Lessening of game difficulty and hybrid classes only happened to please the solo crowd. Likewise for the more recent "every class is a healer", it is there to suit solo play.
In a modern easyMMO you are the trinity, no one else is needed.
By recent and modern, you mean 1997, right?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I don't think it as much to do with lack of creativity or thinking outside the box as much as players unwilling to wait around 8 hours a day for that bard or cleric.
I fondly recall having to stop playing my favorite class and level a more desirable one in order to just find a leveling party. Until this issue is fixed, i don't see a return to the way it used to be.
Why do you think it has to be fixed? Because you were "suffering" all the time from having to make a choice?
Where does this double standard come from, when there is too many rogues (or anything else), people go "damn fotm rerollers, i have to play something else just to get a spot", yet when there are not that many people playing a essential class, its always "damn game system, FORCING me to play something i dont want".
Remove PvP from the game and the problem is solved. Remove PvP from the game and you'll get everything you're asking for.
PvP is the plague that has destroyed the MMORPG scene.
Simply put, class balance...
You cannot possibly hope to balance 20+ classes for PvP. You cannot possibly hope that some "buffer" only class will be viable in PvP against a DPS style class.
PvP needs to be left to the CoD, Halo, League of Legends, and other games designed to be player vs player oriented. Leave the role playing, level grinding, and questing out of it.
Remove PvP from the game and the problem is solved. Remove PvP from the game and you'll get everything you're asking for.
PvP is the plague that has destroyed the MMORPG scene.
Simply put, class balance...
Touching on this, because it's something I'm working on atm.
I think the issue is that people roll support classes and expect to be able to hold their own in PVP. That forces the developers to turn support classes into DPS classes. I think the same thing happened to classes when public demanded that all classes become soloable.
In the end, you have all classes soloable, all classes PVP worthy, and what used to be specialist classes really don't exist any longer. (edit: at least not like they used to)
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
I don't think it as much to do with lack of creativity or thinking outside the box as much as players unwilling to wait around 8 hours a day for that bard or cleric.
I fondly recall having to stop playing my favorite class and level a more desirable one in order to just find a leveling party. Until this issue is fixed, i don't see a return to the way it used to be.
Why do you think it has to be fixed? Because you were "suffering" all the time from having to make a choice?
Where does this double standard come from, when there is too many rogues (or anything else), people go "damn fotm rerollers, i have to play something else just to get a spot", yet when there are not that many people playing a essential class, its always "damn game system, FORCING me to play something i dont want".
Flame on!
he's right.
back to eve because its an mmo where you can 'change' your class very quickly assuming you cross-trained...
I can fly a guardian. ('healer'). I really can. I got a titan killmail with a guardian drone once. -not final blow-.
but I don't want to.
reality is this: if you make clases, then make them mandatory, you better also make them enjoyable. if a tank or healer is something NOBODY wants to play, the developers failed. I don't want my healer to be rocking back and forth repeating to himself "I hate my life I hate my life, the things they make me do. I'll quit and reroll. I'm quiitting today for sure" as he heads into a raid.
I want a healer who wants to be a healer and who's good at being a healer. If no such thing exists, then the role was developped disproprotionatelly compared to the other roles. similarly if everyone wants to be a healer, it was developed disproportionatelly.
I understand making an mmo and balancing it isn't easy but...that's what some people do their entire workweek. I need to see some results. its the profession they chose, its the job they chose, now its time to get it done.
Balance the roles. You must.
I have a huge problem with this statement.
In old school EQ you could raid with a ton of people. The important things were to control a fight with tanks and healers and dps was there for the utility and to make the boss go faster. In later raids they added other things for dps classes to do that were unique. I did not raid EQ on the cutting edge....but I did in WoW.
In WoW the sole reason for enrage timers being added to the game, along with limited raid sizes, was to give a meaning to DPS. Now the DPS mattered because you would hit the enrage timer. In the cutting edge guild though the raid strategizer would pick how many healers and how many tanks you needed for an encounter. This number would change based on the needs of the raid (perhaps +2 healers to keep everyone alive to learn a part of the encounter, perhaps even healers to clear it a few times then -1 or -2 healers when put on farm status).
This comes from someone who had a DPS main and a healer alt when the dps class was not needed or healing was needed moreso, etc etc.
This dynamic change in the optimum party for the cutting edge really hurts more casual raiding guilds because you might form a raid based on who showed up that day which may or may not be an optimum composition.
To get back on topic, balanced healers will not be fun for the average player. A balanced healer should not be able to outheal one players dps otherwise they will always be optimal (and thus, mandatory) for organized groups whether it be pvp or small group pve or a raid. A balanced healer will not be able to dps while healing (unless healers healing+healers dps=total damage of a dpser). A balanced healer will not have more utility then others while adhereing to that formula either.
Frequently healer classes in MMOS, in an effort to attract players that would not otherwise heal and to make them more fun to play even to ones who would choose to heal, are overpowered. They can outheal a person's dps, they can contribute dps while doing this healing if needed and they have equal or greater utility in most cases.
Your view that a healer if required should be fun.....just makes them even MORE required. Does my view of a balanced healer sound fun to you and would you play that character?
And that is the problem. In order for a healer to be fun to the average person they have to have a lot of raw power. The average player needs to have powerful life reversing spells such as an in combat rez or a heal over time combined with a DOT spell. ETC. Spells that make them FEEL powerful. The problem is that these very same spells become so mandatory. Why would I raid with less then the maximum number of healers with the exception of gimicks (enrage timers) or for the sake of speed (farm runs). The same applies to pvp and small groups.
And yet if you actually wanted to have balanced healers, no one would play them because they would not FEEL powerful. Interesting problem.
you cant remove pvp. players naturally want to compete with one another.
also the strictness of class composition an class balance is a bigger problem in PvE than in non-elite pvp.
finally, 'tank' is not a viable pvp role so I don't see how your idea can fix class balancing since there's already only 2 roles in pvp not 3.
Tanks are viable in PVP or rather COULD be viable, just depends on class design and mechanics.
Body blocking of range shots/magic, skills that redirect focus to themselevs or away from the opponent such as a soft taunt skill that debuffs all damage from an enemy character by 66 percent unless they attack the user or an actual taunt. Or pvp mechanics like zones of control or capture the flag give aditional usefulness to a tank. Respawn mechanics could also be tuned to reward tankier character.
People complained for years, how looking for that 1 role to fill out the team, was the difference between a working group or people disbanding and doing something else because they couldn't find that one "needed" class
Any change to the industry is either because people whined enough or because there is more money to be found doing it differently. The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive
Remove PvP from the game and the problem is solved. Remove PvP from the game and you'll get everything you're asking for.
PvP is the plague that has destroyed the MMORPG scene.
Simply put, class balance...
Touching on this, because it's something I'm working on atm.
I think the issue is that people roll support classes and expect to be able to hold their own in PVP. That forces the developers to turn support classes into DPS classes. I think the same thing happened to classes when public demanded that all classes become soloable.
In the end, you have all classes soloable, all classes PVP worthy, and what used to be specialist classes really don't exist any longer. (edit: at least not like they used to)
Well, if one class can solo and another class cannot that imediately creates a huge population imbalance. Thus, the games that have the most class specialization generally have forced group/group encouraging mechanics and none or very few classes that can solo.
I do not think that support should be able to hold their own in pvp, particularily if they can offer good team buffs. But buff classes were removed and that role has generally been given to everyone in WoW clones and most AAA MMOS nowdays.
If by support you mean healer then in a pvp enviroment they need to be able to outheal one person or they feel really bad in pvp. Thus you have this problem where healers can't be soloed thus it requires greater coordination to fight them and thus it is easier to win with and thus it is op. This stems from making healers have fun mechanics to FEEL good when they are played and thus power level goes way up in order to meet the expectation to feel good as the class.
If a support class cannot hold its own in pvp...then its buffs/utility will be worth taking to be part of the group to make up for their lack of soloability in pvp or it won't....and the class will be a MUST HAVE or a MUST NOT HAVE class. While yes there is an area where they can be balanced..... realize your balance for this class will be like balancing on a tight rope compared to the other classes standard balance beam.
Remove PvP from the game and the problem is solved. Remove PvP from the game and you'll get everything you're asking for.
PvP is the plague that has destroyed the MMORPG scene.
Simply put, class balance...
You cannot possibly hope to balance 20+ classes for PvP. You cannot possibly hope that some "buffer" only class will be viable in PvP against a DPS style class.
PvP needs to be left to the CoD, Halo, League of Legends, and other games designed to be player vs player oriented. Leave the role playing, level grinding, and questing out of it.
Agree with this, games should be OR/OR, would be much better.
you cant remove pvp. players naturally want to compete with one another.
also the strictness of class composition an class balance is a bigger problem in PvE than in non-elite pvp.
finally, 'tank' is not a viable pvp role so I don't see how your idea can fix class balancing since there's already only 2 roles in pvp not 3.
Well, single player games, mainly ps2, ps3, ... games are single .... I do not see any problem. I also want to compete, but not against players but programmers and pve environment. Yes, I know, behind pvp player there is brain, but still.
And I'm not against pvp, just I'm sure would be better for or if there would be specifically pvp and specifically pve mmo's.
Originally posted by gordiflu Sigh, the lost art of crowd control.
I loved playing Loremaster in LOTRO because of the CC, and the power feed I could give healers. Was an interesting role to fill for sure.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
I pesonally enjoy having separate and distinct roles -- it makes me feel like I am contributing. But I don't necessarily want to be pigeon-holed into a specific role based on my race or class. Limited, yes, but not mandatory. That should come from the build that I choose, imho. However, the problem is that players figure out the prime builds and then expect you to be exactly that or else they will not want to group (swtor lev 50 sage/sorc are expected to heal, regardless of the other choices). Differing classes and builds always lead to imbalance, and that in turn leads right back to forcing players to go with the inferred optimal construct.
I'm sorry I didn't read the entire thread, just wanted to chime in and agree.
Even "newer" MMOs like WoW had a more complex class system in the beginning, only to have it dilluted after countless whines/crying on the official forums.
I remember when Hunters were pullers (Feign Death), Warlocks were debuffers, Paladins/Shaman buffers, Priests main healers, Druids HOT healers, Spriests had shadow synergy with warlocks, Mages & Rogues were primary CCers ... Probably forgetting a lot of the finer nuances now, but you get the picture. Same story in PVP!
Giving everyone every tool is NOT a good design decision (WoW as well as GW2 are guilty of this). The entire point of a MMO is to play with others, so complementary class design should be something every developer strives to achieve. Not 1:1 balance (that's just... idiotic).
I'm sorry I didn't read the entire thread, just wanted to chime in and agree.
Even "newer" MMOs like WoW had a more complex class system in the beginning, only to have it dilluted after countless whines/crying on the official forums.
I remember when Hunters were pullers (Feign Death), Warlocks were debuffers, Paladins/Shaman buffers, Priests main healers, Druids HOT healers, Spriests had shadow synergy with warlocks, Mages & Rogues were primary CCers ... Probably forgetting a lot of the finer nuances now, but you get the picture. Same story in PVP!
Giving everyone every tool is NOT a good design decision (WoW as well as GW2 are guilty of this). The entire point of a MMO is to play with others, so complementary class design should be something every developer strives to achieve. Not 1:1 balance (that's just... idiotic).
On a serious note... sometimes i do miss some complexity. But i'm also a bit greatful it's been simplified, because i'd never have enough time to become exceptionally good at something really complex that doesn't earn me money.
On a serious note... sometimes i do miss some complexity. But i'm also a bit greatful it's been simplified, because i'd never have enough time to become exceptionally good at something really complex that doesn't earn me money.
i appreciate your sentiment there, but computers today are actually far MORE complex than they used to be. And if before it was NEARLY impossible to troubleshoot a hardware malfunction of that sort, today it's COMPLETELY impossible.
So... not a very good comparison.
I do understand not wanting to invest too much time to master a game, even though I disagree with it. I like not being the best in a game. I like having stronger opponents to challenge me.
On a serious note... sometimes i do miss some complexity. But i'm also a bit greatful it's been simplified, because i'd never have enough time to become exceptionally good at something really complex that doesn't earn me money.
i appreciate your sentiment there, but computers today are actually far MORE complex than they used to be. And if before it was NEARLY impossible to troubleshoot a hardware malfunction of that sort, today it's COMPLETELY impossible.
So... not a very good comparison.
I do understand not wanting to invest too much time to master a game, even though I disagree with it. I like not being the best in a game. I like having stronger opponents to challenge me.
Just as classes today are far more complex since they incorporate multiple roles. I don't see being a pure buffer as more complex as being a tank/buffer/debuffer/puller. Yes, the complexity of the group composition is simplified to allow for easier access to content per player. One of the big reasons for this is probably because PvP now seems to be a mandatory thing to have in an MMO. Imagine being a pure buffer, or a puller, in PvP. It doesn't work very well. And with the current popularity of MMO's and the fact that most people want to pwn face, people playing those classes would be extremely rare. It works in an old-school pure RPG experience with less emphasis on downing health-pools. But even then, higher DPS is often a prefered choice due to simple math, more damage = faster kill.
But lets say we still do it, we have these classes in a game, that means that every encounter would have to make them mandatory. Like, you can't survive a boss without this specific buff from the buffer class. That would cause problems because you would spend 3 hours looking for a buffer instead of 3 hours playing the game. It's the good old "LF Healer last spot" but much worse and in multiple layers.
Realise you were joking Timtrack. But a modern computer does the same thing a valve computer did but more quickly. Modern MMO's do not do that, they are a differant type of MMO.
Not trying to bash modern MMO's here, just pointing out that appealing to a wider solo playing demographic was why you see so many of the changes talked about on this thread. I like solo games myself, I would just prefer MMO's to emphasise the massive, the multiplayer, the RPG. That way we have two styles of game, not one.
People started complaining that it was hard to get an optimal group, so they dumbed it down.
Back in old school EQ2 you simply wouldnt do many of the harder dungeons if you didnt have both a Bard and Enchanter, they made that much of a difference. But that was 2 out of 12 archtypes that were absolutely required. Then you needed 1 tank, out of 6 options, and 1 healer, out of 6 options. The other 2 spots in the group were just dps fillers.
I do like the idea of support roles, but they need to balance out the number of classes. Dont have tanks taking up 1/4 of the class options, when they only take up 1 spot in a group of 6.
I think Vanguard has a pretty good balance of classes, and original EQ. Hopefully more games look to those for ideas in the future.
Tupo.. Interesting suggestion, but I would like to offer something else.. Instead of having classes defined as "group, hybrid and solo".. Give every class "group, hybrid and solo" skills.. This means that for example sake that each class will have 60% solo skills, 30% hybrid skills and 10% class defining group skills.. When you do this anyone can play any class they desire with no penality in solo'ing solo content.. This will require that the world have both both solo and group content.. Using EQ as my example, 95% of the roaming zone mobs will be soloable by any class.. However, once you come across a named mob or camp, this is where your class defining group skills come alive such as Mezing, Pulling, Rezing, CC'ing and Healing. Hybrid skills would be watered down version of the unique group skills..
I only offer this suggestion because I hate to have to switch toons back and forth based upon my desire to solo or group mobs.. Especially in a moments notice..
Instead of trying to balance classes i think the aim should be to create classes that suit different player personalities. Some people like levelling through group-fighting and some like soloing and some like both in varying proportions depending on mood. In theory i think this should be easy to do but i think it requires *separate* levelling paths.
By definition someone who wants to solo can't level up on a path designed for group fights and there's no reason to group on a path designed to be soloed.
So when i talk about group, hybrid or solo classes it's more about how you design that class' path through the game - like breadcrumbs.
- a group class would have their gear drop in dungeons and static camps from grouped mobs
- a solo class would get their gear and class spells/abilites following a unique set of breadcrumbs for that class
- a hybrid class would have a bit of both
The main reason i divide them like that is i was thinking if you created a new game with say 6 starting races each with 4 classes then creating 24 unique (and good) solo class paths would be too much work initially and wouldn't provide the grouping option either. So i was thinking designate 2 of each race's classes as group classes and build a shared group levelling path for them as the main spine of the game. Designate one each of the race's classes as the solo class and create 6 unique effectively single player games within the core game for them. The last 6 hybrid classes are hybrid in the sense their path is a mixture of both rather than they are hybrid classes per se - although they likely would be.
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I think a lot of people are missing that this is a logical problem.
If you have levelling based on solo questing where all the classes follow the same quests then two things logically must happen
1) The difficulty has to be set for the least soloable class.
2) The quests can't use unique class abilities e.g. a quest can't *require* climbing and lockpicking if only the rogue class has those abilities.
If you want to have unique classes with unique abilities then you either need separate solo class paths designed around those unique class abilities or the unique class abilites are only used in groups which has a tendency to lead to endless /LFG problems.
You could have a unique solo path for each class designed around their unique abilities *and* those abilities would fit into a group role however i think it would both be easier and lead to more replayability if the classes had separate categories.
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All you need to make tanks work in pvp is to make taunt a timed mutual root and forced targeting.
Group pve fights would be more fun if melee mobs could do it to players too.
I think a lot of people are missing that this is a logical problem.
If you have levelling based on solo questing where all the classes follow the same quests then two things logically must happen
1) The difficulty has to be set for the least soloable class.
2) The quests can't use unique class abilities e.g. a quest can't *require* climbing and lockpicking if only the rogue class has those abilities.
If you want to have unique classes with unique abilities then you either need separate solo class paths designed around those unique class abilities or the unique class abilites are only used in groups which has a tendency to lead to endless /LFG problems.
You could have a unique solo path for each class designed around their unique abilities *and* those abilities would fit into a group role however i think it would both be easier and lead to more replayability if the classes had separate categories.
I think using this logic as the basis of class design is the problem, actually. The difficulty of the entire game shouldn't need to be set based on the weakest soloing class. Not everyone and every class needs to be able to do every quest. Adjusting the difficulty of the entire game so that the least soloable class can do everything will make the game pretty bland, IMO.
You could just have various areas or types of content in the game with differing levels of difficulty: some areas that are easier to solo in but offer fewer rewards, and some areas that are more difficult to solo in but offer better rewards. Put in dungeons, interesting content, etc. in these more difficult areas to lure people in and encourage them to group up and explore those areas. Have some quests that require teamwork and some that don't. Give unique abilities like lockpicking to multiple classes or specs within classes instead of just one to allow for more flexibility.
This way, if you want to solo the more difficult content you can play a class/spec that has really strong solo capabilities. Everyone else will still be able to play a good amount of the game solo, or can take on the challenge of trying to solo in the more powerful areas. The idea is that an MMO should always encourage grouping and offer solo content for when people can't group up, but not for the entire game.
I like how Skyrim did, and it is RPG, you can equip bow and wear light cloth or havy armor, you can craft, make potions and enchant.
The idea of rollplay is to have freinds group together and have fun playing, never about restrictions of any kind.
Skyrim let you choose any and all classes, and yet people choose different styles.
The real problem with MMO is pvpers demand too much, and that break's gameplay for everyone else.
Better gear which pvpers demand = easy gameplay against AI, then going on telling how good pvpers are.
PVPers don't need best gear to fight each other, it makes fights too long against each other, and hard to balance between pve and pvp.
Problem here is Skyrim is a single player game. You are playing in a very controlled world.
I believe a balance can be had between PvP and PvE but it is a tough balance. The reason is some skills used in PvP get OP in PvE - Example 100 blades in GW1. It made warriors pretty hard to kill also made for good farming builds. There needs to be a balance and neither PvPers or PvEers will be happy - that is the key.
Comments
By recent and modern, you mean 1997, right?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Why do you think it has to be fixed? Because you were "suffering" all the time from having to make a choice?
Where does this double standard come from, when there is too many rogues (or anything else), people go "damn fotm rerollers, i have to play something else just to get a spot", yet when there are not that many people playing a essential class, its always "damn game system, FORCING me to play something i dont want".
Flame on!
Remove PvP from the game and the problem is solved. Remove PvP from the game and you'll get everything you're asking for.
PvP is the plague that has destroyed the MMORPG scene.
Simply put, class balance...
You cannot possibly hope to balance 20+ classes for PvP. You cannot possibly hope that some "buffer" only class will be viable in PvP against a DPS style class.
PvP needs to be left to the CoD, Halo, League of Legends, and other games designed to be player vs player oriented. Leave the role playing, level grinding, and questing out of it.
Touching on this, because it's something I'm working on atm.
I think the issue is that people roll support classes and expect to be able to hold their own in PVP. That forces the developers to turn support classes into DPS classes. I think the same thing happened to classes when public demanded that all classes become soloable.
In the end, you have all classes soloable, all classes PVP worthy, and what used to be specialist classes really don't exist any longer. (edit: at least not like they used to)
I have a huge problem with this statement.
In old school EQ you could raid with a ton of people. The important things were to control a fight with tanks and healers and dps was there for the utility and to make the boss go faster. In later raids they added other things for dps classes to do that were unique. I did not raid EQ on the cutting edge....but I did in WoW.
In WoW the sole reason for enrage timers being added to the game, along with limited raid sizes, was to give a meaning to DPS. Now the DPS mattered because you would hit the enrage timer. In the cutting edge guild though the raid strategizer would pick how many healers and how many tanks you needed for an encounter. This number would change based on the needs of the raid (perhaps +2 healers to keep everyone alive to learn a part of the encounter, perhaps even healers to clear it a few times then -1 or -2 healers when put on farm status).
This comes from someone who had a DPS main and a healer alt when the dps class was not needed or healing was needed moreso, etc etc.
This dynamic change in the optimum party for the cutting edge really hurts more casual raiding guilds because you might form a raid based on who showed up that day which may or may not be an optimum composition.
To get back on topic, balanced healers will not be fun for the average player. A balanced healer should not be able to outheal one players dps otherwise they will always be optimal (and thus, mandatory) for organized groups whether it be pvp or small group pve or a raid. A balanced healer will not be able to dps while healing (unless healers healing+healers dps=total damage of a dpser). A balanced healer will not have more utility then others while adhereing to that formula either.
Frequently healer classes in MMOS, in an effort to attract players that would not otherwise heal and to make them more fun to play even to ones who would choose to heal, are overpowered. They can outheal a person's dps, they can contribute dps while doing this healing if needed and they have equal or greater utility in most cases.
Your view that a healer if required should be fun.....just makes them even MORE required. Does my view of a balanced healer sound fun to you and would you play that character?
And that is the problem. In order for a healer to be fun to the average person they have to have a lot of raw power. The average player needs to have powerful life reversing spells such as an in combat rez or a heal over time combined with a DOT spell. ETC. Spells that make them FEEL powerful. The problem is that these very same spells become so mandatory. Why would I raid with less then the maximum number of healers with the exception of gimicks (enrage timers) or for the sake of speed (farm runs). The same applies to pvp and small groups.
And yet if you actually wanted to have balanced healers, no one would play them because they would not FEEL powerful. Interesting problem.
Tanks are viable in PVP or rather COULD be viable, just depends on class design and mechanics.
Body blocking of range shots/magic, skills that redirect focus to themselevs or away from the opponent such as a soft taunt skill that debuffs all damage from an enemy character by 66 percent unless they attack the user or an actual taunt. Or pvp mechanics like zones of control or capture the flag give aditional usefulness to a tank. Respawn mechanics could also be tuned to reward tankier character.
Developers just choose not to in most cases.
People complained for years, how looking for that 1 role to fill out the team, was the difference between a working group or people disbanding and doing something else because they couldn't find that one "needed" class
Any change to the industry is either because people whined enough or because there is more money to be found doing it differently. The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive
Well, if one class can solo and another class cannot that imediately creates a huge population imbalance. Thus, the games that have the most class specialization generally have forced group/group encouraging mechanics and none or very few classes that can solo.
I do not think that support should be able to hold their own in pvp, particularily if they can offer good team buffs. But buff classes were removed and that role has generally been given to everyone in WoW clones and most AAA MMOS nowdays.
If by support you mean healer then in a pvp enviroment they need to be able to outheal one person or they feel really bad in pvp. Thus you have this problem where healers can't be soloed thus it requires greater coordination to fight them and thus it is easier to win with and thus it is op. This stems from making healers have fun mechanics to FEEL good when they are played and thus power level goes way up in order to meet the expectation to feel good as the class.
If a support class cannot hold its own in pvp...then its buffs/utility will be worth taking to be part of the group to make up for their lack of soloability in pvp or it won't....and the class will be a MUST HAVE or a MUST NOT HAVE class. While yes there is an area where they can be balanced..... realize your balance for this class will be like balancing on a tight rope compared to the other classes standard balance beam.
Agree with this, games should be OR/OR, would be much better.
Well, single player games, mainly ps2, ps3, ... games are single .... I do not see any problem. I also want to compete, but not against players but programmers and pve environment. Yes, I know, behind pvp player there is brain, but still.
And I'm not against pvp, just I'm sure would be better for or if there would be specifically pvp and specifically pve mmo's.
I loved playing Loremaster in LOTRO because of the CC, and the power feed I could give healers. Was an interesting role to fill for sure.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
I'm sorry I didn't read the entire thread, just wanted to chime in and agree.
Even "newer" MMOs like WoW had a more complex class system in the beginning, only to have it dilluted after countless whines/crying on the official forums.
I remember when Hunters were pullers (Feign Death), Warlocks were debuffers, Paladins/Shaman buffers, Priests main healers, Druids HOT healers, Spriests had shadow synergy with warlocks, Mages & Rogues were primary CCers ... Probably forgetting a lot of the finer nuances now, but you get the picture. Same story in PVP!
Giving everyone every tool is NOT a good design decision (WoW as well as GW2 are guilty of this). The entire point of a MMO is to play with others, so complementary class design should be something every developer strives to achieve. Not 1:1 balance (that's just... idiotic).
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I like your last paragraph
Computer manufacturers got lazy!
On a serious note... sometimes i do miss some complexity. But i'm also a bit greatful it's been simplified, because i'd never have enough time to become exceptionally good at something really complex that doesn't earn me money.
i appreciate your sentiment there, but computers today are actually far MORE complex than they used to be. And if before it was NEARLY impossible to troubleshoot a hardware malfunction of that sort, today it's COMPLETELY impossible.
So... not a very good comparison.
I do understand not wanting to invest too much time to master a game, even though I disagree with it. I like not being the best in a game. I like having stronger opponents to challenge me.
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Just as classes today are far more complex since they incorporate multiple roles. I don't see being a pure buffer as more complex as being a tank/buffer/debuffer/puller. Yes, the complexity of the group composition is simplified to allow for easier access to content per player. One of the big reasons for this is probably because PvP now seems to be a mandatory thing to have in an MMO. Imagine being a pure buffer, or a puller, in PvP. It doesn't work very well. And with the current popularity of MMO's and the fact that most people want to pwn face, people playing those classes would be extremely rare. It works in an old-school pure RPG experience with less emphasis on downing health-pools. But even then, higher DPS is often a prefered choice due to simple math, more damage = faster kill.
But lets say we still do it, we have these classes in a game, that means that every encounter would have to make them mandatory. Like, you can't survive a boss without this specific buff from the buffer class. That would cause problems because you would spend 3 hours looking for a buffer instead of 3 hours playing the game. It's the good old "LF Healer last spot" but much worse and in multiple layers.
Realise you were joking Timtrack. But a modern computer does the same thing a valve computer did but more quickly. Modern MMO's do not do that, they are a differant type of MMO.
Not trying to bash modern MMO's here, just pointing out that appealing to a wider solo playing demographic was why you see so many of the changes talked about on this thread. I like solo games myself, I would just prefer MMO's to emphasise the massive, the multiplayer, the RPG. That way we have two styles of game, not one.
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
People started complaining that it was hard to get an optimal group, so they dumbed it down.
Back in old school EQ2 you simply wouldnt do many of the harder dungeons if you didnt have both a Bard and Enchanter, they made that much of a difference. But that was 2 out of 12 archtypes that were absolutely required. Then you needed 1 tank, out of 6 options, and 1 healer, out of 6 options. The other 2 spots in the group were just dps fillers.
I do like the idea of support roles, but they need to balance out the number of classes. Dont have tanks taking up 1/4 of the class options, when they only take up 1 spot in a group of 6.
I think Vanguard has a pretty good balance of classes, and original EQ. Hopefully more games look to those for ideas in the future.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Instead of trying to balance classes i think the aim should be to create classes that suit different player personalities. Some people like levelling through group-fighting and some like soloing and some like both in varying proportions depending on mood. In theory i think this should be easy to do but i think it requires *separate* levelling paths.
By definition someone who wants to solo can't level up on a path designed for group fights and there's no reason to group on a path designed to be soloed.
So when i talk about group, hybrid or solo classes it's more about how you design that class' path through the game - like breadcrumbs.
- a group class would have their gear drop in dungeons and static camps from grouped mobs
- a solo class would get their gear and class spells/abilites following a unique set of breadcrumbs for that class
- a hybrid class would have a bit of both
The main reason i divide them like that is i was thinking if you created a new game with say 6 starting races each with 4 classes then creating 24 unique (and good) solo class paths would be too much work initially and wouldn't provide the grouping option either. So i was thinking designate 2 of each race's classes as group classes and build a shared group levelling path for them as the main spine of the game. Designate one each of the race's classes as the solo class and create 6 unique effectively single player games within the core game for them. The last 6 hybrid classes are hybrid in the sense their path is a mixture of both rather than they are hybrid classes per se - although they likely would be.
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I think a lot of people are missing that this is a logical problem.
If you have levelling based on solo questing where all the classes follow the same quests then two things logically must happen
1) The difficulty has to be set for the least soloable class.
2) The quests can't use unique class abilities e.g. a quest can't *require* climbing and lockpicking if only the rogue class has those abilities.
If you want to have unique classes with unique abilities then you either need separate solo class paths designed around those unique class abilities or the unique class abilites are only used in groups which has a tendency to lead to endless /LFG problems.
You could have a unique solo path for each class designed around their unique abilities *and* those abilities would fit into a group role however i think it would both be easier and lead to more replayability if the classes had separate categories.
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All you need to make tanks work in pvp is to make taunt a timed mutual root and forced targeting.
Group pve fights would be more fun if melee mobs could do it to players too.
I like how Skyrim did, and it is RPG, you can equip bow and wear light cloth or havy armor, you can craft, make potions and enchant.
The idea of rollplay is to have freinds group together and have fun playing, never about restrictions of any kind.
Skyrim let you choose any and all classes, and yet people choose different styles.
The real problem with MMO is pvpers demand too much, and that break's gameplay for everyone else.
Better gear which pvpers demand = easy gameplay against AI, then going on telling how good pvpers are.
PVPers don't need best gear to fight each other, it makes fights too long against each other, and hard to balance between pve and pvp.
I think using this logic as the basis of class design is the problem, actually. The difficulty of the entire game shouldn't need to be set based on the weakest soloing class. Not everyone and every class needs to be able to do every quest. Adjusting the difficulty of the entire game so that the least soloable class can do everything will make the game pretty bland, IMO.
You could just have various areas or types of content in the game with differing levels of difficulty: some areas that are easier to solo in but offer fewer rewards, and some areas that are more difficult to solo in but offer better rewards. Put in dungeons, interesting content, etc. in these more difficult areas to lure people in and encourage them to group up and explore those areas. Have some quests that require teamwork and some that don't. Give unique abilities like lockpicking to multiple classes or specs within classes instead of just one to allow for more flexibility.
This way, if you want to solo the more difficult content you can play a class/spec that has really strong solo capabilities. Everyone else will still be able to play a good amount of the game solo, or can take on the challenge of trying to solo in the more powerful areas. The idea is that an MMO should always encourage grouping and offer solo content for when people can't group up, but not for the entire game.
Problem here is Skyrim is a single player game. You are playing in a very controlled world.
I believe a balance can be had between PvP and PvE but it is a tough balance. The reason is some skills used in PvP get OP in PvE - Example 100 blades in GW1. It made warriors pretty hard to kill also made for good farming builds. There needs to be a balance and neither PvPers or PvEers will be happy - that is the key.