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Scissor, paper, stone

ScarfeScarfe londonPosts: 281Member

I have spent a little time playing WoT, casually; which, by the by, I think deserves its plaudits.  It has a scissor, paper, stone set up.  Why don't more MMO's do this, it (IMO) would make pvp far more interesting.  For example, tank kills mage, mage kills rogue, rogue kills tank. 

Does anyone know of any games with this setup?

currently playing: DDO, AOC, WoT, P101

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Comments

  • tom_goretom_gore TamperePosts: 1,796Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Scarfe

    I have spent a little time playing WoT, casually; which, by the by, I think deserves its plaudits.  It has a scissor, paper, stone set up.  Why don't more MMO's do this, it (IMO) would make pvp far more interesting.  For example, tank kills mage, mage kills rogue, rogue kills tank. 

    Does anyone know of any games with this setup?

    Warhammer used to have that. Don't know if it does anymore.

    And it's called Rock, Paper, Scissors.

  • ScarfeScarfe londonPosts: 281Member
    not here it isn't ;)

    currently playing: DDO, AOC, WoT, P101

  • anemoanemo Posts: 761Member Uncommon

    I think it's kind of annoying that if both parties have equally good play the outcome is already determined.

    If both parties have equally good play, the battle should continue until there is interferance from allies, some gambit works, or someone "done and goofed up".

    Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.

    "There are still vast swaths of our planet's surface in which it's surprisingly easy to lose things. Even a ship the size of a large building." Richard Fisher

  • MyTabbycatMyTabbycat SP, MOPosts: 312Member

    Does that mean only certain classes can kill only certain other classes? Isn't that rather limiting? What if I'm a rogue and I want to kill the mage but not the tank? Are you telling me I can't?

    If that's the case, I wouldn't play that game.

  • DarwaDarwa CambridgePosts: 2,184Member Common
    Originally posted by Scarfe
    not here it isn't ;)

    Maybe not in London, but in the rest of the UK it is :p

     

    ****EDIT****

     

    Actually, it's called 'Rock, Paper, Scissors' in London as well, so it would seem. The UK championships were held there in September. I bet that was exciting.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock-paper-scissors#UK_Rock_Paper_Scissors_Championships

    http://www.ukrockpaperscissorschampionships.com

  • cdesteycdestey Bethlehem, GAPosts: 70Member
    Originally posted by darwa
    Originally posted by Scarfe
    not here it isn't ;)

    Maybe not in London, but in the rest of the UK it is :p

     "here" = his head

  • ScarfeScarfe londonPosts: 281Member
    Originally posted by MyTabbycat

    Does that mean only certain classes can kill only certain other classes? Isn't that rather limiting? What if I'm a rogue and I want to kill the mage but not the tank? Are you telling me I can't?

    If that's the case, I wouldn't play that game.

    Of course not, you would just have an advantage against certain other classes, rather than makin all classes homogenous and dull. 

    currently playing: DDO, AOC, WoT, P101

  • ScarfeScarfe londonPosts: 281Member
    Originally posted by cdestey
    Originally posted by darwa
    Originally posted by Scarfe
    not here it isn't ;)

    Maybe not in London, but in the rest of the UK it is :p

     "here" = his head

    Really?  I've never known anyone call it anything other than scissor, paper, stone outside the US. 

    currently playing: DDO, AOC, WoT, P101

  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,473Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by tom_gore
    Originally posted by Scarfe

    I have spent a little time playing WoT, casually; which, by the by, I think deserves its plaudits.  It has a scissor, paper, stone set up.  Why don't more MMO's do this, it (IMO) would make pvp far more interesting.  For example, tank kills mage, mage kills rogue, rogue kills tank. 

    Does anyone know of any games with this setup?

    Warhammer used to have that. Don't know if it does anymore.

    And it's called Rock, Paper, Scissors.

     Generally of the type:  Non transitive Game.

  • MyTabbycatMyTabbycat SP, MOPosts: 312Member

    For me it's Rock but if you want to use a Stone I guess that's ok.

    Still not sure about your combat theory. I guess I'd have to try it and see what it's about. But I'm not convinced it would be more fun than just using skill and tactics to beat your opponants.

  • PyrateLVPyrateLV Las Vegas, NVPosts: 1,096Member Common

    Its also called Ro Sham Bo

     

    ** no,not the South Park version

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  • TorgenTorgen MoenchengladbachPosts: 154Member

    Yeah I know what you mean and I liked it back when I played Dark Age of Camelot. As an assassin or archer you would always try to get the mages/supporters first because they were the easiest and most important kills, but tanks had so much absorb,armor,life and often stuns that you avoided them. 

     

    That does not mean it was impossible to kill a tank as an assassin. If you paired up you could also gank single tanks which was common in groupfights.

     

    Mh.. now I feel like playing DAoC but it has changed so much in many regards.

  • Oracle_FefeOracle_Fefe N/A, NYPosts: 221Member

    It's alright for games where you can easily change your role. If you're a mage in a game where you can easily switch to warrior or rogue, and a rogue keeps on getting you, then switch to warrior next game or something and counter his playstyle.

    MMORPGs..not quite. If you roll a mage, you're stuck as a mage and will forever be tormented by thieves with barely anything you can do. Sometimes it's alright in team-based combat, but 1v1 or 2v2 rock paper scissors isn't generally well-liked.

  • ZyzraZyzra Madison, WIPosts: 354Member
    Originally posted by Scarfe
    Originally posted by cdestey
    Originally posted by darwa
    Originally posted by Scarfe
    not here it isn't ;)

    Maybe not in London, but in the rest of the UK it is :p

     "here" = his head

    Really?  I've never known anyone call it anything other than scissor, paper, stone outside the US. 

    Yeah I've never heard it called that thing you wrote either.  I'm from US.  It's probably related to that game telephone, where you tell people something and they tell and so on until the original message becomes distorted.  In other words, the four year olds told you the wrong name of it.

  • ScarfeScarfe londonPosts: 281Member
    Originally posted by Zyzra
    Originally posted by Scarfe
    Originally posted by cdestey
    Originally posted by darwa
    Originally posted by Scarfe
    not here it isn't ;)

    Maybe not in London, but in the rest of the UK it is :p

     "here" = his head

    Really?  I've never known anyone call it anything other than scissor, paper, stone outside the US. 

    Yeah I've never heard it called that thing you wrote either.  I'm from US.  It's probably related to that game telephone, where you tell people something and they tell and so on until the original message becomes distorted.  In other words, the four year olds told you the wrong name of it.

    Chinese whispers?

    currently playing: DDO, AOC, WoT, P101

  • BanaghranBanaghran HuisoPosts: 869Member

    Unfortunately, the rock paper scissors concept really works only up to a certain complexity of the game, both how the game combat is "physically" engaging ("skill based gameplay") and in terms of content diversity.

    If the game is too much skill based, the pvp jocks will be angry (however it may be in reality) because they KNOW that they are better than YOU, they blame the system for not giving the ANY chance of winning.

    On the opposite side, the pve nerds will be unhappy if they select a character that is good in the system, but useless in parts of the pve game, consequently potentionally creating a situation when there is no rock and scissors rule supreme, this problem increases exponentially with how many "items" we add to the system (in case we add lizard and Spock, "paper disproves Spock" :) ) and the game (world pve, small scale pve, large scale pve....) .

    In the end devs resort to balancing pvp with simple asumptions, which may turn out good or bad.

    One of the most annoying assumptions is that if noone makes a mistake, the pvp match goes on forever.

    Flame on!

    :)

  • ScarfeScarfe londonPosts: 281Member
    Originally posted by Banaghran

    Unfortunately, the rock paper scissors concept really works only up to a certain complexity of the game, both how the game combat is "physically" engaging ("skill based gameplay") and in terms of content diversity.

    If the game is too much skill based, the pvp jocks will be angry (however it may be in reality) because they KNOW that they are better than YOU, they blame the system for not giving the ANY chance of winning.

    On the opposite side, the pve nerds will be unhappy if they select a character that is good in the system, but useless in parts of the pve game, consequently potentionally creating a situation when there is no rock and scissors rule supreme, this problem increases exponentially with how many "items" we add to the system (in case we add lizard and Spock, "paper disproves Spock" :) ) and the game (world pve, small scale pve, large scale pve....) .

    In the end devs resort to balancing pvp with simple asumptions, which may turn out good or bad.

    One of the most annoying assumptions is that if noone makes a mistake, the pvp match goes on forever.

    Flame on!

    :)

    I thought Kirk fought the lizard?

    currently playing: DDO, AOC, WoT, P101

  • ZyzraZyzra Madison, WIPosts: 354Member
    Originally posted by Scarfe
    Originally posted by Zyzra
    Originally posted by Scarfe
    Originally posted by cdestey
    Originally posted by darwa
    Originally posted by Scarfe
    not here it isn't ;)

    Maybe not in London, but in the rest of the UK it is :p

     "here" = his head

    Really?  I've never known anyone call it anything other than scissor, paper, stone outside the US. 

    Yeah I've never heard it called that thing you wrote either.  I'm from US.  It's probably related to that game telephone, where you tell people something and they tell and so on until the original message becomes distorted.  In other words, the four year olds told you the wrong name of it.

    Chinese whispers?

    Exactly, that one.  I am from the US though, which is where it is called Telephone.  I have heard it called Chinese Whispers before though, and wouldn't claim that I would never consider it called by anything other than Telephone though :P

  • BanaghranBanaghran HuisoPosts: 869Member
    Originally posted by Scarfe
    Originally posted by Banaghran

    Unfortunately, the rock paper scissors concept really works only up to a certain complexity of the game, both how the game combat is "physically" engaging ("skill based gameplay") and in terms of content diversity.

    If the game is too much skill based, the pvp jocks will be angry (however it may be in reality) because they KNOW that they are better than YOU, they blame the system for not giving the ANY chance of winning.

    On the opposite side, the pve nerds will be unhappy if they select a character that is good in the system, but useless in parts of the pve game, consequently potentionally creating a situation when there is no rock and scissors rule supreme, this problem increases exponentially with how many "items" we add to the system (in case we add lizard and Spock, "paper disproves Spock" :) ) and the game (world pve, small scale pve, large scale pve....) .

    In the end devs resort to balancing pvp with simple asumptions, which may turn out good or bad.

    One of the most annoying assumptions is that if noone makes a mistake, the pvp match goes on forever.

    Flame on!

    :)

    I thought Kirk fought the lizard?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kov2G0GouBw

    And yes, he shot him in the end with a hand cannon...

    Flame on!

    :)

  • ZyzraZyzra Madison, WIPosts: 354Member
    Originally posted by Banaghran

    Flame on!

    :)

    Do you also write letters to people and sign them with, instead of your name, a "Flame on! :)" at the end?

    Just so you know, not everyone who replies to you or even disagrees is flaming.

    I just worry because I would hate for this to become such a habit to you that when you make a statement in real life you'd say "Flame on!" and then tilt your head to an extreme sideways angle and smile.

    I'm trying to help.

  • DarwaDarwa CambridgePosts: 2,184Member Common
    Originally posted by Zyzra
    Originally posted by Banaghran

    Flame on!

    :)

    Do you also write letters to people and sign them with, instead of your name, a "Flame on! :)" at the end?

    Just so you know, not everyone who replies to you or even disagrees is flaming.

    I just worry because I would hate for this to become such a habit to you that when you make a statement in real life you'd say "Flame on!" and then tilt your head to an extreme sideways angle and smile.

    I'm trying to help.

    Hehe. Beautifully done :)

  • Po_ggPo_gg Twigwarren, WestfarthingPosts: 2,714Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Banaghran
    Originally posted by Scarfe
    Originally posted by Banaghran

    we add to the system (in case we add lizard and Spock, "paper disproves Spock" :) ) and the game (world pve, small scale pve, large scale pve....) .

    I thought Kirk fought the lizard?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kov2G0GouBw

    And yes, he shot him in the end with a hand cannon...

    Flame on!

    :)

    I almost bought once a Rock Paper Scissors Lizard Spock t-shirt, but I cancelled the order 'cos I wouldn't dare to wear it in public anyways :) but yep, Sheldon rocks.

    And for "Kirk fought the lizard" I'd love to see when you say a Gorn "lizard" to his face :)

     

    Edit: damn, between the smileys I forgot to add, DCUO is the most obvious example for rock paper scissors (not a personal experience since I don't pvp, just familiar with the system). It's exactly the setup you wrote in OP.

  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,911Member Uncommon

    I think in some ways, most class systems both PVE and PVP have some basis in this.  If there was no weakness or strength related to combat with other classes, then all classes would be just about identical.

     


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
  • BanaghranBanaghran HuisoPosts: 869Member
    Originally posted by darwa
    Originally posted by Zyzra
    Originally posted by Banaghran

    Flame on!

    :)

    Do you also write letters to people and sign them with, instead of your name, a "Flame on! :)" at the end?

    Just so you know, not everyone who replies to you or even disagrees is flaming.

    I just worry because I would hate for this to become such a habit to you that when you make a statement in real life you'd say "Flame on!" and then tilt your head to an extreme sideways angle and smile.

    I'm trying to help.

    Hehe. Beautifully done :)

    The number of emails i have to write daily is disproportional to the number of posts i write here.

    So, bad for you, good for me, another one caught :)

    Flame on!

    :)

  • defector1968defector1968 Nar ShaddaaPosts: 393Member Common
    Originally posted by tom_gore
    Originally posted by Scarfe

    I have spent a little time playing WoT, casually; which, by the by, I think deserves its plaudits.  It has a scissor, paper, stone set up.  Why don't more MMO's do this, it (IMO) would make pvp far more interesting.  For example, tank kills mage, mage kills rogue, rogue kills tank. 

    Does anyone know of any games with this setup?

    Warhammer used to have that. Don't know if it does anymore.

    And it's called Rock, Paper, Scissors.

    depends of the country, how the words mostly fits

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