue eve has raids (escalations, incursions, static plex'es)...and another may argue they are dynamic events since some scale with number of ships that warp into the room. Then there's wormhole PvE which is quite extreme compared to anything else in New Eden.
fact remains this pve content is a small fraction of EVE. Thn wow has some nascent territorial control in TB/WG. where the winning team does influence the entire server in a small fashon.
final edit: 2009. eve trial. the tutorial. kept giving me quest after quest...kill this, go there, deliver this,...and about 5 quests into the tutorial I said "Enough of this. I want to mine. leave me alone". so I dropped everything in my jurnal and hit the belts. it's 2013. I'm still mining and building a dreadnaught by myself. its 50% built (the components). Can you do that in wow ? say "enough of this", stop questing, go do what YOU want to do and 4 years later still be there doing it and enjoying it ?
and this is mining. what some consider eve's most boring aspect. I don't know, i find it super relaxing. Until a neut enters the system, then it's "quick, to the POS. do I have time to pull the drones? how far is the gate? I'll allign and see. Crap, he's on grid. I got 2 drones in, good enough. warping now. Phew I made it "
Originally posted by Dauntis I don't see why people say a "Hybrid" is impossible.
Can you link to where someone said it was impossible?
Originally posted by Dauntis I don't see why people say a "Hybrid" is impossible. What if they made an mmo that had civillized areas that NPC's populate and give quests and such, but also had wide open "unexplored" wild areas that players could use to create their own content, like building player run cities etc.?
Its not impossible. its just some people ignore the ketchup they get on the side with dinner, And some people get PISSED if they are given ketchup on the side with dinner.
Eve in fact is a great example of a hybrid. if people never venture out into Null sec they will never see the sandbox portion.
Because i can.I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.Logic every gamers worst enemy.
Originally posted by Dauntis I really just like to spark up this conversation occasionally to see how the definitions have changed. This hardly makes me a troll. I actually want answers and opinions, not trying to grief people.
I actually appreciate your thread and the questions you are throwing out. No shame in doing that. No I don't think you are trolling. We're also beginning to get some input here on the perceived differences, which I would imagine are a little different for everybody.
Themeparks are typically pre created worlds. They function in the way the developers intended for them to, and creativity is limited to the developers, not typically the players.
I always imagined sandboxes were akin to dumping a bunch of action figures in front of a 7 year old and seeing what he does with them, while themeparks are like a board game you want to play with him. There are rules. He must follow them.
AA works that way correct?
Originally posted by zomard100 Well in some points you are right. WOW is more sandbox then most of ''sandbox' games. Auction house=player driven economy, free to go where ever you want, attack people where ever you want, now we get housing. Me as long time Eve Online player can't see much difference, only what you can't do in wow id looting of players, rest is almost the same
The difference is that you can sell drops aswell from mobs. Also it depends on how hardcore into Sandbox you go. I was a Avid player of Face of Mankind. If it was on the market, Another player made it. So in order to get that item i need to pay that player, Now that player has Cost + Profit back. which he can either spend or make more items out of. FoM Also had a set amount of money floating in the game, So taxes were added to Cost which would go to whoever owned the land you were making the trade on. Also if you went and mined on their land (this being a function that was automated, Being a Sci Fi game no one uses a pick anymore) There would be extra costs dictated by that faction.
There would also be multiple different planets you can get those resources from. So that you needed to shop around to make sure you were getting the most bang for your buck.
Thus when you go deep into Sandbox you see how the math starts changing. instead of "i spent time mining tin Lodes to make Tin armor" your get
I currently have a mining operation on 3 seperate planets to bring the materials i need in order to earn the materials to make this assult Rifle. If they dont sell im still at a loss because i cant get my money back.
Then again, i havent seen a game nearly as complex as Face of Mankind in a long time.
Themepark: enter castle, kill dragon, rescue princess.
Sandbox: take over the castle, kill princess, rape dragon. OR enter castle, kill and rape princess, rscue dragon. Or burn the castle down with princess an dragon. Or enter castle, force dragon to rape princess. Or princess to rape dragon.
Originally posted by Robokapp Themepark: enter castle, kill dragon, rescue princess. Sandbox: take over the castle, kill princess, rape dragon. OR enter castle, kill and rape princess, rscue dragon. Or burn the castle down with princess an dragon. Or enter castle, force dragon to rape princess. Or princess to rape dragon.
Ya know, I'm not a sandbox guy, but after reading your description, I'm changing sides. All of those scenarios sound.....intriguing.
I don't know what sandboxes you've been playing, and honestly, I'd rather just not know.
What game did I miss?
...then Jessica Alba is my grandma
Originally posted by Loktofeit Originally posted by Dauntis I don't see why people say a "Hybrid" is impossible.
While I doubt he is referring to me I have made that claim.
I don't feel a hybrid themepark/sandbox is possible just as I don't feel a hybrid amusement park/roller coaster is possible.
amusement parks may or may not have roller coasters. putting a roller coaster in an amusement park does not make it a hybrid amusement park/roller coaster, it only makes it an amusement park with a roller coaster.
I feel a sandbox MMO could theoretically contain all the content of say, World of Warcraft, while still offering its sandbox style of nonlinear gameplay and player created content. Much like how SWG, EVE, and some others offered questing, dungeons, and sometimes raids and battleground style pvp. Adding fun things to do in a sandbox style game doesn't make them any less of a sandbox or any sort of hybrid in my personal opinion.
ok so let see in theroy free realm si shte in fact a sandbox...it has a huge explorable world and player housing
but it's a theme park because it has quests and a tab targeting instance and sometimes overworld combat system.
wow is a walled instanced world with tabbed targeted sometimes overworld sometimes instanced combat.
it has now player housing and the closest thing it has to a sandbox feature is a farmville style of farming?
no offense but this is such a bating post i question why it wasn't locked
so say we all