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When did it become OK to charge $30 - $50 for a month of premium in F2P?

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  • zymurgeistzymurgeist Pittsville, VAPosts: 5,211Member Uncommon
    I think all the " you don't need to pay that much" posts miss the point. Of course you don't need to pay anything at all. What staggers my imagination is how is even possible to pay that much? At some point don't these companies say "Ok this is just too outrageous?" It's like the joke about selling pencils (or whatever)  for a million dollars each because you only need to sell one.

    "Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause" ~Victor Hugo

  • FromHellFromHell NY, NYPosts: 1,311Member

    say thanks to the "I'll play it when it goes f2p" folks.

    Ya know, those jerks who think when a businessmodel name contains "free" it actually means.. not paying anything

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  • Sogi-YaSogi-Ya albuquerque, NMPosts: 53Member

    quality lies with the design, not the pricing structure; there are plenty of P2P games that are total shit from day one.

    games that were developed to be F2P from the ground up are typically exceptional titles. granted that they tend to be smaller titles with a heavier slant on PVP to fill in the gaps, but they are still generally worth playing and (IMO) are a little more rewarding due to their quick progression.

    it's all in how you look at it: F2P monetizes things that P2P gives out for free, but progression in such games is usually MUCH faster, with higher rewards for your effort VS P2P progression rates. P2P gives you everything for free, but typically makes the requirements for said items unbelievably time consuming. When it comes down to it, $50 for a high level mount may actually be more affordable than the cost in sub fees it will take you to get to the point you can actually access the comparable content.

    the worst ones (which happen to most of the early F2P conversions, and the root cause for the stigma against F2P) are the ones that were designed with P2P progression rates, then converted to F2P; resulting in games that progress at the P2P snail's pace, but still make you pay for notable items in a cash shop.

  • Sogi-YaSogi-Ya albuquerque, NMPosts: 53Member
    Originally posted by zymurgeist
    I think all the " you don't need to pay that much" posts miss the point. Of course you don't need to pay anything at all. What staggers my imagination is how is even possible to pay that much? At some point don't these companies say "Ok this is just too outrageous?" It's like the joke about selling pencils (or whatever)  for a million dollars each because you only need to sell one.

    yeah, and it's biting them in the ass now: notice how few new F2P localizations have come out this year VS last?

    there is still just as many upcoming MMO's in Korea that could be localized, but western F2P localizers have poached off too many "Whales" and the return just aren't what they used to be.

  • thinktank001thinktank001 oasisPosts: 2,027Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    That is really all irelevant though.  The topic is why the sub is so expensive and how that is't fair.  How is the expensive sub not fair?  The OP doesn't have to pay it, but wants the advantage of the status.  It seems a fairly ridiculous complaint.

     

    OP wants to know why P2W games charge more than sub prices for the same gaming experience.  I didn't see him/her asking for the same gaming experience for free.  

     

    I don't find the OP's logic to be to out of line.  Everyone that has played a sub based game doesn't expect to ever pay more than $15.00 month for entire access to a game.  

  • ZekiahZekiah Aurora, COPosts: 2,499Member
    Originally posted by zymurgeist
    At some point don't these companies say "Ok this is just too outrageous?"

    A corporate board room with a conscience? I think not.

    Their goal is to bleed customers (us) out of every stinkin' cent they can get away with. Consider what might happen to board room members that question the greed machine with terms like "outrageous" and you'll have your answer.

    "Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky

  • niceguy3978niceguy3978 Gainesville, FLPosts: 2,000Member
    Originally posted by Sogi-Ya

    I'm seeing F2P game after F2P game price gouge the fuck out of "premium services" and "boosters," sometimes for double or tripple the cost of what it would take for a monthly subscription to a P2P game .... when did this becoime ok to do?

     

    I guess this is the victory lap F2P beating P2P or something: now that F2P has is clearly winning the battle VS P2P it dosen't have to keep competitive on comparable subscriptions pricing.

     

    [mod edit]: the whole reason F2P took off was because it was more accessible and affordable than P2P, shit gets too bad people will just shift back in the other direction ... espacally if going B2P works out for TSW and western P2P holdouts realise that there are other options to stay competitive.

    It's always been "ok" to do.  If not enough people pay that price, they will either lower it or go out of business.  Why shouldn't they charge what people are willing to pay?  This is why I don't buy Apple products.  When did it become ok to charge 1000.00 for 300.00 worth of parts?

  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,643Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sogi-Ya

    I'm seeing F2P game after F2P game price gouge the fuck out of "premium services" and "boosters," sometimes for double or tripple the cost of what it would take for a monthly subscription to a P2P game .... when did this becoime ok to do?

     

    I guess this is the victory lap F2P beating P2P or something: now that F2P has is clearly winning the battle VS P2P it dosen't have to keep competitive on comparable subscriptions pricing.

     

    [mod edit]: the whole reason F2P took off was because it was more accessible and affordable than P2P, shit gets too bad people will just shift back in the other direction ... espacally if going B2P works out for TSW and western P2P holdouts realise that there are other options to stay competitive.

     

    The frogs have been slow boiled and are still sitting in the pan.

    It became ok when the buying public said it was ok, and argued on the forums and whatever to try and convince others it was also ok in order to validate their state of mind.

    The carpet bagging of the games industry... at least you get to say you was here.

  • thinktank001thinktank001 oasisPosts: 2,027Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sogi-Ya

    quality lies with the design, not the pricing structure; there are plenty of P2P games that are total shit from day one.

    games that were developed to be F2P from the ground up are typically exceptional titles. granted that they tend to be smaller titles with a heavier slant on PVP to fill in the gaps, but they are still generally worth playing and (IMO) are a little more rewarding due to their quick progression.

    it's all in how you look at it: F2P monetizes things that P2P gives out for free, but progression in such games is usually MUCH faster, with higher rewards for your effort VS P2P progression rates. P2P gives you everything for free, but typically makes the requirements for said items unbelievably time consuming. When it comes down to it, $50 for a high level mount may actually be more affordable than the cost in sub fees it will take you to get to the point you can actually access the comparable content.

    the worst ones (which happen to most of the early F2P conversions, and the root cause for the stigma against F2P) are the ones that were designed with P2P progression rates, then converted to F2P; resulting in games that progress at the P2P snail's pace, but still make you pay for notable items in a cash shop.

    Your statements are BS.  The fundamental design of P2W games is based on monetization.  Without this core design these companies don't make money, and the tradeoff for this design phliosphy is quality. 

     

    Your progression rate statements are ridiculous.  The core design of the cash shop model is to throw in hurdles so people purchase the advancement (item).   It is there to encourage you to purchase items.   Why would they make things easier so you would be less inclined to purchase?

     

         

     

     

  • Br3akingDawnBr3akingDawn a City, CAPosts: 1,357Member Uncommon
    It's not ok. But if you cant afford it then dont pay it and dont play it. Don't be a sucker and still give in to these type of high cost F2P games or any kind for this matter. If the dumb world doesnt play by these greedy companies rules, then there wouldn't be this sorta method. Too bad people are born to be suckers.

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  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,643Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sogi-Ya
    Originally posted by zymurgeist
    I think all the " you don't need to pay that much" posts miss the point. Of course you don't need to pay anything at all. What staggers my imagination is how is even possible to pay that much? At some point don't these companies say "Ok this is just too outrageous?" It's like the joke about selling pencils (or whatever)  for a million dollars each because you only need to sell one.

    yeah, and it's biting them in the ass now: notice how few new F2P localizations have come out this year VS last?

    there is still just as many upcoming MMO's in Korea that could be localized, but western F2P localizers have poached off too many "Whales" and the return just aren't what they used to be.

     

    Which would suggest that the actual paying customer base for F2P games is finite in the West and may well have peaked (and now be looking only at shrinking at the bubble bursts under the weight of education, buyer remorse, and other elements).

    I wonder seriously if 2012/ 2013 will be remembered as the dark days of cash shop that we all look back at and think, ' how the fuck did anyone actually fall for that shit?'.

  • MyriaMyria Lowell, MAPosts: 570Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    You're really going to pitch that level of choice as a bad thing or as price gouging? Some of you will go to some serious lengths to hate on F2P.

    This is what I love about MMORPG. I didn't "pitch" anything, nor did I say jack squat about the OP, nor did I say diddly about liking or hating F2P. I answered a question -- simply, accurately, and inarguably.

    Someone wanted to know what MMO has a premium sub over $20 and FE, whether you think it makes F2P look bad or not, does.

    Whether there are other levels is irrelevant to the original question.

  • niceguy3978niceguy3978 Gainesville, FLPosts: 2,000Member
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by Sogi-Ya
    Originally posted by zymurgeist
    I think all the " you don't need to pay that much" posts miss the point. Of course you don't need to pay anything at all. What staggers my imagination is how is even possible to pay that much? At some point don't these companies say "Ok this is just too outrageous?" It's like the joke about selling pencils (or whatever)  for a million dollars each because you only need to sell one.

    yeah, and it's biting them in the ass now: notice how few new F2P localizations have come out this year VS last?

    there is still just as many upcoming MMO's in Korea that could be localized, but western F2P localizers have poached off too many "Whales" and the return just aren't what they used to be.

     

    Which would suggest that the actual paying customer base for F2P games is finite in the West and may well have peaked (and now be looking only at shrinking at the bubble bursts under the weight of education, buyer remorse, and other elements).

    I wonder seriously if 2012/ 2013 will be remembered as the dark days of cash shop that we all look back at and think, ' how the fuck did anyone actually fall for that shit?'.

    I think it has more to do with the number of western games going f2p and saturating the market to the point were it is no longer as enticing for publishers to localize eastern games.  The customer base for everything is finite.

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,204Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by Sogi-Ya
    Originally posted by zymurgeist
    I think all the " you don't need to pay that much" posts miss the point. Of course you don't need to pay anything at all. What staggers my imagination is how is even possible to pay that much? At some point don't these companies say "Ok this is just too outrageous?" It's like the joke about selling pencils (or whatever)  for a million dollars each because you only need to sell one.

    yeah, and it's biting them in the ass now: notice how few new F2P localizations have come out this year VS last?

    there is still just as many upcoming MMO's in Korea that could be localized, but western F2P localizers have poached off too many "Whales" and the return just aren't what they used to be.

    Which would suggest that the actual paying customer base for F2P games is finite in the West and may well have peaked (and now be looking only at shrinking at the bubble bursts under the weight of education, buyer remorse, and other elements).

    I wonder seriously if 2012/ 2013 will be remembered as the dark days of cash shop that we all look back at and think, ' how the fuck did anyone actually fall for that shit?'.

    To me it says there is better competition and they don't need to go through hte hassle and expense of localization.

    I think the next few years are when people will remember back when we all used to pay tons for subscriptions and think how the hell did we duped into throwing away that much money away.

  • SpectralHunterSpectralHunter So CalPosts: 386Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    To me it says there is better competition and they don't need to go through hte hassle and expense of localization.

    I think the next few years are when people will remember back when we all used to pay tons for subscriptions and think how the hell did we duped into throwing away that much money away.

    You know, I'm not sure why you think this.  Once everything goes a la carte, prices will go up.  Right now F2P can save some money for some people but once things get stablized and the market gets defined more, you will end up paying more in the long run.  Companies don't create revenue models that generate less money.

    What you are counting on is volume, meaning if there's a huge population of players, it only takes a small percentage to pay high fees to make companies happy.  Problem is, they are never happy.  They will find a way to increase the percentage of players spending money and how much. 

    I expect sub rates to go up too.  The only reason they haven't gone up is because of cash shops + subs.

  • ice-vortexice-vortex Xenia, OHPosts: 951Member
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by Sogi-Ya
    Originally posted by zymurgeist
    I think all the " you don't need to pay that much" posts miss the point. Of course you don't need to pay anything at all. What staggers my imagination is how is even possible to pay that much? At some point don't these companies say "Ok this is just too outrageous?" It's like the joke about selling pencils (or whatever)  for a million dollars each because you only need to sell one.

    yeah, and it's biting them in the ass now: notice how few new F2P localizations have come out this year VS last?

    there is still just as many upcoming MMO's in Korea that could be localized, but western F2P localizers have poached off too many "Whales" and the return just aren't what they used to be.

    Which would suggest that the actual paying customer base for F2P games is finite in the West and may well have peaked (and now be looking only at shrinking at the bubble bursts under the weight of education, buyer remorse, and other elements).

    I wonder seriously if 2012/ 2013 will be remembered as the dark days of cash shop that we all look back at and think, ' how the fuck did anyone actually fall for that shit?'.

    To me it says there is better competition and they don't need to go through hte hassle and expense of localization.

    I think the next few years are when people will remember back when we all used to pay tons for subscriptions and think how the hell did we duped into throwing away that much money away.

     

    The F2P games that come out of Asia are more likely to be p2w as well and the market for that has dried up consiberably.

  • thinktank001thinktank001 oasisPosts: 2,027Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SpectralHunter

     

    I expect sub rates to go up too.  The only reason they haven't gone up is because of cash shops + subs.

     

    In a free market that would be the case, but the only reason sub prices haven't increased is because WOW hasn't raised their price.  

  • AethaerynAethaeryn Kitchener, ONPosts: 1,973Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Myria
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    Which MMOs charge more than $20 for premium monthly service?

    Fallen Earth's "Commander" monthly is $29.99/mo.

    As one option that only gets you an "aura" that buffs others in your group.  It is one choice.

    Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!

  • shinkanshinkan BestinPosts: 229Member

    It's no secret that someone has to pay for the "F2P", its not the rec cross or salvation army we're talking about. but this is what many people wanted and now they got it. The cost of these game to fully enjoy them now is just much more distorted and the real cost can easily be more "hidden".

    Its really like with all those low cost / cheap airlines, they have lots of hidden away costs, that make it much harder to calculate the real cost of the product you want/need (seat reservation, extra luggage, etc).

    Blame the I want everything for free generation

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by bansan

    It became ok when people (aka idiots) started paying those prices.

    So...1994 then. "Platinum" sub for fifty per. Of course, that was positively a relief after paying $12 per hour back in the GEnie days.

    No point, except today's players seem to react always with astonishment when reminded that not everyone's entertainment budget is limited. There's nothing new under the sun, particularly not 'premium' access services. It's worth...what it's worth to a given individual. Neither more or less.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • TheHavokTheHavok San Jose, CAPosts: 2,398Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by thinktank001
    Originally posted by Sogi-Ya

    quality lies with the design, not the pricing structure; there are plenty of P2P games that are total shit from day one.

    games that were developed to be F2P from the ground up are typically exceptional titles. granted that they tend to be smaller titles with a heavier slant on PVP to fill in the gaps, but they are still generally worth playing and (IMO) are a little more rewarding due to their quick progression.

    it's all in how you look at it: F2P monetizes things that P2P gives out for free, but progression in such games is usually MUCH faster, with higher rewards for your effort VS P2P progression rates. P2P gives you everything for free, but typically makes the requirements for said items unbelievably time consuming. When it comes down to it, $50 for a high level mount may actually be more affordable than the cost in sub fees it will take you to get to the point you can actually access the comparable content.

    the worst ones (which happen to most of the early F2P conversions, and the root cause for the stigma against F2P) are the ones that were designed with P2P progression rates, then converted to F2P; resulting in games that progress at the P2P snail's pace, but still make you pay for notable items in a cash shop.

    Your statements are BS.  The fundamental design of P2W games is based on monetization.  Without this core design these companies don't make money, and the tradeoff for this design phliosphy is quality. 

     

    Your progression rate statements are ridiculous.  The core design of the cash shop model is to throw in hurdles so people purchase the advancement (item).   It is there to encourage you to purchase items.   Why would they make things easier so you would be less inclined to purchase?

     

         

     

     

    Well, you need to understand that not every Free to Play game is Pay to Win.  League of legends is a pretty good example of this where you are only paying to speed up something that would otherwise take time to level up and unlock the important things like runes.

    I think Sogi's assessment is pretty much spot on, except this part: games that were developed to be F2P from the ground up are typically exceptional titles.

    There are a LOT of free to play games designed to be free to play from the ground up - they mostly come from asian, specifically Korea.  And they are shit.  Complete, utter, shit.  But, the market is becoming so saturated with free to play titles that gamers now have more options and no longer have to settle with the shittiest of shitty free to play titles.

  • WraithoneWraithone Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 3,592Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Zekiah
    Originally posted by zymurgeist
    At some point don't these companies say "Ok this is just too outrageous?"

    A corporate board room with a conscience? I think not.

    Their goal is to bleed customers (us) out of every stinkin' cent they can get away with. Consider what might happen to board room members that question the greed machine with terms like "outrageous" and you'll have your answer.

     

    Its their duty to their share holders to make the best ROI that they can.  If they over do it, then they lose out on the mid to long term profits to be had.  Unfortunately, all too many suits think only in terms of this quarter.  Thats how various shit happens.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Zekiah
    Originally posted by zymurgeist
    At some point don't these companies say "Ok this is just too outrageous?"

    A corporate board room with a conscience? I think not.

    Their goal is to bleed customers (us) out of every stinkin' cent they can get away with. Consider what might happen to board room members that question the greed machine with terms like "outrageous" and you'll have your answer.

    Greed is good. To get customers money, they need to provide something that is fun .. and competition compete down teh prices.

    I don't need devs to be saints. I only need them to provide a fun entertainment product, preferably at low prices, and F2P fits that bill perfectly. .

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,204Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by bansan

    It became ok when people (aka idiots) started paying those prices.

    So...1994 then. "Platinum" sub for fifty per. Of course, that was positively a relief after paying $12 per hour back in the GEnie days.

    No point, except today's players seem to react always with astonishment when reminded that not everyone's entertainment budget is limited. There's nothing new under the sun, particularly not 'premium' access services. It's worth...what it's worth to a given individual. Neither more or less.

    This is really well said.  I remember how Prodigy used to charge too. 

    If there was a like button I might post less and click more.  No point with that either, but I would rather have just clicked that I liked your comment than wasting a bunch of space with my blather.

  • worldalphaworldalpha Milton, ONPosts: 403Member
    Our approach is to make everything affordable to get as many paying customers as possible.

    Thanks,
    Mike
    Working on Social Strategy MMORTS (now Launched!) http://www.worldalpha.com

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