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Originally posted by FromHell OP I have one message for you: PATHETIC entitlement, your posts are full of baseless chaotic arguments, but thanks for the good laugh. Best thread of the day. please do us all a favor and spend some 1000s for a "game lawyer" to save you 199 bucks... lol, really you get all further DLC for free plus points stipend, they'll even add an auto-deduct option to get the DLCs with your free points, so you won't even notice a difference. I think you just love trolling. PS: Anyone believing this guy has money for a lawyer, when complaining about the price of a dinner??? ROFL. Poor blackmailing attempt that is all
He alone may not have the money for a lawyer, but perhaps he is hoping that a lot of people will be able to group together and file a class action lawsuit.
However Lifetime subs are just risky, and a gamble. A Lifetime sub allows full access to the game for the lifetime of the game, that could even be one day.
So, there will not be many, if any at all, as most people will understand the risks.
Although they did say they were not going to make it F2P, and I even had a brief desire to buy the LT sub, a few months ago, but never did. I am glad I did not now either, as although you still get rewards and and stuff, they really do not look worth it.
I am starting to get fed up of companies saying one thing and then doing something else. Both LA and SOE said that SWG and SWTOR would co-exist - that never happened. EA said they were not going to the F2P route either, but offer some alternative payment option, that never happened either.
So, if legal action can be taken over companies saying one thing, and then changing their minds, which has serious negative impact on consumers decisions (Funcom saying they were not going F2P made me think getting a LT sub could be worth it), then they should go for it, so then when people say things publicy in the future they have to stick with what they say or suffer the consequences. ie Smedley said that EQ Next will be the biggest MMO sandbox, if that does not happen and it ends up being a typiclal themepark, he gets sued or whatever. However, going after them for LT subs is not going to work.
In the end though all these changing of minds does more harm to themselves and other companies, in the long run, as in the end you can not trust them, and so avoid them like the plague, or only buy LT subs if you can handle game shutting down or going F2P. I guess this is what is happening more, and so people just wait instead of buying into it, which then forces them to go F2P, as people do not trust companies any more. If people did not think it would go F2P, they probably would have bougtht the game, and subbed, and less likely to have gone F2P. If another MMO releases with a $15 montly fee after this, even more people will less likely give it a go from the start, and just wait for it to go F2P, except maybe Blizzards new MMO
Star Trek Online - Best Free MMORPG of 2012
Originally posted by zymurgeist Originally posted by zephermarkus EULA AND TOS never hold up in court and the customer always wins.
Nonsense. If they never held up in court they wouldn't even exist. No one would be able to enforce any contract and no software product would be marketable. Every gaming company would be bankrupted by constant litigation. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. A monkey with a briefcase could win this case for Funcom.
They exist so that customers are made to believe that "what the company says in EULAs is binding" upon them.
Except it isn't. Just because a company says something is legal in their EULA, does not make it so.
These "click if you accept" EULAs and "You accept terms if product is opened" TOS have been thrown out of court many, many times.
The only reason people don't file more lawsuits, is that most people are not going to sue over a $60 video/comp game.
That said, on the occasions people have been legitimately suing for various reasons, they have been winning most of the time, in regards to EULA related issues.
Do a search on "Autodesk, Autocad, reselling, lawsuit" if you want to read up on a good one. The case should pop up.
Originally posted by xeniar You knew very well before lifetiming that in these times MMO's have a tendency of failing, meaning they might close down entirly or have to change how they do things. Yes the small letters in the terms of service wil give all rights to do so to the company. You knew it could happen yet you still lifetimed. don't come crying now.
I agree, everyone and his dog said taking out a lifetime sub thesedays is stupid. Pity the fools!
Originally posted by Thenextbigthing Originally posted by xeniar You knew very well before lifetiming that in these times MMO's have a tendency of failing, meaning they might close down entirly or have to change how they do things. Yes the small letters in the terms of service wil give all rights to do so to the company. You knew it could happen yet you still lifetimed. don't come crying now.
I agree, people need to really think before spending money they cannot afford to lose.
However, ther is nothing wrong with supporting a company, even though they might have done some thing that could be done better.
What was the lifetime price on this game? 299.99? So, at best what would you hope to gain financially.. The game is 15.00 a month a t 7 months that is 105, box price is what 50.00-69.99+.. So let's say you ask for 144.99 refund, and let's say they grant it, but because of that, you now forfeit your lifetime benefits that they are offering (because you are revoked lifetime status for the refund)... You can continue to play for free but you now get no free content, no monthly rewards, nor free cash shop points...
Is that 144.99 refund worth more to you now? If so, by all means go for it, but you have no right to demand both, and in my opinion I don't think you even have a right to demand any form of refund, or legal ramifications to the company.
And if you are going to claim that F2P causes you mental/emotional duress and are seeking damages for that, you need to get some serious help.....
It's a game, you are going to get your money's worth PERIOD!
The other option was they could have simply shut down like APB after a month.
The OP seems to think the sub has no value... ironically after pointing out the value it does have.
Sure, a non-subber can buy issues at $5 or $10/month, but they don't get the bonus item or the xp item nor the $10 credit in points. It does have value regarless of whether you choose to value it or not.
Anyway, talk of a lawsuit is stupid when they've done nothing wrong.
But that isn't really your issue is it? You want more value than you perceive for subscribers/grandmasters. That's a whole different conversation.
The Arcade Corner
The Daily Exposition
You can take all the legal actions that you want, but you're still getting what you were promised for your lifetime subscription. Unlimited access to the videogame. Now others get it for free? Well, yeah. But that's none of your concern. Your contract is being fully fulfilled, and now you're getting free Funcom points on top.
Otherwise everyone could ask for refund on everything we buy that at some point ages and loses value.
My opinion is my own. I respect all other opinions and views equally, but keep in mind that my opinion will always be the best for me. That's why it's my opinion.
I just saved a bunch on auto-insurance!
Originally posted by DestacAll i am going to say is READ THE EULA. They have the right to change anything about the game and you agree to this the first time you start the game. So it will get no were Funcom has done nothing wrong so just close the post because it is a waste of space.
Go read the start of the thread.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
Originally posted by Nitth Originally posted by Destac All i am going to say is READ THE EULA. They have the right to change anything about the game and you agree to this the first time you start the game. So it will get no were Funcom has done nothing wrong so just close the post because it is a waste of space.
Start or end of the thread doesn't change the fact that this whole topic is ridiculous. All emoty threats and nothing more. OP and others are most welcome to move to the court, i would like to see how the case will stand before judge starts laughing his ass off.
Originally posted by Caldicot Originally posted by Kingmob23 When the game came out, I considered the lifetime subscription but then I thought it would probably go ftp in six months so I held off. With them going b2p, I got to say I am thrilled to have already purchased this game and am looking forward to start playing it again. I'm not quite sure, based on how the market has been changing the last couple of years, what these lifetime subers thought was going to happen? It seemed obvious since beta that the outcome would tread along these lines.
Hindsight is pretty awesome stuff.
Actually, my intial analysis was based off of what has been trending in the mmorpg market for the past three years. I didn't have to rely on hindsight; common sense foresaw this outcome.
Wether or not the Eula holds up in court(and i don't thínk it would, they are usually sloppily written and don't respect european laws that well) is completely besides the point. Just because the EULA is invalid doesn't mean you get your money back, normal laws regarding trades still apply and what TSW is doing here isn't illegal.
A court would in all likelyhood completely disregard the EULA if you tried suing for a refund, since it wouldn't matter(refunds are governed by laws you can't forfeit in europe). EULAs only matter for refunds when they give you more rights than given by law and you are suing for those extraneous rights, but since they can't take away your basic rights they don't matter in this case.
So what would a judge look at?
1. Timeframe since purchase, you can't place certain claims if you have been using the product for a long time.
2. Did the product match the advertisement?
3. Since we are talking about a license, wether the agreed upon service still gets supplied.
You can disregard 1. and 2., they mainly apply for mismatching products. Like you order a Ferrari and get a Ford instead, or buying a new product and get a used one, that kind of thing. 3. Doesn't apply because your still getting the agreed service at the agreed price, but the fact that you could unsubscribe and get a similar service won't matter.
The way this would look in court would be that TSW is doing exactly what they agreed upon when you registered. They are fullfilling their contract with you. They didn't raise your subfee, they didn't take functions/content away from you. There is simply no basis for a lawsuit.
For a lawsuit to be realistic you need to have been wronged somehow, preferably in a financial way with fraudulent intent. Double charges on CC or charges for a banned account, taking away or ceasing to deliver something you paid for without refund, causing damage to your computer/privacy by negligence(virus, trojan etc). All of these can be a basis for a lawsuit. But giving someone else something for free that you had to pay for ... its simply not against the law.
Courts enforce the laws, not your sense of propriety. They didn't take anything away from you, instead they gave you more(stipend, free item per month etc). Would be tough to argue that you got wronged when nothing is missing and you actually get more than before.
Originally posted by Skuz [mod edit]
So in the space of a few sentences you call people morons and mentally challenged. Then 'pontificate' about an issue that is a non-issue adding to the issue. Well that makes a lot of sense.
Good example of one sided moderation, call people what you like as long as your making a point that falls in with the general sentiment of the site. If I had posted anything along these sorts of lines I would of been facing yet another ban.
I don't regret buying lifetime lord of the rings online just because it went free to play premium, I was supporting a game and a business that I care for. Of course, it truly was a waste of money because it is now free, but it also isn't because I still get permanent full access VIP and free turbine points a month...
Now in terms of being buy to play, it does suck for lifetime subscribers, however, the only thing you can really do is give them exclusive lifetime only awards and free cash shop points monthly, because everything is unlocked and nothing is restricted... Wouldn't it be fair if they just gave you the subscription's value in cash shop points though? Of course, depending on sales you'd have to increase the points and probably give people something rediculous to make up for it, like 3,000 points a month or something...
Of course, they should give reimbursement option but you can't seriously blame a company for wanting to keep that money to stay afloat, handing it all back would cripple further growth building of the game...
Is the game truly less enjoyable as buy to play than it was with a subscription? You wanted to support it and bought lifetime, does that mean you want them to fail and cancel it now? They still need money to continue to grow and update, if you take yours back that's reducing game updates for everyone...
So the mad lifetime people would rather the game go under and nobody play it ? because I am sure that is what would have happened if something didnt change.
Originally posted by SQTO So the mad lifetime people would rather the game go under and nobody play it ? because I am sure that is what would have happened if something didnt change.
Yep, but those mad lifetime people are a vocal minority. A very small minority. I have a number of lifetimer friends who are more than happy with how it's been handled. I have a few friends who've bought the GMP this week because it is a good deal - actually better than what they promised us. But then again, those are people who will want at least small doses of fluff. If you're literally not ever interested in fluff ever, I can see why you'd think you got shafted. But then, all those folks had to do was look at the launches of Funcom's last two MMO titles to see if it was likely to be something they'd want. Seriously just smdh.
see what happend to kyle for not reading the contract before signing !!!!!!
ALWAYS READ THE FINE PRINT
As a lifetime subscriber, I do feel im getting my money worth still. I am getting more bonuspoints and can get every piece of content for free plus a little bit more. I actually think I am getting more now than I did before....
Even more so, I prefer to play in a game full of other people, and the change of subscription model made the game full of people!
Im happy with the change!
Originally posted by fallenlords I find it interesting that some people almost perceive Funcom as being blameless, like it's 'Buyer Beware'. It's the customers fault for believing in what they were being sold. No, its the morality of a company that would sell lifetime subscriptions in this current climate that should be brought into question. But customers want livetime offers. Every game i know that doesn't offers them has threads on forums constantly asking for them. Why is Fucom at a fault if they fill a demand thats already there? Funcom built free to play functionality into the game from the start they admitted that, they always had an eye on the business model for the game changing. So they must of always planned to screw over those that bought lifetime subscriptions. I asked Joel specifically about the game going free to play, and he said 'not anytime soon' ... well it was quite soon after he said that the business model changed for the game. Joel blamed the suits for making a business decision, almost exonerating himself and the developers from the changes. But the functionality was there in the game for multiple business models and has been since day one... that was planned. They are still selling LTAs, LTAs are still being bought. How did they screw up past LTA customers? I wouldn't mind having a LTA with the current terms ... As a business they knew if TSW tanked they were in trouble. The Funcom financial reports put them in a negative cash flow situation until the TSW release. The ex-CEO showed his faith in the company on the eve of the TSW launch, still giving Funcom time to change things yet they carried on as if nothing was wrong. Selling their lifetime subs for a game they knew was already in trouble from the pre-order numbers. They could have gone buy to play at launch, they decided not to because they wanted to hang on to the money they had already made from mis-selling Lifetime subs and other packages. Making money is the job of a company, you talk as if they have closed down the game already ... The game is still running a LTAs still have the same value in that they are a one time payment equivalent to a monthly 15$ sub. The only way LTAs will be worse off than subbers will be if they close the game down soonish. Timing of this buy to play model is also very interesting as rumors of a takeover have already been floated. Buy to play will probably give them a nice surge in revenue to make the books look good and value the company higher. So I would question have they gone buy to play for the good of the game, as all the fans think, or for the good of the executives trying to sell or broker a takeover of the company? Can't it be both? Also "making the books look good" by increasing sales and revenue ... that sure is a evil trick, bit transparent though as you can clearly see the increased revenue. I would look at this company as a stone cold business. They know exactly what they are doing and when they are doing it. They have plans for all sorts of eventualities. But one thing is for sure the customer will always be the last one to find out and will always be the one out of pocket. So essentially they are a company that knows their buisness? That description you gave could just aswell describe the Coca-Cola company, Intel, Apple or Exxon mobile. Its not exactly rocket science to guess that a private company is in it for the money.
The question you should ask yourself is wether the game is fun to you, and wether your prepared to pay for that fun. If the latter is affirmitive Funcom has provided several different way to approach it, each clearly lining out its costs, what you get and for how long.
I fail to see how what they are doing is shady or bad for customers. Looks like buisness as usual for me, and alot less shady than most at that(used car dealers, tabacco comapnies, rifle association etc).