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Originally posted by Durao Originally posted by Vesavius While I do not think a single game has ever 'made someone do it', I think to ignore the continual desensitisation of being exposed to violent (or any other extreme) material is foolish. The human brain is like coding really... garbage in, garbage out. Most people eventually become a sum of their exposure. I know most people will say 'wait, I'm a strong independent person, I am not affected by games!', but... people are not as immune to this as they like to think, and, well, yes they are. They just don't notice it because it has been happening all their lives. I am not saying games make murderers, but I am saying being exposed to hyper violence on an extended basis numbs people to it, and that something like a game can act as a catalyst for someone who is predisposed to certain behaviours (it could even act as a normaliser, making the extreme behaviour more acceptable and therefore more likely). To be honest, saying a twinkie made him do it (a joke example I know, but just running with it for now) is no more lazy then saying 'games and other hyper violent media have no effect at all on the humans playing them'. It's a more complicated issue then most people choose to recognise to be honest.
That's an excellent point, and I certainly agree. What I was trying to get at were the knee-jerk reactions that occur without much thought. I suppose a dose of reflection is needed all around.
Yeah, gamers need to stop with the siege mentallity and take a realistic view at all sides of what's being said. I personally usually find the truth of any debate like this lies inbetween the more polarised of views.
The conversation isn't simply 'a game made me shoot him', or 'games have zero negative impact on the me'.
I also think that the people who are crying 'nonsense' and 'bullshit' to this subject, and seemingly unable to recognise the slightest of truth in that the media we expose ourselves too has any impact on us, the loudest are usually pretty desensitised themselves already and just don't recognise it. I guess that's part of what makes them so hard to reach.
now my 2 cents about games and violence..
You bet damn right video games can have an effect on the mental state of people.. EVERYTHING on this Earth has that ability, raither it be playing sports, bullying, family abuse etc etc.. Any and ALL enviroments and communities can effect the people involved and around them.. I have seen drama caused from school sports to the work place, effect mental stability.. We all know that any abuse through childhood, verbal or physical can alter and effect how the mind works.. School bullying can effect people into depression and worse.. Video game exposure is NO DAMN DIFFERENT.. To deny the effect the cyber world can have is just lying to yourself and others.. Rather it be Facebook games, to online chatrooms, peoples minds and lifestyles can be altered for the better or worse..
I personally believe that today's FPS infactuation is more detramental to society then a benefit.. But that is just my opinion from my personal observations.. FPS games like Call of Duty I believe do not "cause" events, No more then smoking "causes" cancer.. BUT I do believe there is a relationship between the two.. Same can be said about drinking and liver problems.. I do believe there is a relationship between violence and video games, but how and when.. OH.. btw.. This applies to Hollywood movies as well.. Imagine how many BILLIONS are made from violent entertainment, and you think many will want an unbiased report on that? I'm still trying to understand how VIOLENCE = entertainment? Really? Think about it..
Originally posted by CalmOceans MMORPG is one of the few genres that never gets named when people talk about violent video games. Even though there is a lot of sword fighting and magic and killing, it is all set in a fantasy setting that has no equal in real-life. The games are social and don't glorify violence, there is no blood or gore or anything of the sorts in most MMO. FPS used to be more fantasy like, now they are portrayals of real-life with real guns with real names of guns with realisic killings, I was shocked at last year's E3, how much violence was glorified as if it is some good thing. Many people after E3 were really upset at how gaming companies went about promoting their products. I would really hate if MMO started to get a bad repuation because people would associate MMOFPS with MMORPG, they are different games and I hope they are not compared, I feel uncomfortable just looking at some trailers of current FPS games, I have never felt that looking at MMORPG games.
Sorry I don't see the difference in killing another player ingame in a MMORPG then I would in a FPS. FPS in the way we speak about it in this topic is meant to be a First Person Shooter. I have truly no idea what type of FPS you use to play that was more fantasy like.
Wolfenstein, Doom are just 2 of the very first type of FPS games, they sure where voilent. Already at that time I imagined a computer age where all that almost looked reall. We are getting there. Does this mean I accept voilence. In games yes, in real life I truly dislike voilence.
Maybe you looking to deep into this whole subject, perhaps some news here or there shocked you where games seemed to influence crimes people committed.
In a way I could say I am atracted to voilence but only if it's in a game/movie/tv type of way. I am truly against all forms of voilence in real life!!!
And....you think MMORPG's could not have bad influence on people already?? 10 Most Bizarre Gaming Incidents
If people do bad things it's because of them, perhaps something triggered them, but those things have always been a part of that person.
Luckely most of use understand the difference between game-voilence and real life.
Example I have never been in war myself, respect those who have. But in a way when for example the first time playing Cod 3 I truly felt a certain rush of how it must have been like in a war. I just looked so realistic that it completely drew me in. Immersion is what I seek out of my playing experiance
I agree with you. I would also add that in my experience, FPS games attract a different crowd than MMORPGs. Or at least they used to. Now the lines are getting blurred and a lot of MMOs are attempting to cater to them.
I've never been interested in the 5 minute kill-fests in FPS. I guess it's the same reason I intensely dislike scenario PVP with their FPS-style scoreboards. Give me large scale open world continuous PVP like in DAoC or GW2 any day of the week over that esport garbage.
I also could care less if an MMO has combat like a martial arts arcade game. As a matter of fact if an MMO features that in their marketting, I usually stay away.
But yeah I feel the same way about modern soldier FPS as I do about the GTA franchise...they're sort of morally dodgy. I guess pimps and mercs would like thme though :P
I was playing hello kitty online.
And I was hitting on all this fluffy animal. That is way too violence... Eventhough you can't actually kill anything in that game only daze thing, but still... hitting on animal! Violence!
What is with mmorpg all about killing stuff. And fighting each other?
You make me like charity
Originally posted by ShakyMo Rydeson There is scientific proof widely accepted by 99.9% of scientists that smoking causes cancer There is zero scientific proof that playing cod turns you into a serial killer. Your belief is just that, a belief.
SHOW us those facts genius.. I was a smoker and I don't have cancer.. You need to reread what I said and think about it some more..
Originally posted by IselinI would also add that in my experience, FPS games attract a different crowd than MMORPGs. Or at least they used to. Now the lines are getting blurred and a lot of MMOs are attempting to cater to them.
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Rydeson Originally posted by ShakyMo Rydeson There is scientific proof widely accepted by 99.9% of scientists that smoking causes cancer There is zero scientific proof that playing cod turns you into a serial killer. Your belief is just that, a belief.
Anyone with google should be able to find literature on the relationship between cancer rate and smoking. Here is one of the huge literature on it.
"Lung cancer risks depend far more strongly on the duration than on the daily dose-rate of cigarette smoking. For example, a three-fold increase in the daily dose-rate may produce only about a three-fold increase in effect, while a three-fold increase in duration might produce about a 100-fold increase in effect. Hence, a few decades after cigarette smoking becomes widespread, national lung cancer rates may remain very misleadingly low, even though they will eventually become extremely high."
Originally posted by AlBQuirky Originally posted by Iselin I would also add that in my experience, FPS games attract a different crowd than MMORPGs. Or at least they used to. Now the lines are getting blurred and a lot of MMOs are attempting to cater to them.
Only if MMORPG genre will be killed by this "cancer". It is more like a super power mutation that transformed the genre into better games.
I think it's great.
I understand what you were trying to day. I however, do not believe it was the best comparison to bring up.
Violent video games can have an effect on a persons state of mind, just like smoking can cause cancer, However, this comparison doesn't work entirely because violent games doesn't ALWAYS have an effect on a persons state of mind. On the other hand, it is scientifically accurate that smoking has an immediate and long lasting effect on your physical state, from the first to the last moments that you smoke in your life. You may not be able to see the symptoms, and you may not get cancer, but it is still there.
Originally posted by Justin9820 Video games are in no way associated with violence. If someone is violent during or after playing video games it's because they are a violent person, not because they played a video game.
There is definately some type of link between violent culture (movies, music, and video games) and real life violence. There have been too many documented cases of people snapping after playing video games or watching violent movies for this to just be blown off as natural violent tendencies or political scap goating.
Originally posted by Novusod Originally posted by Justin9820 Video games are in no way associated with violence. If someone is violent during or after playing video games it's because they are a violent person, not because they played a video game.
I don't think there has been any documented cases of someone snapping after playing a video and if there was that would be a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. They would still need to prove that they snapped because of the video game.
However you are right ther is a link between violent cultures and RL Violence, however it is unknown to what extent, if any, the media (games, movies...) have on the culture of violence.
Just look at the the whole gun in schools debates (don't remember the countries and not going to bother to look it up, just using it as a comparison). Some countries have guns in schools (as in armed staff, or staff having access to arms) and still have high murder rates, others have guns in schools with low murder rates. The same applies for guns not in school.
Therefore all we can conclude is the the guns in school is not the issue. The culture of violence is.
The very first MMORPG I've played was where I was able to cut body parts up, collect heads of other players as trophies and was able to sell it on ebay because later, it became a rare and the person was sorta a legend. The person who bought it put it in their museum of rares they have collected.
The first MMO, I strictly went out to kill people.
This was before you ever played an MMO.
To me, MMOs are violent and graphic.
I think there was an MMORPG in a FPS style that predates the very first MMO you have played. I don't know which MMO you played first, but I can only assume based on your post.
Fallen Earth is another that has been out for quite awhile(years) and is free to play and is running now.
It's an RPG game.
The MMORPG genre has different points you can critisize and actually there are some things which are not that great if you think more about it.
Actually, mmorpgs are based on GREED more and more. The whole marketing aims this, they aim the greed in peoples mind. Whether its about the f2p model or strategies to hold your longer in the game.
Its not just about character development. And since you mention "violent video games", the killing from mobs is existent and actually after a while even tedious since almost every game is based on killing mobs to advance.
Take the economics in most mmorpgs and the spur for more greed, you realize that actually mmorpgs have a lot more potential with a different approach, a different gameplay. There are still loads of ideas possible.
I would love to hear some voices what you are thinking about it.
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
Originally posted by CalmOceans Originally posted by Justin9820 Video games are in no way assosiated with violence. If someone is violent during or after playing video games it's because they are a violent person, not because they played a video game.
I don't want to argue that since that would get into politics which isn't allowed on the forum.
I just don't want MMORPG to go the way FPS went, violence is not glorified in MMO, it is a means to an end because it lends itself to engaging gameplay. But FPS took this too far, they glorify violence, from the box art to the trailers, you are encouraged to like violence, games make killings as realistic as possible. Hopefully this isn't the path MMO take and hopefully people do not put MMORPG and MMOFPS under the same bracket.
Violence is almost always a means to an end. Its always been that way, and it likely always will. The only difference is one of context and perception. The problem comes from the thoughtless, ignorant and/or evil application of violence. That last (evil) is the idea that ends justify any means used to achieve them. To a thoughtful, ethical person, they do not.
FPS is simply another aspect of gaming. In terms of violence, there is little difference if ones head is blown off by an AK74, or chopped off with a sword. Dead is dead. Humans are a predator species, violence is one means we have of dealing with reality. Hopefully we will learn to become more selective with that violence before we manage to wipe ourselves out.
If you examine MMORPG type violence, you will see the same types of things. Does it matter if the mobs are killed by a rain of fireballs from the sky, ripped apart by summoned demons or killed by a burst of automatic weapon fire? Dead is dead.
All three in terms of most peoples lives, are fantasy. What disturbs many people is the increasing graphic "realism" in the FPS games. Couple that with the perception of a difference between PvP and PvE in most peoples minds, and you have the essence of what disturbs many people.
One possible solution is to educate (rather than indoctrinate) people to understand the difference between fantasy, and reality. But that would require them to be actively thoughtful, rather than reactively emotive. Which of course would make them MUCH more difficult to manipulate and control.
Originally posted by Vesavius Originally posted by Justin9820 Video games are in no way associated with violence. If someone is violent during or after playing video games it's because they are a violent person, not because they played a video game.
Desensitisation dosen't come into it at all you think?
Can we see the reading you have done on the matter and the evidence to support what you say though? I am interested in what studies you base your firm set in stone statement on.
While an interesting concept, the difference between fantasy and reality needs to be addressed. In other words, its all about choice. While I may killed thousands and thousands of orcs, goblins, or even enemy humans, thats all with in the fantasy construct. Unless I had a seriously compelling reason (self defense most likely) I would never choose to use violence against another person in reality. Thats a choice that is open to everyone. The problem isn't the violence, its the thoughtless/sloppy blurrying of the line between reality and fantasy.