If you have a solo questing game where all the classes follow the same quests then over time the classes will gradually become more and more similar for what should be obvious reasons.
The way out is either grouping and classes designed for a specific group role or having separate solo quest lines each designed around a specific class' strengths and weaknesses.
A compromise would be to have class-based levelling where classes were split into group, hybrid and solo classes.
Group Classes
The main ones would be fighters and healers. Their levelling would be designed around grouping up and fighting mobs in dungeons and static camps which is easily done by simply making all their gear drop off mobs in those kind of places. Fighters should be able to switch between tank/dps or dps/dps and healers between heal/dps and heal/heal so these classes are sufficient to form groups with.
Hybrid Classes
These classes have the ability to level from solo activities that suit the class e.g. rangers exploring, wizards studying lore etc, or from solo-killing specific mobs in specific contexts that suit the class e.g. rangers vs natural creatures outdoors, wizards against magical creatures etc, or they could join the group classes depending on mood. In groups these classes would all be dps/utility where the utility varied with the class.
Solo classes
These classes have their own unique levelling path designed around the class. They are "solo" classes not in the sense that they are deesigned to be good at solo-killing mobs but in the sense that the path they're on is designed around the skills and abilites that class has e.g. druid quests would be scattered around the world in appropriate places for druids and would involve mobs druids had advantages against. This is similar to the swtor idea except 1) the class is the story i.e. don't try and make up a 100 good story quests per class, instead make it so when the class levels instead of getting 2-3 new spells and or abilities they get 2-3 quests to learn/find those abilities and 2) you don't spend most of your time doing the same side-quests because it's too hard to think up 100 good story quests per class. Druids fight spriggans because their barkskin spell drops off spriggans. Necros fight zombies because the necro summon zombie spell drops off zombies.
Solo classes could join groups in dungeons if they wanted but they wouldn't need to. The best group for a solo class would be someone of that same class.
Tupo.. Interesting suggestion, but I would like to offer something else.. Instead of having classes defined as "group, hybrid and solo".. Give every class "group, hybrid and solo" skills.. This means that for example sake that each class will have 60% solo skills, 30% hybrid skills and 10% class defining group skills.. When you do this anyone can play any class they desire with no penality in solo'ing solo content.. This will require that the world have both both solo and group content.. Using EQ as my example, 95% of the roaming zone mobs will be soloable by any class.. However, once you come across a named mob or camp, this is where your class defining group skills come alive such as Mezing, Pulling, Rezing, CC'ing and Healing. Hybrid skills would be watered down version of the unique group skills..
I only offer this suggestion because I hate to have to switch toons back and forth based upon my desire to solo or group mobs.. Especially in a moments notice..
Tupo.. Interesting suggestion, but I would like to offer something else.. Instead of having classes defined as "group, hybrid and solo".. Give every class "group, hybrid and solo" skills.. This means that for example sake that each class will have 60% solo skills, 30% hybrid skills and 10% class defining group skills.. When you do this anyone can play any class they desire with no penality in solo'ing solo content.. This will require that the world have both both solo and group content.. Using EQ as my example, 95% of the roaming zone mobs will be soloable by any class.. However, once you come across a named mob or camp, this is where your class defining group skills come alive such as Mezing, Pulling, Rezing, CC'ing and Healing. Hybrid skills would be watered down version of the unique group skills..
I only offer this suggestion because I hate to have to switch toons back and forth based upon my desire to solo or group mobs.. Especially in a moments notice..
Most MMOs have their skill trees set up to support that. Limited respeccing gets in the way of being able to swap out regularly if you want two distinctly different builds. However, if you want to be able to switch from primarily solo character to primarily group character, check out Rift's system.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Second Life, Wakfu, Puzzle Pirates, and Ultima Online didn't get that memo.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
one of my favorite times in gaming was actually Vanilla WOW as a hunter in MC/BWL/AQ, I never did any dps, except on bosses, my role was as a puller, I would call out which tank I was pulling to, and as soon as I handed the mob off, I was off to get the next tank his mob. It was critical to making MC into a 1 night thing. If you had to wait for warriors to pull it took days in there. Also it was nice, that if the pull was screwed up I could either Feign, or if it failed, I would be the only casualty, now if a warrior pulls and dies, its a wipe sometimes.
I've been saying this exact same thing for quite some time. I loved playing a buffing support class. My bard in shadowbane was the best and everyone wanted me around. I don't get the dps/tank/healer only trinity. Bring back some support and some mezzing/CC classes. Playing dps alone is fine if you want I suppose, personally I never saw the appeal. Every game I've tried to dps only in, it has bored me to tears. Each to thier own I suppose. Cheers to the OP and I agree 100%.
It all comes down to what is the most efficient build to tackle content, or the simplest when PUGs are concerned. The number of roles is not arbitrary. The game mechanics and game modes dictate what roles are present. If the AI is exploitable, there will be tanking etc.
No one got lazy or anything... The trinity works, it is easy to setup and it is usually fairly efficient too.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Hybrids and game difficulty happened to classes. Every class in new games are hybrids of the classes you mentioned in your original post. Also, the battles are so easy that you omly need the trinity.
I have a hard time adjusting to modern grouping. Aggro breaks loose or maybe adds come in. I'm looking around to figure out who is handling off-tank only to realize there isn't anyone. Let's hope the main tank is fast, or they'll be wiping up DPS classes off the walls after this one.
Honestly I don't know who to fault. Devs for dumbing it down, or players for not ever learning multiple roles style grouping.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
Lessening of game difficulty and hybrid classes only happened to please the solo crowd. Likewise for the more recent "every class is a healer", it is there to suit solo play.
In a modern easyMMO you are the trinity, no one else is needed.
Oh nevermind. I guess this thread was set up to bash current MMOs and players aswell. Please, don't let reason distract you from your ramblings.
ahem... "Get off my lawn you damn kids!" "We walked 10 miles to school uphill both ways in a blizzard" "We stuck pineapples up our butts. Sideways! And we liked it goddamnit!"
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
If the OP is really looking for diversity and choice in class and role types, they do not have to look very far to find it. The OP played EQOA, which had Cleric, Druid, Shaman, Enchanter, Wizard, Alchemist, Necromancer, Magician, Bard, Ranger, Rogue, Monk, Paladin, Shadowknight, and Warrior as Classes, and, since they seemed to like EQOA, they could play EQ, or EQ 2, both of which have a variety of classes, and roles, to choose from.
Also, while it had a lot of problems at launch, and really did not meet most player's expectations, Vanguard: SoH also has a lot of choice with regards to class and role types, and is now F2P.
Uhm it's pretty obvious the OP is asking why current mmorpgs are turning for very few choices in playstyle unlike older games where while it had trinity it didn't revolve around a tank a healer and dps only.
I have changed the title of my post to express the meaning behind it. It was never meant to flame anyone for using the word trinity. It was meant to explain that games were not always limited to such simplistic class design.
That being said I am merely expressing my opinions.
I love all the silly trinity threads. Obviously something thought up by younger gamers who never experienced older mmorpgs.
Trinity to me = lack of imagination.
The above statement is not meant to hurt anyones feelings it is merely an opinion and as a human I think i have that right still?
Games had way more then a trinity.
Tank
Healer
Mana-feed/Buffer (remember enchanters, they were NOT dps)
Puller
Crowd control
Rezzer (not always the healer)
Damage dealer (the most unwanted role in many games, now it is the most common filler role)
Attack Buffer (atk spd or atk output not neccesarily from a dps role)
I could go on and on.
Want to know why you do not see this as much anymore?
GAMING COMPANYS GOT LAZY!!!! They started combining this stuff into other roles so they could get away with less classes. You think Guild Wars 2 got rid of healers and tanks to be innovative? LOL! It was lazy. They gave everyone a rez. Gave everyone a heal. Gave everyone the ability to safely pull mobs. Something challenging will come along eventually that will once again REQUIRE such specified teamwork. Until then enjoy easy mode.
Edited in:
Killing the trinity:
Tank role deletion: All damage is based on getting hit or not getting hit (avoidance). All characters have the same defensive standpoint.
Healer role deletion: Take out all abilities to regen HP except a natural passive heal over time. Like real life wounds are healed.
DPS role deletion: Take out differentials in damage output. Take out enemy HP. What part of a monster you attack starts to weaken and break him down. (obviously this would be the hardest role to take out but if there was no damage differential in skills it would all be skill based and therefore having no tank or healer role naturally takes this role out as well.) It's like: Mortal Kombat as an example. Everyone fights but you don't call them DPS.
Now make me a game! go go go! :P
Well what happend was that internet became mainstream, brought in a whole lot of new people into online games, demanding to have a fun game experiance since they where very clearly not enjoying the more complex/freedom/depth you could get out of this genre.
They started to complain very loudly, guess what? developers started to listen to the majority.
Hopefully one day certain old-school players might understand this instead of this constant blaming the "suite's" or the game company's.
Game company's didn't become lazy, they just listend more to the masses.
I don't think it as much to do with lack of creativity or thinking outside the box as much as players unwilling to wait around 8 hours a day for that bard or cleric.
I fondly recall having to stop playing my favorite class and level a more desirable one in order to just find a leveling party. Until this issue is fixed, i don't see a return to the way it used to be.
I want pvp balance to remain on pvp servers, and for pve servers to get variety in abilities, if they can't figure that out just nerf mathematical numbers on pvp server 'til it works... It doesn't make sense for a warrior to cream a magic using druid or wizard, because magic is greater than physical... wouldn't magic users have knock back push and magical barriers??
Melees are also usually overpowered in games anyway... like rogues sneaking up from stealth and cc someone to death who couldn't fight back for a single second, and then vanishing to completely heal themselves a second after the kill!!
In old EQ1 casters had to meditate for like half an hour and melees with auto attack just kept going...
Casters worse enemy shouldn't be just about any melee like it used to be... auto attack was brutal lol...
Also lame ideas like cross realm zone sharing should be pvp only, please don't overcrowd zones and make boring dailies even more impossible to do due to dead mobs and waiting on spawns for solo mob kills...
Please, give us a game with huge variety of class/skills and don't nerf it after launch, its sad to remember what EQ2 and WoW used to be in vanilla... It's sad that all cool variety in pve is taken away for pvp homogenization boredom... Forget the pvp and concentrate on being a great pve game, then open up a pvp server with special rules !!
Or, go strictly pvp and choose whih way you want the game to be please... its so boring having every class be so similar (
Oh yeah, that being said, the easiest way to phase out cleric is what they did add damage shield to them self only and increase soloing so more clerics could solo, mercs also helped them a ton....
Druids and Shamans could have a rez equal to a cleric, thus you wouldn't need a cleric if all healers had the good rez.
That's what Everquest 2 did right, but taking out the permanent timer buffs was wrong, having to be in group/raid for the buffs is wrong, I love the mass group buff aa and sitting in guild lobby for buffs on EQ1...
Having to go around buffless solo is meh, cause all you get is self buffs... or whatever class your mercenary happens to be for a bit extra buff there...
Druid/Shamans were good enough healers, just need rez and it would be great!! Sort of like how any good Monk/Warrior/ShadowKnight/Paladin or even a Ranger could tank in a pinch, but tanking required skill , which is why you couldn't find them...
Finding a good tank is always a problem if the game has a challenge, because most people can't handle the stress or care to do it... That's why wow bribes with the special goodies treat bag for a required lacking class to come do dungeons through lfg finder, and it isn't even hard as a game, just people don't want to have that responsibility and role!!
I still consider Evequest 1 a Trinity: You couldn't group without a Tank (Even if that's a Ranger), a Healer (Even if that's a Ranger as well), and a Slower (Even if that's a Ranger with Epic Swords). Whether it's a Beastlord, Shaman, Enchanter, Bard, or a Ranger, you got quad hit one round killed without slow on most mob encounters. Without a healer obviously you were doomed (before mercenaries). Tank is actually the easiest thing to attain if you are willing to do old outdated content, because any raider could take hits from older outdated content in their superior gear, if you were really hard up unable to find a tank like I've had before numerous times in my raiding guild...
Tanks log on for a raid (12 of them!) , then all promptly log off, and all you got left for a bonus xp weekend no less are Rangers willing to tank, well off to outdated old content we go to farm AA!!
Tupo.. Interesting suggestion, but I would like to offer something else.. Instead of having classes defined as "group, hybrid and solo".. Give every class "group, hybrid and solo" skills.. This means that for example sake that each class will have 60% solo skills, 30% hybrid skills and 10% class defining group skills.. When you do this anyone can play any class they desire with no penality in solo'ing solo content.. This will require that the world have both both solo and group content.. Using EQ as my example, 95% of the roaming zone mobs will be soloable by any class.. However, once you come across a named mob or camp, this is where your class defining group skills come alive such as Mezing, Pulling, Rezing, CC'ing and Healing. Hybrid skills would be watered down version of the unique group skills..
I only offer this suggestion because I hate to have to switch toons back and forth based upon my desire to solo or group mobs.. Especially in a moments notice..
Most MMOs have their skill trees set up to support that. Limited respeccing gets in the way of being able to swap out regularly if you want two distinctly different builds. However, if you want to be able to switch from primarily solo character to primarily group character, check out Rift's system.
I played Rift, and as much as I liked the concept behind the soul swapping, it still failed in to my eyes.. I still want those unique class defining abilities that does NOT exist in Rift or most current games.. Back in the day a monk's ability to FD was awesome for corpse recovery, pulling and what not.. Druid's ability to Harmonize, or an Enchanters spell of Mez.. Toss in some porting, evacing, snaring, rooting, fearing, etc etc.. just don't exist in today's game.. Players got too envious of too many roles.. Back in the day, some casters did well with AOE spells, but were meh at single target damage.. While others sucked at AOE damage all together..
Today's devs have to appease to the mass player base that demand to be able to do everything by any class.. An example of this was the WoW Paladin.. Heals, DPS or Tank.. take your pick.... I want more then just 3 roles..
I have read only the OP for this thread, so if what I'm about to say has already been said, I still don't apologize, because it bears to be said, again.
If you want a real MMORPG, then you actually have to put together the expansion of the last three letters of that abbreviation, Role-Playing Game, as in Dice and Paper. You don't have all that ridiculous garbage from the first post, Rezzer, Tank, Healer... blah, blah, blah, it's all crap.
Oh, and before anyone goes and looks at the upcoming Pathfinder MMORPG, they're going to need to prove they actually want to set up an RPG before my money can begin to be earmarked.
I'm sick and tired of playing World of Warcraft in various colors, ambience, and back story's, when there's no real adherence to that back story; each of these are little more than MMOCGs, or Combat Grinds, and I'm sick of them.
I want quality, and that quality will come from placing the limitations and differentiations on classes like they have in tabletop RPGs. 'Nuff said.
Respond away, guys... I've been working with the tech support folks, here, but I never receive responses, so have fun but don't expect me to come back.
It's not just the developers to blame, mind you. It's the players and their "demands", too. Todays games are all about bragging and epeens. This problem is not related just to MMORPGs, but to most online games in general. Group play or team-work? Forget it. But if you look at our society it only makes sense. The most successfull people are those who are the most greedy, selfish and ruthless. Why should it be different in games?
1) Everything was consolidated into the now-familiar trinity to enable the quick formation of groups for instanced content.
It didn't have to be done that way: as we have seen recently with experiments in casual drop-in grouping (WAR, Rift, GW2, etc.,) when content is not instanced and abilities affect anyone in the vicinity--as opposed to restricting it to a party--you could then bring back highly-specialized buffs and other unique skills.
2) All classes were given enough of everything to make them solo-capable. I can't think of any class in any modern MMORPG that doesn't have DPS + mitigation + healing + buffs. The main difference between them is which role they are (sometimes just slightly) better at.
This I haven't seen any "solution" for, although easily switcheable multi-specs could enable solo-modes and specialized modes as needed. The closest to this I have seen lately, and also the closest to bringing back a 4th "buffer" role into the mix was with the Rift Mage Archon specialty that significantly buffed groups and debuffed mobs for very noticeable amounts--at least it was at the beginning, I don't know how that has evolved over time. It absolutely sucked at soloing but there it was no biggie since you could mix and match and develop 6 or more specs as a Mage...one of those could be your favorite solo spec.
But the real problem is that all of these creative solutions take time and are harder to implement and balance than the simple trinity games. If developers are making the decissions, you can see some of it in games here and there. But when the "suits" are calling the shots...well, you all know that's when we get yet-another-WOW-clone with the standard trinity.
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Comments
If you have a solo questing game where all the classes follow the same quests then over time the classes will gradually become more and more similar for what should be obvious reasons.
The way out is either grouping and classes designed for a specific group role or having separate solo quest lines each designed around a specific class' strengths and weaknesses.
A compromise would be to have class-based levelling where classes were split into group, hybrid and solo classes.
Group Classes
The main ones would be fighters and healers. Their levelling would be designed around grouping up and fighting mobs in dungeons and static camps which is easily done by simply making all their gear drop off mobs in those kind of places. Fighters should be able to switch between tank/dps or dps/dps and healers between heal/dps and heal/heal so these classes are sufficient to form groups with.
Hybrid Classes
These classes have the ability to level from solo activities that suit the class e.g. rangers exploring, wizards studying lore etc, or from solo-killing specific mobs in specific contexts that suit the class e.g. rangers vs natural creatures outdoors, wizards against magical creatures etc, or they could join the group classes depending on mood. In groups these classes would all be dps/utility where the utility varied with the class.
Solo classes
These classes have their own unique levelling path designed around the class. They are "solo" classes not in the sense that they are deesigned to be good at solo-killing mobs but in the sense that the path they're on is designed around the skills and abilites that class has e.g. druid quests would be scattered around the world in appropriate places for druids and would involve mobs druids had advantages against. This is similar to the swtor idea except 1) the class is the story i.e. don't try and make up a 100 good story quests per class, instead make it so when the class levels instead of getting 2-3 new spells and or abilities they get 2-3 quests to learn/find those abilities and 2) you don't spend most of your time doing the same side-quests because it's too hard to think up 100 good story quests per class. Druids fight spriggans because their barkskin spell drops off spriggans. Necros fight zombies because the necro summon zombie spell drops off zombies.
Solo classes could join groups in dungeons if they wanted but they wouldn't need to. The best group for a solo class would be someone of that same class.
Tupo.. Interesting suggestion, but I would like to offer something else.. Instead of having classes defined as "group, hybrid and solo".. Give every class "group, hybrid and solo" skills.. This means that for example sake that each class will have 60% solo skills, 30% hybrid skills and 10% class defining group skills.. When you do this anyone can play any class they desire with no penality in solo'ing solo content.. This will require that the world have both both solo and group content.. Using EQ as my example, 95% of the roaming zone mobs will be soloable by any class.. However, once you come across a named mob or camp, this is where your class defining group skills come alive such as Mezing, Pulling, Rezing, CC'ing and Healing. Hybrid skills would be watered down version of the unique group skills..
I only offer this suggestion because I hate to have to switch toons back and forth based upon my desire to solo or group mobs.. Especially in a moments notice..
Most MMOs have their skill trees set up to support that. Limited respeccing gets in the way of being able to swap out regularly if you want two distinctly different builds. However, if you want to be able to switch from primarily solo character to primarily group character, check out Rift's system.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Imo
WoW happened. It got popular, so they dumbed it down even more, so they got even more popular. So other dev's copied that.
Welcome to the decade of fools.
Second Life, Wakfu, Puzzle Pirates, and Ultima Online didn't get that memo.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
one of my favorite times in gaming was actually Vanilla WOW as a hunter in MC/BWL/AQ, I never did any dps, except on bosses, my role was as a puller, I would call out which tank I was pulling to, and as soon as I handed the mob off, I was off to get the next tank his mob. It was critical to making MC into a 1 night thing. If you had to wait for warriors to pull it took days in there. Also it was nice, that if the pull was screwed up I could either Feign, or if it failed, I would be the only casualty, now if a warrior pulls and dies, its a wipe sometimes.
It all comes down to what is the most efficient build to tackle content, or the simplest when PUGs are concerned. The number of roles is not arbitrary. The game mechanics and game modes dictate what roles are present. If the AI is exploitable, there will be tanking etc.
No one got lazy or anything... The trinity works, it is easy to setup and it is usually fairly efficient too.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I have a hard time adjusting to modern grouping. Aggro breaks loose or maybe adds come in. I'm looking around to figure out who is handling off-tank only to realize there isn't anyone. Let's hope the main tank is fast, or they'll be wiping up DPS classes off the walls after this one.
Honestly I don't know who to fault. Devs for dumbing it down, or players for not ever learning multiple roles style grouping.
Lessening of game difficulty and hybrid classes only happened to please the solo crowd. Likewise for the more recent "every class is a healer", it is there to suit solo play.
In a modern easyMMO you are the trinity, no one else is needed.
Oh nevermind. I guess this thread was set up to bash current MMOs and players aswell. Please, don't let reason distract you from your ramblings.
ahem... "Get off my lawn you damn kids!" "We walked 10 miles to school uphill both ways in a blizzard" "We stuck pineapples up our butts. Sideways! And we liked it goddamnit!"
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
If the OP is really looking for diversity and choice in class and role types, they do not have to look very far to find it.
The OP played EQOA, which had Cleric, Druid, Shaman, Enchanter, Wizard, Alchemist, Necromancer, Magician, Bard, Ranger, Rogue, Monk, Paladin, Shadowknight, and Warrior as Classes, and, since they seemed to like EQOA, they could play EQ, or EQ 2, both of which have a variety of classes, and roles, to choose from.
EverQuest Class List:
Bard, Beastlord, Berserker, Cleric, Druid, Enchanter, Magician, Monk, Necromancer, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Shadow Knight, Shaman, Warrior, Wizard.
EverQuest 2 Class List:
Berserker, Guardian, Bruiser, Monk, Paladin, Shadowknight, Warlock, Wizard, Coercer, Illusionist, Conjuror, Necromancer, Fury, Warden, Inquisitor, Templar, Defiler, Mystic, Dirge, Troubador, Assassin, Ranger, Brigand, Swashbuckler, Beastlord.
Also, while it had a lot of problems at launch, and really did not meet most player's expectations, Vanguard: SoH also has a lot of choice with regards to class and role types, and is now F2P.
Vanguard:SoH Class List:
Warrior, Paladin, Dread Knight, Ranger, Rogue, Monk, Bard, Cleric, Shaman, Disciple, Blood Mage, Sorcerer, Druid, Psionicist, Necromancer.
The OP also makes mention of FFXI, which is still alive and kicking, and offers a huge variety of Job's (Classes) to choose from.
FFXI Job List:
Warrior, Monk, White Mage, Black Mage, Red Mage, Thief, Paladin, Dark Knight, Beastmaster, Bard, Ranger, Summoner, Samurai, Ninja, Dragoon, Blue Mage, Corsair, Puppetmaster, Dancer, Scholar, Geomancer, Rune Fencer.
So, in reality, what the OP seem's to be pining for, does still exist.
The only real question is, why, with all that class and role diversity available, is the op here, complaining about the lack of it?
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
Well what happend was that internet became mainstream, brought in a whole lot of new people into online games, demanding to have a fun game experiance since they where very clearly not enjoying the more complex/freedom/depth you could get out of this genre.
They started to complain very loudly, guess what? developers started to listen to the majority.
Hopefully one day certain old-school players might understand this instead of this constant blaming the "suite's" or the game company's.
Game company's didn't become lazy, they just listend more to the masses.
I don't think it as much to do with lack of creativity or thinking outside the box as much as players unwilling to wait around 8 hours a day for that bard or cleric.
I fondly recall having to stop playing my favorite class and level a more desirable one in order to just find a leveling party. Until this issue is fixed, i don't see a return to the way it used to be.
I want pvp balance to remain on pvp servers, and for pve servers to get variety in abilities, if they can't figure that out just nerf mathematical numbers on pvp server 'til it works... It doesn't make sense for a warrior to cream a magic using druid or wizard, because magic is greater than physical... wouldn't magic users have knock back push and magical barriers??
Melees are also usually overpowered in games anyway... like rogues sneaking up from stealth and cc someone to death who couldn't fight back for a single second, and then vanishing to completely heal themselves a second after the kill!!
In old EQ1 casters had to meditate for like half an hour and melees with auto attack just kept going...
Casters worse enemy shouldn't be just about any melee like it used to be... auto attack was brutal lol...
Also lame ideas like cross realm zone sharing should be pvp only, please don't overcrowd zones and make boring dailies even more impossible to do due to dead mobs and waiting on spawns for solo mob kills...
Please, give us a game with huge variety of class/skills and don't nerf it after launch, its sad to remember what EQ2 and WoW used to be in vanilla... It's sad that all cool variety in pve is taken away for pvp homogenization boredom... Forget the pvp and concentrate on being a great pve game, then open up a pvp server with special rules !!
Or, go strictly pvp and choose whih way you want the game to be please... its so boring having every class be so similar (
Oh yeah, that being said, the easiest way to phase out cleric is what they did add damage shield to them self only and increase soloing so more clerics could solo, mercs also helped them a ton....
Druids and Shamans could have a rez equal to a cleric, thus you wouldn't need a cleric if all healers had the good rez.
That's what Everquest 2 did right, but taking out the permanent timer buffs was wrong, having to be in group/raid for the buffs is wrong, I love the mass group buff aa and sitting in guild lobby for buffs on EQ1...
Having to go around buffless solo is meh, cause all you get is self buffs... or whatever class your mercenary happens to be for a bit extra buff there...
Druid/Shamans were good enough healers, just need rez and it would be great!! Sort of like how any good Monk/Warrior/ShadowKnight/Paladin or even a Ranger could tank in a pinch, but tanking required skill , which is why you couldn't find them...
Finding a good tank is always a problem if the game has a challenge, because most people can't handle the stress or care to do it... That's why wow bribes with the special goodies treat bag for a required lacking class to come do dungeons through lfg finder, and it isn't even hard as a game, just people don't want to have that responsibility and role!!
I still consider Evequest 1 a Trinity: You couldn't group without a Tank (Even if that's a Ranger), a Healer (Even if that's a Ranger as well), and a Slower (Even if that's a Ranger with Epic Swords). Whether it's a Beastlord, Shaman, Enchanter, Bard, or a Ranger, you got quad hit one round killed without slow on most mob encounters. Without a healer obviously you were doomed (before mercenaries). Tank is actually the easiest thing to attain if you are willing to do old outdated content, because any raider could take hits from older outdated content in their superior gear, if you were really hard up unable to find a tank like I've had before numerous times in my raiding guild...
Tanks log on for a raid (12 of them!) , then all promptly log off, and all you got left for a bonus xp weekend no less are Rangers willing to tank, well off to outdated old content we go to farm AA!!
I played Rift, and as much as I liked the concept behind the soul swapping, it still failed in to my eyes.. I still want those unique class defining abilities that does NOT exist in Rift or most current games.. Back in the day a monk's ability to FD was awesome for corpse recovery, pulling and what not.. Druid's ability to Harmonize, or an Enchanters spell of Mez.. Toss in some porting, evacing, snaring, rooting, fearing, etc etc.. just don't exist in today's game.. Players got too envious of too many roles.. Back in the day, some casters did well with AOE spells, but were meh at single target damage.. While others sucked at AOE damage all together..
Today's devs have to appease to the mass player base that demand to be able to do everything by any class.. An example of this was the WoW Paladin.. Heals, DPS or Tank.. take your pick.... I want more then just 3 roles..
This is obvious. :-)
I have read only the OP for this thread, so if what I'm about to say has already been said, I still don't apologize, because it bears to be said, again.
If you want a real MMORPG, then you actually have to put together the expansion of the last three letters of that abbreviation, Role-Playing Game, as in Dice and Paper. You don't have all that ridiculous garbage from the first post, Rezzer, Tank, Healer... blah, blah, blah, it's all crap.
Oh, and before anyone goes and looks at the upcoming Pathfinder MMORPG, they're going to need to prove they actually want to set up an RPG before my money can begin to be earmarked.
I'm sick and tired of playing World of Warcraft in various colors, ambience, and back story's, when there's no real adherence to that back story; each of these are little more than MMOCGs, or Combat Grinds, and I'm sick of them.
I want quality, and that quality will come from placing the limitations and differentiations on classes like they have in tabletop RPGs. 'Nuff said.
Respond away, guys... I've been working with the tech support folks, here, but I never receive responses, so have fun but don't expect me to come back.
Two things happened:
1) Everything was consolidated into the now-familiar trinity to enable the quick formation of groups for instanced content.
It didn't have to be done that way: as we have seen recently with experiments in casual drop-in grouping (WAR, Rift, GW2, etc.,) when content is not instanced and abilities affect anyone in the vicinity--as opposed to restricting it to a party--you could then bring back highly-specialized buffs and other unique skills.
2) All classes were given enough of everything to make them solo-capable. I can't think of any class in any modern MMORPG that doesn't have DPS + mitigation + healing + buffs. The main difference between them is which role they are (sometimes just slightly) better at.
This I haven't seen any "solution" for, although easily switcheable multi-specs could enable solo-modes and specialized modes as needed. The closest to this I have seen lately, and also the closest to bringing back a 4th "buffer" role into the mix was with the Rift Mage Archon specialty that significantly buffed groups and debuffed mobs for very noticeable amounts--at least it was at the beginning, I don't know how that has evolved over time. It absolutely sucked at soloing but there it was no biggie since you could mix and match and develop 6 or more specs as a Mage...one of those could be your favorite solo spec.
But the real problem is that all of these creative solutions take time and are harder to implement and balance than the simple trinity games. If developers are making the decissions, you can see some of it in games here and there. But when the "suits" are calling the shots...well, you all know that's when we get yet-another-WOW-clone with the standard trinity.
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