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What happened to classes in games? Formerly: It was never a trinity.

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  • AxehandleAxehandle Member Posts: 147
    Originally posted by Zyzra

    I would love to spend my entire time in an MMORPG of the future just hitting a monster once so that the rest of the group can do everything else.

    Pulling sounds amazing.

    Buffing is a great thing as well.  I remember how much buffs helped, and how their durations of an hour or so were far too short so we had to keep one of our group slots filled with someone who followed us around, collected loot to keep, and after a while of yelling buffed us again.

     

    And crowd control, amazing, I can't imagine how groups could work without a player who all they did was control the crowds.  They have to be some sort of amazing magic user, but not a Mage because mages use magic and they are DPS.  The CC uses magic too, but can't do damage.  It would be silly to think that someone who could use magic could do both.

    Don't take things so literal he was generalizing about how there wasn't just the tank who's only job is to stand still and soak up damage, the dps who's only job is to deal damage and occasionally run away from bad shit (fire, mobs etc) and healers that heal through the damage taken.

     

    Once a tank had to seriously worry about correct positioning to maximize the chance of success or making sure the boss wasn't able to cleave or aoe healers and to a certain degree dps. The other roles were much more depended upon also for things like managing cc and dishing out high dps while lots of movement was required. 

     

    If I said geez that mmo was shit I don't mean the game was literally a piece of poo oozing out of my optical drive, I would mean it's a bad game.

  • LatronusLatronus Member Posts: 692
    Originally posted by DoomsDay01
    Originally posted by Zyzra

    I would love to spend my entire time in an MMORPG of the future just hitting a monster once so that the rest of the group can do everything else.

    Pulling sounds amazing.

    Buffing is a great thing as well.  I remember how much buffs helped, and how their durations of an hour or so were far too short so we had to keep one of our group slots filled with someone who followed us around, collected loot to keep, and after a while of yelling buffed us again.

     

    And crowd control, amazing, I can't imagine how groups could work without a player who all they did was control the crowds.  They have to be some sort of amazing magic user, but not a Mage because mages use magic and they are DPS.  The CC uses magic too, but can't do damage.  It would be silly to think that someone who could use magic could do both.

    There was an art to pulling. It wasnt simply run up and hit a mob and bring it back. There was also the splitting of the groups of mobs that would want to come at you. Something you dont have in todays games, they all come or nothing comes. Nowadays you have the wonderful leash system where everything just snaps back to its area. Try having mobs remember you and follow you across the zone till you either died or left the area. The leash system is in my opinion the worst system ever made.

    People love buffs. It makes them more powerful. Usually classes that could buff could also do damage, just not nearly as well as a dps class.

    I watched my friend play his enchanter on many occasions soloing stuff that people simply couldnt solo. Could they do damage? Some, yes, but could they charm a creature and have it do damage for them? Hell yeah they can. The enchanter was the hardest class to play but if the person playing the class knew it well, they could usually do stuff that other classes only dreamed of. So, please, continue telling us how you think these classes are useless and we will continue to laugh at you for being ignorant about how these classes could do so much more then you think.

    Ahh the art of pulling mobs in EQ with a Monk.  I loved the job.  Hit a mob and run back to the group and FD right at the tank's feet.  Wait a couple seconds, get up and burn the mob down until about 10-20% health depending and run off looking for the next mob.  The pace depended upon our ability to keep the action going without bringing back too much for us to handle.

    Things changed with WoW and EQ2.  Some of the changes were good but the change to a simplier "trinity" wasn't so good IMHO.  Oh well, what ya gonna do except hope and pray that someone eventually gets away from tank/spank/heal.

    image
  • HeroEvermoreHeroEvermore Member Posts: 672

    I would say that enchanter was one of the best designed classes ever made in mmorpgs. It could be AMAZING solo but where it truly shined was in the ability to make 4+ people twice as efficient. Much more effective then adding a DPS.

    I merely made this topic to point out classes that feel "missing" in games today. I hope to see more of them in the future.

    Also to note: I do not find "classless" games filling that niche at all because I am yet to see a game with such a mechanic that offers you the ability to be truly classless (nameless maybe but not classless). You follow a tree or pick here n there but there is a PATH and that in itself defeats the purpose.

    Hero Evermore
    Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
    Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.

  • KnaveSkyeKnaveSkye Member UncommonPosts: 137
    All this talk of EQ...I remember playing a rogue and being invited to groups because they needed a rogue to open doors that requires a high level of the Pick Lock skill. What other game today would you bring a class along because you need them to open a damn door? Sometimes you even got paid for your services! How many a druid made some decent money offering ports at the druid rings before the Planes of power came along and if you tipped well might throw a Spirit of the Wolf your way? I miss those days. 
  • HeroEvermoreHeroEvermore Member Posts: 672
    Yeah Knave. true that. or how about shammys selling there uber buffs or giving them away to a random lowbie and making him feel like a god. Good ol days. I didnt play much eq1 but eqoa was the same class concept.

    Hero Evermore
    Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
    Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by HeroEvermore

    That is a horrible article lol. Everquest did NOT have the trinity. You can say oh but i liked these 3 classes in my party best so that has to be the trinity. NEGATIVE. Not even close. Bad article :P

    Noticed you spammed that article in several posts. Least spam something knowledgable. Anyone that says EQ was restricted to trinity is WRONG WRONG WRONG> Thanks for playing, come again.

    Yeah, what does Richard Bartle know about the history of online gaming, anyways! image

     

    Sometimes I think y'all don't really want to ever learn anything around here, rather just repeat what you want to believe over and over until someone else actually believes it.

     

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • VhalnVhaln Member Posts: 3,159

    I think the trinity concept is just about reducing role diversity to its three most vital elements.  Crowd control helped, off-tanking helped, buffs helped.. but in a trinity game, you NEED healing, tanking, and damage.  Everything else is a bonus, but not good enough, if you lack any of those three.  

     

    It's also about role overlap, and how you can have classes with multiple roles, but usually not overlapping in any of those three areas.  e.g. a Healer can do crowd control and healing, but not DPS and healing, or tanking and healing, as multiple trinity roles can too easily be OP.

     

    Also, in terms of overlapping roles, in a well balanced trinity based game, every class should be able to do one of those three roles, along with the other stuff.  Buffer that can switch to a pure healer role, if needed, or a crowd controller that can effectively focus on DPS instead, if needed.

     

    So you have all these other roles, but for these reasons, at its core, it's essentially still a trinity.

    When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.

  • HeroEvermoreHeroEvermore Member Posts: 672
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by HeroEvermore

    That is a horrible article lol. Everquest did NOT have the trinity. You can say oh but i liked these 3 classes in my party best so that has to be the trinity. NEGATIVE. Not even close. Bad article :P

    Noticed you spammed that article in several posts. Least spam something knowledgable. Anyone that says EQ was restricted to trinity is WRONG WRONG WRONG> Thanks for playing, come again.

    Yeah, what does Richard Bartle know about the history of online gaming, anyways! image

     

    Sometimes I think y'all don't really want to ever learn anything around here, rather just repeat what you want to believe over and over until someone else actually believes it.

     

     

    He only knows his perspective as DO WE ALL. If you believe everything someone writes though...giggle..

    I am a free thinker. I felt that article was pretty generic and offered no real insight. Just same ol stuff about trinity blagh blagh.

    Hero Evermore
    Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
    Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by HeroEvermore
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by HeroEvermore

    That is a horrible article lol. Everquest did NOT have the trinity. You can say oh but i liked these 3 classes in my party best so that has to be the trinity. NEGATIVE. Not even close. Bad article :P

    Noticed you spammed that article in several posts. Least spam something knowledgable. Anyone that says EQ was restricted to trinity is WRONG WRONG WRONG> Thanks for playing, come again.

    Yeah, what does Richard Bartle know about the history of online gaming, anyways! image

    Sometimes I think y'all don't really want to ever learn anything around here, rather just repeat what you want to believe over and over until someone else actually believes it.

    He only knows his perspective as DO WE ALL. If you believe everything someone writes though...giggle..

    I am a free thinker. I felt that article was pretty generic and offered no real insight. Just same ol stuff about trinity blagh blagh.

    So, it's the latter. Got it.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • Oracle_FefeOracle_Fefe Member CommonPosts: 221
    Originally posted by HeroEvermore

    Obviously you never played an enchanter type role that is completely designated to feed buffs and mana and not do ANY damage.

     Honestly. No, I have not. I've only started MMO's in 2004 and regardless of my game, all of the roles that have been similar to such has been support or done pre/after battles. May you please direct me to a particular class in a game that does that? I'm not questioning in a demeaning way but just for example.

    You also have never played a puller in ffxi (vanilla). Whos only job was to grab a mob, drop it off at a tank, then go get another mob. Your thoughts are tiny like the games that come out lately. We want big thinkers. Thanks for playing :P

     No, I have not. However, tell me what happens when the puller is finished "pulling" or when there are no more mobs. Do they pull mobs already on the tank if they don't require that? Do they sit around and do nothing until the next thing happens? Usually they do and start doing some damage alongside the rest of their teammates like DPS.

    Also, the tone in which you type is quite disrespectful. I didn't come to this thread to disrespect, but to disagree. I hope that your next post attacks my words, not my person/ality.

    You exact thoughts are honestly what the gaming companys think you want and that is why class diversity in games is so lame now. Thank you for proving my point lol.

     Read above comment.

    Why not just make my class the tank/healer/dps and not even make parties in games. Great idea /sarcasm

     I didn't say that all classes are Tank/Healer/DPS, but that most, if not nearly every role in games usually go down to a Tank/Healer/DPS role in offtime. If you're buffing everyone on a team and you have a heal-over-time. Then why not apply the heal over time? You're practically being a healer. If you pulled a mob out of the danger zone for a tank to pick up and he's the only mob, then start DPSing. Once again I'm not saying that you can't CC a mob all day, but that the trinity is called the trinity because they are considered major roles that most other roles fall into. Generalization. Think having specific papers in three different folders.

    WHEN GAMES BEGAN-

    I thought classes would grow and become infinity. Now they are even less then a trinity. A true waste of imagination.

    Classes, roles, and the trinity I (!) consider extremely different things (Roles and Trinity are subjective to opinion.) Classes can for sure be infinite. Roles, depending on the variety of classes. However, most of them will fall within the category of dealing damage, soaking damage,  healing damage, or, since you've gave me another outlet, maximizing/minimizing damage done (Through the form of buffs.)

     

    Again, in every post I do I say it's my opinion because it is. I'm not attempting to enforce the way I think upon you but to give my own view onto the topic.

  • FearumFearum Member UncommonPosts: 1,175
    Those days are long gone, I was depressed when moving to WoW from DAoC to find out that they combined some of the classes or did away with them. I was under the illusion that each new game would expand class selection more and more but it went the opposite way. With each new game that came out you got less and less class definition until now you can be everything in one package. I guess the only way to go now is back to having many different classes, can't really narrow them down anymore unless you let everyone become a god.
  • XxGrimmxXXxGrimmxX Member UncommonPosts: 223
    Really? It was NEVER a trinity... Just making sure.
  • RossbossRossboss Member Posts: 240
    I do like the idea of hyper specialization like that. However, since MMORPGs allow players to access content at their own speed, they have to support independant play styles. Players have to be able to progress with the game regardless of other players interaction. It's like saying that single player RPGs can only have "Jack of All Trades" based archetypes because players can only play by themselves and therefore must need all types of abilities.

    I played WoW up until WotLK, played RoM for 2 years and now Rift.
    I am F2P player. I support games when I feel they deserve my money and I want the items enough.
    I don't troll, and I don't take kindly to trolls.

  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,769
    Originally posted by HeroEvermore

    That is a horrible article lol. Everquest did NOT have the trinity. You can say oh but i liked these 3 classes in my party best so that has to be the trinity. NEGATIVE. Not even close. Bad article :P

     

    Noticed you spammed that article in several posts. Least spam something knowledgable. Anyone that says EQ was restricted to trinity is WRONG WRONG WRONG> Thanks for playing, come again.

     So you know better than Richard Bartle?

    Are you aware of who he is?

    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

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    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

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  • Skeeter50Skeeter50 Member UncommonPosts: 147
    "Casual"  is to blame.
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by Zyzra

    I mean what's next, people asking for half their raid being filled with one of each profession - such as fishing, jewelcrafting, and cooking?

    "Guys we can't take down this undead warlord boss, we don't have a chef."

    While that's getting a bit silly, I'd like to see more MMOs with more expanded roles such as commander, logistics, recon/intel or seige/machinery operator. The roles exist outside of trinity-based games. UO, SB, Vendetta and EVE are some examples of games with one or more of them. Most of those roles are not needed in your average MMO due to either the mechanics of combat or the static nature of the game world.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • HeroEvermoreHeroEvermore Member Posts: 672
    Originally posted by waynejr2
    Originally posted by HeroEvermore

    That is a horrible article lol. Everquest did NOT have the trinity. You can say oh but i liked these 3 classes in my party best so that has to be the trinity. NEGATIVE. Not even close. Bad article :P

     

    Noticed you spammed that article in several posts. Least spam something knowledgable. Anyone that says EQ was restricted to trinity is WRONG WRONG WRONG> Thanks for playing, come again.

     So you know better than Richard Bartle?

    Are you aware of who he is?

    I know all. Duh. I beat secret of mana and had every final weapon. Didn't you see my avatar? :P (giggle)

    In case you don't know who he is though heres the wiki I wrote on him.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Bartle

    Hero Evermore
    Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
    Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.

  • HeroEvermoreHeroEvermore Member Posts: 672
    How does a recon/intel work? That sounds pretty cool.

    Hero Evermore
    Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
    Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.

  • HeroEvermoreHeroEvermore Member Posts: 672
    Originally posted by Skeeter50
    "Casual"  is to blame.

    Yeah. Casual sells more. Sure doesn't have the retention though. FFXI is pretty hardcore, it's still going strong.

     

    As to the person who asked what a puller did when he wasn't pulling in FFXI. He was always pulling. He never was with the party except to drop off mobs. 24/7 go get em tiger! A role that was so utterly unselfish in parties and our gratitude of the pro pullers was never ending. FFXI can be a dangerous game. A bad puller can set you back days of xp.

    Hero Evermore
    Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
    Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.

  • HeroEvermoreHeroEvermore Member Posts: 672
    Cool. Sounds fun. Eve isnt really my kind of game but i love that general idea. if dungeons were different every time like in some games I could see that incorporated into an mmorpg setting as well. Definately sounds like a very important role though. Just like scouts in the military. Can make or break a battle.

    Hero Evermore
    Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
    Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by HeroEvermore
    How does a recon/intel work? That sounds pretty cool.

    you stay 'among the enemy' with a cloak or a very fast ship and say stuff like

    "they're 20 off gate, approaching now. armor HACs and 4 guardians".

    advantages: you're the 'eyes' of the team. the other people except the leader stay mostly silent and follow commands. You get to speak whenever you want/need to. Also based on what comes out of your mouth the leader decides what to do with his team.

    finally...if stuff goes wrong it's leader's fault. you have no responsibility beyond reporting what you see. undertanding, using that information and calculating a battle plan is FCs job.

    disadvantages: you're at high risk of dying since you fly near the enemy and you might miss thebegining of the fight since you jump after the enemy did.

    it's a fun role. you're the "eyes" of the team - but not the brain. the brain and the eyes must work together and decide how to use the muscle.

    It was similar to that in SB, with scouts and rogues of both sides playing a spy-vs-spy cat and mouse game where the objective is to both gather/relay information on the enemy and hunt/evade the opposing scouts.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,823

    Having more roles means having more reason to group. Modern MMO's are aimed at the large solo demographic, effectively they are solo games online where you bump into odd cape of another gamer but do not have to interact with them.

    I used to play a Puller and Off Tank mostly. A Tank and Dps was something I tried out in later games as those former roles disappeared.

  • jondifooljondifool Member UncommonPosts: 1,143
    Originally posted by HeroEvermore

    I love all the silly trinity threads. Obviously something thought up by younger gamers who never experienced older mmorpgs.

    Games had way more then a trinity.

    Tank

    Healer

    Mana-feed/Buffer (remember enchanters, they were NOT dps)

    Puller

    Crowd control

    Rezzer (not always the healer)

    Damage dealer (the most unwanted role in many games, now it is the most common filler role)

    Attack Buffer (atk spd or atk output not neccesarily from a dps role)

     

    I could go on and on.

     

    Want to know why you do not see this as much anymore?

    GAMING COMPANYS GOT LAZY!!!! They started combining this stuff into other roles so they could get away with less classes. You think Guild Wars 2 got rid of healers and tanks to be innovative? LOL! It was lazy. They gave everyone a rez. Gave everyone a heal. Gave everyone the ability to safely pull mobs. Something challenging will come along eventually that will once again REQUIRE such specified teamwork. Until then enjoy easy mode.

    This is one terrible biazed post.

    My thought is that OP simply don't get it the differense between having different roles and different type of roles!

    The whole trinity concept is NOT about there only being 3 roles , its about there is ONLY 3 types of roles. If you look into it you can see that roles fall into 3 types, and therefore the name the trinity!

    I can agree that there have been a certain lazyness or lack of creativity in having only 3 roles too cover the 3 types. But basicly in many years we have had threads popping up about the multiple roles in old MMO's from gamers there haven't reflected deep enough to see the mechaninc behind thesse roles. And us that have played the old MMO's find it funny that there is still players that haven't grasped it.

    the basic mechanics that is unavoidble is damage, support and control. Every role falls into one of thesse main categories. And it is EVERY ROLE, without exception. Called it buffer , debuffer, off tank, rezzer ans so on , its just damage , control and support.

    We can talk about how gameplay for many years have developed into a very primity setup often named the "holy trinity" where there where fixed and very limited roles. With control nearly only being about tanking and taunting, support being a reactive whack a mole mini game, and damage being only about gearing up for max dps.

    We can talk about if the old days where better where there where more specialization with more fixed roles, covering more facets of the 3 types? BUT it doesn't change the trinity as the basic foundation the game is build upon. 

     

     

  • HeroEvermoreHeroEvermore Member Posts: 672
    The whole trinity concept is NOT about there only being 3 roles , its about there is ONLY 3 types of roles.

     

    Edit: Sowwy oracle i did not mean to be rude. I read your post and i do agree with much of it. I just a sleepy head and was hoping for ideas on advancing classes and bsically got the opposite of why it was the way it was. Being as you are a good writer I would love suggestions on advancing class roles in high fantasy mmorpg combat.

    Hero Evermore
    Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
    Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.

  • HeroEvermoreHeroEvermore Member Posts: 672

    Killing the trinity:

    Tank role deletion: All damage is based on getting hit or not getting hit (avoidance). All characters have the same defensive standpoint.

    Healer role deletion: Take out all abilities to regen HP except a natural passive heal over time. Like real life wounds are healed.

    DPS role deletion: Take out differentials in damage output. Take out enemy HP. What part of a monster you attack starts to weaken and break him down. (obviously this would be the hardest role to take out but if there was no damage differential in skills it would all be skill based and therefore having no tank or healer role naturally takes this role out as well.) It's like: Mortal Kombat as an example. Everyone fights but you don't call them DPS.

    Now make me a game! go go go! :P

    Hero Evermore
    Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
    Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.

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