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I don't understand the general consensus on this forum...

2

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  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,058Member Uncommon

    Welcome to MMORPGSANDBOX.com

     

    As sickening as the love for all things sandbox is here, the hate for anything different from WoW themepark is even worse.  Things like GW2 and ESO are huge setbacks to the genre according to the folks here.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • niceguy3978niceguy3978 Gainesville, FLPosts: 2,000Member
    Originally posted by Sukiyaki

    Sure, its wasn't the countless delusional, clueless and rabid WoW fanbois and MMORPG virgins, who started and keep calling every 3D MMORPG released since ~1995 a "WoW clone".

    Its the WoW haters trying to "brand" WoW as a bad game comparing it to "bad and failed games"...

     

     

    Also "general concensus on this forum"

    Someone needs to lay off the kool-aid.

    It may have started out that way, I honestly don't know for sure.  The first game I remember being called a WoW clone was LOTRO and I couldn't tell you if it was WoW fans saying this or not.  Today, however, it seems to be primarily sandbox fans calling everything that isn't a sandbox a WoW clone.  This could just be an evolution of the term though.

  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Boca Raton, FLPosts: 867Member Uncommon

    World of Warcraft is an excellent game built on highly innovative principles that draws from a healthy trove of backlore stretching all the way back to 1994.  I played it for 3 months circa spring 2005.  It was not my first MMORPG.  Vendetta Online was my first, unless you count MUDs, in which case it would be Avatar MUD.

    Certain key things in the WoW basic gameplay structure eventually turned me off, but that's not really important, and it's not what this thread is about.  What I think this thread is about is the WoW clones... developers and game studios who took it for granted that in order to be successful one must copy certain aspects of WoW gameplay, right down to the UI.  I watched dozens spring up over the years with some amusement.  I think what made WoW so succesful was not the elements which other game companies sometimes unabashedly tried to copy, but the process of world building that went into the game in the first place.

    Every so often an indie dev group comes along and tries something new and unique, however it tends to get lost under the shadow of the elephant in the room: WoW.  To give you an idea of what I'm talking about, let's look at some Google trends; here is the game I am most interested in and that I think gets it Right.  Here is that game compared to what most people think of when you say the words "internet spaceships".  Here are both of those games compared to WoW.

    ...so now, why am I a part of this site?

    "To be what you are not, experience what you are not." -Saint John of the Cross
    Authored 110 missions in Vendetta Online
    Check it out on Steam

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 20,008Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by kartool

    Originally posted by skeaser
    Originally posted by grimfall
    It should be pointed out that everyone pretty much admits that Rift was a WoW clone.  A well done one with some interesting features, but even it's fans understand that.

    Rift is not the first either. For the AAA games of the top of my head:

    AoC: WoW with "mature" setting and action-esque combat

    Rift: WoW with dynamic events

    Aion: WoW with wings

    SWTOR: WoW with lightsabers

    WAR: WoW with moar PvP

    etc. etc.

    The problem is that when a game tries to step outside the WoW zone like TSW or FFXIV did, they fail. Now, neither of these games failed because they weren't WoW clones, they failed because they didn't deliver entertainment. The problem is that other publishers see this and start to think straying away from the WoW formula is too risky. 

    Please enlighten me and tell me how TSW failed? 

     

    Perhaps you should go back and reread the Devs report back to the shareholders that not only did TSW fail to come close to the high end sales projections, it missed the worst case estimates by a considerable margin as well. If you need another clue, look how fast it moved to F2P, almost record time for a AAA MMO title.

    As for the OP, WOW is just the 800 pound gorilla in the room and it's influence has been felt in far too many other titles that followed after it, at least in the opinion of many posters on this forum. If you're still having fun playing WOW, GAME ON I say.

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • grimfallgrimfall Missouri City, TXPosts: 1,155Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by kartool
    Originally posted by skeaser
    Originally posted by grimfall
    It should be pointed out that everyone pretty much admits that Rift was a WoW clone.  A well done one with some interesting features, but even it's fans understand that.

    Rift is not the first either. For the AAA games of the top of my head:

    AoC: WoW with "mature" setting and action-esque combat

    Rift: WoW with dynamic events

    Aion: WoW with wings

    SWTOR: WoW with lightsabers

    WAR: WoW with moar PvP

    etc. etc.

    The problem is that when a game tries to step outside the WoW zone like TSW or FFXIV did, they fail. Now, neither of these games failed because they weren't WoW clones, they failed because they didn't deliver entertainment. The problem is that other publishers see this and start to think straying away from the WoW formula is too risky. 

    Please enlighten me and tell me how TSW failed? 

    You missed the LOTR sig, too.

  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,058Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by skeaser
    Originally posted by grimfall
    It should be pointed out that everyone pretty much admits that Rift was a WoW clone.  A well done one with some interesting features, but even it's fans understand that.

    Rift is not the first either. For the AAA games of the top of my head:

    AoC: WoW with "mature" setting and action-esque combat

    Rift: WoW with dynamic events

    Aion: WoW with wings

    SWTOR: WoW with lightsabers

    WAR: WoW with moar PvP

    etc. etc.

    The problem is that when a game tries to step outside the WoW zone like TSW or FFXIV did, they fail. Now, neither of these games failed because they weren't WoW clones, they failed because they didn't deliver entertainment. The problem is that other publishers see this and start to think straying away from the WoW formula is too risky. 

    Reason why TSW failed was because it's character combat and animations were poorly done and the endgame was EXACTLY like WoW.  Seeing as endgame is the most prevelant stage of a characters life you would think they would innovate it the most.  FFXIV failed because the game was horrible and buggy.

     

    GW2 stepped out of the WoW model and next year we have games like Neverwinter and ESO to carry on the non-WoW like model.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • ste2000ste2000 londonPosts: 4,706Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by rikarus92

    It seems like no matter what thread you pick, no matter what the topic is, there's atleast 2 people saying how much WoW sucks, or when someone says "This game looks alright.", someone says "It looks like a game for WoW players!"

     

    It's almost become a derogatory term, as if playing Rift or SWTOR (two games eerily similar to WoW that noone likes to admit) makes you a better person or something. Its like WoW is a scapegoat in place of someone saying "a bad game" they say "WoW-clone".

    I doubt you are a MMO vet as you claim, or read this forums often.

    If you do you'd know that generally players admit that WOW is a good game.

    Personally I played WoW 3 years, it is not my favorite MMO but definetly it is one of the best.

    Having said that when people mention it in their post in a derogatory way, they are actually making it a compliment.

    What people say basically is that if people want to play a game similar to WoW they'd play the original because it is already perfect as it is.

    What we are saying is that developers should stop doing WOW clones because the best WOW is already out and very successful, there is no need for another one.

    WOW indirectly is killing the MMO genre and that's why people are angry, it is not Blizzard fault, it is other developers fault that cannot make anything original.

    So when players give a game the "WOW clone" denomination, it is another way to boycott a game that hopes to be a success on the back of Blizzard game

    Nothing against WOW, but everything against those uninspired developers who don't have the balls to make something on their own.

     

    PS: The only negative feedback I have against WOW is the Community, the worst in the game industry.

    If it wasn't for the Community I would still play the damn game.

  • IIIcurrierIIIcurrier Kalispell, MTPosts: 88Member
    Originally posted by rikarus92

    It seems like no matter what thread you pick, no matter what the topic is, there's atleast 2 people saying how much WoW sucks, or when someone says "This game looks alright.", someone says "It looks like a game for WoW players!"

     

    It's almost become a derogatory term, as if playing Rift or SWTOR (two games eerily similar to WoW that noone likes to admit) makes you a better person or something. Its like WoW is a scapegoat in place of someone saying "a bad game" they say "WoW-clone".

     

    Now, I won't butter it up, i've been playing MMO's since a little ways after Ultima Online launched, and quite honestly, until somebody does something drastically different that changes the industry, I'm going to keep playing WoW. Nobody in the last 5 or so years has done anything dramatically different, it's still all the same formula. Regardless of whether WoW is the "bandwagon" game according to many of you, you really can't argue it's overall scope crushes 90% of the MMO's out there. Some of these MMO's i see getting released have a level cap at 40, 8 or 9 zones, Warrior, Thief, Mage, Cleric as their only classes and no other even close to redeeming features, yet even then people will play these games over WoW. 

     

    You can all tell me how I'm less of a gamer for playing it now if you like, just giving my two cents.

    Until there is Asheron's Call/Wurm with an innovative and world changing options to quests like Fable/Witcher/recent Bethesda quests ( though that's about all they did right ).

    Character building, terrain forming, realistic lands and multi-way quest lines.

    Add in that I can control the game with my mind, and maybe CCP's carbon engine + Euclideon's engine , and I'll pay for it.

     

    Turbines AC2 is a perfect example of what is going wrong in the community, so is EQ2. I don't know why it's exactly happening but I think its the mass intake of players who play the game for the name, instead of a community playing a game because it is awesome, games used to consist of people who like Medival reinacting or writing/reading fantasy, SF, now that populations is very very small, and they cannot exert enough man power to get games changed in a positive way.

  • redcappredcapp brook, NYPosts: 722Member

    I can only speak for myself here, but my problem with WoW is that it brought the 'themepark' style MMO to mainstream.  Nothing wrong with that, and I'm glad many people enjoy the game and others like it.

     

    What I was *hoping* the genre would do is evolve the ideas that UO was founded upon.  So, it's not that WoW is bad, it's just that I personally want something else. 

     

    Now, WoW clones on the other hand.. are a problem, IMO.  None of them are actually as good as WoW, but they're (mostly) all that is being produced on a large scale because people want to mimic WoW's success.  So I'm just waiting for something else. 

  • MarirranyaMarirranya Ortario, OHPosts: 154Member
    i loved wow - played it for nearly 5 years :3

    There are people who play games and then there are gamers.

    http://alzplz.blogspot.com

  • GruntyGrunty TexasPosts: 7,063Member Uncommon
    There are over 300 games listed on this site. You don't understand the general consensus here because there isn't one to be understood.
  • ignore_meignore_me Apple Valley, CAPosts: 1,987Member
    I hate WoW because I view it as a destructive force in game design. I don't care that it brought a lot of people to the genre. You can put me on the list of anti-WoW guys. Having said that, if anyone enjoys the game I don't begrudge them that or think less of them.

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  • AdamantineAdamantine NowherePosts: 3,514Member Common

    I dont understand the OPs definition of "general consensus".

    Just because every thread has some people doing some things doesnt mean its general consensus.

     

  • allendale5allendale5 kansas city, MOPosts: 124Member

    People can say what they want in their responses to this thread but the truth is that when most forum posters use the term 'WoW clone' or some other derivitive, they do mean it to be negative.  If you go and read those references, you will see that nearly all of them connote a negative meaning as their primary point.  

    I think that we are just tired of playing the same game over and over; but that there is nothing wrong with this feeling.  We get excited of some new game and then find out it is essentially the same game with different maps and different names for the same damn stuff.  

    The odd part is that when a game does stray from the basic WoW formula, it is severely ridiculed; and the player base usually starts demanding patches that bring it back in line with that with which they are familiar : WoW.  

  • morbuskabismorbuskabis RodonPosts: 290Member


    Originally posted by skeaser
    Originally posted by grimfall It should be pointed out that everyone pretty much admits that Rift was a WoW clone.  A well done one with some interesting features, but even it's fans understand that.
    Rift is not the first either. For the AAA games of the top of my head:

    AoC: WoW with "mature" setting and action-esque combat

    Rift: WoW with dynamic events

    Aion: WoW with wings

    SWTOR: WoW with lightsabers

    WAR: WoW with moar PvP

    etc. etc.

    The problem is that when a game tries to step outside the WoW zone like TSW or FFXIV did, they fail. Now, neither of these games failed because they weren't WoW clones, they failed because they didn't deliver entertainment. The problem is that other publishers see this and start to think straying away from the WoW formula is too risky. 


    But the "WoW Clones" are not successful neither. SWTOR was a disaster. AoC had a rough start, to put it mildly. WAR was no success at all. Out of these above only Rift and Aion were diong OK...

    Dev do see this aswell. There is a reason, why sandbox is the new messiah.

    image -Massive-Industries- Heavy Duty

  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,936Member Uncommon

     

    There is no concensus on this forum.  There are about five relatively solid cliques (FFA PVP, sandbox, modern themepark, old school, and tri-faction RVR) and a bunch of people who simply have their own opinions and don't fit in the cliques.

     

    For me, WoW was a great game in Vanilla and up to about mid-point in BC.  From there, Blizzard took the game in a specific direction and pretty much killed it for me.  MoP was the first expansion that I didn't buy.

     


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
  • rikarus92rikarus92 Gilbert, AZPosts: 15Member
    Oh my gosh! Thankyou for all your replies folks, I'm glad to read some of your opinions on this stuff. It took me a while to get back to this thread because somehow I lost it in my bookmarks and forgot about it. I'm surprised to tell you the truth at the maturity of this conversation. I was expecting a lot more.....flaming. I guess I really shouldn't have made this post with that expectation to begin with, but I am pleasantly surprised. Thankyou for enlightening me with all of your opinions/experiences. :)
  • FromHellFromHell NY, NYPosts: 1,311Member

    - Cloning is bad, that doesn´t mean the original is bad.

    - the market does not need dozens and dozens of clones of each other with different textures

    - people are sick playing the same reskinned game mechanics since over a decade

    Secrets of Dragon?s Spine Trailer.. ! :D
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwT9cFVQCMw

    Best MMOs ever played: Ultima, EvE, SW Galaxies, Age of Conan, The Secret World
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2X_SbZCHpc&t=21s
    .


    .
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  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Elmira, ONPosts: 2,499Member Uncommon

    I don't think that the problem is WoW itself, I think that the problem is the people who play WoW, IMO. I've played every WoW expansion, I've got 4 players at level 90, but I'm not currently playing. I just grow tired of listening to the people in the game. If you step into any other MMO, almost litereally any other MMO, and you'll see a eerily different general chat. Also, when you start doing dungeons and stuff, it's a lot more laid back. More fun in spite of being a game that isn't as good. 

     

    Oh, and just so that we're clear, I'm not accusing you of being one of "those people" but I'm just sayin' they're out there. If you know what I mean then you're probably not one of the people I'm talking about. 

     

    I think that someone mentioned something about community ruining the game, and I tend to agree. If you ever played Vanilla WoW then you'd know what I mean. 

    Crazkanuk

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  • LugorsLugors EarthPosts: 180Member Uncommon
    These forums fall along the "everyone but WoW" lines.  WoW has a hugely popular and constantly updated site in mmo champion.  No other game has a site that comes close to being as comprehensive or up to date as WoW has with mmo champ.  These forums have become the best external site for many second tier MMOs, and thus those of the anti-WoW crowd tend to come here. 
  • GrootGroot OKC, OKPosts: 87Member

    Remember when 150k subscribers was an insane success for an MMO?  WoW is an anomoly and people don't like to play games that are touted as "failing" because it doesn't have millions of subs.  

     

    WoW was an amazing game when it was released, and it came out at the perfect time with perfect (dumb)luck.  You can't repeat that.  

  • Ice-QueenIce-Queen USA, GAPosts: 2,451Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by skeaser
    From my observations, most of us here are just grumpy because we like MMOs just not any of them that are out now. The hate for WoW comes from WoW being so successful that instead of getting new games devs keep reskinning WoW and reselling it. It's not that WoW is bad, it's that WoW has over-influenced the market.

    Pretty much this.

    WoW was a good game, it just got stale like mmo's get over the years. The hate on WoW is because it's made game company's lazy as well as their devs. They just reskin WoW, and never get creative. Mmo's of today are worse because of WoW. Heck, older mmo's are better than 99% of mmo's that have been released in the past 10 years.

    image

    What happens when you log off your characters????.....
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  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,675Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by rikarus92

    It seems like no matter what thread you pick, no matter what the topic is, there's atleast 2 people saying how much WoW sucks, or when someone says "This game looks alright.", someone says "It looks like a game for WoW players!"

    You're a member of the Sandbox Militia, or The Enemy.

    On weekends we dig trenches and erect razor wire.  You just sort of get used to it, because it's been a daily event for years.

    Past couple of months I've really enjoyed the weekend posts. If nothing else, they're more creative and original at times than the weekday stuff.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,675Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by XAPKen

    There is no concensus on this forum.  There are about five relatively solid cliques (FFA PVP, sandbox, modern themepark, old school, and tri-faction RVR) and a bunch of people who simply have their own opinions and don't fit in the cliques.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • WaterlilyWaterlily parisPosts: 2,973Member Uncommon

    Where do you want me to start ^-^

    Let's see here:

    -WoW was made by EQ players who were drama queens within the community, EQ players from guilds that said EQ sucked because the GoD expansion was too hard and left the game to make money for Blizzard by copying EQ and removing every difficult and community elelment. Telling everyone who they offended in the past, both raiders and casuals how much better their new game was.

    -WoW caused the expansion of casual MMO and MMO have never been the same ever since.

    -WoW is the first experience of most MMO players and they project their playstyle onto other games. Rift and Vanguard forums were ripe with WoW players telling us what a game should or shouldn't look like since they played WoW and anything that diverts from the casual WoW quest hub grind is not ok apparently

    There's many more reasons, once I talk to WoW players it will resurface ~

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