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Can we please give the MMO community a CLASS ON DEBUNKING HYPE?

MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,258Member Uncommon

Can the mmo community please get a free training class on debunking hype please?

Because the mmo community really needs it.

just looking at threads like this regarding EQNext seem to publicly show just how gullible MMO consumers are.

 

"Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me" Well since you continue to be fooled, that must make you a big fool.

Lots of these same people getting hyped up in that thread on EQNext, seem to be many of the same faces and consumers of the Warhammer Hype Era, or the AoC hype era, or the SWTOR hype era, or the Darkfall Hype era, or the Guild Wars 2 hype era.

And I ask myself this every time,,, "how in the world, do these MMO developers manage to fool the same people over and over again? Makes no sense. Its as if the consumers dont learn from past mistakes."

[mod edit]

 

Reminds me of Warhammer and SWTOR and AoC and Darkfall, all over again.

 

Putting that aside for the moment, lets take a look at some ways Developers try to hype players up, and counter critic's anti-hype.

One of my favorites is the Guild Wars 2 Manifesto. Very cleverly done hype piece. Fooled many.

Here is a Youtube video of it.

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Here he say if you love MMOs you would want to check out GW2, and if you hate MMO you would also want to check out GW2. Did anybody ever question this contradiction? Doesnt make much sense, and seem to be clever marketing talk. Why would non MMO gamers be interested in a MMO, that also appeals to MMO gamers?

Fully Branching Personalized story. Just fancy marketing way of saying a traditional quest. Really how could you not see this, after what happen with the SWTOR hype?

Now they go on to talk about the art, and how its visually stunning and something you will say " wow I never seen something like this before, or never played gameplay like this before"
clever marketing talk. Whenever you see comments like that from developer, automatically you should question it as hype. Most features in MMO can be traced in some form to older games. very little is actually original. innovative, but rarely original.

He say most games you go out and have fun occasionally. While the rest of the game is a BORING Grind to get to the fun stuff. again antihype flag should go up here. First you need to understand this term "GRIND". Marketers are not using the objective meaning of it, which is repeating a task.
They are using the subjective meaning of it, which uses that Adjective "BORING" in the meaning. So what developer will admit that their game has boring elements in it? Using the subjective meaning of Grind, any developer could then say their MMO if Grind-Free, since to them, there arent any boring parts of their game. See how clever that is? 

I swung a sword, I swung a sword, hey I swung a sword again... interesting. Thats basically the same style of gameplay in the game. hype talk again. in a game with combat as a main foundation, you will be doing this often. so you should have seen past this hype talk.

The lady say that MMOs lost the the ability to make players feel like a hero. Then she goes into this rant about how how everybody is doing the same thing around you, and the boss you just killed respawns 10 mins later and doesnt care that the player is there. LOL I got a big laugh out of that. And most of you who played the game, or any MMO in general know why. This is clever marking hype talk. We should know by now, that in a MMO with large population, and finite world, that Mobs will have to respawn , including bosses. No matter what a developer say, or does to hide that. it respawns, so new players can also experience that content. Until developer tech improves to the level that developers to dish out brand new content every min for players to fight, then expect respawning. very traditional, and should been a red flag. And the talk about playing with others around you doing the same task... like really.... isnt that what the whole point of group content is for, as well is public events?

Hey everybody, we do not want to build the same MMO that everybody else is building!!! Yeah and I am sure they all say that...

she says "In GW2 its your world, its your story, you effect things around you in a very permanent way.". Sorry to burst your bubble of hype, but same reason behind the spawning, we previously talked about, is the same reason nothing is permanent. Because if it were, then the first few players that trigger these things, would be the only players to ever experience it. Meaning, that this content would be only a one time feature. Which know MMO developer in today's age of MMO with a sane mind would do. I mean, the lady just straight up lied in your face here, and most people didnt catch this early on.

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The rest of that you should be able to debunk on your own.

 

another things I want to bring up is this notion that "Since a MMO is in Beta, than it really going to change much from there."

Well Rarely, does that happen. Honestly, Betas are just a clever marketing demo, to get your money early on in most cases. Many people will blindly defend these. But over the past few years, how many MMO have vastly improved their gameplay issues within the beta, before the game released?

 

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Also another thing to look out for is Developers posting on forum as regular posters. This is something most people cant prove is going on, but should be expected at any signs of public hyping on community forums like this.

Because hiding in the shadows gives them an added advantage when they make their attack on gullible MMO consumers.

They can counter the critcs, by simply calling them Trolls, without much effort than that, and you would never know they were secretly a Developer. MMORPG.com claims they are against this behavior from developers, but lets be real here. How can they stop a developer from not saying who they really are?

Check out this developer that posts here on this very forum.

Remember Derek Smart, the lead developer of Line of Defense and Alganon?

Well he happens to post here using his avatar and name. But whats to stop a developer from posting here without using their picture and name? come on, think about it.. EA already been busted for doing this sort of thing.

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Comments

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member

    Getting excited for something is a good thing.

    Even if you get let down in the end.

    It's fun to hope.

    Much more healthy, IMO, to get hyped for a new game on the hope it's good than to just assume everything sucks and never be happy.

    Does hype go too far? I don't think positive energy and positive feelings can ever really go too far.

    But the negativity can go too far, and it does very, very easily and far, far too often on these boards.

    Let people dream.

    Let people hope.

    Let people be let down and disappointed.

    It is not your job nor the job of anyone else to knock someone down who is just reaching for something more.

    Even if they're just chasing a dream...

  • ThorbrandThorbrand West Palm Beach, FLPosts: 1,198Member
    People just need to judge the game as a whole not only what the want to see and they need to judge it under what defines a MMO and a RPG before they even start to acknowledge it as a MMO. To many non-MMO games today called MMOs.
  • Salio69Salio69 under a rock, FLPosts: 428Member
    the "class" name is Hater. you're called a Hater if you dont like it too.
  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member

    You can't save people from disappointment.

    You can't try and enlighten them.

    It's a choice and a very personal one.

    There are very, very, very few people on these boards and on the entirity of the internet that are capable of 100% objective review.

    Give your opinions, tell people constructively why you feel the way you do, and move on.

    Some will listen, some will disagree.

    Most won't care and will only be convinved by trying themselves.

    Hype is never a bad thing unless it is lies.

    Big difference between positive hype and what I'd consider to be negative hype - somewhat of a contridiction but any hype generated based off of a fallacy.

  • Bob_BlawblawBob_Blawblaw Montreal, QCPosts: 1,278Member
    Agree with the OP, but you won't get much traction on this site. MMORPG.com is the Sears catalog of the MMO realm.
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,680Member Uncommon

    You ask why would non-MMO gamers like GW2. Because it's not your traditional MMO. It has features that appeal to other gamers as well. A great example of an MMO for non-MMO gamers is Wizardry Online. JRPGers and old school CRPGers will find it a lot more fun than the average bittervet. GW2 took it one step further and catered to both MMOers and other gamers, too.

    The story is personalized based on character creation choices and decisions made while playing.

    GRIND you have backwards. It has always had a negative connotation to it. It's the EQ flagellates and other masochists that have used it in any sense but that.

    As far as the hero thing goes, in a lot of ways the game does work toward making you feel that way. In some ways it over does it. For example, personally, I liked being called "Slayer" and didn't care for any of the promotion titles beyond that.

    And they didn't build the same MMO that everyone is building. While it's still a fantasy hack-n-slash, it takes a different approach to how people play together and the content they engage in.

     

    Why does it bother you so much that GW2 is doing well?

     

    I agree that MMO gamers buy into hype a lot, but there are countless other examples that would have made far more sense to use than GW2. Xsyon and Citadel of Sorcery are ones that quickly come to mind.

     

     

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,854Member Uncommon
    Hype doesn't change how the game really is. Nice write up though, looks really well thought out.
  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INPosts: 3,763Member Uncommon
          New games are exciting, especially if they are supposedly made from the same cloth as games we used to love......BUT the difference between a wise consumer and a foolish one is that the wise one waits till he can get a free trial or the game is free while the foolish one dives in with his wallet without even knowing what he is paying for......Also on this site games in the future are always "better" than games we have now......
  • FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,565Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Bob_Blawblaw
    Agree with the OP, but you won't get much traction on this site. MMORPG.com is the Sears catalog of the MMO realm.

    So its the prepubescent, pre internet, masturbatory goldmine of the MMO realm? Sounds like heaven.

  • ZyzraZyzra Madison, WIPosts: 354Member
    Why isn't this topic in the Darkfall Unholy Wars section?
  • greenreengreenreen Punchoo, AKPosts: 2,101Member Uncommon

    That second post is so sweet. It's like listening to Kermit http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSFLZ-MzIhM. Sniff. Something was in my eye, ok.

    It's true though, there are lots of us looking around for that game that follows through on the claims it makes. We do want different things than (sorry to do it ) WOW 2.0. I know it's cliche but it's still true.

    I fell for the hype they offered, it only cost me the entry price unlike others who went nutty in the cash shop. I always had a little bug in my ear saying don't spend, don't spend until you know they aren't going to change like LOTRO did.

    I learned a lesson, companies that call themselves gamers can lie too. I already got one lie from LOTRO saying they wouldn't go F2P then they did it anyway. They never claimed to be gamers though. That whole schtick of we are gamers too brought me in.

    It is what it is. Hindsight can't be used until it's over. I'd just like to add that part that gamers can lie too for people that get too excited seeing kickstarters which can also overhype what will be delivered. 

  • FearumFearum Cinnaminson, NJPosts: 1,166Member Uncommon

    So basically your angry because some people like games that you don't and your mad when they get excited.

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member
    Originally posted by Zyzra
    Why isn't this topic in the Darkfall Unholy Wars section?

    Probably because the OP actually likes that game.

    Or maybe this should be in the EvE forums because of all their high-action super-high energy trailers that reflect jack wagon on the game itself?

    But no, the OP singles out the game he/she doesn't like as the "proof" of why hype is so terrible.

    And insults people while doing so and not only necro's an old post (against TOS) but calls out (flames) a poster specifically (also against TOS).

    Bye!

    Interestingly enough the rest of the world seems to think GW2 lived up to the hype as it's won GoTY from multiple highly respected and well-traveled gaming sites.

     

  • LatronusLatronus Lexington Park, MDPosts: 692Member

    WoW, Wall of text.  I stopped reading so I may be off, but I don't think the industry is hyping the games up, I think the gamers are fooling themselves into thinking a game isn't what it is being marketed as.  Now this may not be true for every game, but I think it is exactly what happened to SWTOR.

    People wanted it to be SWG2 and got mad when it wasn't.  Well, it was never marketed as being SWG2, or a sandbox, or free flight space, but still people read/heard what EA/Bioware put out and somehow ignored what was said and convinced themselves that the game was something it never was to be.

    Gamers need some training alright, but its not on debunking hype, it's reading comprehension... oh wait, that's supposed to be taught in Middle/High School.  I would guess that those that jump from one flavor of the month to the next probably didn't do so well in those classes.  Just a guess.

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  • BaleoutBaleout Grande Prairie, ABPosts: 141Member

    Wow so you dont like a game that i like and you want me to take your word on it.

     

    I will spend my $ on what i want not on something you might believe is good .

     

    But i did learn one thing i will no longer read anything you bother to post.

     

    Have a great day.

  • neobahamut20neobahamut20 ste-julie, QCPosts: 336Member

    You misunderstand hype vs marketing... like corps misunderstand grind... just like mmorpg.com misunderstands trolling.

    Marketing is acting as a shill to try to gaud people into buying your product. What you really should teach the MMO community is "how to spot publicity for an MMO". A lot of people bought into the manifesto, I was lauging and telling them to keep dreaming and being called a troll for that. Of all the actual trolls on the WWW I am behind, if someone could call me out on one of those for a change, I'd like it.

     

    Hype is interest in the game. It is an approximate reaction of anticipation to the publicity, to marketing or a product. Apple is king in generating it, just look at the masses of idiots waiting outside to get their hands on very limited supplies of their iPhones (and paying the asking price just to tell their friends they have one, then marketing the product, for free, just so they can justify to themselves their waste of money). The use of knowing hype for corporations, is that through that, you know how many unpaid publicities you will generate. Those who publicize for free we refer to as "fanbois". The fact is, if you can teach someone that using your product is going to make them better people, make them have the most advanced pile of crap, etc, they will work for you, for free. Hype just  loosely measures that. Nothing more.

     

    Also, you should speak about the future, not the past. GW2 is already out and those who got caught by the marketting as well as those who figured they might as well try it out (like myself) already own the game. To be honest its not a bad game, its just not the product they advertised.

     

    TLDR: Shitpost; marketing is not hype. Hype is a measure of how many idiots will publicize a product for free. GW2 is old news. Although a good game, we should be looking forward if we want something that is truly "new".

    Boycotting EA. Why? They suck, even moreso since 2008.

  • General-ZodGeneral-Zod Zod, CAPosts: 743Member Uncommon

    Wall-O-Text but it was very readable ...

    I was fooled by the Warhammer hype long ago with good excuse, following Mythic since Nexus: Spell Binder I thought they could do no wrong and I thought with the E.A intergration (pause) I thought it would be the best game ever (pukes) ... I forgave myself because im sure they were probably thinking the same thing too but after that I said to myself "Never Again!"...

    Now I check for things that will keep me interested like in-depth crafting, PvP and player impact on the game world... I found if a game has 1.poor crafting system  2.Poor PvP system 3. Little to no impact on the game world then that game will not hold my attention ...  no matter how hard you hype it

    but thats just me

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  • SilacoidSilacoid Chicago, ILPosts: 237Member
    GW2 seems to have delivered considering it is the highest rated MMO on this site by far.
  • aspekxaspekx Brandon, FLPosts: 2,167Member

    you know, being unable to read the social clues that would lead the normal person to recognize hype/deception is a primary symptom of Asperger's.

    jus'sayin...

     

     

    ============

    oops! i did it again...

    "There are at least two kinds of games.
    One could be called finite, the other infinite.
    A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
    an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
    Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse

  • strangiato2112strangiato2112 Richmond, VAPosts: 1,538Member Common
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    Can the mmo community please get a free training class on debunking hype please?

    Because the mmo community really needs it.

     

    Coming from someone who was heavily hyping Rift's conquest...glass houses/stones and black pots and kettles...

     

     

  • aspekxaspekx Brandon, FLPosts: 2,167Member
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Or maybe this should be in the EvE forums because of all their high-action super-high energy trailers that reflect jack wagon on the game itself?

    thank you! glad someone else noticed this.

    "There are at least two kinds of games.
    One could be called finite, the other infinite.
    A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
    an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
    Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse

  • neobahamut20neobahamut20 ste-julie, QCPosts: 336Member
    Originally posted by chelan

    you know, being unable to read the social clues that would lead the normal person to recognize hype/deception is a primary symptom of Asperger's.

    jus'sayin...

     

     

    ============

    oops! i did it again...

    What? This form of writing is a secondary symptom of cretinism. Are your thyroïd levels abnormally low?

    Boycotting EA. Why? They suck, even moreso since 2008.

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Getting excited for something is a good thing.

    Even if you get let down in the end.

    It's fun to hope.

    Much more healthy, IMO, to get hyped for a new game on the hope it's good than to just assume everything sucks and never be happy.

    Does hype go too far? I don't think positive energy and positive feelings can ever really go too far.

    But the negativity can go too far, and it does very, very easily and far, far too often on these boards.

    Let people dream.

    Let people hope.

    Let people be let down and disappointed.

    It is not your job nor the job of anyone else to knock someone down who is just reaching for something more.

    Even if they're just chasing a dream...

    Well said! 

     

    One problem I have is when the FANBOI'S state such obvious bull and state it as fact. We can see it happening in the DF2 threads. They are so excited, they are not logically or looking at it with a objective eye. When you call them on it, they get mad.

     

    The other I have is when Haters, who have never played the game OR have played so much they get burned out and then hate, start spouting nonsense. When you call them on it, you are automatically labelled a 'FANBOI'.

     

    I realize I did that and have tried to correct my ways (maybe not succeeding but trying).

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • XthosXthos Columbus, OHPosts: 2,628Member

    Well, I stopped reading, when I got to the part about how developers are hyping things, since the OP, is the same person that started a thread insisting that TOR was not hyped by Blizzard, and any hype people had was their own fault, not aided by Blizzard...

     

    I did not get TOR hyped, and thought it would suck, but the OP seems to jump from side to side on these topics, it makes it hard to debate, or discuss something that the target discussion seems to move.

     

     

    The talk about EQNext that I have seen, is SPECULATION/HOPE, not HYPE...I mean how can you really have hype when no solid information is released.  You can hope they do something, but it really isn't the same.

     

     

     

  • aspekxaspekx Brandon, FLPosts: 2,167Member
    Originally posted by neobahamut20
    Originally posted by chelan

    you know, being unable to read the social clues that would lead the normal person to recognize hype/deception is a primary symptom of Asperger's.

    jus'sayin...

     

     

    ============

    oops! i did it again...

    What? This form of writing is a secondary symptom of cretinism. Are your thyroïd levels abnormally low?

    one can hope.

    it was meant as sarcasm and it comes from someone with asperger's.

    "There are at least two kinds of games.
    One could be called finite, the other infinite.
    A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
    an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
    Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse

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