I actually land in both catagories, i enjoy both Sandbox and Themepark. However ive seen sandboxes crumble and fail so i have a idea of whats needed to make them succesful. Which is a opening PVE area with a story and quests to get you a idea of how the universe works. without it instead of what you explained happening it would look more like this.
"i Wake up and venture into the world, upon leaving my house i see 30 people screaming LOL and ROFL while killing eachother. I sneak around and attempt to enter a city where i see more of the same. i eventually find some open ground i can explore however, I find it nice so i continue. While exploring 3 people jump me from behind and i die quickly. I wake up later and see i have mail. inside i have 14 messages all saying "lol you suck L2P noob""
This wasn't the intent of my original post. I like quests and I like stories; what I do not like is the general move toward single-player type 'you as the hero' personal stories.
I actually land in both catagories, i enjoy both Sandbox and Themepark. However ive seen sandboxes crumble and fail so i have a idea of whats needed to make them succesful. Which is a opening PVE area with a story and quests to get you a idea of how the universe works. without it instead of what you explained happening it would look more like this.
"i Wake up and venture into the world, upon leaving my house i see 30 people screaming LOL and ROFL while killing eachother. I sneak around and attempt to enter a city where i see more of the same. i eventually find some open ground i can explore however, I find it nice so i continue. While exploring 3 people jump me from behind and i die quickly. I wake up later and see i have mail. inside i have 14 messages all saying "lol you suck L2P noob""
I like your reply.
Actualy some sandboxes do offer starting quests and things to get you rolling. Some also offer story, just not an in depth as themeparks.
And sandboxes doesnt mean open world full loot pvp lol Majority of sandboxes at this stage do not have this. Some of the newer ones do, but arent full loot. Some also provide protection by levels, jail system, and protective areas.
pvp is fun, but i hate full loot. Glad most these sandboxes arent like that. Rather have the pvp system, a good one, in place. Than neglect any part of the game.
Long as everyone is happy, but as a community we have to meet in the middle. Some just dont like that idea.
What do you do when your story runs out? Seems to me its better to use your imagination long term than be given a story short term. Some of these games rip through this stuff, max level in 3 days, and then there isnt anything to do. Not what i want in my mmorp's.
Games like LoTRO has much more than story telling, so you have options. Games like TSW, SWTOR, etc you have one set path and thats about it. LoTRO is also a pretty good sized game with decent map to allow you freedom.
Just dont understand why people want mmorpgs like single player stories, why not jut go play one instead of wanting an entirely different genre to merge with single player genre, which mmo's seperated itself from long ago.
"One day i go explore, find a mysterious place or an ancient creature. Next day i decide to craft some in an indpeth crafting system to occupy me. Day after that i run quests and level up. Well now im tired of all this so i decide to decorate my house and just take it easy for a day. Now that im refreshed i want to get some action..head out to the locale pvp area and battle it out, things get lopsided.... i can head out to something else. The freedom feels so good."
"I have to follow this path, take this set quest to continue my advancement. Down a long path with high walls on each side so that i can not explore or look around. With a handful of creatures to slay on a timer. Finaly i reach my destination and battle the boss. Wow i gots some loot. Back to the quest giver down that long linear path. No time to take it easy, must get to my next quest giver I only need 8k more xp before next level.. 5 hours later....... im max level woot, game only been out a week and i didnt need to group or talk to anyone. Now i have nothing to do but dailies, raids, and warzone 500 times in a row."
Can you tell which is a sandbox and which is a themepark I dont get much enjoyment out of the newer themeparks at all. They are so quick and lack almost all mmorpg features now. Older themeparks offered much much more and kept players going.
"The term “themepark” brings to mind the idea of a setting with attractions to ride over and over. But no matter how many times you ride the attractions, the details just never change. If you wait several years and go back, they are right there, waiting for you...just as you left them. While this could be fun the first few times, it gets boring quick and you could find yourself looking at other themeparks for new and more exciting rides.
The concept of a themepark MMO is much the same. Heavily driven by developers from the very start, new players begin with a set path to follow. The developer controls the experience, from the first time a player logs in with a new character and every time after, until that character achieves the level cap for that particular game. Developers restrict the attractions offered, often only allowing one ride at a time. In other words, once on there’s no turning back until the ride stops!"
"The “Sandbox” MMO is a quite different beast from the theme park MMO. The sandbox MMO is designed as a frame that players can play in and a big toolbox that allows them to make their own content. In a sandbox MMO you will find very few quests that fill out your leveling experience and it will be much more up to yourself to decide where you want to go and do said leveling. The experience that sandbox MMO’s generally aim to provide is that of a truly massive and open world for the players to explore and form for themselves. These games really appeal to our lust for exploration and pioneering spirit"
Im the later, im very creative, love exploration even in real life, and just like the overall freedom. Perhaps one of the reasons i can never get into a themepark. Maybe thats what has ruined my experience with the newer games. I like using my brain, solving puzzles, crafting new and exciting items, finding lost city, etc... What are you guys? What has had a huge impact on your feelings or play style. Do think TSW is about the only newer game (minus rift) that i liked, because you need to think and solve things. But taking my time, as i know the story will run out eventualy
And this isnt attacking one or the other, just curious to why people choose one oer the other.
That's why I will always love Ultima Online. You had to think before you act. Modern mmorpgs just leave you feeling like a zombie being led by the nose from quest to quest and zone to zone and by end game you've seen all the content without even knowing it.
However the current community is different now. Ultima Online didnt have to deal with all the casuals coming in and treating the game like a Team Deathmatch title. If the same game was released now it would be a open gank fest. Im not condemning the game, im just saying due to the influx of Call of Duty gamers our chances at having a successful Sandbox are Significantly Diminished
Because i can. I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out. Logic every gamers worst enemy.
I actually land in both catagories, i enjoy both Sandbox and Themepark. However ive seen sandboxes crumble and fail so i have a idea of whats needed to make them succesful. Which is a opening PVE area with a story and quests to get you a idea of how the universe works. without it instead of what you explained happening it would look more like this.
"i Wake up and venture into the world, upon leaving my house i see 30 people screaming LOL and ROFL while killing eachother. I sneak around and attempt to enter a city where i see more of the same. i eventually find some open ground i can explore however, I find it nice so i continue. While exploring 3 people jump me from behind and i die quickly. I wake up later and see i have mail. inside i have 14 messages all saying "lol you suck L2P noob""
I like your reply.
Actualy some sandboxes do offer starting quests and things to get you rolling. Some also offer story, just not an in depth as themeparks.
And sandboxes doesnt mean open world full loot pvp lol Majority of sandboxes at this stage do not have this. Some of the newer ones do, but arent full loot. Some also provide protection by levels, jail system, and protective areas.
pvp is fun, but i hate full loot. Glad most these sandboxes arent like that. Rather have the pvp system, a good one, in place. Than neglect any part of the game.
Long as everyone is happy, but as a community we have to meet in the middle. Some just dont like that idea.
OH believe me i get that. however the more restrictions added in the less there is to do in the game. I personally dont agree with Full loot either. While its a interesting idea, it tends to push things deeper into the gank fest idea. Having just the gear you are currently wearing drop when you die im ok with. given that you can protect your inventory abit. When i look at a sandbox game, i see that Face of Mankind could have been one the best titles ever released for it. Every Item needed to be made by a player, Politics and factions were all player run. The police force was player run. There wasn't any AI in the game at all. NOw while AI could still be added without effecting these things, The thing that killed the game was a lack of a opening. the game quickly became "who are we going to war with this week"
Because i can. I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out. Logic every gamers worst enemy.
What do you do when your story runs out? Seems to me its better to use your imagination long term than be given a story short term. Some of these games rip through this stuff, max level in 3 days, and then there isnt anything to do. Not what i want in my mmorp's.
Games like LoTRO has much more than story telling, so you have options. Games like TSW, SWTOR, etc you have one set path and thats about it. LoTRO is also a pretty good sized game with decent map to allow you freedom.
Just dont understand why people want mmorpgs like single player stories, why not jut go play one instead of wanting an entirely different genre to merge with single player genre, which mmo's seperated itself from long ago.
"One day i go explore, find a mysterious place or an ancient creature. Next day i decide to craft some in an indpeth crafting system to occupy me. Day after that i run quests and level up. Well now im tired of all this so i decide to decorate my house and just take it easy for a day. Now that im refreshed i want to get some action..head out to the locale pvp area and battle it out, things get lopsided.... i can head out to something else. The freedom feels so good."
"I have to follow this path, take this set quest to continue my advancement. Down a long path with high walls on each side so that i can not explore or look around. With a handful of creatures to slay on a timer. Finaly i reach my destination and battle the boss. Wow i gots some loot. Back to the quest giver down that long linear path. No time to take it easy, must get to my next quest giver I only need 8k more xp before next level.. 5 hours later....... im max level woot, game only been out a week and i didnt need to group or talk to anyone. Now i have nothing to do but dailies, raids, and warzone 500 times in a row."
Can you tell which is a sandbox and which is a themepark I dont get much enjoyment out of the newer themeparks at all. They are so quick and lack almost all mmorpg features now. Older themeparks offered much much more and kept players going.
"The term “themepark” brings to mind the idea of a setting with attractions to ride over and over. But no matter how many times you ride the attractions, the details just never change. If you wait several years and go back, they are right there, waiting for you...just as you left them. While this could be fun the first few times, it gets boring quick and you could find yourself looking at other themeparks for new and more exciting rides.
The concept of a themepark MMO is much the same. Heavily driven by developers from the very start, new players begin with a set path to follow. The developer controls the experience, from the first time a player logs in with a new character and every time after, until that character achieves the level cap for that particular game. Developers restrict the attractions offered, often only allowing one ride at a time. In other words, once on there’s no turning back until the ride stops!"
"The “Sandbox” MMO is a quite different beast from the theme park MMO. The sandbox MMO is designed as a frame that players can play in and a big toolbox that allows them to make their own content. In a sandbox MMO you will find very few quests that fill out your leveling experience and it will be much more up to yourself to decide where you want to go and do said leveling. The experience that sandbox MMO’s generally aim to provide is that of a truly massive and open world for the players to explore and form for themselves. These games really appeal to our lust for exploration and pioneering spirit"
Im the later, im very creative, love exploration even in real life, and just like the overall freedom. Perhaps one of the reasons i can never get into a themepark. Maybe thats what has ruined my experience with the newer games. I like using my brain, solving puzzles, crafting new and exciting items, finding lost city, etc... What are you guys? What has had a huge impact on your feelings or play style. Do think TSW is about the only newer game (minus rift) that i liked, because you need to think and solve things. But taking my time, as i know the story will run out eventualy
And this isnt attacking one or the other, just curious to why people choose one oer the other.
I'm not sure a full sandbox could work with the current MMORPG audience. If you've ever read fan fiction or browsed through player made mods for just about any game, you may notice that the quality of work is somewhat lacking. It's certainly not what I would want to see in my MMORPGs. (Side note: There are some REALLY good modders out there, I acknowledge this and they are not included for the purposes of this discussion)
I believe the best route a MMORPG world could take is a controlled sandbox. What I mean by that is many sandbox elements, but robust tools that can only be applied in a certain number of ways. That number could be pretty large, but every way has to make sense and do something to add to the game. It would probably be a logistics nightmare. However, it would probably also have the best chance of pushing sandbox elements into the modern online gaming market.
IF you got good gameplay and enough to do in your game, you don't need to have a personal story. Just world Lore and World story, picked up on through missions/quest backlog etc. FFXI did it pretty good. It had world story, not personal story. It would have advanced even if my "Adventurer" wasn't involved.
World story is much better than personal story. If you want a personal story play a singleplayer game or a Co-Op. We seriously need to get away from these Single Player Online RPG's.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
Originally posted by elocke I think they should be necessary. The best MMOs I've played: FFXI and Lotro were filled with awesome storylines that made them different from the rest of the offerings in the genre and make me keep coming back for more and their updates. Games without a personal storyline, even as a side option always end up boring me i.e. Eve, SWG, WoW, Rift(yes some of these have storylines, but they aren't reliant on my character to be told).
As you seem to put so much weight on single player storylines I think you need to ask yourself why are you playing an MMO instead of a single player RPG?
Maybe because he is not a MMO purist and is going with the flow? MMOS have eveolved and are still changing and are not confined into rigid definitions or rule sets anymore.
They havent evolved, they went backwards. Thats why newer console single player games offer more content than new mmo's? Think thats the opposite. Fuinny how newer mmorpgs tell you content hours now on previews like old single player games did in the past. Its sad. MMORPG's shouldnt have an expiration date lol.
And the definitions are pretty clear and think they hold up nicely in todays market still. Themepark, sandbox, mmorpg, mmo, mog, mmofps, mmorts........... Dont think we need to change anything because a few people cant understand what they mean or want to change everything around for themselves.
Subjective and matter of opinion.
As was yours
I never pretended otherwise;)
But which part though? that MMOS have changed over the years and devs don't like their MMOS to be confined in rigid boundaries or that they are going backwards? because former is not an opinion but something that is actually happening.(Star Citizen is latest example).whereas later part is an opinion.
Originally posted by Mike-McQueen I want memories not stories. Let a players story be told through his or her actions. Ill say it again, not everyone's a hero.
A personal story doesnt have to make your a hero. It can however help you in learning the basic Atmosphere of the game. Think of it as a Single Player Tutorial that teaches you what to expect.
Because i can. I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out. Logic every gamers worst enemy.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a story-driven single player game; I just don't need them in my mmo's. I have three principal issues:-
Firstly, it always seems slightly absurd that I am 'the' hero, when I know full well that the hundreds of people who completed the quest before me, and the ten people gathered around me speaking to my npc, are also the same hero.
Secondly, the stories are generally too prescriptive. My character is no longer my own, it is performing someone elses actions and speaking someone elses lines.
Finally, it is bloody expensive. Voice acting and cutscenes on every little 'kill ten rats' quest (SWTOR) drains money that could be better spent on more mmo-y features.
They are my thoughts on the matter, please feel free to add your own.
1, that's because some players have difficulty with the idea that there are two parts to these story driven games. That's the You are the hero" part which is for the benefit of the single player and the "you are in an mmo and once you start interacting with other players, the first part is soley about you and that's it".
This is also where the role play part comes in. Essentially you as a player know your character has done all these things but it's left unsaid. The real issue is that these stories are about engaging individual players (where applicable) or a small group. In many ways they fall outside the massive and multiplayer idea. At least how they are usually done in these games.
2, This is the fault of the developer. They don't allow for individual choices because that would mean developing many different outcomes.
3, I actuallly don't buy this. At least on face value. X amount of dollars are put aside for different parts of development. A budget is created for every aspcect of a project.
If 10 million dollars is set aside for voice acting (or whatever it costs) and the voice acting is completely scrubbed, you aren't going to then have an extra 10 million to pump into other aspects of the game.
Whatever costs were set for each game play element will stand until such time it is deemed necessary to add money (if available).
There are two separate things here. 1, why are other mmo game play elements not developed as well as some players would want and 2, Is it worth it to have a huge fully voiced story.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a story-driven single player game; I just don't need them in my mmo's. I have three principal issues:-
Firstly, it always seems slightly absurd that I am 'the' hero, when I know full well that the hundreds of people who completed the quest before me, and the ten people gathered around me speaking to my npc, are also the same hero.
Secondly, the stories are generally too prescriptive. My character is no longer my own, it is performing someone elses actions and speaking someone elses lines.
Finally, it is bloody expensive. Voice acting and cutscenes on every little 'kill ten rats' quest (SWTOR) drains money that could be better spent on more mmo-y features.
They are my thoughts on the matter, please feel free to add your own.
Personal? No. Stories? Yes.
Part of what makes an MMO good is having a consistent well-crafted story in both the macro World and the individual interactions with the environment. At the opposite end of the spctrum from SWTOR is the cheaply developed sandbox where they just give you a place to play with little or no context...that is equally annoying, specially when the only player-created memories are who leveled the fastest and ganked everyone else.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I like there being a basic storyline attached to an MMO, it gives it a sense of stability. But personal stories don't much matter to me, I'm playing MMOs for their inherently addictive qualities (killing mobs, looting, collecting etc.). I would rather play than hear people talk, hence my disinterest in some of the recent chatty Cathy MMOs.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a story-driven single player game; I just don't need them in my mmo's. I have three principal issues:-
Firstly, it always seems slightly absurd that I am 'the' hero, when I know full well that the hundreds of people who completed the quest before me, and the ten people gathered around me speaking to my npc, are also the same hero.
Secondly, the stories are generally too prescriptive. My character is no longer my own, it is performing someone elses actions and speaking someone elses lines.
Finally, it is bloody expensive. Voice acting and cutscenes on every little 'kill ten rats' quest (SWTOR) drains money that could be better spent on more mmo-y features.
They are my thoughts on the matter, please feel free to add your own.
1, that's because some players have difficulty with the idea that there are two parts to these story driven games. That's the You are the hero" part which is for the benefit of the single player and the "you are in an mmo and once you start interacting with other players, the first part is soley about you and that's it".
This is also where the role play part comes in. Essentially you as a player know your character has done all these things but it's left unsaid. The real issue is that these stories are about engaging individual players (where applicable) or a small group. In many ways they fall outside the massive and multiplayer idea. At least how they are usually done in these games.
2, This is the fault of the developer. They don't allow for individual choices because that would mean developing many different outcomes.
3, I actuallly don't buy this. At least on face value. X amount of dollars are put aside for different parts of development. A budget is created for every aspcect of a project.
If 10 million dollars is set aside for voice acting (or whatever it costs) and the voice acting is completely scrubbed, you aren't going to then have an extra 10 million to pump into other aspects of the game.
Whatever costs were set for each game play element will stand until such time it is deemed necessary to add money (if available).
There are two separate things here. 1, why are other mmo game play elements not developed as well as some players would want and 2, Is it worth it to have a huge fully voiced story.
1. But this is kind of my point. Any personal mmo story imo should take account of the fact you are in an mmo and not an individual snowflake in a single player game. If you are going to have a story, just have a general story for the mmo, not a personal story about me becoming the hero and saving the world. Have an arc or a theme, but rather than ramming it down my throat in a series of linear cutscenes, just explore it through general quests and events.
2. GW2 was terrible for this, it gave two options, neither of which would I ever do or say, and this would just end up irritating me. By stripping back the single-player type story a little the developer shouldn't need to contend with this issue at all.
3. I am not talking about some Progress Meeting midway through development. All I am saying is that at a high level from conception, less emphasis needs to be put on personal story and more on an immersive, fun world to play in.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a story-driven single player game; I just don't need them in my mmo's. I have three principal issues:-
Firstly, it always seems slightly absurd that I am 'the' hero, when I know full well that the hundreds of people who completed the quest before me, and the ten people gathered around me speaking to my npc, are also the same hero.
Secondly, the stories are generally too prescriptive. My character is no longer my own, it is performing someone elses actions and speaking someone elses lines.
Finally, it is bloody expensive. Voice acting and cutscenes on every little 'kill ten rats' quest (SWTOR) drains money that could be better spent on more mmo-y features.
They are my thoughts on the matter, please feel free to add your own.
I don't like personal stories. I wish though that like 1 in 1k players had a personal story and we made our own stories based around that players actions.
Originally posted by elocke I think they should be necessary. The best MMOs I've played: FFXI and Lotro were filled with awesome storylines that made them different from the rest of the offerings in the genre and make me keep coming back for more and their updates. Games without a personal storyline, even as a side option always end up boring me i.e. Eve, SWG, WoW, Rift(yes some of these have storylines, but they aren't reliant on my character to be told).
As you seem to put so much weight on single player storylines I think you need to ask yourself why are you playing an MMO instead of a single player RPG?
Not really. Today's MMORPG are the newest and best type of RPG I grew up loving. Games like FF1-10, Legend of Zelda, The Pool of Radiance type games, dont exist anymore. Next best thing I have is MMORPGs. Which, by the way, present a few caviats that Single Player Rpgs do not:
1. They never end.(for the most part, due to content updates and expansions I can play these games for years)
2. Playing alongside other people is awesome and makes the "worlds" feel more alive.
3. Constant bug fixing, content patching and maintenance keeps my game remaining fresh and alive.
4. Personal story can actually continue!!
So, please, get off the high horse viewpoint of "well go play singler player games if you want story so much". I'm tired of hearing that, as if someones sandbox could possibly be ruined by adding a personal storyline to it! ROFL!
Originally posted by Mike-McQueen I want memories not stories. Let a players story be told through his or her actions. Ill say it again, not everyone's a hero.
Who says you can't have both? Seriously, stop thinking in one dimension people. As if a personal story ever hurt ones freedom to make their own stories in these games. If any of you even mention one game that does this, I bet I can show which aspect you are confusing with hindering your own made up story and it's not the storyline in the game. It's the build/design/tools or lack of, the world you are playing in.
1. But this is kind of my point. Any personal mmo story imo should take account of the fact you are in an mmo and not an individual snowflake in a single player game. If you are going to have a story, just have a general story for the mmo, not a personal story about me becoming the hero and saving the world. Have an arc or a theme, but rather than ramming it down my throat in a series of linear cutscenes, just explore it through general quests and events.
3. I am not talking about some Progress Meeting midway through development. All I am saying is that at a high level from conception, less emphasis needs to be put on personal story and more on an immersive, fun world to play in.
But that's an opinion. And as we all know all opinions are like ... mine yours and everyone else's.
Point being that there are many people who enjoy personal story in an mmo. I'll be honest, my first mmo was lineage 2. When I tried wow beta I hated it BUT I absolutely LOVED the quests because for the first time ever there was a storied reason why I was going out and killing these things.
The main quest, personal story is just an extension of the mmo quest but it allows the quest to be something more than a few minute jaunt into the forest.
As for #3 see above. If the developers are interested in cultivating a story then they are going to do what it takes to make that story come alive.
Of course this is the difference between thempark and sandbox mmo's. Theme park mmo's are about the ride. Main story is just one part of that ride.
edit: if i was going to do story in an mmo I would have a "server story". meaning I would have a large story with things that need to happen, be discovered, etc. Some of these things would be up to individuals and small groups and then those thigns would spawn events that were more server wide. This way someone CAN be the one who discovers the plot to kill the queen, someone CAN be the one to thwart that plot and larger events can be done by the regular server as they happen.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Originally posted by Mike-McQueen I want memories not stories. Let a players story be told through his or her actions. Ill say it again, not everyone's a hero.
Who says you can't have both? Seriously, stop thinking in one dimension people. As if a personal story ever hurt ones freedom to make their own stories in these games. If any of you even mention one game that does this, I bet I can show which aspect you are confusing with hindering your own made up story and it's not the storyline in the game. It's the build/design/tools or lack of, the world you are playing in.
And themepark players arent one dimensional? lol
I dont want to craft
I dont want to decorate a house
I dont want to pvp
I dont want to buy stuff i want all loot
I dont want to travel more than 3 feet to content
I dont want large worlds
I dont want puzzles, using ym brain, or solving things
I dont want to level up outside quests, i need the guidance
I dont want death penalty
I dont want player based economy
I dont want player content
I dont want to group
I dont want.................... you can add yours here. I could go on for hours.
In all honesty, themepark players and their linear thought patterns are so much more one dimensional than any sandbox player. We want all features and to take part in all or have the choice not to. Themepark players just want to kill stuff, hitt max level, and come on the forums to complain about the game.
Story is not everything and isnt the only thing that makes up a mmorpg............. role playing is killed in your story driven games and should stay in single player console department. And yes games like TSW,TOR, and others with your personal story makes it nearly impossible to make your own up or content for such a story.
The personal story you guys speak of is a single player RPG story aspect. A game that pushes you along a little story from point A to point B is not an MMO, its an online RPG.
In MMO's a personal story is something completly diffrent. Are you that well known crafter on your server. Are you that douch thats been kicked out of guilds for ninja looting. Do people see you and say "hes a good player" You make your own personal stories in an MMO. A personal story can never be scripted by a dev. If they try your not playing an MMO your playing an online RPG.
There can be world lore and a world story, to make whatever your doing feel like its worth doing. But it should never be the driving factor in the game. Why? because even the best stories END.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
The personal story you guys speak of is a single player RPG story aspect. A game that pushes you along a little story from point A to point B is not an MMO, its an online RPG.
In MMO's a personal story is something completly diffrent. Are you that well known crafter on your server. Are you that douch thats been kicked out of guilds for ninja looting. Do people see you and say "hes a good player" You make your own personal stories in an MMO. A personal story can never be scripted by a dev. If they try your not playing an MMO your playing an online RPG.
There can be world lore and a world story, to make whatever your doing feel like its worth doing. But it should never be the driving factor in the game. Why? because even the best stories END.
They're generally good the first time you go through them, maybe even the second time, but the best times I've had in MMOs always come to me doing something on my own without a quest telling me to do it. My favorite archetype is a carpenter or blacksmith if the game doesn't have carpentry. I really don't like fighting and all that business. In Ashen Empires (old sandbox from late 90s) and Dransik (the earlier 2d version the game was based on) I really never got into going and fighting demons and all that. I spent all day just hanging out in town, milling logs into planks or crafting mixing bowls or staves or bows or arrows for my fellow adventurers to buy from me. My main character in that game still has alot of gold even by today's standards. I go back from time to time to get my crafting fix, or I play skyrim. In skyrim my "main" would be my orc blacksmith. He does nothing but goes about gathering ores and making items to sell to vendors. I hope in ESO that they will have something in the way of a crafting character. In FFXIV, I think I'm one of the few people that played a sole crafter. I spent all my time crafting, I love doing so. Raids and all that are fun the first few times you do them, but they have no staying power with me. Crafting is where it's at. Nothing beats the rush I get when I get a mail, tell, or call for someone to use my crafting expertise to make them a grand item, build them a house (Ashen Empires has the best housing imho), or to gather materials for them. My guild loves me for it as well, our vaults are always full of herbs, ore, and leather since after my dailies all I do is craft, except for my weekly guild raids
Originally posted by Mike-McQueen I want memories not stories. Let a players story be told through his or her actions. Ill say it again, not everyone's a hero.
Who says you can't have both? Seriously, stop thinking in one dimension people. As if a personal story ever hurt ones freedom to make their own stories in these games. If any of you even mention one game that does this, I bet I can show which aspect you are confusing with hindering your own made up story and it's not the storyline in the game. It's the build/design/tools or lack of, the world you are playing in.
And themepark players arent one dimensional? lol
I dont want to craft
I dont want to decorate a house
I dont want to pvp
I dont want to buy stuff i want all loot
I dont want to travel more than 3 feet to content
I dont want large worlds
I dont want puzzles, using ym brain, or solving things
I dont want to level up outside quests, i need the guidance
I dont want death penalty
I dont want player based economy
I dont want player content
I dont want to group
I dont want.................... you can add yours here. I could go on for hours.
In all honesty, themepark players and their linear thought patterns are so much more one dimensional than any sandbox player. We want all features and to take part in all or have the choice not to. Themepark players just want to kill stuff, hitt max level, and come on the forums to complain about the game.
Story is not everything and isnt the only thing that makes up a mmorpg............. role playing is killed in your story driven games and should stay in single player console department. And yes games like TSW,TOR, and others with your personal story makes it nearly impossible to make your own up or content for such a story.
You just lost your own argument. Way to generalize one type of player. I prefer a hybrid of themepark and sandbox and none of what you stated in your "I don't want.." list ever crossed my mind nor have I really seen any of those except the pvp one, which is why most games have distinct pvp/pve servers. Anyway, moving on.
Comments
This wasn't the intent of my original post. I like quests and I like stories; what I do not like is the general move toward single-player type 'you as the hero' personal stories.
currently playing: DDO, AOC, WoT, P101
I like your reply.
Actualy some sandboxes do offer starting quests and things to get you rolling. Some also offer story, just not an in depth as themeparks.
And sandboxes doesnt mean open world full loot pvp lol
Majority of sandboxes at this stage do not have this. Some of the newer ones do, but arent full loot. Some also provide protection by levels, jail system, and protective areas.
pvp is fun, but i hate full loot. Glad most these sandboxes arent like that. Rather have the pvp system, a good one, in place. Than neglect any part of the game.
Long as everyone is happy, but as a community we have to meet in the middle. Some just dont like that idea.
However the current community is different now. Ultima Online didnt have to deal with all the casuals coming in and treating the game like a Team Deathmatch title. If the same game was released now it would be a open gank fest. Im not condemning the game, im just saying due to the influx of Call of Duty gamers our chances at having a successful Sandbox are Significantly Diminished
Because i can.
I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
Logic every gamers worst enemy.
OH believe me i get that. however the more restrictions added in the less there is to do in the game. I personally dont agree with Full loot either. While its a interesting idea, it tends to push things deeper into the gank fest idea. Having just the gear you are currently wearing drop when you die im ok with. given that you can protect your inventory abit. When i look at a sandbox game, i see that Face of Mankind could have been one the best titles ever released for it. Every Item needed to be made by a player, Politics and factions were all player run. The police force was player run. There wasn't any AI in the game at all. NOw while AI could still be added without effecting these things, The thing that killed the game was a lack of a opening. the game quickly became "who are we going to war with this week"
Because i can.
I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
Logic every gamers worst enemy.
I'm not sure a full sandbox could work with the current MMORPG audience. If you've ever read fan fiction or browsed through player made mods for just about any game, you may notice that the quality of work is somewhat lacking. It's certainly not what I would want to see in my MMORPGs. (Side note: There are some REALLY good modders out there, I acknowledge this and they are not included for the purposes of this discussion)
I believe the best route a MMORPG world could take is a controlled sandbox. What I mean by that is many sandbox elements, but robust tools that can only be applied in a certain number of ways. That number could be pretty large, but every way has to make sense and do something to add to the game. It would probably be a logistics nightmare. However, it would probably also have the best chance of pushing sandbox elements into the modern online gaming market.
IF you got good gameplay and enough to do in your game, you don't need to have a personal story. Just world Lore and World story, picked up on through missions/quest backlog etc. FFXI did it pretty good. It had world story, not personal story. It would have advanced even if my "Adventurer" wasn't involved.
World story is much better than personal story. If you want a personal story play a singleplayer game or a Co-Op. We seriously need to get away from these Single Player Online RPG's.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
I never pretended otherwise;)
But which part though? that MMOS have changed over the years and devs don't like their MMOS to be confined in rigid boundaries or that they are going backwards? because former is not an opinion but something that is actually happening.(Star Citizen is latest example).whereas later part is an opinion.
I'm a unique and beautiful snowflake.
A personal story doesnt have to make your a hero. It can however help you in learning the basic Atmosphere of the game. Think of it as a Single Player Tutorial that teaches you what to expect.
Because i can.
I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
Logic every gamers worst enemy.
I have a personal story...it's call my life.
I really don't need a replacement...I play games to get a short break from my personal story so I can decompress.
1, that's because some players have difficulty with the idea that there are two parts to these story driven games. That's the You are the hero" part which is for the benefit of the single player and the "you are in an mmo and once you start interacting with other players, the first part is soley about you and that's it".
This is also where the role play part comes in. Essentially you as a player know your character has done all these things but it's left unsaid. The real issue is that these stories are about engaging individual players (where applicable) or a small group. In many ways they fall outside the massive and multiplayer idea. At least how they are usually done in these games.
2, This is the fault of the developer. They don't allow for individual choices because that would mean developing many different outcomes.
3, I actuallly don't buy this. At least on face value. X amount of dollars are put aside for different parts of development. A budget is created for every aspcect of a project.
If 10 million dollars is set aside for voice acting (or whatever it costs) and the voice acting is completely scrubbed, you aren't going to then have an extra 10 million to pump into other aspects of the game.
Whatever costs were set for each game play element will stand until such time it is deemed necessary to add money (if available).
There are two separate things here. 1, why are other mmo game play elements not developed as well as some players would want and 2, Is it worth it to have a huge fully voiced story.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Personal? No. Stories? Yes.
Part of what makes an MMO good is having a consistent well-crafted story in both the macro World and the individual interactions with the environment. At the opposite end of the spctrum from SWTOR is the cheaply developed sandbox where they just give you a place to play with little or no context...that is equally annoying, specially when the only player-created memories are who leveled the fastest and ganked everyone else.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
1. But this is kind of my point. Any personal mmo story imo should take account of the fact you are in an mmo and not an individual snowflake in a single player game. If you are going to have a story, just have a general story for the mmo, not a personal story about me becoming the hero and saving the world. Have an arc or a theme, but rather than ramming it down my throat in a series of linear cutscenes, just explore it through general quests and events.
2. GW2 was terrible for this, it gave two options, neither of which would I ever do or say, and this would just end up irritating me. By stripping back the single-player type story a little the developer shouldn't need to contend with this issue at all.
3. I am not talking about some Progress Meeting midway through development. All I am saying is that at a high level from conception, less emphasis needs to be put on personal story and more on an immersive, fun world to play in.
currently playing: DDO, AOC, WoT, P101
+3 for a perfect observation
well done
Not really. Today's MMORPG are the newest and best type of RPG I grew up loving. Games like FF1-10, Legend of Zelda, The Pool of Radiance type games, dont exist anymore. Next best thing I have is MMORPGs. Which, by the way, present a few caviats that Single Player Rpgs do not:
1. They never end.(for the most part, due to content updates and expansions I can play these games for years)
2. Playing alongside other people is awesome and makes the "worlds" feel more alive.
3. Constant bug fixing, content patching and maintenance keeps my game remaining fresh and alive.
4. Personal story can actually continue!!
So, please, get off the high horse viewpoint of "well go play singler player games if you want story so much". I'm tired of hearing that, as if someones sandbox could possibly be ruined by adding a personal storyline to it! ROFL!
Who says you can't have both? Seriously, stop thinking in one dimension people. As if a personal story ever hurt ones freedom to make their own stories in these games. If any of you even mention one game that does this, I bet I can show which aspect you are confusing with hindering your own made up story and it's not the storyline in the game. It's the build/design/tools or lack of, the world you are playing in.
But that's an opinion. And as we all know all opinions are like ... mine yours and everyone else's.
Point being that there are many people who enjoy personal story in an mmo. I'll be honest, my first mmo was lineage 2. When I tried wow beta I hated it BUT I absolutely LOVED the quests because for the first time ever there was a storied reason why I was going out and killing these things.
The main quest, personal story is just an extension of the mmo quest but it allows the quest to be something more than a few minute jaunt into the forest.
As for #3 see above. If the developers are interested in cultivating a story then they are going to do what it takes to make that story come alive.
Of course this is the difference between thempark and sandbox mmo's. Theme park mmo's are about the ride. Main story is just one part of that ride.
edit: if i was going to do story in an mmo I would have a "server story". meaning I would have a large story with things that need to happen, be discovered, etc. Some of these things would be up to individuals and small groups and then those thigns would spawn events that were more server wide. This way someone CAN be the one who discovers the plot to kill the queen, someone CAN be the one to thwart that plot and larger events can be done by the regular server as they happen.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
And themepark players arent one dimensional? lol
I dont want to craft
I dont want to decorate a house
I dont want to pvp
I dont want to buy stuff i want all loot
I dont want to travel more than 3 feet to content
I dont want large worlds
I dont want puzzles, using ym brain, or solving things
I dont want to level up outside quests, i need the guidance
I dont want death penalty
I dont want player based economy
I dont want player content
I dont want to group
I dont want.................... you can add yours here. I could go on for hours.
In all honesty, themepark players and their linear thought patterns are so much more one dimensional than any sandbox player. We want all features and to take part in all or have the choice not to. Themepark players just want to kill stuff, hitt max level, and come on the forums to complain about the game.
Story is not everything and isnt the only thing that makes up a mmorpg............. role playing is killed in your story driven games and should stay in single player console department. And yes games like TSW,TOR, and others with your personal story makes it nearly impossible to make your own up or content for such a story.
The personal story you guys speak of is a single player RPG story aspect. A game that pushes you along a little story from point A to point B is not an MMO, its an online RPG.
In MMO's a personal story is something completly diffrent. Are you that well known crafter on your server. Are you that douch thats been kicked out of guilds for ninja looting. Do people see you and say "hes a good player" You make your own personal stories in an MMO. A personal story can never be scripted by a dev. If they try your not playing an MMO your playing an online RPG.
There can be world lore and a world story, to make whatever your doing feel like its worth doing. But it should never be the driving factor in the game. Why? because even the best stories END.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
Semantics. We all know what I mean.
currently playing: DDO, AOC, WoT, P101
You just lost your own argument. Way to generalize one type of player. I prefer a hybrid of themepark and sandbox and none of what you stated in your "I don't want.." list ever crossed my mind nor have I really seen any of those except the pvp one, which is why most games have distinct pvp/pve servers. Anyway, moving on.