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OP while i do tend to agree with the end result is disagree with your premiss.
It wasn't the dedicated roles that made these classes/combat style work, its was the differentiated roles.
While eq1 did a good job , id argue daoc did far better. With multiple classes each side mix and matched abilitites .. who had what between its classes (some what 40 or 41 something close to that) with many of them having much in common spread throught the different classes (with some unquie flavor thrown in). In this daoc exampled its not that you need to have a healer that onyl heals, and a buffer that only buffs. DAoc shown that if you have diversity of ability/ effectiveness that you had tyo trade for other things then you build a large and robust system that we both enjoy.
So an example, Druids (Hib) are prime healers, prime stat buffers, and have a pet and dot/dps line with some minor cc. You could obtain great heals and great stat buffs but your dps/pet/rooting ability would be less. This guy healed. Healers (mid) you could heal great, CC kings, and power (mana) and attack speed buff. Again pick two to do well with. Ok and Cleric (alb) great heals, good stat buffs (different ones in some cases), a crazy dps option (pick two but the dps optiosn are always a bit more demanding) .
Thast just one of the match ups, a good note is that the HEALER has the nice short term attackspeed buff avalible where as the other two do not, you'll find the same abilities on other classes for each of those sides. In this way you can see you get what you where talking about largely, You have a role. But for the most part you do always soak, heal, or dps some. This is good. Its good to given people very needed group/raid roles, plus provided them with active roles . So like you have chanting classes in the game also that have super short term aoe buffs and you could twist them so buy replaying them you could keep 2-3 of these group buffs up its viable but its also helpful to toss in heals and cc when needed. Keeping them more active then a bot.
This is what i am lookign for differentiated classes and roles (im super sick of having 2+ sides and making them the same classes, thats so lazy). They ahve optinunities to make entire other sides new combat experinces, largely the same (side-wise) but with marked differnces individually. Its also worth noting many of the options are unquie, but most of the core roleshave counterparts mixed throught the classes (heals, tank, dps, range, aoe, buffs, cc, then a giant and wild mixed bag of just for you).
While this was long i feel like its needed, i want that type of game the type of game your asking for, classes don't have to fit only one role, they don't have to simply soak (there were also so many stop gaps in that game, classes with support abilities that had less then amazing heals, or takyish dps with some magic to extend their range beyond melee) What we need is real diversity. Wow had this at one time, when it was better shadow priest played a role, shamans too, etc. It was always far weaker and far worse then the older games, but at least to some degree there. but like the failure of GW2 is a good example
No trinity , they took this and made it no anything no heals, no support, and no tank. There are specs and lines for these, but they are all far worse then just pure dps specs. There are not roles no strengths or weakness in that game only dps. In beta it had at least some level of ability to support a bit (while soaking and dpsing) and soak some (while dpsing and supporting) but they nerffed that out , because it was effective . They basiclly wanted to make anythign other than pure dps uselss and so they did. This si just dumb. You can say no longer will you sit back in just heal, instead youll heal your abilities will largely be to heal and buff but youll also dps a lot also and soak some at the same time . This is fine i would call that the death of the trinity , but no you cannot even do that in ANET's mind everyone must be the same reguardless of spec... so what was the point in the first place. Why even play an mmo.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Come at me bro! Gimme a tank that can AOE healz and haz cc abilities; I wanna be able to PWN and facerollol with me i-win button and be the greatest hero in me server. Any game that doesn't haz this is epic fail.
That been said, I agree with the OP. These days, game directors will say it's too hard. Maybe they are right if you follow the money.
Hero EvermoreGuild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.
Originally posted by Lizardone Come at me bro! Gimme a tank that can AOE healz and haz cc abilities; I wanna be able to PWN and facerollol with me i-win button and be the greatest hero in me server. Any game that doesn't haz this is epic fail. That been said, I agree with the OP. These days, game directors will say it's too hard. Maybe they are right if you follow the money.
HAHAHAHA! Love it!
I understand it's hard to do but i think taking out the pvp aspect of a game makes this much more possible. Not having to balance vs players allows for much more class diversity in PvE. Least that is what I believe EQ had going for it. I don't think devs need to make pvp a thing in every game and I hope some can omit it with that in mind.
really I believe the reason class diversity have been reduced, is due to players complaining, always you have people figure out what is the most effective, making it very hard for the "unwanted" classes redundant, hardly anyone are going to play the classes that only are needed once in awhile.
you can call the developers lazy, but really all they would get for their hard work is people complaining about how their roles aint needed enough, only getting filler roles, when people get tired of waiting for those classes they do want.
that said I do miss the time where fights were more about tactics/timing, rather than based on fast reactions, especially now when my reaction time is getting longer, can really feel it is a long time ago Ive been playing, non casual, action games...must be the "lack of training" ; )
Yeah I agree but just give us 50 classes in X game. If they complain ignore it. There are 49 more classes they can play if it doesn't suit them
Am i overzealous? HECK YEAH!
Is my idea awesome! *CHEST BUMP*
Originally posted by Lizardone Come at me bro! Gimme a tank that can AOE healz and haz cc abilities;
You kinda described what "tank" used to mean in MMOs about 10-12 years ago.
EDIT: A related poll from about 3 years ago: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/3195190#3195190
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
If you have a solo questing game where all the classes follow the same quests then over time the classes will gradually become more and more similar for what should be obvious reasons.
The way out is either grouping and classes designed for a specific group role or having separate solo quest lines each designed around a specific class' strengths and weaknesses.
A compromise would be to have class-based levelling where classes were split into group, hybrid and solo classes.
The main ones would be fighters and healers. Their levelling would be designed around grouping up and fighting mobs in dungeons and static camps which is easily done by simply making all their gear drop off mobs in those kind of places. Fighters should be able to switch between tank/dps or dps/dps and healers between heal/dps and heal/heal so these classes are sufficient to form groups with.
These classes have the ability to level from solo activities that suit the class e.g. rangers exploring, wizards studying lore etc, or from solo-killing specific mobs in specific contexts that suit the class e.g. rangers vs natural creatures outdoors, wizards against magical creatures etc, or they could join the group classes depending on mood. In groups these classes would all be dps/utility where the utility varied with the class.
These classes have their own unique levelling path designed around the class. They are "solo" classes not in the sense that they are deesigned to be good at solo-killing mobs but in the sense that the path they're on is designed around the skills and abilites that class has e.g. druid quests would be scattered around the world in appropriate places for druids and would involve mobs druids had advantages against. This is similar to the swtor idea except 1) the class is the story i.e. don't try and make up a 100 good story quests per class, instead make it so when the class levels instead of getting 2-3 new spells and or abilities they get 2-3 quests to learn/find those abilities and 2) you don't spend most of your time doing the same side-quests because it's too hard to think up 100 good story quests per class. Druids fight spriggans because their barkskin spell drops off spriggans. Necros fight zombies because the necro summon zombie spell drops off zombies.
Solo classes could join groups in dungeons if they wanted but they wouldn't need to. The best group for a solo class would be someone of that same class.
Tupo.. Interesting suggestion, but I would like to offer something else.. Instead of having classes defined as "group, hybrid and solo".. Give every class "group, hybrid and solo" skills.. This means that for example sake that each class will have 60% solo skills, 30% hybrid skills and 10% class defining group skills.. When you do this anyone can play any class they desire with no penality in solo'ing solo content.. This will require that the world have both both solo and group content.. Using EQ as my example, 95% of the roaming zone mobs will be soloable by any class.. However, once you come across a named mob or camp, this is where your class defining group skills come alive such as Mezing, Pulling, Rezing, CC'ing and Healing. Hybrid skills would be watered down version of the unique group skills..
I only offer this suggestion because I hate to have to switch toons back and forth based upon my desire to solo or group mobs.. Especially in a moments notice..
Originally posted by Rydeson Tupo.. Interesting suggestion, but I would like to offer something else.. Instead of having classes defined as "group, hybrid and solo".. Give every class "group, hybrid and solo" skills.. This means that for example sake that each class will have 60% solo skills, 30% hybrid skills and 10% class defining group skills.. When you do this anyone can play any class they desire with no penality in solo'ing solo content.. This will require that the world have both both solo and group content.. Using EQ as my example, 95% of the roaming zone mobs will be soloable by any class.. However, once you come across a named mob or camp, this is where your class defining group skills come alive such as Mezing, Pulling, Rezing, CC'ing and Healing. Hybrid skills would be watered down version of the unique group skills.. I only offer this suggestion because I hate to have to switch toons back and forth based upon my desire to solo or group mobs.. Especially in a moments notice..
Most MMOs have their skill trees set up to support that. Limited respeccing gets in the way of being able to swap out regularly if you want two distinctly different builds. However, if you want to be able to switch from primarily solo character to primarily group character, check out Rift's system.
WoW happened. It got popular, so they dumbed it down even more, so they got even more popular. So other dev's copied that.
Welcome to the decade of fools.
Originally posted by daltanious quest hubs are a must
Second Life, Wakfu, Puzzle Pirates, and Ultima Online didn't get that memo.
one of my favorite times in gaming was actually Vanilla WOW as a hunter in MC/BWL/AQ, I never did any dps, except on bosses, my role was as a puller, I would call out which tank I was pulling to, and as soon as I handed the mob off, I was off to get the next tank his mob. It was critical to making MC into a 1 night thing. If you had to wait for warriors to pull it took days in there. Also it was nice, that if the pull was screwed up I could either Feign, or if it failed, I would be the only casualty, now if a warrior pulls and dies, its a wipe sometimes.
It all comes down to what is the most efficient build to tackle content, or the simplest when PUGs are concerned. The number of roles is not arbitrary. The game mechanics and game modes dictate what roles are present. If the AI is exploitable, there will be tanking etc.
No one got lazy or anything... The trinity works, it is easy to setup and it is usually fairly efficient too.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I have a hard time adjusting to modern grouping. Aggro breaks loose or maybe adds come in. I'm looking around to figure out who is handling off-tank only to realize there isn't anyone. Let's hope the main tank is fast, or they'll be wiping up DPS classes off the walls after this one.
Honestly I don't know who to fault. Devs for dumbing it down, or players for not ever learning multiple roles style grouping.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
Lessening of game difficulty and hybrid classes only happened to please the solo crowd. Likewise for the more recent "every class is a healer", it is there to suit solo play.
In a modern easyMMO you are the trinity, no one else is needed.
You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!
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Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy? :P
Oh nevermind. I guess this thread was set up to bash current MMOs and players aswell. Please, don't let reason distract you from your ramblings.
ahem... "Get off my lawn you damn kids!" "We walked 10 miles to school uphill both ways in a blizzard" "We stuck pineapples up our butts. Sideways! And we liked it goddamnit!"
If the OP is really looking for diversity and choice in class and role types, they do not have to look very far to find it.The OP played EQOA, which had Cleric, Druid, Shaman, Enchanter, Wizard, Alchemist, Necromancer, Magician, Bard, Ranger, Rogue, Monk, Paladin, Shadowknight, and Warrior as Classes, and, since they seemed to like EQOA, they could play EQ, or EQ 2, both of which have a variety of classes, and roles, to choose from.EverQuest Class List:
Bard, Beastlord, Berserker, Cleric, Druid, Enchanter, Magician, Monk, Necromancer, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Shadow Knight, Shaman, Warrior, Wizard.EverQuest 2 Class List:
Berserker, Guardian, Bruiser, Monk, Paladin, Shadowknight, Warlock, Wizard, Coercer, Illusionist, Conjuror, Necromancer, Fury, Warden, Inquisitor, Templar, Defiler, Mystic, Dirge, Troubador, Assassin, Ranger, Brigand, Swashbuckler, Beastlord.Also, while it had a lot of problems at launch, and really did not meet most player's expectations, Vanguard: SoH also has a lot of choice with regards to class and role types, and is now F2P.Vanguard:SoH Class List:
Warrior, Paladin, Dread Knight, Ranger, Rogue, Monk, Bard, Cleric, Shaman, Disciple, Blood Mage, Sorcerer, Druid, Psionicist, Necromancer.The OP also makes mention of FFXI, which is still alive and kicking, and offers a huge variety of Job's (Classes) to choose from.FFXI Job List:
Warrior, Monk, White Mage, Black Mage, Red Mage, Thief, Paladin, Dark Knight, Beastmaster, Bard, Ranger, Summoner, Samurai, Ninja, Dragoon, Blue Mage, Corsair, Puppetmaster, Dancer, Scholar, Geomancer, Rune Fencer.So, in reality, what the OP seem's to be pining for, does still exist.The only real question is, why, with all that class and role diversity available, is the op here, complaining about the lack of it?
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
quest hubs aren't a 'must' but a mix of hubs and non-hubs is ideal.
quest hubs facilitate locating others. it's nice in MMOs to have crowded areas and then desolate areas.
I always took a trip through Balands at level 40. empited all bags, made sure I have my professions ready and up to speed, and basically prepared for a few hours of wondering around a desert with no quests or NPCs just gathering and killing/looting with minimal NPC or player interraction.
it's nice to do it once or twice every 20 or so levels, but doing it the whole time...bleh.
Originally posted by HeroEvermore I have changed the title of my post to express the meaning behind it. It was never meant to flame anyone for using the word trinity. It was meant to explain that games were not always limited to such simplistic class design. That being said I am merely expressing my opinions. I love all the silly trinity threads. Obviously something thought up by younger gamers who never experienced older mmorpgs. Trinity to me = lack of imagination. The above statement is not meant to hurt anyones feelings it is merely an opinion and as a human I think i have that right still? Games had way more then a trinity. Tank Healer Mana-feed/Buffer (remember enchanters, they were NOT dps) Puller Crowd control Rezzer (not always the healer) Damage dealer (the most unwanted role in many games, now it is the most common filler role) Attack Buffer (atk spd or atk output not neccesarily from a dps role) I could go on and on. Want to know why you do not see this as much anymore? GAMING COMPANYS GOT LAZY!!!! They started combining this stuff into other roles so they could get away with less classes. You think Guild Wars 2 got rid of healers and tanks to be innovative? LOL! It was lazy. They gave everyone a rez. Gave everyone a heal. Gave everyone the ability to safely pull mobs. Something challenging will come along eventually that will once again REQUIRE such specified teamwork. Until then enjoy easy mode. Edited in: Killing the trinity: Tank role deletion: All damage is based on getting hit or not getting hit (avoidance). All characters have the same defensive standpoint. Healer role deletion: Take out all abilities to regen HP except a natural passive heal over time. Like real life wounds are healed. DPS role deletion: Take out differentials in damage output. Take out enemy HP. What part of a monster you attack starts to weaken and break him down. (obviously this would be the hardest role to take out but if there was no damage differential in skills it would all be skill based and therefore having no tank or healer role naturally takes this role out as well.) It's like: Mortal Kombat as an example. Everyone fights but you don't call them DPS. Now make me a game! go go go! :P
Well what happend was that internet became mainstream, brought in a whole lot of new people into online games, demanding to have a fun game experiance since they where very clearly not enjoying the more complex/freedom/depth you could get out of this genre.
They started to complain very loudly, guess what? developers started to listen to the majority.
Hopefully one day certain old-school players might understand this instead of this constant blaming the "suite's" or the game company's.
Game company's didn't become lazy, they just listend more to the masses.
I don't think it as much to do with lack of creativity or thinking outside the box as much as players unwilling to wait around 8 hours a day for that bard or cleric.
I fondly recall having to stop playing my favorite class and level a more desirable one in order to just find a leveling party. Until this issue is fixed, i don't see a return to the way it used to be.