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How the Developers are out of touch.....

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  • MaelwyddMaelwydd CrawleyPosts: 1,123Member
    Originally posted by MyTabbycat
    The devs have said that quest givers won't have exclamation marks over their heads. You actually have to go out in the world and talk to the NPC's to find out if they have any quests for you to do. So in that sense, questing will not be at all like WoW. Also, using the compass is optional. It will work like it does in Skyrim - pointing out points of interest as you get closer to them.

    Except if I am playing a Breton then that POI that shows up when I am on the border of Skyrim will be permanently out of reach as a Breton cannot enter Skyrim due to hardcoded faction restrictions on where you can go on the map.

    There are 10 teritories (1 of them PvP) so any character you create will be able to explore their 3 faction lands and the pvp area or 40% of the entire game world. If you don't enjoy PvP then that is 30% of the game will be unavailable to you unless you create another character in another faction. Currently you will never be able to see HighRock and the teeth of the world on the same character.

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by lizardbones
    ... I think the mega server thing is a fine solution. We're never going to get back to servers where everyone knows each other, so we may as well be on servers that get us near the people we know.
    I think I'm missing something here. This doesn't make sense to me.

    You, and your friends, decide to play a game. You look into the game and see they have servers to choose from. You each roll on an agreed upon server. How does one NOT find their friends now?

    Or how about this... You are playing a game which has servers and you cajole a friend or two or three to join in the fun. I am pretty sure you let them know what server you are playing on before they dig into the game.

    In another scenario, you alone choose a game to play and it has servers to select from. You roll your character and start playing. Along the way you make some friends. And maybe some enemies, too :) Again, how does one NOT find their friends on the same server as they are?

    Am I missing something here about mege-servers? Why on earth would I need software to decide what players are "best for me?" If I feel like heavy duty combat because I had a bad day at work, does this mega-server find others who are looking to kick ass and take names? How about a nice relaxing session of crafting? Does the same thing happen? What happens to the people on my friends list? Will we ALWAYS be on the same server like we were in games of old?

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    Originally posted by lizardbones
    ... I think the mega server thing is a fine solution. We're never going to get back to servers where everyone knows each other, so we may as well be on servers that get us near the people we know.
    I think I'm missing something here. This doesn't make sense to me.

    You, and your friends, decide to play a game. You look into the game and see they have servers to choose from. You each roll on an agreed upon server. How does one NOT find their friends now?

    Or how about this... You are playing a game which has servers and you cajole a friend or two or three to join in the fun. I am pretty sure you let them know what server you are playing on before they dig into the game.

    In another scenario, you alone choose a game to play and it has servers to select from. You roll your character and start playing. Along the way you make some friends. And maybe some enemies, too :) Again, how does one NOT find their friends on the same server as they are?

    Am I missing something here about mege-servers? Why on earth would I need software to decide what players are "best for me?" If I feel like heavy duty combat because I had a bad day at work, does this mega-server find others who are looking to kick ass and take names? How about a nice relaxing session of crafting? Does the same thing happen? What happens to the people on my friends list? Will we ALWAYS be on the same server like we were in games of old?



    I've been in several MMORPG where one person starts one day or one week, and another person starts on another day or a different and rolling on the same server is impossible*. By the time it is possible, time has already been invested in the characters, so people end up playing on different servers.

    Not as often, but a couple times I've met people through my wife's work who played the same games I did, but we were on different servers, and had invested time in our characters and switching servers was either not an option, or cost money. I would expect this is the same for anyone you meet outside of a game, on forums for the game or forums like the MMORPG.com forums.

    It's the reason people spend so much time whining about server transfers.

    The argument against mega-servers is that there is no community of known people. There's no community of known people anyway because there are thousands of people on servers now. "Communities" as such went away sometime around 2006. Using it as a complaint against a particular server schema now doesn't even make sense.

    TESO's system will attempt to put you in the same channel as your friends, from your friends list. I'm not sure about enemies, but it would be nice to have an enemies list as well. You can also change channels manually if you want. You have the same random chance of running into people who share your mood as you would with any server schema.

    * When new games launch.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Maelwydd
    Originally posted by MyTabbycat The devs have said that quest givers won't have exclamation marks over their heads. You actually have to go out in the world and talk to the NPC's to find out if they have any quests for you to do. So in that sense, questing will not be at all like WoW. Also, using the compass is optional. It will work like it does in Skyrim - pointing out points of interest as you get closer to them.
    Except if I am playing a Breton then that POI that shows up when I am on the border of Skyrim will be permanently out of reach as a Breton cannot enter Skyrim due to hardcoded faction restrictions on where you can go on the map.

    There are 10 teritories (1 of them PvP) so any character you create will be able to explore their 3 faction lands and the pvp area or 40% of the entire game world. If you don't enjoy PvP then that is 30% of the game will be unavailable to you unless you create another character in another faction. Currently you will never be able to see HighRock and the teeth of the world on the same character.




    If the areas are accessible only to particular factions, that means there is no overlap in content. Usually the problem with alternate factions is overlapping content, which isn't the case here.

    Pick your poison - overlapping content where rolling another character in a different faction or as a different race is redundant, but you can explore everything on one character, OR rolling another character in a different faction results in 100% new content that you can't otherwise experience, but you can't explore the world on one character.

    It's a trade-off.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • VorthanionVorthanion Laguna Vista, TXPosts: 2,117Member Uncommon

    It sure would be nice to have a modern AAA MMO with absolutely no PvP or Raiding in it.  I have to wonder if maybe that is the reason for much of the turnover in modern MMOs.  Too much PvP / Raiding in the genre when the majority of gamers aren't interested in them.  Why aren't there more games without them?  That to me indicates an industry that is completely out of touch with their consumers.

     

    Hopefully, as modern MMOs continue to fail to retain players, they will begin a paradigm shift with MMO features and mechanics and content.  I don't believe changing the combat mechanics has ever been the issue with reviving player interest.  I think it's the constant regurgitation of the same or similar style of content, features and game mechanics that are really the problem.  Has any developer even tried to come up with a different end game scenario other than raiding or pvp?  We know that virtual worlds are quite addictive, yet every developer has made every effort to get away from them and hash out instance lobby games like rats having babies.  Perhaps another part of the problem are lazy, corner cutting development houses?  The focus used to be about long term profits, yet today the focus is on short term profits.  Who needs good quality for short term?

    image
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by lizardbones

    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    Originally posted by lizardbones
    ... I think the mega server thing is a fine solution. We're never going to get back to servers where everyone knows each other, so we may as well be on servers that get us near the people we know.
    I think I'm missing something here. This doesn't make sense to me.You, and your friends, decide to play a game. You look into the game and see they have servers to choose from. You each roll on an agreed upon server. How does one NOT find their friends now?Or how about this... You are playing a game which has servers and you cajole a friend or two or three to join in the fun. I am pretty sure you let them know what server you are playing on before they dig into the game.In another scenario, you alone choose a game to play and it has servers to select from. You roll your character and start playing. Along the way you make some friends. And maybe some enemies, too :) Again, how does one NOT find their friends on the same server as they are?Am I missing something here about mege-servers? Why on earth would I need software to decide what players are "best for me?" If I feel like heavy duty combat because I had a bad day at work, does this mega-server find others who are looking to kick ass and take names? How about a nice relaxing session of crafting? Does the same thing happen? What happens to the people on my friends list? Will we ALWAYS be on the same server like we were in games of old?
    I've been in several MMORPG where one person starts one day or one week, and another person starts on another day or a different and rolling on the same server is impossible*. By the time it is possible, time has already been invested in the characters, so people end up playing on different servers.

    Not as often, but a couple times I've met people through my wife's work who played the same games I did, but we were on different servers, and had invested time in our characters and switching servers was either not an option, or cost money. I would expect this is the same for anyone you meet outside of a game, on forums for the game or forums like the MMORPG.com forums.

    It's the reason people spend so much time whining about server transfers.

    The argument against mega-servers is that there is no community of known people. There's no community of known people anyway because there are thousands of people on servers now. "Communities" as such went away sometime around 2006. Using it as a complaint against a particular server schema now doesn't even make sense.

    TESO's system will attempt to put you in the same channel as your friends, from your friends list. I'm not sure about enemies, but it would be nice to have an enemies list as well. You can also change channels manually if you want. You have the same random chance of running into people who share your mood as you would with any server schema.

    * When new games launch.

    Thanks for the explanation, lizardbones :) I am still unsure about mega-server yet, but I understand the theory better.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • LucioonLucioon Palm Harbor, FLPosts: 814Member Uncommon

    Elder Scrolls = Freedom to choose your path

    There are still people who haven't gone through the main plot of Skyrim, they are spending their times killing dragons, exploring each inch of the maps, and finding caves. There are mods out there that eliminated the Compass, where people just explore randomly.

    When you lock your characters in Factions and Races then Class, you are no longer playing an Elder Scrolls, you are playing an Regular RPG.

    Is that bad? Not if you are looking for an RPG that everyone else is creating.

    But don't try to say its an Elder Scrolls. Sure, it might be hard putting Online Mode into an Game where you are the focus, then trying to make the Game world where everyone is the focus. But isn't that the Jobs of the Developers to figure a way to make everyone important.

    If I remember correctly, before Morrowind and Skyrim, your character was just a regular person whom was in the wrong place at the right time, helping people because you needed something from them. It was more of an This for That exchange with NPC. You weren't the super Hero that everyone worships.

    Why can't Elder Scrolls Online do that, Give us the World, an Elder Scrolls World. Instead of an Normal Everyday MMORPG world, where if I just change the name to RPG World online, it would still work.

    Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.

  • SuprGamerXSuprGamerX Montreal, QCPosts: 531Member
    Originally posted by ZigZags

    My biggest concern about an IP that I grew up with and love is that the developers are so out of touch with reality that they are heading down a path similar to what BioWare did with SWTOR. Based on what we know today, I believe TESO will havea  fate similar to SWTOR. Huge budget, exciting for the first 30-90 days, then drop off and fail status shortly after. Here's why.

     

    at 0:27 Matt Firor thinks they are bringing two different types of players together into one game. As a result they are mixing TES features with "popular" MMO features that two different players will be familiar with and like. This is so not true at all. Of the 27 friends on my Steam list that play TES series, all of them play MMO games as well. These are the same player base. Not two different. By adding features like, instances, short term instanced battlegrounds, factions, zone locks etc. they think they will combine the two player bases together. They don't understand that the two are one and the same and are sick and tired of instanced zones, short term battlegrounds, zone locks and lack of freedom.

     

    at 3:11 Matt Firor thinks that the worst experience in an MMO at the early stages is not being able to find your friends. So their solution is "Mega Server" where the computer decides which server/instance to put you in. This could not be further from the truth. I have played MMOs for 17 years and never once did I have problems finding my friends because we all knew before hand where we were going to play. How? Because we are friends duh, we communicate via chat, phone, text and we all know where we are going. Having a "smart computer" tell you where you are going means 2 bad things: 1) How does it know who your friends are and where it will put you? It doesn't and at first, it wont. 2) This means the game is going to be HEAVILY instanced. This is bad because maybe you want to stalk an opponent who's been killing you and since you're not friends, maybe you wont be on the same server today...I see this is TESO dev team jumping on to some new server technology (that SWTOR used) because it sounds good, but as we have already seen. It wont be.

     

    at 8:04 This is what GW2 did and is totally stupid and is what happens when you force and funnel people to a PVP area. Rather than giving us an open world we can PVP in at any level which is what we haven't seen in a while and is something I think most of s hunger for. Zenimax is failing hard here.

     

    These are just a few examples of how I believe the Developers are out of touch with what the MMO/TES fans and players are thirsting for in this title. As in all previous TES, we want a non linear OPEN WORLD where we can do what we want when we want. Factions are OK if you allow cross factions to explore the opposing faction's areas. By zone locking us out and funneling us into Cyrodil you are no different than what SWTOR tried to do, what GW2 is doing and failing at and what DAOC did but was never as big as it wanted to be. Zenimax should take lessons from the failures of the past and not make the same mistakes. Take EQ as an example. As a Halfing I could venture to Dark Elf territory and sweat bullets that I wouldn't be detected and KOS. THAT's the kind of feel we want. Not some carebear safety zones with a race to 50 so we can pvp in Cyrodil and definitely not the computer auto scaling my level and gear so I can fight in Cyrodil at lvl 10. That is so carebear and NOT what TES fans are going to pay for long term.

    I only hope TESO is 3-4 years down the road , and not planning a 2013 release , otherwise it will fail , and I don't care how popular Skyrim is...

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,860Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Lucioon

    But isn't that the Jobs of the Developers to figure a way to make everyone important.

    No, it is not their job to make a game for you exclusively.

  • MyTabbycatMyTabbycat SP, MOPosts: 312Member
    Originally posted by Lucioon

    Elder Scrolls = Freedom to choose your path

    There are still people who haven't gone through the main plot of Skyrim, they are spending their times killing dragons, exploring each inch of the maps, and finding caves. There are mods out there that eliminated the Compass, where people just explore randomly.

    When you lock your characters in Factions and Races then Class, you are no longer playing an Elder Scrolls, you are playing an Regular RPG.

    Is that bad? Not if you are looking for an RPG that everyone else is creating.

    But don't try to say its an Elder Scrolls. Sure, it might be hard putting Online Mode into an Game where you are the focus, then trying to make the Game world where everyone is the focus. But isn't that the Jobs of the Developers to figure a way to make everyone important.

    If I remember correctly, before Morrowind and Skyrim, your character was just a regular person whom was in the wrong place at the right time, helping people because you needed something from them. It was more of an This for That exchange with NPC. You weren't the super Hero that everyone worships.

    Why can't Elder Scrolls Online do that, Give us the World, an Elder Scrolls World. Instead of an Normal Everyday MMORPG world, where if I just change the name to RPG World online, it would still work.

    I'm one of those who will never finish the main quest because I get side tracked by shinies. I never finished Morrowind or Oblivion for the same reason.

    As for the faction locking, there is a reason behind it that does make sense. Sure, we don't like it because it's TES and we expect to be able to explore everythng we can. But as someone pointed out somewhere else, even in the stand alone games, with the exception of Arena, we were only given one map to explore (not including any expansions).

  • TrionicusTrionicus Fort Lauderdale, FLPosts: 497Member
    Originally posted by Jyiiga
    Originally posted by deakon
    Originally posted by Jyiiga

    Yeah I agree with several others here. I get a GW2 vibe from a lot of what they say. I really do not get a Elder Scrolls vibe from anything beyond the setting of the game.

    Most of the things that draw me to Elder Scrolls games and suck up hundreds of my hours.. Do not appear to exist in this title. 

    When you start mashing in things like class based gameplay, group oriented dungeons, pvp areas... None of that is ES at all and all of it has already been done many times. 

    So an elder scrolls mmo should have no pvp or group content then? Wouldnt that just be TES:VI then tho?

    After watching that 10 minute trailer that put out for the game I was literally laughing in my chair. Watching scenes where it was taking 5+ people to take down things like a Flame Atronach was just plain silly to me. Dungeons from all the other ES titles were a very special experience.. Creeping through them slowly, watching for traps, stealth takedowns, epic battles against superior odds. Then you watch that video and see people bunny hopping about.. Nothing during those 10 minutes of footage made it look different over anything else we have. It looked just like a WOW/SWTOR dungeon zerg. 

     

    If what they have shown us so far.... Is what the game is going to be like.. Its going to be another 2-3 month speed bump title for the majority of the people that play it. 

     

    As far as I knew, bethesda had nothing to do with the development of TESO. That ofcourse leads me to think is just a branding scam seeing as how it's been pointed out a bunch of times how the lore has been butchered in order to make race / map locations easier.

     

    I wasn't impressed with the gameplay video either and the only thing I hope for at this point is that they don't pull a SWTOR on me I.E. Delay or cancel another single player RPG installment in favor of attempting to get more sales from their online title.

     

    That gameplay video was pretty disturbing actually. I felt like I was being scammed when they kept showing the melee characters in the Skyrim horned helmet. I'm looking for a longterm mmo home, this isn't it.

  • MyTabbycatMyTabbycat SP, MOPosts: 312Member

    Because this confuses people, I'll break it down for you.

    ZeniMax Media Inc. - the parent company http://www.zenimax.com/ They own Bethesda Softworks, Bethesda Game Studios and Zenimax Online Studios as well as some others.

    Bethesda Softworks - the publisher http://bethsoft.com/

    Bethesda Game Studios - the makers of the TES series Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim http://bgs.bethsoft.com/

    ZeniMax Online Studios - the makers of The Elder Scrolls Online http://www.zenimaxonline.com/index.html

  • ArglebargleArglebargle Austin, TXPosts: 1,413Member Uncommon

    Pedantic aside.....horned helmets are a fantasy horror.  Historically, horned helmets did not exist (except for certain ritual or display versions), because they will get you killed.  Helmets are supposed to cushion and redirect the blows, not channel the force into your skull!

     

    It's an idiot fantasy trope.

     

    Sadly, like most large MMOs, it is years between the initial choices on the design and the final release.  ESO was conceived of 3 to 4 years ago, a time when some of their decisions may have seemed more appropos.  

     

    I think one of the reasons that it may have gotten more support is due to the transferability of the art assets from single player to MMO and vice versa. 

    If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  • MaelwyddMaelwydd CrawleyPosts: 1,123Member
    Originally posted by MyTabbycat
     

    As for the faction locking, there is a reason behind it that does make sense. Sure, we don't like it because it's TES and we expect to be able to explore everythng we can. But as someone pointed out somewhere else, even in the stand alone games, with the exception of Arena, we were only given one map to explore (not including any expansions).

    Problem is, we still only have 1 map to explore, but parts of it are blocked due to faction. The whole argument about being able to only explore skyrim when playing skyrim etc... is redundent. In skyrim the area of skyrim was the full extent of the map...and you could go anywhere within that fully. InTESO the full extent of the map is not available to your character...you have to have at least 3 characters to explore the extent of the game.

    I don't don't mind if they make it next to impossible to explore another factions homeland but I want the FREEDOM to CHOOSE if I go there, not some artificial blocking mechanism. That just isn't a TES game. And I could care less if the argument is "well TESO is an MMO" because the reason we cannot explore the extent of the map on 1 character is due to a design choice, not because it isn't available in the game. These other lands exist, my character knows they exist, but they simply cannot go tehre because there is an invisible wall blocking the way.

    It really is, for me the main stumbling point in getting the game. Time will tell if I can accept it, I love playing alts afterall so perhaps it is going to eventually be of with me, but the problem I have currently is that I am FORCED into something that really isn't neccessay and really isn't in the spirit of a TES game. MMO or not they have chosen to put this limitation in, it isn't a case of "not enough time to put these other areas into the game" because they are in the game, we just cannot go there.

  • jtcgsjtcgs New Port Richey, ILPosts: 1,777Member

    OP, I agree for the most part.

    To everyone else...

    I am a business. My business makes games, but like any business I must make money. So, I am going to make a game, its going to be an MMORPG. I have an idea for my game and I must make my game in a way that is going to appeal to as many people as possible to make sure my chances of making money is high. However I must also be realistic in that it is not possible to make a game that EVERYONE is going to like...so.

    I need to break down the playerbase into catagories!

    PvPers, RPers, PvEers, Solo players, small group players, Raiders, Hardcore Raiders, Crafters.

    Then there are other sub-catagories

    Themepark players, open-world players, need your hand held? want little help? daily questers, instance lovers, guide rails, detailed story, no story...this list has a TON more...

    As a game maker I "want" to do as much possible to offer things to appeal to everyone above, but if I DO that I wont satisfy ANYONE because there just plain wont be enough content for everyone, the pickings will be slim...so now I have to do something difficult. PICK which if you I find most important and build a game for you, sadly, I AM going to pick what has the MOST player types in it because I need to make MONEY>

    So far, everything I just typed should be OBVIOUS to you right? whats the point of my saying all this? Simple.

    Once you throw in a known IP like The Elder Scrolls, an IP from a genre that is NOT the same, you throw in a WORLD OF HURT.

    Because now you have the fans of that IP that likes a completely different set of game play...so, who are you targetting? Them? Or the players of the new genre(MMO)? Also, if you are NOT targetting the fans of the original IP...why are you using the IP?

    So, If you dont target the fans of the IP (single player RPG), your game will be hit with a ton of hate and worse yet, could harm the IP overall because some of those players will buy the game(seeing the name), hate it and may not buy the new game of the original genre. If you DO target them you will fail because you are now trying to make fans of one type of game like another type that is nothing like the original and MMO players will go "WTF is this? This isnt an MMO" (see SWTOR).

    There are just too many aspects of the original IP that will be lost in translation. The core of the IP, its freedom, from character aspects to combat, both magic and melee are going to be impossible to do to make both player types happy. Once you start throwing in MMO staples, the original IP became nothing more than names of places, NPCs and monster skins. A game in TES name only.

    From a business standpoint, it doesnt make sense. Better off going with an original IP or an IP already in the genre. Sadly, my business is that of a SMALL business, one still connected to REALITY and can see this...corporations however only see numbers on paper, not based in reality and have no clue what consumers really want anymore.

    “I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  • koboldfodderkoboldfodder Danbury, DEPosts: 390Member Uncommon

    Here is how TESO should have been developed.

     

    -Make all of Tamriel available for any character to explore.  Whether it is a level based game or a skill based game, this forces you to develop one big area of content instead of having to do three areas of content for every single game update.  In the current setting, if one factioned area has a specific type of content/reward you can bet they will have to copy and paste it to the other two realms.

    -Make some areas "buildable" where factions/guilds can create city states and such.

    -Dump factions at character creation.  All characters start off as neutral.  There are three factions to join (same ones) but you need to gain faction with them to join (like Rebel or Imp in SWG).

    -All PVP happens in the game world, no separate zones no instances.  Just like SWG.  So people who want to PVP will have to join one of three factions.

     

     

     

  • PyrateLVPyrateLV Las Vegas, NVPosts: 1,096Member Common
    Originally posted by koboldfodder

    Here is how TESO should have been developed.

     

    -Make all of Tamriel available for any character to explore.  Whether it is a level based game or a skill based game, this forces you to develop one big area of content instead of having to do three areas of content for every single game update.  In the current setting, if one factioned area has a specific type of content/reward you can bet they will have to copy and paste it to the other two realms.

    -Make some areas "buildable" where factions/guilds can create city states and such.

    -Dump factions at character creation.  All characters start off as neutral.  There are three factions to join (same ones) but you need to gain faction with them to join (like Rebel or Imp in SWG).

    -All PVP happens in the game world, no separate zones no instances.  Just like SWG.  So people who want to PVP will have to join one of three factions.

     

     

     

    "Its Too Hard!" - Matt Firor (of DAoC Fame)

    Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
    Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
    Playing: Skyrim
    Following: The Repopulation
    I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
    ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)

  • MaelwyddMaelwydd CrawleyPosts: 1,123Member
    Originally posted by PyrateLV

     

     

    "Its Too Hard!" - Matt Firor (of DAoC Fame)

    "I get paid because of my reputation it seems not because I can design something good again".

  • ste2000ste2000 londonPosts: 4,698Member Uncommon

    I've been saying this for ages.

    TES players are MMO players................I started playing MMO because of Morrowind.

    Yes they are the same playerbase, the only people who don't know that are  Zenimax  devs (Firor in particular).

    What can I say, we are trying to make this guy (Firor) wake up and make and see the light, before he ends up like the Bioware "geniuses" who though they knew all and now are doing gardening as full time job.

     

    I keep saying that Morrowind and Skyrim are already an excellent base for a new wave of MMORPG, where the RPG tag actually means something.

    It is sad, but I already gave up my hope, I know they gonna pull another SWTOR, they will compromise on everything trying to make everyone (which mean no one) happy.

    Personally I am looking forward EQ3..............even SOE understood that the EQ/WOW trend is a thing of the past

     

    ESO will probably be the only TES game I won't be buying or playing (I started with Arena in 1999).

    Good luck to Zenimax trying to please the "locusts" who burn MMO in 2 months, I won't be there to support them though.

     

  • MyTabbycatMyTabbycat SP, MOPosts: 312Member
    Originally posted by PyrateLV
    Originally posted by koboldfodder

    Here is how TESO should have been developed.

     

    -Make all of Tamriel available for any character to explore.  Whether it is a level based game or a skill based game, this forces you to develop one big area of content instead of having to do three areas of content for every single game update.  In the current setting, if one factioned area has a specific type of content/reward you can bet they will have to copy and paste it to the other two realms.

    -Make some areas "buildable" where factions/guilds can create city states and such.

    -Dump factions at character creation.  All characters start off as neutral.  There are three factions to join (same ones) but you need to gain faction with them to join (like Rebel or Imp in SWG).

    -All PVP happens in the game world, no separate zones no instances.  Just like SWG.  So people who want to PVP will have to join one of three factions.

     

     

     

    "Its Too Hard!" - Matt Firor (of DAoC Fame)

    Would you kindly link the source for that quote? I want to see the context it was used in.

  • PyrateLVPyrateLV Las Vegas, NVPosts: 1,096Member Common
    Originally posted by MyTabbycat
    Originally posted by PyrateLV
    Originally posted by koboldfodder

    Here is how TESO should have been developed.

     

    -Make all of Tamriel available for any character to explore.  Whether it is a level based game or a skill based game, this forces you to develop one big area of content instead of having to do three areas of content for every single game update.  In the current setting, if one factioned area has a specific type of content/reward you can bet they will have to copy and paste it to the other two realms.

    -Make some areas "buildable" where factions/guilds can create city states and such.

    -Dump factions at character creation.  All characters start off as neutral.  There are three factions to join (same ones) but you need to gain faction with them to join (like Rebel or Imp in SWG).

    -All PVP happens in the game world, no separate zones no instances.  Just like SWG.  So people who want to PVP will have to join one of three factions.

     

     

     

    "Its Too Hard!" - Matt Firor (of DAoC Fame)

    Would you kindly link the source for that quote? I want to see the context it was used in.

    It came from an early interview with Massively. Unfortunately it seems to have been deleted.

    He was speaking of why Housing will not be implemented in TESO. Here is the exact quote

    "Making player housing the way fans expect is too hard to implement in an MMO, so Zenimax has no plans to let you accrue realestate." - Matt Frior

     

     

    Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
    Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
    Playing: Skyrim
    Following: The Repopulation
    I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
    ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)

  • jtcgsjtcgs New Port Richey, ILPosts: 1,777Member
    Originally posted by ste2000

    I've been saying this for ages.

    TES players are MMO players................I started playing MMO because of Morrowind.

    Yes they are the same playerbase, the only people who don't know that are  Zenimax  devs (Firor in particular).

     That is an opinion with no basis in reality.

    Ultima, many of the single player RPGs sold millions of copies, Ultima Online had around 300,000 players at its most popular point. Proof that most the RPG players DONT play MMOs.

    Phantasy Star, single players sold millions of copies, online version never came close. Proof that most RPGers dont play MMOs.

    EverQuest came close to a million players, the single player console versions bombed. Proof that MMOers dont care about single player versions of their games.

    KOTOR games, millions sold. SWTOR, millions sold, million+ left it for the PoS it is. Proof the two are NOT compatable.

    As for TES...go to ANY of the modding forums and read about how they are laughing at the idea of a TES MMO and that they have no idea few TES players are MMOers. There is ZERO that points to most single player RPG gamers also playing MMORPGs.

    More proof MMOs and single players dont mix well? Name an MMO that sold well on a console system...the PC versions always sell far more because most console(single players) dont play MMO games. MOST is not ALL.

     

    “I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  • PyrateLVPyrateLV Las Vegas, NVPosts: 1,096Member Common
    Originally posted by jtcgs
    Originally posted by ste2000

    I've been saying this for ages.

    TES players are MMO players................I started playing MMO because of Morrowind.

    Yes they are the same playerbase, the only people who don't know that are  Zenimax  devs (Firor in particular).

     That is an opinion with no basis in reality.

    Ultima, many of the single player RPGs sold millions of copies, Ultima Online had around 300,000 players at its most popular point. Proof that most the RPG players DONT play MMOs.

    Phantasy Star, single players sold millions of copies, online version never came close. Proof that most RPGers dont play MMOs.

    EverQuest came close to a million players, the single player console versions bombed. Proof that MMOers dont care about single player versions of their games.

    KOTOR games, millions sold. SWTOR, millions sold, million+ left it for the PoS it is. Proof the two are NOT compatable.

    As for TES...go to ANY of the modding forums and read about how they are laughing at the idea of a TES MMO and that they have no idea few TES players are MMOers. There is ZERO that points to most single player RPG gamers also playing MMORPGs.

    More proof MMOs and single players dont mix well? Name an MMO that sold well on a console system...the PC versions always sell far more because most console(single players) dont play MMO games. MOST is not ALL.

     

     

    You cant use Ultima and UO as an example because that was over 15 years ago before MMOs were mainstream and popular.

     

    Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
    Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
    Playing: Skyrim
    Following: The Repopulation
    I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
    ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)

  • jtcgsjtcgs New Port Richey, ILPosts: 1,777Member
    Originally posted by PyrateLV
    Originally posted by jtcgs
    Originally posted by ste2000

    I've been saying this for ages.

    TES players are MMO players................I started playing MMO because of Morrowind.

    Yes they are the same playerbase, the only people who don't know that are  Zenimax  devs (Firor in particular).

     That is an opinion with no basis in reality.

    Ultima, many of the single player RPGs sold millions of copies, Ultima Online had around 300,000 players at its most popular point. Proof that most the RPG players DONT play MMOs.

    Phantasy Star, single players sold millions of copies, online version never came close. Proof that most RPGers dont play MMOs.

    EverQuest came close to a million players, the single player console versions bombed. Proof that MMOers dont care about single player versions of their games.

    KOTOR games, millions sold. SWTOR, millions sold, million+ left it for the PoS it is. Proof the two are NOT compatable.

    As for TES...go to ANY of the modding forums and read about how they are laughing at the idea of a TES MMO and that they have no idea few TES players are MMOers. There is ZERO that points to most single player RPG gamers also playing MMORPGs.

    More proof MMOs and single players dont mix well? Name an MMO that sold well on a console system...the PC versions always sell far more because most console(single players) dont play MMO games. MOST is not ALL.

     

     

    You cant use Ultima and UO as an example because that was over 15 years ago before MMOs were mainstream and popular.

     

     I can and did. And it would seem by your reply, I do so in a manner to prove its true, by using it FIRST and followed it with examples showing how it did NOT CHANGE WITH TIME...because you chose not to refute the modern examples but instead focused on just the first.

    There is NO example that can be given that points to most single player RPGers are also MMORPGers...not one.

    “I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member

    The entire 'Elder Scroll players are not MMO players' is massively weak and demonstrates either a huge amount of dishonesty or inexperience.

    It is possible for those with this opinion to win a debate on this subject using very clever tactics but it doesnt change the fundemental reality that its basically massively silly arguement

    Correlation does not imply causation

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