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What happened to classes in games? Formerly: It was never a trinity.

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  • SilokSilok Mascouche, QCPosts: 732Member
    Originally posted by HeroEvermore

    I love all the silly trinity threads. Obviously something thought up by younger gamers who never experienced older mmorpgs.

    Games had way more then a trinity.

    Tank

    Healer

    Mana-feed/Buffer (remember enchanters, they were NOT dps)

    Puller

    Crowd control

    Rezzer (not always the healer)

    Damage dealer (the most unwanted role in many games, now it is the most common filler role)

    Attack Buffer (atk spd or atk output not neccesarily from a dps role)

     

    I could go on and on.

     

    Want to know why you do not see this as much anymore?

    GAMING COMPANYS GOT LAZY!!!! They started combining this stuff into other roles so they could get away with less classes. You think Guild Wars 2 got rid of healers and tanks to be innovative? LOL! It was lazy. They gave everyone a rez. Gave everyone a heal. Gave everyone the ability to safely pull mobs. Something challenging will come along eventually that will once again REQUIRE such specified teamwork. Until then enjoy easy mode.

    Yeah there is more then just 3 roles, but in most rpg the easier settings was the trinity (try bladur gate with only mage and you will know what i mean). Of course you could create a party without this trinity rule an beeing succesful but still the trinity exist in terms of a rule setting.

    But i agree with you for almost all your post. But that just not the devs who are lazy but the gamers who want to be the perfect hero and self sufficient so the devs give them that.

  • ZyzraZyzra Madison, WIPosts: 354Member

    It is a very stale mechanic though, to have a huge boss unable to switch targets despite clearly making no headway against killing the player with fifty feet of steel plates on his chest.

     

    It'd be much more interesting to have a boss or group of monsters suddenly ravaging the healers because they figured that was the best thing to do in order to win against the players.  Or to use their own crowd control on the healers to quickly rip through the DPS.

     

    But yeah as long as there are incredibly boring mechanics for AI in NPCs, then I guess you can look to tank and spank all you want.

     

    Classes themselves are extremely stale to me also.  "It is impossible for me to ever pickpocket you for I started off adventuring carrying a shield in one hand."

  • SilokSilok Mascouche, QCPosts: 732Member
    Originally posted by HeroEvermore

    I blame this exact thing on people who think they are social mmorpg gamers and truly they are just RPG gamers.

    If you DO NOT RELY on others to succeed. Why are you playing an MMORPG?! /uninstall

    Most of gamers these days are even not rpg gamers but action or fps gamers.

  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,205Member Uncommon

    some bosses do that.

     

    Faction Champions for example targt players based on their armor grade and health deficit.

     

    problem is realistically in wow's case they were locked in a corner. a cloth-wearing class without defense cap or 490 uncrushable stat would get hit nearly 3 times ahrder than a tank would...and they had less than half the health.

     

    you'll notice caster-based bosses (shade of aran) often disregard threat with many mechanics. physical bosses however HAVE TO obey threat. because if a physical boss like patchwerk or brutallus lays a hand on a non-tank, that player will get hit so hard his game will crash.

     

    I bet most players don't notice this but the more physical a boss is, generally the more damage is on tank and less on raid. the more caster-oriented the boss, the more damage goes aroun into the raid rather than on tank only.

     

    it's just a necesity of how wow is set up. because its insane to expect a non-tank to bring tank-level resistances to physical attacks. shady tricks like anubarak block set where a player gets hit 8 times per second but has his gear set up in such a way that none of those 8 attacks can actually 'land'...happened. End result is the tank will have the lowest health in the raid. because he's literarly avoiance-tanking.

     

    then there's resist fights. against bosses like dragons that are 60% melee 40% spell. how much will you risk, how close do you cut it ?

     

    it can get interesting at high-end but none of this tickles down to the common folk raiding the first encounters. It's quite boring down there.

     

    image

  • DoomsDay01DoomsDay01 Charlotte, NCPosts: 780Member
    Originally posted by Zyzra

    I would love to spend my entire time in an MMORPG of the future just hitting a monster once so that the rest of the group can do everything else.

    Pulling sounds amazing.

    Buffing is a great thing as well.  I remember how much buffs helped, and how their durations of an hour or so were far too short so we had to keep one of our group slots filled with someone who followed us around, collected loot to keep, and after a while of yelling buffed us again.

     

    And crowd control, amazing, I can't imagine how groups could work without a player who all they did was control the crowds.  They have to be some sort of amazing magic user, but not a Mage because mages use magic and they are DPS.  The CC uses magic too, but can't do damage.  It would be silly to think that someone who could use magic could do both.

    There was an art to pulling. It wasnt simply run up and hit a mob and bring it back. There was also the splitting of the groups of mobs that would want to come at you. Something you dont have in todays games, they all come or nothing comes. Nowadays you have the wonderful leash system where everything just snaps back to its area. Try having mobs remember you and follow you across the zone till you either died or left the area. The leash system is in my opinion the worst system ever made.

    People love buffs. It makes them more powerful. Usually classes that could buff could also do damage, just not nearly as well as a dps class.

    I watched my friend play his enchanter on many occasions soloing stuff that people simply couldnt solo. Could they do damage? Some, yes, but could they charm a creature and have it do damage for them? Hell yeah they can. The enchanter was the hardest class to play but if the person playing the class knew it well, they could usually do stuff that other classes only dreamed of. So, please, continue telling us how you think these classes are useless and we will continue to laugh at you for being ignorant about how these classes could do so much more then you think.

  • AxehandleAxehandle Florida, FLPosts: 147Member
    Originally posted by Zyzra

    I would love to spend my entire time in an MMORPG of the future just hitting a monster once so that the rest of the group can do everything else.

    Pulling sounds amazing.

    Buffing is a great thing as well.  I remember how much buffs helped, and how their durations of an hour or so were far too short so we had to keep one of our group slots filled with someone who followed us around, collected loot to keep, and after a while of yelling buffed us again.

     

    And crowd control, amazing, I can't imagine how groups could work without a player who all they did was control the crowds.  They have to be some sort of amazing magic user, but not a Mage because mages use magic and they are DPS.  The CC uses magic too, but can't do damage.  It would be silly to think that someone who could use magic could do both.

    Don't take things so literal he was generalizing about how there wasn't just the tank who's only job is to stand still and soak up damage, the dps who's only job is to deal damage and occasionally run away from bad shit (fire, mobs etc) and healers that heal through the damage taken.

     

    Once a tank had to seriously worry about correct positioning to maximize the chance of success or making sure the boss wasn't able to cleave or aoe healers and to a certain degree dps. The other roles were much more depended upon also for things like managing cc and dishing out high dps while lots of movement was required. 

     

    If I said geez that mmo was shit I don't mean the game was literally a piece of poo oozing out of my optical drive, I would mean it's a bad game.

  • LatronusLatronus Lexington Park, MDPosts: 692Member
    Originally posted by DoomsDay01
    Originally posted by Zyzra

    I would love to spend my entire time in an MMORPG of the future just hitting a monster once so that the rest of the group can do everything else.

    Pulling sounds amazing.

    Buffing is a great thing as well.  I remember how much buffs helped, and how their durations of an hour or so were far too short so we had to keep one of our group slots filled with someone who followed us around, collected loot to keep, and after a while of yelling buffed us again.

     

    And crowd control, amazing, I can't imagine how groups could work without a player who all they did was control the crowds.  They have to be some sort of amazing magic user, but not a Mage because mages use magic and they are DPS.  The CC uses magic too, but can't do damage.  It would be silly to think that someone who could use magic could do both.

    There was an art to pulling. It wasnt simply run up and hit a mob and bring it back. There was also the splitting of the groups of mobs that would want to come at you. Something you dont have in todays games, they all come or nothing comes. Nowadays you have the wonderful leash system where everything just snaps back to its area. Try having mobs remember you and follow you across the zone till you either died or left the area. The leash system is in my opinion the worst system ever made.

    People love buffs. It makes them more powerful. Usually classes that could buff could also do damage, just not nearly as well as a dps class.

    I watched my friend play his enchanter on many occasions soloing stuff that people simply couldnt solo. Could they do damage? Some, yes, but could they charm a creature and have it do damage for them? Hell yeah they can. The enchanter was the hardest class to play but if the person playing the class knew it well, they could usually do stuff that other classes only dreamed of. So, please, continue telling us how you think these classes are useless and we will continue to laugh at you for being ignorant about how these classes could do so much more then you think.

    Ahh the art of pulling mobs in EQ with a Monk.  I loved the job.  Hit a mob and run back to the group and FD right at the tank's feet.  Wait a couple seconds, get up and burn the mob down until about 10-20% health depending and run off looking for the next mob.  The pace depended upon our ability to keep the action going without bringing back too much for us to handle.

    Things changed with WoW and EQ2.  Some of the changes were good but the change to a simplier "trinity" wasn't so good IMHO.  Oh well, what ya gonna do except hope and pray that someone eventually gets away from tank/spank/heal.

    image
  • HeroEvermoreHeroEvermore salem, ORPosts: 672Member

    I would say that enchanter was one of the best designed classes ever made in mmorpgs. It could be AMAZING solo but where it truly shined was in the ability to make 4+ people twice as efficient. Much more effective then adding a DPS.

    I merely made this topic to point out classes that feel "missing" in games today. I hope to see more of them in the future.

    Also to note: I do not find "classless" games filling that niche at all because I am yet to see a game with such a mechanic that offers you the ability to be truly classless (nameless maybe but not classless). You follow a tree or pick here n there but there is a PATH and that in itself defeats the purpose.

    Hero Evermore
    Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
    Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.

  • KnaveSkyeKnaveSkye Chula Vista, CAPosts: 83Member Uncommon
    All this talk of EQ...I remember playing a rogue and being invited to groups because they needed a rogue to open doors that requires a high level of the Pick Lock skill. What other game today would you bring a class along because you need them to open a damn door? Sometimes you even got paid for your services! How many a druid made some decent money offering ports at the druid rings before the Planes of power came along and if you tipped well might throw a Spirit of the Wolf your way? I miss those days. 
  • HeroEvermoreHeroEvermore salem, ORPosts: 672Member
    Yeah Knave. true that. or how about shammys selling there uber buffs or giving them away to a random lowbie and making him feel like a god. Good ol days. I didnt play much eq1 but eqoa was the same class concept.

    Hero Evermore
    Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
    Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,648Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by HeroEvermore

    That is a horrible article lol. Everquest did NOT have the trinity. You can say oh but i liked these 3 classes in my party best so that has to be the trinity. NEGATIVE. Not even close. Bad article :P

    Noticed you spammed that article in several posts. Least spam something knowledgable. Anyone that says EQ was restricted to trinity is WRONG WRONG WRONG> Thanks for playing, come again.

    Yeah, what does Richard Bartle know about the history of online gaming, anyways! image

     

    Sometimes I think y'all don't really want to ever learn anything around here, rather just repeat what you want to believe over and over until someone else actually believes it.

     

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • VhalnVhaln Chicago, ILPosts: 3,159Member

    I think the trinity concept is just about reducing role diversity to its three most vital elements.  Crowd control helped, off-tanking helped, buffs helped.. but in a trinity game, you NEED healing, tanking, and damage.  Everything else is a bonus, but not good enough, if you lack any of those three.  

     

    It's also about role overlap, and how you can have classes with multiple roles, but usually not overlapping in any of those three areas.  e.g. a Healer can do crowd control and healing, but not DPS and healing, or tanking and healing, as multiple trinity roles can too easily be OP.

     

    Also, in terms of overlapping roles, in a well balanced trinity based game, every class should be able to do one of those three roles, along with the other stuff.  Buffer that can switch to a pure healer role, if needed, or a crowd controller that can effectively focus on DPS instead, if needed.

     

    So you have all these other roles, but for these reasons, at its core, it's essentially still a trinity.

    When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.

  • HeroEvermoreHeroEvermore salem, ORPosts: 672Member
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by HeroEvermore

    That is a horrible article lol. Everquest did NOT have the trinity. You can say oh but i liked these 3 classes in my party best so that has to be the trinity. NEGATIVE. Not even close. Bad article :P

    Noticed you spammed that article in several posts. Least spam something knowledgable. Anyone that says EQ was restricted to trinity is WRONG WRONG WRONG> Thanks for playing, come again.

    Yeah, what does Richard Bartle know about the history of online gaming, anyways! image

     

    Sometimes I think y'all don't really want to ever learn anything around here, rather just repeat what you want to believe over and over until someone else actually believes it.

     

     

    He only knows his perspective as DO WE ALL. If you believe everything someone writes though...giggle..

    I am a free thinker. I felt that article was pretty generic and offered no real insight. Just same ol stuff about trinity blagh blagh.

    Hero Evermore
    Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
    Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,648Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by HeroEvermore
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by HeroEvermore

    That is a horrible article lol. Everquest did NOT have the trinity. You can say oh but i liked these 3 classes in my party best so that has to be the trinity. NEGATIVE. Not even close. Bad article :P

    Noticed you spammed that article in several posts. Least spam something knowledgable. Anyone that says EQ was restricted to trinity is WRONG WRONG WRONG> Thanks for playing, come again.

    Yeah, what does Richard Bartle know about the history of online gaming, anyways! image

    Sometimes I think y'all don't really want to ever learn anything around here, rather just repeat what you want to believe over and over until someone else actually believes it.

    He only knows his perspective as DO WE ALL. If you believe everything someone writes though...giggle..

    I am a free thinker. I felt that article was pretty generic and offered no real insight. Just same ol stuff about trinity blagh blagh.

    So, it's the latter. Got it.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,205Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Zyzra

     

    I mean what's next, people asking for half their raid being filled with one of each profession - such as fishing, jewelcrafting, and cooking?

    "Guys we can't take down this undead warlord boss, we don't have a chef."

    lurker below in SSC required...ONE fisher.

     

    also I only represet my own opinions, not 'people's'

    image

  • Oracle_FefeOracle_Fefe N/A, NYPosts: 221Member
    Originally posted by HeroEvermore

    Obviously you never played an enchanter type role that is completely designated to feed buffs and mana and not do ANY damage.

     Honestly. No, I have not. I've only started MMO's in 2004 and regardless of my game, all of the roles that have been similar to such has been support or done pre/after battles. May you please direct me to a particular class in a game that does that? I'm not questioning in a demeaning way but just for example.

    You also have never played a puller in ffxi (vanilla). Whos only job was to grab a mob, drop it off at a tank, then go get another mob. Your thoughts are tiny like the games that come out lately. We want big thinkers. Thanks for playing :P

     No, I have not. However, tell me what happens when the puller is finished "pulling" or when there are no more mobs. Do they pull mobs already on the tank if they don't require that? Do they sit around and do nothing until the next thing happens? Usually they do and start doing some damage alongside the rest of their teammates like DPS.

    Also, the tone in which you type is quite disrespectful. I didn't come to this thread to disrespect, but to disagree. I hope that your next post attacks my words, not my person/ality.

    You exact thoughts are honestly what the gaming companys think you want and that is why class diversity in games is so lame now. Thank you for proving my point lol.

     Read above comment.

    Why not just make my class the tank/healer/dps and not even make parties in games. Great idea /sarcasm

     I didn't say that all classes are Tank/Healer/DPS, but that most, if not nearly every role in games usually go down to a Tank/Healer/DPS role in offtime. If you're buffing everyone on a team and you have a heal-over-time. Then why not apply the heal over time? You're practically being a healer. If you pulled a mob out of the danger zone for a tank to pick up and he's the only mob, then start DPSing. Once again I'm not saying that you can't CC a mob all day, but that the trinity is called the trinity because they are considered major roles that most other roles fall into. Generalization. Think having specific papers in three different folders.

    WHEN GAMES BEGAN-

    I thought classes would grow and become infinity. Now they are even less then a trinity. A true waste of imagination.

    Classes, roles, and the trinity I (!) consider extremely different things (Roles and Trinity are subjective to opinion.) Classes can for sure be infinite. Roles, depending on the variety of classes. However, most of them will fall within the category of dealing damage, soaking damage,  healing damage, or, since you've gave me another outlet, maximizing/minimizing damage done (Through the form of buffs.)

     

    Again, in every post I do I say it's my opinion because it is. I'm not attempting to enforce the way I think upon you but to give my own view onto the topic.

  • FearumFearum Cinnaminson, NJPosts: 1,166Member Uncommon
    Those days are long gone, I was depressed when moving to WoW from DAoC to find out that they combined some of the classes or did away with them. I was under the illusion that each new game would expand class selection more and more but it went the opposite way. With each new game that came out you got less and less class definition until now you can be everything in one package. I guess the only way to go now is back to having many different classes, can't really narrow them down anymore unless you let everyone become a god.
  • XxGrimmxXXxGrimmxX texarkana, TXPosts: 223Member
    Really? It was NEVER a trinity... Just making sure.
  • RossbossRossboss Runes of Magic, TXPosts: 240Member
    I do like the idea of hyper specialization like that. However, since MMORPGs allow players to access content at their own speed, they have to support independant play styles. Players have to be able to progress with the game regardless of other players interaction. It's like saying that single player RPGs can only have "Jack of All Trades" based archetypes because players can only play by themselves and therefore must need all types of abilities.

    I played WoW up until WotLK, played RoM for 2 years and now Rift.
    I am F2P player. I support games when I feel they deserve my money and I want the items enough.
    I don't troll, and I don't take kindly to trolls.

  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,473Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by HeroEvermore

    That is a horrible article lol. Everquest did NOT have the trinity. You can say oh but i liked these 3 classes in my party best so that has to be the trinity. NEGATIVE. Not even close. Bad article :P

     

    Noticed you spammed that article in several posts. Least spam something knowledgable. Anyone that says EQ was restricted to trinity is WRONG WRONG WRONG> Thanks for playing, come again.

     So you know better than Richard Bartle?

    Are you aware of who he is?

  • Skeeter50Skeeter50 summerville, GAPosts: 147Member Uncommon
    "Casual"  is to blame.
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,648Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Zyzra

    I mean what's next, people asking for half their raid being filled with one of each profession - such as fishing, jewelcrafting, and cooking?

    "Guys we can't take down this undead warlord boss, we don't have a chef."

    While that's getting a bit silly, I'd like to see more MMOs with more expanded roles such as commander, logistics, recon/intel or seige/machinery operator. The roles exist outside of trinity-based games. UO, SB, Vendetta and EVE are some examples of games with one or more of them. Most of those roles are not needed in your average MMO due to either the mechanics of combat or the static nature of the game world.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • HeroEvermoreHeroEvermore salem, ORPosts: 672Member
    Originally posted by waynejr2
    Originally posted by HeroEvermore

    That is a horrible article lol. Everquest did NOT have the trinity. You can say oh but i liked these 3 classes in my party best so that has to be the trinity. NEGATIVE. Not even close. Bad article :P

     

    Noticed you spammed that article in several posts. Least spam something knowledgable. Anyone that says EQ was restricted to trinity is WRONG WRONG WRONG> Thanks for playing, come again.

     So you know better than Richard Bartle?

    Are you aware of who he is?

    I know all. Duh. I beat secret of mana and had every final weapon. Didn't you see my avatar? :P (giggle)

    In case you don't know who he is though heres the wiki I wrote on him.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Bartle

    Hero Evermore
    Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
    Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.

  • HeroEvermoreHeroEvermore salem, ORPosts: 672Member
    How does a recon/intel work? That sounds pretty cool.

    Hero Evermore
    Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
    Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.

  • HeroEvermoreHeroEvermore salem, ORPosts: 672Member
    Originally posted by Skeeter50
    "Casual"  is to blame.

    Yeah. Casual sells more. Sure doesn't have the retention though. FFXI is pretty hardcore, it's still going strong.

     

    As to the person who asked what a puller did when he wasn't pulling in FFXI. He was always pulling. He never was with the party except to drop off mobs. 24/7 go get em tiger! A role that was so utterly unselfish in parties and our gratitude of the pro pullers was never ending. FFXI can be a dangerous game. A bad puller can set you back days of xp.

    Hero Evermore
    Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
    Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.

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