Wasnt an argument to begin with. Its whats in almost every post on these forums. Cant lose something when im quoting other people lol. Not my statements to begin with, its theirs.
Coming from traditional tabletop RPGs, when I first arrived in an online RPG (SWG), I did so with a character concept in mind already, complete with a backstory and a general idea of where I wanted to go with development (both skill-wise and "profession").
The path I envisioned took interesting twists along the way. I reached some goals, ignored others, and found new ones. I brought along friends and family, and made new allies, too.
I formed a squad, built a city, and allied with neighboring towns. We took to the spacelanes, and expanded our reach in the galactic civil war, by supplying intel, troops and goods.
At no point did SWG give me my personal story. It gave me a world and all the tools I needed to tell my own.
Coming from traditional tabletop RPGs, when I first arrived in an online RPG (SWG), I did so with a character concept in mind already, complete with a backstory and a general idea of where I wanted to go with development (both skill-wise and "profession").
The path I envisioned took interesting twists along the way. I reached some goals, ignored others, and found new ones. I brought along friends and family, and made new allies, too.
I formed a squad, built a city, and allied with neighboring towns. We took to the spacelanes, and expanded our reach in the galactic civil war, by supplying intel, troops and goods.
At no point did SWG give me my personal story. It gave me a world and all the tools I needed to tell my own.
Wasnt an argument to begin with. Its whats in almost every post on these forums. Cant lose something when im quoting other people lol. Not my statements to begin with, its theirs.
And they are very one dimensional statements
Well themeparks are here to stay because people have different opinions, and every other post wow what a exaggeration. Alot of people I know want a mix of sanbox and themepark.
I think there are a lot of ideas out there that could have a place in MMO's, like personal stories, if done well. The problem is that if it's implimented in a half-assed way, then it doesn't matter how good the idea is in the first place.
When I hear "personal stories," I think of a story I create for my character, which is what I want. Some companies create or change their games based on the idea that everyone wants to play the hero. Not everyone in a story is the main character. There are lots of supporting characters too. Maybe I don't want to be the person that goes out and slays the dragon. Maybe I want to be the one that makes the equipment used by the person that slays the dragon. Maybe I want to be the friend waiting at home to hear the stories of the person that slayed the dragon so I can go around telling the story to others. Sometimes I want to have two characters playing the game, one that goes and slays dragons and one that is a supporting role.
Also, in an MMO, there can be multiple stories combining together. While I may not want to be the "hero" or "main character" of the entire game, I may be the main character in my own story but my story might be different than that intended by the game designer (I'm not a hero out to slay the dragon and save the world, I'm a thief looking to be the richest person in the world or a doctor set on helping the most people or an entertainer making a name for myself....point is whatever my story, the choices should be MINE, not forced upon me as the only storyline available or one storyline out of a few choices, perhaps determined a choice I made in character creation).
I like a "personal" story - but you don't get those in games with a developer-written scripted story.
The studios can brag a million times about the "personal" story in their games - but there's nothing "personal" in their "personal" stories. It's canned food for the millions.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
I like a "personal" story - but you don't get those in games with a developer-written scripted story.
The studios can brag a million times about the "personal" story in their games - but there's nothing "personal" in their "personal" stories. It's canned food for the millions.
Wasnt an argument to begin with. Its whats in almost every post on these forums. Cant lose something when im quoting other people lol. Not my statements to begin with, its theirs.
And they are very one dimensional statements
But I've actually never seen anyone on the forus say I don't wanna craft or group or build a house or alot of other things on your list, and I don't think a single person exists who doesn't want all the things on that list, I don't like pvp that's my 1 thing I don't wanna do in a game and everyone will have their own but I don't see anyone who complains about all that stuff, in fact lots of people (even themepark players like me) would like alot of the stuff on that list (especially housing and more grouping).
I would rather developers devote their resources to other things than "personal stories". They are a negative aspect of the game to me. I'm just starting GW2 and it is very annoying to hear my character say things he would never say. I can invent my own personal story which pleases me more than anything the developers create. No, I do not want to be a hero. I wish developers would stop assuming I do. I don't want to hear voice acting from npcs and certainly not from my own character. Cut scenes are even worse.
Just give me an open, living, breathing world in which to create my own story with my online friends.
Story is not everything and isnt the only thing that makes up a mmorpg............. role playing is killed in your story driven games and should stay in single player console department. And yes games like TSW,TOR, and others with your personal story makes it nearly impossible to make your own up or content for such a story.
Just saying I loved the story in tsw from a role playing perspective as it had an interesting story to play through but didn't give your chaaracter a personality or anything so you could still be whoever you wanted to be. In terms of tor they really tried to fix this by giving you choices in how you responde to things,however I aggree with you in terms of tor as there was only a limited number of ways your character could act.
I would rather developers devote their resources to other things than "personal stories". They are a negative aspect of the game to me. I'm just starting GW2 and it is very annoying to hear my character say things he would never say. I can invent my own personal story which pleases me more than anything the developers create. No, I do not want to be a hero. I wish developers would stop assuming I do. I don't want to hear voice acting from npcs and certainly not from my own character. Cut scenes are even worse.
Just give me an open, living, breathing world in which to create my own story with my online friends.
Isnt that just a survival game then? I wouldnt mind that either though. Just throw you in a wilderness with nothing and say, there now go. In every rpg there is a story whether you follow it or not, there is still some under lying theme to why you are there and what you are expected to do. I don't think you can make a game based on any other game like that, would be better to just make a general theme and give the world to the players. I doubt the game would be that populated though. Its not a large market for games like that. Something like that would require huge amounts of time like a second life, not gonna pull a huge crowd like that.
Your personal story is that which you live out playing the game everyday.
Actual stories are GAME stories NOT yours,they were coded and written by the game developer.Somewhere along the way ,somebody [ i think you know who] decided to call them "personal " stories.
A game story is most certainly needed,it tells me the developer put some effort into displaying through use of creatures,npc's ,cutscenes,movies what the actual game is all about.
This still has little to do with ROLE playing,you are playing the role of a Warrior or Paladin,whatever that is different from the game's story.
What i have found is most games seem to have just tossed stuff together,a sloppy sort of effort on creating the game's story.
NO WAY should the game have various plots to the story,the background and explanation of they WHY ands when of the game world,should be steadfast.Again we are not talking single player games,where to create replay value,they try and come up with alternate endings,a MMORPG is all about you and the other real players in the game,every minute is a story and what you make of it,not the pre scribed code that ONLY has definitive options.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Your personal story is that which you live out playing the game everyday.
Actual stories are GAME stories NOT yours,they were coded and written by the game developer.Somewhere along the way ,somebody [ i think you know who] decided to call them "personal " stories.
A game story is most certainly needed,it tells me the developer put some effort into displaying through use of creatures,npc's ,cutscenes,movies what the actual game is all about.
This still has little to do with ROLE playing,you are playing the role of a Warrior or Paladin,whatever that is different from the game's story.
What i have found is most games seem to have just tossed stuff together,a sloppy sort of effort on creating the game's story.
NO WAY should the game have various plots to the story,the background and explanation of they WHY ands when of the game world,should be steadfast.Again we are not talking single player games,where to create replay value,they try and come up with alternate endings,a MMORPG is all about you and the other real players in the game,every minute is a story and what you make of it,not the pre scribed code that ONLY has definitive options.
Well you're still in a computer generated game world and have to follow whatever rules they have coded for you and everyone else there. You are still limited by what content they have supplied for you to work with so your story will never be just yours, others could do the same exact things as you have done.
Your personal story is that which you live out playing the game everyday.
Actual stories are GAME stories NOT yours,they were coded and written by the game developer.Somewhere along the way ,somebody [ i think you know who] decided to call them "personal " stories.
A game story is most certainly needed,it tells me the developer put some effort into displaying through use of creatures,npc's ,cutscenes,movies what the actual game is all about.
This still has little to do with ROLE playing,you are playing the role of a Warrior or Paladin,whatever that is different from the game's story.
What i have found is most games seem to have just tossed stuff together,a sloppy sort of effort on creating the game's story.
NO WAY should the game have various plots to the story,the background and explanation of they WHY ands when of the game world,should be steadfast.Again we are not talking single player games,where to create replay value,they try and come up with alternate endings,a MMORPG is all about you and the other real players in the game,every minute is a story and what you make of it,not the pre scribed code that ONLY has definitive options.
The games seem to be stuck in this cycle and the players of them don't seem to have ideas on how to get them out of this fixed method of designing. It's become "the model" that they work with.
Changes from it would be difficult but are technically possible but it would require rather radical changes from what we know.
----------
Here's one for you to look at.
Say you have a "sea of chaos" - as you move forward toward it, new lands are exposed. Once you conqueor those lands, you then can help build towns and such there. If you don't, just moving on, the sea may swing back in and engulf the lands you just visited.
If you do invest the time and effort to build up a new region, helping build towns, helping the grow to cities, etc. It can become a permanent part of the world and, as such, it would be recorded into the histories of the world with information on the 'heroes' that helped found that area and build it up.
Actually changing the face of a game world. Potentially leaving permanent histories on what your char did.
Doing this, let's say we eliminate leveling up. We eliminate the standard old fashioned quests. It's finding, conquer, defend and build in areas that you 'discovered' and invested enough time and effort to make permanent.
No levels and no real gear chase - what you chase is instead making yourself a legend in the history of that game world. Any friends that join don't have "80 levels to catch up, then a few days/weeks of gearing up" - they simply jump in with you and and work beside you to build up that area.
As players game in the world, they actually form it and how it works. They become the history of the lands around them - not "following a story" but building one and becoming part of the world's history - a history that could last years.
-----------
Make it unpredictable. Say 200 "sub scripts" - 400 different "effects" - with 400 different "attributes" to bosses. 8 million potential combinations and no boss is ever the same.
Due to the nature of the world, no dungeon is ever the same. They don't "respawn" so no camping is possible.
Even if an old dungeon is reinfseted with some kind of critter, it will adjust it's lair in ways so as to make maps pretty much useless and everything generated by the computer so even the designers can't predict what any given dungeon would end up being like.
-----------
Everything is craftable but there are problems...
Use material properties and attributes similar to SWG - variable quality levels so making exactly the same thing will net different end-results.
Have a range of properties per item - similar to how Skyrim's ingredients have multiple attributes that need to be discovered.
As new lands are discovered, new ingredients come out and all properties need to be found. For some rare items, this may mean days, weeks or even months until they are "fully discovered".
All drops are generated from these craftable attributes - meaning yes it can be "made" but what the hell is it made out of and how was it combined to make it? As such, "drops" may not only be 'rare' for a while but also they may actually end up being the best - if that quality of material hasn't dropped "in-game" yet.
This means that even if you have a given weapon of 'high quality" you may still be shopping to see if someone was able to get materials of higher quality and make a better version.
In SWG, some items were "the best" for 6 years before they were surpassed in quality.
As for "credit" for discovering stuff - only if published. It becomes your option to publish or not but if you don't, whoever did publish first -- they get the credit for it and publishing is an option "in-game" to libraries - again, "in-game".
-----------
Such a concept is different.
Again, it's not "following a story" but actually making it. There is no "ancient days" in it, you'd be at the start in the earliest days and it would move forward from there so no "ancient relics" to find. No "artifacts" to locate.
All the pieces to create such would be there and all of it would be "new" so no "old elves" type of stuff.
Could such a game take off? It's not like "here's a story to follow" - it's "here's a world, now - let's see what type of history we will make from *YOUR* actions in it."
Would this be sufficient motivation *WITHOUT* quest grinds? Without "what's the new ubah sword that this next boss will drop!". Without the "google it..." to learn how everything works?
----------
The current play methods in games...
Some guys fixing a bridge, are still fixing the same damned holes in that bridge 5 years later, with the same stupid quest. Some guys building a boat, are still building the same boat years later. The same guy "defending" against attacks from 4-8 things attacking every 30 seconds, is still doing that years later and that same dragon is sitting in the same den within days after you're chopping it's head off.
I don't know if it would work but the idea that there isn't a story you follow but one that builds up around you as you play - being part of the story, not "following it"... I don't know if that could replace the current 'carrot on the stick' model but it would be different and could open up a hell of a lot of differences in play.
Comments
Wasnt an argument to begin with. Its whats in almost every post on these forums. Cant lose something when im quoting other people lol. Not my statements to begin with, its theirs.
And they are very one dimensional statements
Coming from traditional tabletop RPGs, when I first arrived in an online RPG (SWG), I did so with a character concept in mind already, complete with a backstory and a general idea of where I wanted to go with development (both skill-wise and "profession").
The path I envisioned took interesting twists along the way. I reached some goals, ignored others, and found new ones. I brought along friends and family, and made new allies, too.
I formed a squad, built a city, and allied with neighboring towns. We took to the spacelanes, and expanded our reach in the galactic civil war, by supplying intel, troops and goods.
At no point did SWG give me my personal story. It gave me a world and all the tools I needed to tell my own.
And it was truly "personal".
Felt good too i bet
Whole bunch of them coming
Just not fast enough.
You make me like charity
When I hear "personal stories," I think of a story I create for my character, which is what I want. Some companies create or change their games based on the idea that everyone wants to play the hero. Not everyone in a story is the main character. There are lots of supporting characters too. Maybe I don't want to be the person that goes out and slays the dragon. Maybe I want to be the one that makes the equipment used by the person that slays the dragon. Maybe I want to be the friend waiting at home to hear the stories of the person that slayed the dragon so I can go around telling the story to others. Sometimes I want to have two characters playing the game, one that goes and slays dragons and one that is a supporting role.
Also, in an MMO, there can be multiple stories combining together. While I may not want to be the "hero" or "main character" of the entire game, I may be the main character in my own story but my story might be different than that intended by the game designer (I'm not a hero out to slay the dragon and save the world, I'm a thief looking to be the richest person in the world or a doctor set on helping the most people or an entertainer making a name for myself....point is whatever my story, the choices should be MINE, not forced upon me as the only storyline available or one storyline out of a few choices, perhaps determined a choice I made in character creation).
I like a "personal" story - but you don't get those in games with a developer-written scripted story.
The studios can brag a million times about the "personal" story in their games - but there's nothing "personal" in their "personal" stories. It's canned food for the millions.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
i like that
the term not actualy the canned food
But I've actually never seen anyone on the forus say I don't wanna craft or group or build a house or alot of other things on your list, and I don't think a single person exists who doesn't want all the things on that list, I don't like pvp that's my 1 thing I don't wanna do in a game and everyone will have their own but I don't see anyone who complains about all that stuff, in fact lots of people (even themepark players like me) would like alot of the stuff on that list (especially housing and more grouping).
I would rather developers devote their resources to other things than "personal stories". They are a negative aspect of the game to me. I'm just starting GW2 and it is very annoying to hear my character say things he would never say. I can invent my own personal story which pleases me more than anything the developers create. No, I do not want to be a hero. I wish developers would stop assuming I do. I don't want to hear voice acting from npcs and certainly not from my own character. Cut scenes are even worse.
Just give me an open, living, breathing world in which to create my own story with my online friends.
Just saying I loved the story in tsw from a role playing perspective as it had an interesting story to play through but didn't give your chaaracter a personality or anything so you could still be whoever you wanted to be. In terms of tor they really tried to fix this by giving you choices in how you responde to things,however I aggree with you in terms of tor as there was only a limited number of ways your character could act.
Isnt that just a survival game then? I wouldnt mind that either though. Just throw you in a wilderness with nothing and say, there now go. In every rpg there is a story whether you follow it or not, there is still some under lying theme to why you are there and what you are expected to do. I don't think you can make a game based on any other game like that, would be better to just make a general theme and give the world to the players. I doubt the game would be that populated though. Its not a large market for games like that. Something like that would require huge amounts of time like a second life, not gonna pull a huge crowd like that.
Your personal story is that which you live out playing the game everyday.
Actual stories are GAME stories NOT yours,they were coded and written by the game developer.Somewhere along the way ,somebody [ i think you know who] decided to call them "personal " stories.
A game story is most certainly needed,it tells me the developer put some effort into displaying through use of creatures,npc's ,cutscenes,movies what the actual game is all about.
This still has little to do with ROLE playing,you are playing the role of a Warrior or Paladin,whatever that is different from the game's story.
What i have found is most games seem to have just tossed stuff together,a sloppy sort of effort on creating the game's story.
NO WAY should the game have various plots to the story,the background and explanation of they WHY ands when of the game world,should be steadfast.Again we are not talking single player games,where to create replay value,they try and come up with alternate endings,a MMORPG is all about you and the other real players in the game,every minute is a story and what you make of it,not the pre scribed code that ONLY has definitive options.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Well you're still in a computer generated game world and have to follow whatever rules they have coded for you and everyone else there. You are still limited by what content they have supplied for you to work with so your story will never be just yours, others could do the same exact things as you have done.
The games seem to be stuck in this cycle and the players of them don't seem to have ideas on how to get them out of this fixed method of designing. It's become "the model" that they work with.
Changes from it would be difficult but are technically possible but it would require rather radical changes from what we know.
----------
Here's one for you to look at.
Say you have a "sea of chaos" - as you move forward toward it, new lands are exposed. Once you conqueor those lands, you then can help build towns and such there. If you don't, just moving on, the sea may swing back in and engulf the lands you just visited.
If you do invest the time and effort to build up a new region, helping build towns, helping the grow to cities, etc. It can become a permanent part of the world and, as such, it would be recorded into the histories of the world with information on the 'heroes' that helped found that area and build it up.
Actually changing the face of a game world. Potentially leaving permanent histories on what your char did.
Doing this, let's say we eliminate leveling up. We eliminate the standard old fashioned quests. It's finding, conquer, defend and build in areas that you 'discovered' and invested enough time and effort to make permanent.
No levels and no real gear chase - what you chase is instead making yourself a legend in the history of that game world. Any friends that join don't have "80 levels to catch up, then a few days/weeks of gearing up" - they simply jump in with you and and work beside you to build up that area.
As players game in the world, they actually form it and how it works. They become the history of the lands around them - not "following a story" but building one and becoming part of the world's history - a history that could last years.
-----------
Make it unpredictable. Say 200 "sub scripts" - 400 different "effects" - with 400 different "attributes" to bosses. 8 million potential combinations and no boss is ever the same.
Due to the nature of the world, no dungeon is ever the same. They don't "respawn" so no camping is possible.
Even if an old dungeon is reinfseted with some kind of critter, it will adjust it's lair in ways so as to make maps pretty much useless and everything generated by the computer so even the designers can't predict what any given dungeon would end up being like.
-----------
Everything is craftable but there are problems...
Use material properties and attributes similar to SWG - variable quality levels so making exactly the same thing will net different end-results.
Have a range of properties per item - similar to how Skyrim's ingredients have multiple attributes that need to be discovered.
As new lands are discovered, new ingredients come out and all properties need to be found. For some rare items, this may mean days, weeks or even months until they are "fully discovered".
All drops are generated from these craftable attributes - meaning yes it can be "made" but what the hell is it made out of and how was it combined to make it? As such, "drops" may not only be 'rare' for a while but also they may actually end up being the best - if that quality of material hasn't dropped "in-game" yet.
This means that even if you have a given weapon of 'high quality" you may still be shopping to see if someone was able to get materials of higher quality and make a better version.
In SWG, some items were "the best" for 6 years before they were surpassed in quality.
As for "credit" for discovering stuff - only if published. It becomes your option to publish or not but if you don't, whoever did publish first -- they get the credit for it and publishing is an option "in-game" to libraries - again, "in-game".
-----------
Such a concept is different.
Again, it's not "following a story" but actually making it. There is no "ancient days" in it, you'd be at the start in the earliest days and it would move forward from there so no "ancient relics" to find. No "artifacts" to locate.
All the pieces to create such would be there and all of it would be "new" so no "old elves" type of stuff.
Could such a game take off? It's not like "here's a story to follow" - it's "here's a world, now - let's see what type of history we will make from *YOUR* actions in it."
Would this be sufficient motivation *WITHOUT* quest grinds? Without "what's the new ubah sword that this next boss will drop!". Without the "google it..." to learn how everything works?
----------
The current play methods in games...
Some guys fixing a bridge, are still fixing the same damned holes in that bridge 5 years later, with the same stupid quest. Some guys building a boat, are still building the same boat years later. The same guy "defending" against attacks from 4-8 things attacking every 30 seconds, is still doing that years later and that same dragon is sitting in the same den within days after you're chopping it's head off.
I don't know if it would work but the idea that there isn't a story you follow but one that builds up around you as you play - being part of the story, not "following it"... I don't know if that could replace the current 'carrot on the stick' model but it would be different and could open up a hell of a lot of differences in play.