You guys are just expecting too much. A "themepark MMO" with mostly single-player elements should be treated for what it is - a single player game with MMO elements, not the other way around. You're supposed to play it through maybe once or twice and then ditch it.
If the developers keep developing games that don't offer players any tools for generating more content themselves, they will get exactly what they ordered - a very short-lived playerbase.
I hope SOE has _truly_ understood this with their new concept for EQ Next. I'm of course quite skeptical because it's SOE and Smedley, but at least they realized cloning EQx/WoW is not the way to go if they want a game with longevity.
If the developers keep developing games that don't offer players any tools for generating more content themselves, they will get exactly what they ordered - a very short-lived playerbase.
...
This.
Predicting that a MMO will die after three months isn't very hard if you understand the above.
Also no matter how good a game is you will always have haters even if its just for the lulz.
Now and then though you will find really good critisicms which always have a grain of truth. Ignore them to your own peril.
--- Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Originally posted by tom_gore...If the developers keep developing games that don't offer players any tools for generating more content themselves, they will get exactly what they ordered - a very short-lived playerbase....
This.
Predicting that a MMO will die after three months isn't very hard if you understand the above.
Also no matter how good a game is you will always have haters even if its just for the lulz.
Now and then though you will find really good critisicms which always have a grain of truth. Ignore them to your own peril.
If hating on things was the tool instead of the goal, you would be right. The problem is that hating on things is the end result that they want. Give players tools and haters will simply add some hatred of the tools in with their hatred of the games.
You can tell that hatred is the goal because it's irrational. It's leveled at every game, and none of a game's good points matter. The game is 100% garbage, because of feature X, no matter that features Y and Z are worthwhile.
** edit ** You'll also note a recurring pattern where all of a game's features are hated on. It's not until the posts hit a nerve that the hate posts actually focus on anything in particular. The haters aren't on to anything other than looking for something to hate, and people will just as irrationally defend.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
If the developers keep developing games that don't offer players any tools for generating more content themselves, they will get exactly what they ordered - a very short-lived playerbase.
And the counter example is WOW. How long do people play WOW? No player is allowed to generating more content themselves.
Heck, even D2 lasted for years with zero abilities to generate player content.
I think you are confusing Trolls and Haters with people who want MMORPGs to come back. And I mean by defintion of what they are suppose to be. GW2 and SWTOR are the games that they made but they are not MMOs. We need to stand up for MMORPGs and demand that if they are going to call their game a MMO it meets the standard of a MMO. Also, to be a game they there is a standard that qualifies what a game is. MMORPG will ban me for saying it but look it up you will see these games are no MMOs! Power to the true gamers of the world.
Oh and stop dumbing down asian games for the NA market some of us play at that level.
Turns out...GW2 has been bleeding out players faster than SWTOR ever did. The server I was on...complete ghost town in about a month or two. The guild of 400 (split in 2 guilds)...completely dead.
And what server is that because I sure dont see that complaint on the OFFICAL server boards. I know my server is doing great and even there a few people were saying the server population dropped a LOT yet it didnt, everyone was too busy doing FRACTALS to do the other dungeons or world events.
So, it wasnt a population issue, it was that ArenaNet made one dungeon far better than the others and it became so popular that some thought a lot of people left the game.
lol.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Trolls and haters are just that. They are not on to anything except trolling and hate. They feel that what they want is more important than anything else. They do not listen to reason or reasonable agruments.
There is nothing wrong with the MMO genre, if people were realistic in their expectations. Most people hype things to death which brings a darth of haters and trolls out. Most of these people will never try the games they say they have. Do the games out there have issues - yes they do. Can they be fixed - SURE. ARE THEY AS BAD AS THE HATERS AND TROLLS SAY THEY ARE - NO!
It seems in this society, being contrary gets people noticed. All they are trying to do is get their 15 minutes of fame.
Originally posted by Starpower Sounds like you are waking up to the fact you may just have had a too wide definition of a troll/hater expanding the terms to anybody who criticise something you like
yeah this could be. I noticed many fans of the games I listed, if anyone (and I was part of it with SWTOR and GW2) said anything negative...many of us...automatically called them trolls, reported them and they got banned (or warned).
This more than anything. A constructive criticism of a game backed by reasoning, whether you agree or not, is not truly a trolling or hating. I will add that positive praise of a game backed by reasoning , whether you agree or not, also is not truly fanboi-ism.
When you have a post like "this game sucks and if you like it you are a noob" = hating,trolling
Conversely saying "this game is the best ever and if you dont like it you suck" = a fanboy
If you can't add "content" to a reply, maybe you should just reconsider posting in that thread.
Lets take a look at all the previous MMO releases...starting from the latest.
I was a HUGE fan of GW2...thought it was going to be the next big thing. I avoided the GW2 section for the most part, didn't feel bothered enough to argue with people who were "trolls" and "haters".
Turns out...GW2 has been bleeding out players faster than SWTOR ever did. The server I was on...complete ghost town in about a month or two. The guild of 400 (split in 2 guilds)...completely dead. The dynamic events near impossible to do, no one chatting except in the major cities. Moved to the next "full" server...completely dead...however, when a major event happens...the activity sky rockets and its as active as it ever was. Between luls, the game is just empty. Turns out the "trolls" "haters" were right.
SWTOR...again I was a fan, even more so than GW2. I even got warned a few times and banned arguing with people who I called "trolls" "haters"...and we all know how that game ended up.
Same with Age of Conan. Exept this time I was called a hater and banned a couple times. Turns out, the game after Tortage (like I and many others stated on the forums) sucked. We were called liars, trolls and it was worse than even GW2 at this stage. Banned for saying the game sucked after tortage, for "trolling".
And those are the only MMOs I've been a part of pre-release. So those are the only examples I'll give.
In each of those cases...all the trolls and haters get banned (or even perma banned)...but in each of those cases...the majority of these so called "trolls" have been correct. Most of the time I've been wrong, and realized that I should have listened to these haters and trolls and saved my money and time.
So...I think in this, we can learn that trolls and haters are actually quite right in a lot of these cases. Yet they get repeatedly banned or their posts deleted. I know when I was a fan of GW2 or SWTOR, I thought those two would never do wrong...well I was wrong. Could have saved a lot of time, hype and money on something else.
People don't get banned for saying a game sucks on here.
Also, its not trolling to say a game sucks. Or are we going to start discussing what a troll is?
Knowing some of the posters here, "trolling" will mean anything that is written on a forum that a person can read HAhAhAhAhA.
With that said, people have been sharing their opinions of these games, but its the HYPE that gets everyone. People come back on here with a bad attitude after being told by people that such and such game is so awesome and innovative. Take GW2. It's run of the mill and the hype was INSANE. Now all is quiet.
What got me the worst was the hype for Kingdoms of Amular. PC Gamer said it was the best RPG of the year and would be for sometime. That game, in my eyes, was pure garbage. I feel they put no heart into making an engaging game.
So yeah, complaining does not equal trolling. And I would say its the average joe who is generally quiet that is right. Hence why these games are on a slow decline (rapid at first).
Originally posted by mmoDAD People aren't going to complain about a great restaurant.
This is mostly true. A great game will have far more praising it than flaming it. Every MMO launched for years has had a huge batch of folks flaming it and giving reasons.
Everquest, in contrast, had nothing but praise at launch. SWG had nothing but praise at launch. These games changed over time; but at launch everyone loved them.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Originally posted by Eladi If I keep saying that car is going to crash everytime one passes me I will eventualy get right. if a large group of people say it all the time just for the sake of saying it they will get right more often.
Except we've been right almost every time. The only real surprise was how successful Darkfall was.
Heh you might want to wait a few months before making claims like that. Sounds like the claims that SWTOR was the best mmo ever created the week before it released.
Except Darkfall is 4 years old and is an established success story already.
Originally posted by mmoDAD People aren't going to complain about a great restaurant.
This..... There are plenty of games out there that alot of us enjoy I wish gamers would go make there own games if they can do better I wish for once... I know I did and its Not easy at all, its hard work to do what they do, now I do it for a living and dealing with people , and some are never ever happy period.
I bet if I said hey I have 450 millions dollars and told people you can tell me what to make, and I will add it, I bet people would still find something to complain about, people will always find something to whine about.. Gamers buy these games so stop find a new hobby, make your own, i;m confused, do you think companys will change what they make if they are making millions?? No..
I wouldn't either.. and they have been...so people only have themselfs to blame... Stop buying companys will change what they make ... I see niche games, indie games make cool games and most of you dislike that to, so what do you people like nothing..???
I mean cmon I have wrote blogs about this to see what you people want and we never get direct answers from you gamers, so start telling them what you want and stop spending money with games until they make different stuff..
So...I think in this, we can learn that trolls and haters are actually quite right in a lot of these cases. Yet they get repeatedly banned or their posts deleted. I know when I was a fan of GW2 or SWTOR, I thought those two would never do wrong...well I was wrong. Could have saved a lot of time, hype and money on something else.
If you sit around everyday telling everyone that they will get sick or die, eventually you will be right here and there. SSDD
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Company ABC wants to make an MMORPG. They notice that company FQR did it right.
They listen to customers A, B, C & D
They spend 5 years making MMO
Customer A, B, C & D complain it isn't want they want now, that's what they wanted 5 years ago and there are now 14 games on the market that give them that. Instead they want something completely "new" and "revolutionary" without actually specifiying what it is they want.
Company XYZ listens to customers A, B, C & D and begins the 5 year production to give them the MMO they want.
Company ABC wants to make an MMORPG. They notice that company FQR did it right.
They listen to customers A, B, C & D
They spend 5 years making MMO
Customer A, B, C & D complain it isn't want they want now, that's what they wanted 5 years ago and there are now 14 games on the market that give them that. Instead they want something completely "new" and "revolutionary" without actually specifiying what it is they want.
Company XYZ listens to customers A, B, C & D and begins the 5 year production to give them the MMO they want.
Sounds about right, except XYZ will copy FQR again and A, B, C, & D won't even get what they wanted 5 years ago.
Originally posted by mmoDAD People aren't going to complain about a great restaurant.
This is mostly true. A great game will have far more praising it than flaming it. Every MMO launched for years has had a huge batch of folks flaming it and giving reasons.
Everquest, in contrast, had nothing but praise at launch. SWG had nothing but praise at launch. These games changed over time; but at launch everyone loved them.
The restaurant analogy doesn't hold true. A great restaurant can serve food that a person does not like, and it can still be a great restaurant. The person who doesn't like that kind of food will not dispute the restaurant's greatness, they'll just say they don't like that kind of food. Not true with MMORPG. An MMORPG could be a great game, but because it's not the type of game that a person on these forums likes, they will not acknowledge any positive points about the game.
The trolls and haters are the same people who would consider a restaurant bad because it servers a type of food they do not like. So no, the trolls and haters are not on to anything at all.
That doesn't mean people who are critical of games aren't on to something. There's a difference between the trolls/haters and the critical people though.
** edit ** There's really a difference between the people who do not like games because of the type of game they are, without bothering to give a game 'rating' and the troll types. If they are tired of theme parks, and won't play a game because it's a theme park, that's not really a troll post. That's someone expressing a preference.
** edit ** Troll: This game is a poor quality game because it's a theme park.
Non-Troll: This game is a theme park, and while it may or may not have executed being a theme park well, it doesn't matter because theme parks are nearly done.
This type of scenario doesn't exist in the restaurant analogy. At least not in the town I live in. We have half a dozen restaurants near the big mall, all with similar things on their menu, and every restaurant does a booming business. The only difference is the dressing on the outside of the restaurants. You can't really do with with MMORPG. Half a dozen MMORPG, all with very similar mechanics would not all do well at the same time, regardless of how well they were executed. It just doesn't work. I really wish people would stop using analogies.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Comments
You guys are just expecting too much. A "themepark MMO" with mostly single-player elements should be treated for what it is - a single player game with MMO elements, not the other way around. You're supposed to play it through maybe once or twice and then ditch it.
If the developers keep developing games that don't offer players any tools for generating more content themselves, they will get exactly what they ordered - a very short-lived playerbase.
I hope SOE has _truly_ understood this with their new concept for EQ Next. I'm of course quite skeptical because it's SOE and Smedley, but at least they realized cloning EQx/WoW is not the way to go if they want a game with longevity.
I blame WoW. We all can.
If you get it, you get it. If you don't, you don't.
This.
Predicting that a MMO will die after three months isn't very hard if you understand the above.
Also no matter how good a game is you will always have haters even if its just for the lulz.
Now and then though you will find really good critisicms which always have a grain of truth. Ignore them to your own peril.
---
Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
If hating on things was the tool instead of the goal, you would be right. The problem is that hating on things is the end result that they want. Give players tools and haters will simply add some hatred of the tools in with their hatred of the games.
You can tell that hatred is the goal because it's irrational. It's leveled at every game, and none of a game's good points matter. The game is 100% garbage, because of feature X, no matter that features Y and Z are worthwhile.
** edit **
You'll also note a recurring pattern where all of a game's features are hated on. It's not until the posts hit a nerve that the hate posts actually focus on anything in particular. The haters aren't on to anything other than looking for something to hate, and people will just as irrationally defend.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
And the counter example is WOW. How long do people play WOW? No player is allowed to generating more content themselves.
Heck, even D2 lasted for years with zero abilities to generate player content.
I think you are confusing Trolls and Haters with people who want MMORPGs to come back. And I mean by defintion of what they are suppose to be. GW2 and SWTOR are the games that they made but they are not MMOs. We need to stand up for MMORPGs and demand that if they are going to call their game a MMO it meets the standard of a MMO. Also, to be a game they there is a standard that qualifies what a game is. MMORPG will ban me for saying it but look it up you will see these games are no MMOs! Power to the true gamers of the world.
Oh and stop dumbing down asian games for the NA market some of us play at that level.
And what server is that because I sure dont see that complaint on the OFFICAL server boards. I know my server is doing great and even there a few people were saying the server population dropped a LOT yet it didnt, everyone was too busy doing FRACTALS to do the other dungeons or world events.
So, it wasnt a population issue, it was that ArenaNet made one dungeon far better than the others and it became so popular that some thought a lot of people left the game.
lol.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Trolls and haters are just that. They are not on to anything except trolling and hate. They feel that what they want is more important than anything else. They do not listen to reason or reasonable agruments.
There is nothing wrong with the MMO genre, if people were realistic in their expectations. Most people hype things to death which brings a darth of haters and trolls out. Most of these people will never try the games they say they have. Do the games out there have issues - yes they do. Can they be fixed - SURE. ARE THEY AS BAD AS THE HATERS AND TROLLS SAY THEY ARE - NO!
It seems in this society, being contrary gets people noticed. All they are trying to do is get their 15 minutes of fame.
This more than anything. A constructive criticism of a game backed by reasoning, whether you agree or not, is not truly a trolling or hating. I will add that positive praise of a game backed by reasoning , whether you agree or not, also is not truly fanboi-ism.
When you have a post like "this game sucks and if you like it you are a noob" = hating,trolling
Conversely saying "this game is the best ever and if you dont like it you suck" = a fanboy
If you can't add "content" to a reply, maybe you should just reconsider posting in that thread.
People don't get banned for saying a game sucks on here.
Also, its not trolling to say a game sucks. Or are we going to start discussing what a troll is?
Knowing some of the posters here, "trolling" will mean anything that is written on a forum that a person can read HAhAhAhAhA.
With that said, people have been sharing their opinions of these games, but its the HYPE that gets everyone. People come back on here with a bad attitude after being told by people that such and such game is so awesome and innovative. Take GW2. It's run of the mill and the hype was INSANE. Now all is quiet.
What got me the worst was the hype for Kingdoms of Amular. PC Gamer said it was the best RPG of the year and would be for sometime. That game, in my eyes, was pure garbage. I feel they put no heart into making an engaging game.
So yeah, complaining does not equal trolling. And I would say its the average joe who is generally quiet that is right. Hence why these games are on a slow decline (rapid at first).
This is mostly true. A great game will have far more praising it than flaming it. Every MMO launched for years has had a huge batch of folks flaming it and giving reasons.
Everquest, in contrast, had nothing but praise at launch. SWG had nothing but praise at launch. These games changed over time; but at launch everyone loved them.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Except Darkfall is 4 years old and is an established success story already.
This..... There are plenty of games out there that alot of us enjoy I wish gamers would go make there own games if they can do better I wish for once... I know I did and its Not easy at all, its hard work to do what they do, now I do it for a living and dealing with people , and some are never ever happy period.
I bet if I said hey I have 450 millions dollars and told people you can tell me what to make, and I will add it, I bet people would still find something to complain about, people will always find something to whine about.. Gamers buy these games so stop find a new hobby, make your own, i;m confused, do you think companys will change what they make if they are making millions?? No..
I wouldn't either.. and they have been...so people only have themselfs to blame... Stop buying companys will change what they make ... I see niche games, indie games make cool games and most of you dislike that to, so what do you people like nothing..???
I mean cmon I have wrote blogs about this to see what you people want and we never get direct answers from you gamers, so start telling them what you want and stop spending money with games until they make different stuff..
Thats my 2 cents.
If you sit around everyday telling everyone that they will get sick or die, eventually you will be right here and there. SSDD
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
It goes something like this:
Company ABC wants to make an MMORPG. They notice that company FQR did it right.
They listen to customers A, B, C & D
They spend 5 years making MMO
Customer A, B, C & D complain it isn't want they want now, that's what they wanted 5 years ago and there are now 14 games on the market that give them that. Instead they want something completely "new" and "revolutionary" without actually specifiying what it is they want.
Company XYZ listens to customers A, B, C & D and begins the 5 year production to give them the MMO they want.
Sounds about right, except XYZ will copy FQR again and A, B, C, & D won't even get what they wanted 5 years ago.
The restaurant analogy doesn't hold true. A great restaurant can serve food that a person does not like, and it can still be a great restaurant. The person who doesn't like that kind of food will not dispute the restaurant's greatness, they'll just say they don't like that kind of food. Not true with MMORPG. An MMORPG could be a great game, but because it's not the type of game that a person on these forums likes, they will not acknowledge any positive points about the game.
The trolls and haters are the same people who would consider a restaurant bad because it servers a type of food they do not like. So no, the trolls and haters are not on to anything at all.
That doesn't mean people who are critical of games aren't on to something. There's a difference between the trolls/haters and the critical people though.
** edit **
There's really a difference between the people who do not like games because of the type of game they are, without bothering to give a game 'rating' and the troll types. If they are tired of theme parks, and won't play a game because it's a theme park, that's not really a troll post. That's someone expressing a preference.
** edit **
Troll: This game is a poor quality game because it's a theme park.
Non-Troll: This game is a theme park, and while it may or may not have executed being a theme park well, it doesn't matter because theme parks are nearly done.
This type of scenario doesn't exist in the restaurant analogy. At least not in the town I live in. We have half a dozen restaurants near the big mall, all with similar things on their menu, and every restaurant does a booming business. The only difference is the dressing on the outside of the restaurants. You can't really do with with MMORPG. Half a dozen MMORPG, all with very similar mechanics would not all do well at the same time, regardless of how well they were executed. It just doesn't work. I really wish people would stop using analogies.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.