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Massively shows some honesty

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  • VolkonVolkon Sterling, VAPosts: 3,788Member
    Originally posted by grimal
     

    I won't argue that you could play it like that now if you wanted but the trinity refers to the mechanic in MMOs.  Again, please show me where it is specifically referred to as "Tank/DPS/Healer" trinity in those books.  You can't because the label was created for MMOs.  There was no taunt mechanism, either.

    Edit: By saying the trinity existed with old pen n paper RPGs of the 70s-80s, you are projecting a 1999 mechanic onto something that predates the very definition of it.  If Everquest and the modern MMO never existed, there would be no "trinity" as we know it.  You can't go back and attribute it to something that was around 30 or more years before it.  You can argue there were elements or roles that beared resemblance to it, and perhaps lent itself to the creation of it some time after but thats about as far as you can go.

     

     

     Have to agree with Grimal on this one. Never once while playing D&D (I was in the Navy... not a lot to do at night when on a carrier at sea...) did anyone take roles like that. No one ever taunted the boss, no one was a pure healer, etc. It was actually a lot closer to GW2 than WoW.

    Oderint, dum metuant.
    image

  • VolkonVolkon Sterling, VAPosts: 3,788Member
    Originally posted by Rayshe

    Lets face it, there are alot of GW2 Players (being respectful here) that cannot stand to have anything bad said about their game. Hell ive been attacked and i defend it as much as condemn it. GW2 is a good game if you want something from the genre that is Simplified to the highest degree possible. This is the main reason i dont play it, Its reletively boring to me. However i play TSW, a game which is become more complicated as it progresses. For this reason i am enjoying it more than ever.

     

    If you want Simplicity in a game then GW2 is great for you.

     I don't mind if something negative is said, so long as it's true. It's the blatant lies that ruffle my feathers some.

     

    You talk here about simple and complicated. It's all perspective and what you're used to. Eve Online is a simple game... if you've been playing it for years and everything is second nature to you. GW2 is complicated in the combat if you dive into the intricacies with traits, synergies and all that... but once you grasp it it does become simple to you. That's true of every game, even TSW. It'll become old hat, second nature, etc. and by default simple.

    Oderint, dum metuant.
    image

  • RaysheRayshe London, ONPosts: 1,284Member
    I found there was very little to understand for GW2, the Synergies slapped you in the face for what you should go for. I'm not saying its bad, Im just saying its simpler than others. Some people want that others dont.

    Because i can.
    I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
    Logic every gamers worst enemy.

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,801Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Rayshe
    I found there was very little to understand for GW2, the Synergies slapped you in the face for what you should go for. I'm not saying its bad, Im just saying its simpler than others. Some people want that others dont.

    There is 2 ways of doing it.

    One is focusing on having players plow through good builds and bad builds.

    The other is having players focus on using their build properly.

     

    Still I pretty much doubt you have figured the best traits to use for each GW2 build, the best glyphs, the best runes, the best consumables to be using for each build.

     

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • PurutzilPurutzil East Stroudsburg, PAPosts: 2,923Member Uncommon

    *Spits out coffee he was drinking* Woah, a bigger site actually admits that GW2 has flaws? Whew! Thats a nice shocker. Putting asside my partial bias against the game (Fanbois... seriously they make me hate this even more then I really do) I do find it astonishing how many people seem to so blindly consider it the holy graal, most seeming to take notes from the devs on trivial stuff they release that just makes me laugh. (Seriously I can't get over the article people used to defend "GW2 has stuff to do" its hilarious how people can throw out that stuff THAT EVERY OTHER MMO HAS OUT THERE) Overall, its good to not see fanboi ranting on a big site about a game that doesn't deserved being praised as being perfect because its far from it.

     

    I'm just surprised nothing about combat was mentioned. Might just be me (doubt it) but it just feels so clunky and I don't feel much control for my character at all. I still feel they were going for the traditional MMo style but then decided mid design process to make it 'aiming' in a way but never finished it, leaving it quite a mess in how it controls. Just feels so icky to me. The simplicity of the combat would just be a personal gripe for someone who likes some challenge to play, so I guess really its silly for me to include that as a flaw. :)

  • eye_meye_m Notta Chance, ABPosts: 3,133Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Purutzil

    *Spits out coffee he was drinking* Woah, a bigger site actually admits that GW2 has flaws? Whew! Thats a nice shocker. Putting asside my partial bias against the game (Fanbois... seriously they make me hate this even more then I really do) I do find it astonishing how many people seem to so blindly consider it the holy graal, most seeming to take notes from the devs on trivial stuff they release that just makes me laugh. (Seriously I can't get over the article people used to defend "GW2 has stuff to do" its hilarious how people can throw out that stuff THAT EVERY OTHER MMO HAS OUT THERE) Overall, its good to not see fanboi ranting on a big site about a game that doesn't deserved being praised as being perfect because its far from it.

     

    I'm just surprised nothing about combat was mentioned. Might just be me (doubt it) but it just feels so clunky and I don't feel much control for my character at all. I still feel they were going for the traditional MMo style but then decided mid design process to make it 'aiming' in a way but never finished it, leaving it quite a mess in how it controls. Just feels so icky to me. The simplicity of the combat would just be a personal gripe for someone who likes some challenge to play, so I guess really its silly for me to include that as a flaw. :)

    I wonder what the world would be like if certain people didn't waste their energies on things they dislike?

     

    EDIT: Of course, some people might have difficulty understanding that concept. Those types of people are probably best ignored.

    All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

    I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.

    I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

  • KingJigglyKingJiggly Simpsonville, SCPosts: 777Member
    Okay, calm down yall before I close this thread down. 
  • pedrostrikpedrostrik lisboaPosts: 391Member

    Originally posted by BadSpock-->>Massively, who just voted GW2 game of the year, is not rosey-eyed fanbois chees'n on the current hotness 

    -Roles are horribly underexplained and unclear - Roles are very clear for people who play with group organization

    -Dynamic events don't work in their role as quest replacements - holy xit who wants those !? awful old quests again after played GW2 DE's, still they are far from perfection

    -Area flow is problematic - i agree with this

    -Crafting is a freaking mess -  not perfect but better and wise than almost crap mmo's out there

    -The story is weak - yes its true GW1 had better story and left a nice Lore unexploreded in GW2

    Massively hits on 2/5 nothing special about it, games its far from perfect but far better than almost all crappy old style mmo's out there, but if people are not happy at all at least change it for a beautiful game such as Age of Wushu - that´s a game with real innovations and World PvP with consequences

  • ScarfeScarfe londonPosts: 281Member
    Originally posted by KingJiggly
    Okay, calm down yall before I close this thread down. 

    haha, you just popped a forgetten thread back to the top, thats like a bouncer slapping you in the face when you've drunk too much. 

    But GW2, not bad but insanely overrated. 

    currently playing: DDO, AOC, WoT, P101

  • NBlitzNBlitz ZwollePosts: 1,904Member
    Got to love that edit button. Else everyone would see how two-faced certain people are image
  • eye_meye_m Notta Chance, ABPosts: 3,133Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by NBlitz
    Got to love that edit button. Else everyone would see how two-faced certain people are image

    two-faced?

    All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

    I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.

    I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

  • UkiahUkiah Austin, TXPosts: 273Member
    Originally posted by Lawlmonster
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Massively, who just voted GW2 game of the year, is not rosey-eyed fanbois chees'n on the current hotness-

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/12/19/where-guild-wars-2-goes-wrong/

    Have some pretty interesting and intelligent arguments against the game that I tend to agree with.

    Pretty much highlights the issues I have with the game almost perfectly.

     

    Good for them. It'd be nice to see more of this kind of journalism around here in featured articles.

    Indeed it would. Reviews here seem to come in two flavors: Don't have anything nice to say, don't really say anything at all -and- a rubber stamp of approval.

  • jtcgsjtcgs New Port Richey, ILPosts: 1,777Member
    Originally posted by grimal

    Wow.  Ok, first off, DPS stands for damage per second.  Combat in DnD was never based on real time.  There were turns or rounds, so how could it have been Damage Per Second?  It couldn't have been!

    Did you NOT see where I said there was a NeverWinter Night Online MMORPG made back in 1991? Or that it was followed by Meridian 59? Or how about right after that I mentioned EQ being based off them.

    D&D gold box games had SPELLS WITH LINGERING EFFECTS AND BLEEDS from melee attacks which would TICK each round of combat, This is where the idea of DAMAGE PER SECOND comes from...YEAH, Meridian 59 had real time combat and thus had DPS before EQ.

    The very idea that you are now pretending EQ is not a D&D clone is crazy, the arugment has no meaning other than to argue.

    “I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  • Skooma2Skooma2 Glenview, ILPosts: 694Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    To pique your interest - the highlights in bullet point form-

    You spelled and used pique properly.  I'm going to cry from  the realization that I am not the only one here who bothers using their brain and spellchecker before posting.

    Hedonismbot: Your latest performance was as delectable as dipping my bottom over and over into a bath of the silkiest oils and creams.

  • KingJigglyKingJiggly Simpsonville, SCPosts: 777Member
    Originally posted by Scarfe
    Originally posted by KingJiggly
    Okay, calm down yall before I close this thread down. 

    haha, you just popped a forgetten thread back to the top, thats like a bouncer slapping you in the face when you've drunk too much. 

    But GW2, not bad but insanely overrated. 

    Shhhhhhh!

  • ElikalElikal ValhallaPosts: 8,063Member
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Massively, who just voted GW2 game of the year, is not rosey-eyed fanbois chees'n on the current hotness-

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/12/19/where-guild-wars-2-goes-wrong/

    Have some pretty interesting and intelligent arguments against the game that I tend to agree with.

    Pretty much highlights the issues I have with the game almost perfectly.

    To pique your interest - the highlights in bullet point form-

    -Roles are horribly underexplained and unclear

    -Dynamic events don't work in their role as quest replacements

    -Area flow is problematic

    -Crafting is a freaking mess

    -The story is weak

     

    Better late than never.

    I think the issue with classes runs deeper than just "bad explanation". Ignoring the Trinity is no easy task. So far, I haven't see a single MMO which really succeeded in this in any long term quality. Too much a jack of all trades mentality in the GW2 classes.

    Other than that I agree to all they said.

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,267Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Rayshe
    I found there was very little to understand for GW2, the Synergies slapped you in the face for what you should go for. I'm not saying its bad, Im just saying its simpler than others. Some people want that others dont.

    Well put. 

  • AwDiddumsAwDiddums Great YarmouthPosts: 394Member Uncommon

    Having the Holy Trinity taken out of the game seemed like a blessing to my grp of guild friends, it was supposed to give us freedom to be whatever we wanted, not tied to any specific role.

    However when we entered our first dungeon we suddenly found ourselves running around like headless chickens, here was a grp of 5 friends who had been together through many MMO's over a 10 yr span, who had defeated many dungeons in our time with an air of authority as we knew our classes and our roles inside out, here we where running in circles, hitting everything in sight, not having a clue what was coming next and dying every time we where the main focus of the mob.

    Fortunately we don't take ourselves seriously, it was downright funny and bemusing to suddenly find that we just didn't have a clue how to play our classes, we where lost as to how we could overcome even the simplest of dungeon critters, in the end it was an element of pure luck and persistence that got us through to the end.

    Did we want to enter the next dungeon, not on your life, it wasn't fun anymore, if you can't figure out your roles in the dungeon, if you can't manage the simplest of mobs inside without dying 3 or 4 times whats the whole point, it becomes a frustrated mess, and your relying on zerging or out dpsing the encounter to survive.

    I know if the game introduced a Holy Trinity me and my friends would be back in the game in a heart beat, but as it stands there isn't a chance we will head back and act like headless chickens again.

     

     

  • ArskaaaArskaaa KauhajokiPosts: 842Member Uncommon
    Played 4 month GW2, get bored becouse there is not gear hunting, just buy gear and u stick with it forever. boring.
  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    They say "the story is weak" but they don't discuss how bad the RvR is?
  • asmkm22asmkm22 Anchorage, AKPosts: 1,788Member
    Without holy trinity, the game is only really good for the story, weak as it is, and the PvP.  The PvP tends to just be a zerg fest though, so even that doesn't stay interesting for long.

    You make me like charity

  • WraithoneWraithone Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 3,592Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by AwDiddums

    Having the Holy Trinity taken out of the game seemed like a blessing to my grp of guild friends, it was supposed to give us freedom to be whatever we wanted, not tied to any specific role.

    However when we entered our first dungeon we suddenly found ourselves running around like headless chickens, here was a grp of 5 friends who had been together through many MMO's over a 10 yr span, who had defeated many dungeons in our time with an air of authority as we knew our classes and our roles inside out, here we where running in circles, hitting everything in sight, not having a clue what was coming next and dying every time we where the main focus of the mob.

    Fortunately we don't take ourselves seriously, it was downright funny and bemusing to suddenly find that we just didn't have a clue how to play our classes, we where lost as to how we could overcome even the simplest of dungeon critters, in the end it was an element of pure luck and persistence that got us through to the end.

    Did we want to enter the next dungeon, not on your life, it wasn't fun anymore, if you can't figure out your roles in the dungeon, if you can't manage the simplest of mobs inside without dying 3 or 4 times whats the whole point, it becomes a frustrated mess, and your relying on zerging or out dpsing the encounter to survive.

    I know if the game introduced a Holy Trinity me and my friends would be back in the game in a heart beat, but as it stands there isn't a chance we will head back and act like headless chickens again.

     

     

    Well stated.  GW2 tried to get "creative" and in the process threw out the reason that dungeons have been fun for many people.  The trinity worked so long, so well for a reason.  GW2 dungeons have some of the worst reputation of any I've seen in years.  Sure, some people like them (so challenging...) but over all they are just a PITA for many people, so they don't even bother with them. 

  • ScarfeScarfe londonPosts: 281Member
    Originally posted by Wraithone
    Originally posted by AwDiddums

    Having the Holy Trinity taken out of the game seemed like a blessing to my grp of guild friends, it was supposed to give us freedom to be whatever we wanted, not tied to any specific role.

    However when we entered our first dungeon we suddenly found ourselves running around like headless chickens, here was a grp of 5 friends who had been together through many MMO's over a 10 yr span, who had defeated many dungeons in our time with an air of authority as we knew our classes and our roles inside out, here we where running in circles, hitting everything in sight, not having a clue what was coming next and dying every time we where the main focus of the mob.

    Fortunately we don't take ourselves seriously, it was downright funny and bemusing to suddenly find that we just didn't have a clue how to play our classes, we where lost as to how we could overcome even the simplest of dungeon critters, in the end it was an element of pure luck and persistence that got us through to the end.

    Did we want to enter the next dungeon, not on your life, it wasn't fun anymore, if you can't figure out your roles in the dungeon, if you can't manage the simplest of mobs inside without dying 3 or 4 times whats the whole point, it becomes a frustrated mess, and your relying on zerging or out dpsing the encounter to survive.

    I know if the game introduced a Holy Trinity me and my friends would be back in the game in a heart beat, but as it stands there isn't a chance we will head back and act like headless chickens again.

     

     

    Well stated.  GW2 tried to get "creative" and in the process threw out the reason that dungeons have been fun for many people.  The trinity worked so long, so well for a reason.  GW2 dungeons have some of the worst reputation of any I've seen in years.  Sure, some people like them (so challenging...) but over all they are just a PITA for many people, so they don't even bother with them. 

    I never wished for the trinity harder than after my 20th death, spawn, run, cycle in a GW2 dungeon.  GW2 tried to get rid of the trinity, the experiment failed, hopefully from now on developers will stick with the old adage 'if it ain't broke...' 

    currently playing: DDO, AOC, WoT, P101

  • VolkonVolkon Sterling, VAPosts: 3,788Member
    Originally posted by Wraithone

    Well stated.  GW2 tried to get "creative" and in the process threw out the reason that dungeons have been fun for many people.  The trinity worked so long, so well for a reason.  GW2 dungeons have some of the worst reputation of any I've seen in years.  Sure, some people like them (so challenging...) but over all they are just a PITA for many people, so they don't even bother with them. 

     What a load of bunk. There are many people finding GW2 dungeons the best they've seen in years as well, and tossing out the pigeon-holing trinity (and the incessant vertical progression)  tossed out with it most of the reasons dungeons became boring jobs instead of fun instances with a variety of things that could go wrong, or right. The only reason the trinity appeared to work for so long is that people were sucked along with the gear grind, and once someone created a video on the "right" way to do each dungeon thought was tossed out the window in lieu of a script.

     

    When what the last time anyone, outside of GW2, went into a dungeon and actually had to figure out how to do it? Through all my years in WoW we always followed the script that Blizzard gave to the top guilds in beta, and that was it. Follow the script. Screw up and tank or healer dies, wipe and start over. DPS dies so you can't meet the enrage timer, wipe and start over. Blame the hunter.

    Oderint, dum metuant.
    image

  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member
    Originally posted by Scarfe
    Originally posted by Wraithone
    Originally posted by AwDiddums

    Having the Holy Trinity taken out of the game seemed like a blessing to my grp of guild friends, it was supposed to give us freedom to be whatever we wanted, not tied to any specific role.

    However when we entered our first dungeon we suddenly found ourselves running around like headless chickens, here was a grp of 5 friends who had been together through many MMO's over a 10 yr span, who had defeated many dungeons in our time with an air of authority as we knew our classes and our roles inside out, here we where running in circles, hitting everything in sight, not having a clue what was coming next and dying every time we where the main focus of the mob.

    Fortunately we don't take ourselves seriously, it was downright funny and bemusing to suddenly find that we just didn't have a clue how to play our classes, we where lost as to how we could overcome even the simplest of dungeon critters, in the end it was an element of pure luck and persistence that got us through to the end.

    Did we want to enter the next dungeon, not on your life, it wasn't fun anymore, if you can't figure out your roles in the dungeon, if you can't manage the simplest of mobs inside without dying 3 or 4 times whats the whole point, it becomes a frustrated mess, and your relying on zerging or out dpsing the encounter to survive.

    I know if the game introduced a Holy Trinity me and my friends would be back in the game in a heart beat, but as it stands there isn't a chance we will head back and act like headless chickens again.

     

     

    Well stated.  GW2 tried to get "creative" and in the process threw out the reason that dungeons have been fun for many people.  The trinity worked so long, so well for a reason.  GW2 dungeons have some of the worst reputation of any I've seen in years.  Sure, some people like them (so challenging...) but over all they are just a PITA for many people, so they don't even bother with them. 

    I never wished for the trinity harder than after my 20th death, spawn, run, cycle in a GW2 dungeon.  GW2 tried to get rid of the trinity, the experiment failed, hopefully from now on developers will stick with the old adage 'if it ain't broke...' 

    The game didn't fail. You failed to adapt. After the first run of each dungeon I pretty much never die.

    Healers are a clutch for bad players. Its not them, its the healer, or the tank, or someone else. Its never them that is terrible.

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