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What happened to classes in games? Formerly: It was never a trinity.

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  • dimnikardimnikar ZanistanvillePosts: 271Member
    Originally posted by timtrack

     

     

     

    Computer manufacturers got lazy!

     

    On a serious note... sometimes i do miss some complexity. But i'm also a bit greatful it's been simplified, because i'd never have enough time to become exceptionally good at something really complex that doesn't earn me money.

    i appreciate your sentiment there, but computers today are actually far MORE complex than they used to be. And if before it was NEARLY impossible to troubleshoot a hardware malfunction of that sort, today it's COMPLETELY impossible.

    So... not a very good comparison.

     

    I do understand not wanting to invest too much time to master a game, even though I disagree with it. I like not being the best in a game. I like having stronger opponents to challenge me.

  • timtracktimtrack StockholmPosts: 416Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by dimnikar
    Originally posted by timtrack

     

     

     

    Computer manufacturers got lazy!

     

    On a serious note... sometimes i do miss some complexity. But i'm also a bit greatful it's been simplified, because i'd never have enough time to become exceptionally good at something really complex that doesn't earn me money.

    i appreciate your sentiment there, but computers today are actually far MORE complex than they used to be. And if before it was NEARLY impossible to troubleshoot a hardware malfunction of that sort, today it's COMPLETELY impossible.

    So... not a very good comparison.

     

    I do understand not wanting to invest too much time to master a game, even though I disagree with it. I like not being the best in a game. I like having stronger opponents to challenge me.

    Just as classes today are far more complex since they incorporate multiple roles. I don't see being a pure buffer as more complex as being a tank/buffer/debuffer/puller. Yes, the complexity of the group composition is simplified to allow for easier access to content per player. One of the big reasons for this is probably because PvP now seems to be a mandatory thing to have in an MMO. Imagine being a pure buffer, or a puller, in PvP. It doesn't work very well. And with the current popularity of MMO's and the fact that most people want to pwn face, people playing those classes would be extremely rare. It works in an old-school pure RPG experience with less emphasis on downing health-pools. But even then, higher DPS is often a prefered choice due to simple math, more damage = faster kill.

     

    But lets say we still do it, we have these classes in a game, that means that every encounter would have to make them mandatory. Like, you can't survive a boss without this specific buff from the buffer class. That would cause problems because you would spend 3 hours looking for a buffer instead of 3 hours playing the game. It's the good old "LF Healer last spot" but much worse and in multiple layers.

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,769Member Uncommon

    Realise you were joking Timtrack. But a modern computer does the same thing a valve computer did but more quickly. Modern MMO's do not do that, they are a differant type of MMO.

    Not trying to bash modern MMO's here, just pointing out that appealing to a wider solo playing demographic was why you see so many of the changes talked about on this thread. I like solo games myself, I would just prefer MMO's to emphasise the massive, the multiplayer, the RPG. That way we have two styles of game, not one.

  • ThaneThane berlinPosts: 2,232Member Uncommon
    yea it was so much better to have buff bots standing around just for the reason of buffing. i totally see why you miss that ^^

    "I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member

    People started complaining that it was hard to get an optimal group, so they dumbed it down.

    Back in old school EQ2 you simply wouldnt do many of the harder dungeons if you didnt have both a Bard and Enchanter, they made that much of a difference. But that was 2 out of 12 archtypes that were absolutely required. Then you needed 1 tank, out of 6 options, and 1 healer, out of 6 options. The other 2 spots in the group were just dps fillers.

    I do like the idea of support roles, but they need to balance out the number of classes. Dont have tanks taking up 1/4 of the class options, when they only take up 1 spot in a group of 6.

    I think Vanguard has a pretty good balance of classes, and original EQ. Hopefully more games look to those for ideas in the future.

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    It is a common misconception to think that something complicated is also deep. From what I've seen however, often the opposite is true.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • tupodawg999tupodawg999 LondonPosts: 724Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Rydeson

         Tupo..  Interesting suggestion, but I would like to offer something else..   Instead of having classes defined as "group, hybrid and solo"..  Give every class "group, hybrid and solo" skills..  This means that for example sake that each class will have 60% solo skills, 30% hybrid skills and 10% class defining group skills..  When you do this anyone can play any class they desire with no penality in solo'ing solo content..  This will require that the world have both both solo and group content..  Using EQ as my example, 95% of the roaming zone mobs will be soloable by any class.. However, once you come across a named mob or camp, this is where your class defining group skills come alive such as Mezing, Pulling, Rezing, CC'ing and Healing.  Hybrid skills would be watered down version of the unique group skills..

         I only offer this suggestion because I hate to have to switch toons back and forth based upon my desire to solo or group mobs.. Especially in a moments notice..

     

    Instead of trying to balance classes i think the aim should be to create classes that suit different player personalities. Some people like levelling through group-fighting and some like soloing and some like both in varying proportions depending on mood. In theory i think this should be easy to do but i think it requires *separate* levelling paths.

    By definition someone who wants to solo can't level up on a path designed for group fights and there's no reason to group on a path designed to be soloed.

    So when i talk about group, hybrid or solo classes it's more about how you design that class' path through the game - like breadcrumbs.

    - a group class would have their gear drop in dungeons and static camps from grouped mobs

    - a solo class would get their gear and class spells/abilites following a unique set of breadcrumbs for that class

    - a hybrid class would have a bit of both

    The main reason i divide them like that is i was thinking if you created a new game with say 6 starting races each with 4 classes then creating 24 unique (and good) solo class paths would be too much work initially and wouldn't provide the grouping option either. So i was thinking designate 2 of each race's classes as group classes and build a shared group levelling path for them as the main spine of the game. Designate one each of the race's classes as the solo class and create 6 unique effectively single player games within the core game for them. The last 6 hybrid classes are hybrid in the sense their path is a mixture of both rather than they are hybrid classes per se - although they likely would be.

     

    ===

    I think a lot of people are missing that this is a logical problem.

    If you have levelling based on solo questing where all the classes follow the same quests then two things logically must happen

    1) The difficulty has to be set for the least soloable class.

    2) The quests can't use unique class abilities e.g. a quest can't *require* climbing and lockpicking if only the rogue class has those abilities.

    If you want to have unique classes with unique abilities then you either need separate solo class paths designed around those unique class abilities or the unique class abilites are only used in groups which has a tendency to lead to endless /LFG problems.

    You could have a unique solo path for each class designed around their unique abilities *and* those abilities would fit into a group role however i think it would both be easier and lead to more replayability if the classes had separate categories.

     

    ===

    All you need to make tanks work in pvp is to make taunt a timed mutual root and forced targeting.

    Group pve fights would be more fun if melee mobs could do it to players too.

     

  • znaiikaznaiika denver, PAPosts: 203Member

    I like how Skyrim did, and it is RPG, you can equip bow and wear light cloth or havy armor, you can craft, make potions and enchant.

    The idea of rollplay is to have freinds group together and have fun playing, never about restrictions of any kind.

    Skyrim let you choose any and all classes, and yet people choose different styles.

    The real problem with MMO is pvpers demand too much, and that break's gameplay for everyone else.

    Better gear  which pvpers demand = easy gameplay against AI, then going on telling how good pvpers are.

    PVPers don't need best gear to fight each other, it makes fights too long against each other, and hard to balance between pve and pvp.

  • PhramePhrame Philadelphia, PAPosts: 29Member
    Originally posted by tupodawg999
    ===

    I think a lot of people are missing that this is a logical problem.

    If you have levelling based on solo questing where all the classes follow the same quests then two things logically must happen

    1) The difficulty has to be set for the least soloable class.

    2) The quests can't use unique class abilities e.g. a quest can't *require* climbing and lockpicking if only the rogue class has those abilities.

    If you want to have unique classes with unique abilities then you either need separate solo class paths designed around those unique class abilities or the unique class abilites are only used in groups which has a tendency to lead to endless /LFG problems.

    You could have a unique solo path for each class designed around their unique abilities *and* those abilities would fit into a group role however i think it would both be easier and lead to more replayability if the classes had separate categories.

    I think using this logic as the basis of class design is the problem, actually. The difficulty of the entire game shouldn't need to be set based on the weakest soloing class. Not everyone and every class needs to be able to do every quest. Adjusting the difficulty of the entire game so that the least soloable class can do everything will make the game pretty bland, IMO. 

     

    You could just have various areas or types of content in the game with differing levels of difficulty: some areas that are easier to solo in but offer fewer rewards, and some areas that are more difficult to solo in but offer better rewards. Put in dungeons, interesting content, etc. in these more difficult areas to lure people in and encourage them to group up and explore those areas.  Have some quests that require teamwork and some that don't. Give unique abilities like lockpicking to multiple classes or specs within classes instead of just one to allow for more flexibility. 

     

    This way, if you want to solo the more difficult content you can play a class/spec that has really strong solo capabilities. Everyone else will still be able to play a good amount of the game solo, or can take on the challenge of trying to solo in the more powerful areas. The idea is that an MMO should always encourage grouping and offer solo content for when people can't group up, but not for the entire game. 

     

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    Originally posted by znaiika

    I like how Skyrim did, and it is RPG, you can equip bow and wear light cloth or havy armor, you can craft, make potions and enchant.

    The idea of rollplay is to have freinds group together and have fun playing, never about restrictions of any kind.

    Skyrim let you choose any and all classes, and yet people choose different styles.

    The real problem with MMO is pvpers demand too much, and that break's gameplay for everyone else.

    Better gear  which pvpers demand = easy gameplay against AI, then going on telling how good pvpers are.

    PVPers don't need best gear to fight each other, it makes fights too long against each other, and hard to balance between pve and pvp.

    Problem here is Skyrim is a single player game.  You are playing in a very controlled world.

     

    I believe a balance can be had between PvP and PvE but it is a tough balance. The reason is some skills used in PvP get OP in PvE - Example 100 blades in GW1. It made warriors pretty hard to kill also made for good farming builds. There needs to be a balance and neither PvPers or PvEers will be happy - that is the key.

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • ClassicstarClassicstar rotjeknorPosts: 2,690Member


    Originally posted by MyTabbycat
    Did the gaming companies get lazy or did the gamers?

    Gamers and devs responed to that trend.

    Asheron's call 2 has it all and with nice graphics a game 2 play AC2 is back with BETA server after 7years!

    MB:MSI Z97XPOWER AC
    CPU:Intell Icore7 4790k
    GPU:MSI 2x AMD 290X
    MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
    PSU:Corsair AX1200i
    OS:Windows 8.1 64bit)not yet sure i upgrade to windows 10 need to know alot more with integrated cloud and other maybe spy stuff)

  • ShorunShorun ViennaPosts: 248Member Uncommon

    Games had way more then a trinity.

    Tank

    Healer

    Mana-feed/Buffer (remember enchanters, they were NOT dps)

    Puller

    Crowd control

    Rezzer (not always the healer)

    Damage dealer (the most unwanted role in many games, now it is the most common filler role)

    Attack Buffer (atk spd or atk output not neccesarily from a dps role)

    There are still games that have this sort of classes, LOTRO for example. They're just not as popular (the most popular ones, e.g. WoW have the trinity)

     

    Want to know why you do not see this as much anymore?

    GAMING COMPANYS GOT LAZY!!!! They started combining this stuff into other roles so they could get away with less classes. You think Guild Wars 2 got rid of healers and tanks to be innovative? LOL! It was lazy. They gave everyone a rez. Gave everyone a heal. Gave everyone the ability to safely pull mobs. Something challenging will come along eventually that will once again REQUIRE such specified teamwork. Until then enjoy easy mode.

    Guild Wars 2 got rid of the tanks and healers because very little people wanted to play them. The game isn't easier because everyone has the ability to heal and to rez, it's just different. GW2 is a game that did the classes right in my opinion.

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member
    Originally posted by HeroEvermore

    Games had way more then a trinity.

    Tank

    Healer

    Mana-feed/Buffer (remember enchanters, they were NOT dps)

    Puller

    Crowd control

    Rezzer (not always the healer)

    Damage dealer (the most unwanted role in many games, now it is the most common filler role)

    Attack Buffer (atk spd or atk output not neccesarily from a dps role)

    Now make me a game! go go go! :P

    I wonder how much the Mana-feed/Buffer, Puller, Crowd control, Rezzer, and Attack Buffer could do outside of a group...

    The problem with Trinity games and more specifically WoW was that they removed the NEED for these roles from their content, not that they didn't have them.

    Used to have Shadow Priests for your mana-feed/Buffer, Hunters for your pullers due to things like Misdirect and Feign (and kiting - anyone remember last boss of UBRS in Vanilla?) Mages were your primary Crowd Control, Druids had the battle rez, and Shaman had a lot of Attack buffer utility with totems and spells like Bloodlust/Heroism.

    And you still need all of these roles in a raid, in a more difficult mode raid for sure, but they gave mulitple classes these abilities so you didn't have to bring the one token player for just that one thing.

    It made it easier for any class to get into groups.

    But at the same time, the mistake they made was that they removed the need for these other roles in small group content (dungeons) so a lot of people forgot about them and forgot how to do them.

    Let me tell you - it's no fun to be brought on a raid just because of the buff you bring, you'll never play a larger role in terms of doing damage or healing or tanking mobs etc. - you are there for that buff and that is it. You are easily replaceable.

    So WoW got it half right by spreading those roles around and trying to make all classes desirable - they just messed up by making 5-man content so easy no one needed things like Crowd Control anymore.

    In fact they tried to change that in Cataclysm especially with Heroics and do you know what happened?

    A virtual shit storm of rage and QQ from players.

    I loved it, as did many of the other vets who were still around.

    But they screwed up again in their design - when you make the content about grinding through an instance as fast as possible to get your badges and daily rewards people will focus 100% on efficiency and speed.

    So the raiders who only ran heroics for the daily Valor reward wanted to get done as fast as possible so they could get back to raiding.

    It's really, really tough to get the design right. Even for the biggest MMO out there.

  • PhramePhrame Philadelphia, PAPosts: 29Member
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by HeroEvermore

    Games had way more then a trinity.

    Tank

    Healer

    Mana-feed/Buffer (remember enchanters, they were NOT dps)

    Puller

    Crowd control

    Rezzer (not always the healer)

    Damage dealer (the most unwanted role in many games, now it is the most common filler role)

    Attack Buffer (atk spd or atk output not neccesarily from a dps role)

    Now make me a game! go go go! :P

    I wonder how much the Mana-feed/Buffer, Puller, Crowd control, Rezzer, and Attack Buffer could do outside of a group...

    You could still have those roles in group play and give them other abilities to use while soloing

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member
    Originally posted by Phrame
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by HeroEvermore

    Games had way more then a trinity.

    Tank

    Healer

    Mana-feed/Buffer (remember enchanters, they were NOT dps)

    Puller

    Crowd control

    Rezzer (not always the healer)

    Damage dealer (the most unwanted role in many games, now it is the most common filler role)

    Attack Buffer (atk spd or atk output not neccesarily from a dps role)

    Now make me a game! go go go! :P

    I wonder how much the Mana-feed/Buffer, Puller, Crowd control, Rezzer, and Attack Buffer could do outside of a group...

    You could still have those roles in group play and give them other abilities to use while soloing

    Which is what games like WoW did. And they gave peopel dual specs (or in the case of Rift like 4.)

  • evilizedevilized columbus, OHPosts: 564Member Uncommon

    **moved to more relevant thread.

     

    As to OP's assertion that EQ didn't have the trinity... EQ invented the trinity as far as MMORPG's go. You had no group without a tank, a healer and dps. You could do fine without support classes if your trinity was good enough but theres no way support classes could ever replace one of the holy 3.

  • KezzadrixKezzadrix Toronto, ONPosts: 90Member
    Originally posted by HeroEvermore

     Want to know why you do not see this as much anymore?

    GAMING COMPANYS GOT LAZY!!!! They started combining this stuff into other roles so they could get away with less classes. You think Guild Wars 2 got rid of healers and tanks to be innovative? LOL! It was lazy. They gave everyone a rez. Gave everyone a heal. Gave everyone the ability to safely pull mobs. Something challenging will come along eventually that will once again REQUIRE such specified teamwork. Until then enjoy easy mode.

     

    I believe the reason games got rid of specialized roles and teamwork is because the majority of players these days don't want it in their games.  Take a look at EverQuest today.  It's population is comprised of boxers and ai mercenaries to group with.  A big change from the game's roots.  It's the same reason games are way too easy and are completed in just weeks of being released.  The truth is that people just don't want to have to rely on other players for anything anymore.  It's too inconvenient.  Classes have merged to allow one player to do everything.  Creature toughness was cut down so that players could solo almost everything, excluding raids, but anything else to reach max level. 

    Is it the gaming companies to blame for these things or is it the gamers today?  It's both.  The companies make games that will attract the largest player base to increase their profits and most players want their games easy enough to solo.

    I look forward to the day when another company has the balls to release a game with specialized roles and toughness, accepting it may be a niche game without WoW numbers.  Sadly, I don't expect this from EQ3, I am expecting the same ol' shyt from SOE.

  • BanaghranBanaghran HuisoPosts: 869Member
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by Phrame
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by HeroEvermore

    Games had way more then a trinity.

    Tank

    Healer

    Mana-feed/Buffer (remember enchanters, they were NOT dps)

    Puller

    Crowd control

    Rezzer (not always the healer)

    Damage dealer (the most unwanted role in many games, now it is the most common filler role)

    Attack Buffer (atk spd or atk output not neccesarily from a dps role)

    Now make me a game! go go go! :P

    I wonder how much the Mana-feed/Buffer, Puller, Crowd control, Rezzer, and Attack Buffer could do outside of a group...

    You could still have those roles in group play and give them other abilities to use while soloing

    Which is what games like WoW did. And they gave peopel dual specs (or in the case of Rift like 4.)

    So wow abandoned the  "dps should in general not run out of mana" paradigm? :)

    Flame on!

    :)

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member
    Originally posted by Banaghran
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by Phrame
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    I wonder how much the Mana-feed/Buffer, Puller, Crowd control, Rezzer, and Attack Buffer could do outside of a group...

    You could still have those roles in group play and give them other abilities to use while soloing

    Which is what games like WoW did. And they gave peopel dual specs (or in the case of Rift like 4.)

    So wow abandoned the  "dps should in general not run out of mana" paradigm? :)

    Flame on!

    :)

    As I said in another post, I'm not saying WoW is the pinnacle of good design - they made some poor choices down the road too IMO, but in general - it should be pretty easy to distinguish between "blow through all of my mana as fast as possible for huge burst" (PvP) and "manage my resources for the long, drawn out fight" (PvE) as I believe it is now.

    But yes, DPS in general should not run out of mana... unless they are playing very poorly. Mana management should be the easy part of playing that role - the hard part should be maximizing output while avoiding avoidable damage AND while providing the utility and other role features (buffs, debuffs, control, etc.)

    Knowing when to spend some more mana for higher output and when to back off and regen a bit or use your regen cooldowns etc. is part of the skill in playing a mana based DPS class or healer.

    But having mana management > everything else is absolutely no fun at all.

  • znaiikaznaiika denver, PAPosts: 203Member

    ""Why the hell do I want to play a solo game online?"" ----- For social interactions not dependency.

    "RP" = to, play along side with your friends and assist if needed.

    All these restrictions are aimed to force people to depend on each other, which is fun breaking.

    The definition of word game is "intertainment" not life "to have fun in your spare time".

     

    And Skyrim is also RP but not an MMO.

  • evilizedevilized columbus, OHPosts: 564Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by znaiika

    ""Why the hell do I want to play a solo game online?"" ----- For social interactions not dependency.

    "RP" = to, play along side with your friends and assist if needed.

    All these restrictions are aimed to force people to depend on each other, which is fun breaking.

    The definition of word game is "intertainment" not life "to have fun in your spare time".

     

    And Skyrim is also RP but not an MMO.

    what social interaction?

    example,

    I just reactivated EQ2 last week to see what had changed since I last played. Interestingly enough it seems the game has gotten even more segregated than before. I run around on the most populated server zone to zone and see exactly nobody in each zone. Why do I see empty open world zones? Because they are all in their own solo instance playing the game by themselves. The only thing that hints the game is online is the useless, generally racist banter in general chat (another casualty of the COD / WoW era it would seem, but I won't get into that here).

    Having the ability to progress while solo isn't a bad thing, it gives people something to do when they can't find a group. However, companies actively encouraging solo play and pandering almost exclusively to the solo gamer in an online game is killing the industry. To your point about games being "Entertainment," yes they are, though there is a right way of going about things and a wrong way. For a Massive (big/huge/large/vast) Multiplayer (more than just one person playing...) Online Role Playing (RP = Role Play / Role Playing, nothing to do with playing with your friends) Game to be aimed at the soloist is a slap in the face to those who want to actually do what the genre's name suggests and play with other people.

     

     

     

    *grammar edit, wheeeeee!

  • BanaghranBanaghran HuisoPosts: 869Member
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by Banaghran
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by Phrame
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    I wonder how much the Mana-feed/Buffer, Puller, Crowd control, Rezzer, and Attack Buffer could do outside of a group...

    You could still have those roles in group play and give them other abilities to use while soloing

    Which is what games like WoW did. And they gave peopel dual specs (or in the case of Rift like 4.)

    So wow abandoned the  "dps should in general not run out of mana" paradigm? :)

    Flame on!

    :)

    As I said in another post, I'm not saying WoW is the pinnacle of good design - they made some poor choices down the road too IMO, but in general - it should be pretty easy to distinguish between "blow through all of my mana as fast as possible for huge burst" (PvP) and "manage my resources for the long, drawn out fight" (PvE) as I believe it is now.

    But yes, DPS in general should not run out of mana... unless they are playing very poorly. Mana management should be the easy part of playing that role - the hard part should be maximizing output while avoiding avoidable damage AND while providing the utility and other role features (buffs, debuffs, control, etc.)

    Knowing when to spend some more mana for higher output and when to back off and regen a bit or use your regen cooldowns etc. is part of the skill in playing a mana based DPS class or healer.

    But having mana management > everything else is absolutely no fun at all.

    Even if i could argue till tomorrow about the reality of managing your mana vs dps (or the non-existence of it), my point was more in the area of where mana batteries fit into that, because the current system is a bit a selfish system, you dont run out ouf mana because you were able to memorize your rotation and manage your cooldowns, not because you were able to socialize with a mana battery class that is willing to help you. :)

    Flame on!

    :)

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,680Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by XAPGames
    Originally posted by Painlezz

    Remove PvP from the game and the problem is solved.  Remove PvP from the game and you'll get everything you're asking for.

    PvP is the plague that has destroyed the MMORPG scene.

    Simply put, class balance...

    Touching on this, because it's something I'm working on atm.

    I think the issue is that people roll support classes and expect to be able to hold their own in PVP.  That forces the developers to turn support classes into DPS classes.  I think the same thing happened to classes when public demanded that all classes become soloable.

    In the end, you have all classes soloable, all classes PVP worthy, and what used to be specialist classes really don't exist any longer. (edit: at least not like they used to)

    It was actually PvE that caused the change. In PVP, you roll a class you want to play, so support people roll support. There's never really been a problem with that. Advancement, however, is done through PvE. That means that specialized classes are often very weak in some aspect, resulting in slower levelling.  In DAoC, one of the complaints at release  from many was that rolling a healer meant you had to group because you simply could not survive trying to fight solo with your healer character. The healers were levelling slower than the other classes in many cases. I didn't follow that issue beyond the first few months so I am unsure what the changes were to either address or remedy that.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by HeroEvermore

    Games had way more then a trinity.

    Tank

    Healer

    Mana-feed/Buffer (remember enchanters, they were NOT dps)

    Puller

    Crowd control

    Rezzer (not always the healer)

    Damage dealer (the most unwanted role in many games, now it is the most common filler role)

    Attack Buffer (atk spd or atk output not neccesarily from a dps role)

    Now make me a game! go go go! :P

    I wonder how much the Mana-feed/Buffer, Puller, Crowd control, Rezzer, and Attack Buffer could do outside of a group...

     Ironically, in EQ the bards, enchanters, necromancers and monks who filled those roles actually did better soloing than regular DPS or tanks, due to neat class tricks like kiting, feign death and mezzing.

  • znaiikaznaiika denver, PAPosts: 203Member

    There is a reason why people are hiding in istances, I am sure it's not because they can solo, but reather, a several spoiled apples that poisoned the system.

    I am very sure, if game componies push their games to must group? most of online gamers would go back to single player rp mode.

    Bad for MMO business.

     

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