I would agree with that. The way solo is done now is typically grindy, easy or both.
However group content still has the best loot, coin and xp even in todays' games.
As it should be.
I agree with you but that flies in the face of this entire thread. Those that support this thread want to be able to get exactly what you and I would get for grouping. Otherwise they are being treated unfairly and you know that in America at least, everyone deserves to get their fair share even if they don't have to work to get it.
I dont agree with the OP on most things. This topic was goin to be no different. Making solo content just as hard as group content? please. If the solo content is to hard then you just get someone to help you.... OOOPS That would be grouping.
These are the same people that cant be bothered with others and still want end game gear even though they dont raid or do high end grouping to get said gear/items. They feel as if they are entiteled to it.
And it doesnt stop at adventuring. Even the solo task of crafting is a chore for most. Should have heard all the complaining and crying VG.
If you want a 100% solo game, Play the 1000s of console games thats available.
Want to play a 100% solo game with other people? Call some friends over to watch you play.
Want to play a 100% solo game With other people and trade? Call some friends over to watch you play and tell them to bring something with them to trade with you.
The idea of a full on MMORPG that is 100% solo centric is laughable at best. Even the crap MMos that are being pumped out now, as easy as they are, still require the best stuff to come from harder content. ( Group content )
I'm just here to see how the flaming is going. Total and pure curiousity. Hell has nothing on this thread. Please continue. I think it's starting to cool a little. Flame on !
The idea of a full on MMORPG that is 100% solo centric is laughable at best. Even the crap MMos that are being pumped out now, as easy as they are, still require the best stuff to come from harder content. ( Group content )
Thou dost laugh at UO?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The idea of a full on MMORPG that is 100% solo centric is laughable at best. Even the crap MMos that are being pumped out now, as easy as they are, still require the best stuff to come from harder content. ( Group content )
Thou dost laugh at UO?
I never played UO. Is the game 100% soloable? No group content what so ever? Everything thats ingame can be attained completely through 100% solo gameplay? Any pvp and or rewards from pvp
Originally posted by LadyEuphei This thread should be closed on a mmo forum. This is rediculous. No mmo should be soloable, it is just AGH! I need to breathe...seriously this idea is rediculous and it makes no sense. If you want to solo and be by yourself go play a multiplayer card game in a corner with your imaginary friends....
This is a good example how narrow minded, burned out and jaded we have become as a community.
This person has never ever considered that the "soloability" could take , say, 10 times as long as the grouping, actually ENCOURAGING the grouping instead of FORCING it as the new mmos do and why everyone behaves like Dfense inside a pug raid.
Because in this twisted twilight zone we operate these days, the prolonged time required would be UNFAIR to all the soloers for some reason not even the soloers understand.
Flame on!
Your form of "encouragement" is what people would refer to as "forcing".
in response to the games you chosen as completely soloable or made for the single player I would disagree with you on one, lineage/2 and the oter runescape i haven't played so i will believe that is true. Both of these games however are over 10 years old. Let me rephase the quesion , name one recent major mmo that was made for the single player or that can be played completely soloable.
So for which goal would the player need a group in L2 ?
Its 8 years old, btw.
If recent mmos would do it we would not have this thread, would we?
Why do you think a soloable mmo MUST have an ending?
Because if you can solo everything then it's naturally going to be easy to complete. Even the hardest single player game is just a case of timing and knowing when to hit the buttons, it's not rocket science. More players gives more room for error and more people to split the rewards between, hence there is a reason to repeat content. In a solo only game, once you've done something then that content is complete and you'll be wanting something else. It's not possible to give unlimited content in that fashion.
Where do you see a difference between raid grind hamster wheel and solo grind hamster wheel? Especially if either is optional.
So you'd want to repeat the same content on your own over and over? It would have to be a really good game for me to want to repeat something indefinitely.
Why do you think "saving time and effort" is NO reason to group?
Why are you mentioning grouping when we're talking about a soloable game?
Do you really think "soloable" means "as fast and utterly easy as with a group"?
It would have to be, especially if the game has different classes, as the content would have to be soloable by each one of those classes, otherwise the game fails as a solo experience. Naturally some of those classes are going to have an easier time than others, such as the Wizard who will have lots of damage but take few hits.
Do you really think 90% of the lfr crowd would even notice if the players would be replaced by NPCs ?
Yes. I'm not sure about the current WoW crowd but from the raids I've done, which have been EverQuest and Lord of the Rings Online (before they become little more than large group content), the raid was just something fun for the guild to do as a whole, while gaining extra equipment. Multiplayer games are about the people you're sharing the game with - perhaps that's the part you're missing out on and why you think a single player version would better suit you.
It's been mentioned several times in the thread, but Asheron's Call was entirely soloable.
It was a skill based game so anyone could take the Healing skill or the Life Magic skill. Even random drop items would sometimes have a spell imbued in them that the item would cast, such as a heal spell or a stamina to health spell or something of the sort. So even if you didn't have the skills, you could still help yourself in other ways. Life Magic had healing spells, as well as spells which let you juggle your health/stamina/mana back and forth and convert them into each other for 50-100%+ returns on the conversions. It allowed you to run into a massive group of enemies, pull them all, and take them out one by one or in groups if you were a mage. You'd juggle your stats, or even drain health/stam/mana from the enemies and use it yourself.
It was an excellent system that allowed for you to be entirely self sustainable. Relying on others for heals wasn't really the playstyle of the game, although grouping took place often. Groups were great because after level 50 you could group with anyone 50+ and it would split XP evenly in the group. Less people meant more XP split. But the great thing was, even with a large group, you could still have 50% or higher XP split meaning you benefited hugely from a group of people slaughtering dozens of enemies at once.
This discussion has created some interesting questions. In a recent interview with Gamebreaker, Greg Street the lead system designer for World Of Warcraft admitted that 25 man raiding suffers from logistical problems and most guilds / raid groups are adopting the 10 man set up. Because of this they feel like they have to incentivize 25 man raids by having better loot.
This makes me wonder, how many people actually like group content that requires more than 5-10 people? Do they enjoy it for that reason? If the biggest MMO in the world feels like their players will only play through content if the rewards are better than what's available in other content, what does that say about the game? What does it say about the players?
TLDR: If you really enjoy group content, would you still enjoy it if the in game rewards were no better than what could be achieved without a group?
TLDR: If you really enjoy group content, would you still enjoy it if the in game rewards were no better than what could be achieved without a group?
I'm a completionist. If it was indicated somehow that I had completed that content, then yes, I would. The loot isn't important to me, beyond aethetics.
Why do you think a soloable mmo MUST have an ending?
Because if you can solo everything then it's naturally going to be easy to complete. Even the hardest single player game is just a case of timing and knowing when to hit the buttons, it's not rocket science. More players gives more room for error and more people to split the rewards between, hence there is a reason to repeat content. In a solo only game, once you've done something then that content is complete and you'll be wanting something else. It's not possible to give unlimited content in that fashion.
Soloable =/= singleplayer
Soloable == killable by a single player, by any means
Singleplayer == killable by a single player and balanced so that a player of a set skill in set quality gear and a toon of set power can comfortably complete it within a set amount of time
Again, and let me rephrase that, where do you see a difference between a solo player killing a mob (boss or otherwise) in 100 minutes while the group of 10 kills him 10 times in those 100 minutes?
It is not rocket science.
Where do you see a difference between raid grind hamster wheel and solo grind hamster wheel? Especially if either is optional.
So you'd want to repeat the same content on your own over and over? It would have to be a really good game for me to want to repeat something indefinitely.
So you want to exclusively complete the same content with the group over and over?
Why do you think "saving time and effort" is NO reason to group?
Why are you mentioning grouping when we're talking about a soloable game?
Just because you jumped to the wild conlusion that in a soloable game grouping MUST be pointless it does not mean everyone has.
Do you really think "soloable" means "as fast and utterly easy as with a group"?
It would have to be, especially if the game has different classes, as the content would have to be soloable by each one of those classes, otherwise the game fails as a solo experience. Naturally some of those classes are going to have an easier time than others, such as the Wizard who will have lots of damage but take few hits.
When did we go from "soloable" to "easy for all", just because you envision every pve experience as a 5minute dps race with enrages against a boss, not everyone does.
Do you really think 90% of the lfr crowd would even notice if the players would be replaced by NPCs ?
Yes. I'm not sure about the current WoW crowd but from the raids I've done, which have been EverQuest and Lord of the Rings Online (before they become little more than large group content), the raid was just something fun for the guild to do as a whole, while gaining extra equipment. Multiplayer games are about the people you're sharing the game with - perhaps that's the part you're missing out on and why you think a single player version would better suit you.
Originally posted by LadyEuphei This thread should be closed on a mmo forum. This is rediculous. No mmo should be soloable, it is just AGH! I need to breathe...seriously this idea is rediculous and it makes no sense. If you want to solo and be by yourself go play a multiplayer card game in a corner with your imaginary friends....
This is a good example how narrow minded, burned out and jaded we have become as a community.
This person has never ever considered that the "soloability" could take , say, 10 times as long as the grouping, actually ENCOURAGING the grouping instead of FORCING it as the new mmos do and why everyone behaves like Dfense inside a pug raid.
Because in this twisted twilight zone we operate these days, the prolonged time required would be UNFAIR to all the soloers for some reason not even the soloers understand.
Flame on!
Your form of "encouragement" is what people would refer to as "forcing".
Compared to what exactly? Raids?
Flame on!
If grouping is far more efficient than soloing, people would argue that this is equivalent to "forcing" them to group.
Originally posted by LadyEuphei This thread should be closed on a mmo forum. This is rediculous. No mmo should be soloable, it is just AGH! I need to breathe...seriously this idea is rediculous and it makes no sense. If you want to solo and be by yourself go play a multiplayer card game in a corner with your imaginary friends....
This is a good example how narrow minded, burned out and jaded we have become as a community.
This person has never ever considered that the "soloability" could take , say, 10 times as long as the grouping, actually ENCOURAGING the grouping instead of FORCING it as the new mmos do and why everyone behaves like Dfense inside a pug raid.
Because in this twisted twilight zone we operate these days, the prolonged time required would be UNFAIR to all the soloers for some reason not even the soloers understand.
Flame on!
Your form of "encouragement" is what people would refer to as "forcing".
Compared to what exactly? Raids?
Flame on!
If grouping is far more efficient than soloing, people would argue that this is equivalent to "forcing" them to group.
The efficiency is not given, you have to share with your groupmates.
And sure, if you have problems weighting the pros and cons of having the "hassle" with other individuals, you can go to the area of "I want to be a good mother, but i also want to raid, so, how do i make my toddler eat his dinner later so that i can raid?", but you will have to travel in that swamp of stupidity on your own.
Originally posted by LadyEuphei This thread should be closed on a mmo forum. This is rediculous. No mmo should be soloable, it is just AGH! I need to breathe...seriously this idea is rediculous and it makes no sense. If you want to solo and be by yourself go play a multiplayer card game in a corner with your imaginary friends....
This is a good example how narrow minded, burned out and jaded we have become as a community.
This person has never ever considered that the "soloability" could take , say, 10 times as long as the grouping, actually ENCOURAGING the grouping instead of FORCING it as the new mmos do and why everyone behaves like Dfense inside a pug raid.
Because in this twisted twilight zone we operate these days, the prolonged time required would be UNFAIR to all the soloers for some reason not even the soloers understand.
Flame on!
Your form of "encouragement" is what people would refer to as "forcing".
Compared to what exactly? Raids?
Flame on!
If grouping is far more efficient than soloing, people would argue that this is equivalent to "forcing" them to group.
The efficiency is not given, you have to share with your groupmates.
And sure, if you have problems weighting the pros and cons of having the "hassle" with other individuals, you can go to the area of "I want to be a good mother, but i also want to raid, so, how do i make my toddler eat his dinner later so that i can raid?", but you will have to travel in that swamp of stupidity on your own.
Flame on!
I assumed that your "10 times as long as the grouping," was under the condition that everything else was equal, which would suggest grouping to be far more efficient than soloing, which would be "forced grouping". Evidently, I was wrong in assuming that.
Im mostly with the OP here. I would like to see a lot more solo content in MMO's and single player games just do not meet what I am after. I like the MMO experience because i want to play in a truly dynamic world and have the option to meet and group up with people if the mood strikes me. I am an adult and am not horribly social and do not want to play with the vast majority of people out there, especially in a game like WoW that attracts so many kids. This isn't meant to disparage those people in any way, but grouping with them is not my idea of a good time.
I really enjoyed EVE because I could be a really viable player all on my own, I am not sure if they intended that people could solo well, especially in a PVP environment, but people could. You really had to choose your fights and be wary, but it was very possible on many levels. I would love to see a game like that in the fantasy genre. WoW can be a lot of fun for me until I hit the brick wall of max level and have to start grouping to progress, this isn't to say that I never group up, some times I do a lot, but the last time I played the whole dungeon finder experience was absolutely awful at max level.
I just watched a video on U tube about Elder Scrolls Online. They say that you will be able to go solo. Anyone that has played this game knows how you can go where you want and do anythig you want. This is still going to be the same when it goes online. I cant wait for this to come out next year... :-)
It's been mentioned several times in the thread, but Asheron's Call was entirely soloable.
They don't want to hear it.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The idea of a full on MMORPG that is 100% solo centric is laughable at best. Even the crap MMos that are being pumped out now, as easy as they are, still require the best stuff to come from harder content. ( Group content )
Thou dost laugh at UO?
I never played UO. Is the game 100% soloable? No group content what so ever? Everything thats ingame can be attained completely through 100% solo gameplay? Any pvp and or rewards from pvp
Not being a smartass. I really want to know.
Nothing requires a group to complete. Then again, UO, Second Life, There, vMTV and other MMOs with a virtual world emphasis are about creating and building a character that takes part in a game world with other characters. The only coded part about interaction is tools to support how players interact. In those MMOs there is no such thing as 'grouping' because it's a natural part of social behaviour. The term itself is ridiculous and shows a major issue with the development of today's MMOs. Interaction - social or otherwise - is done both at the level of the players interest and voluntarily.
Most MMOs are just about killing small mobs to be able to kill bigger mobs to be able to kill bigger mobs, etc, etc. They are shallow experiences with few, if any, tools to support player interaction.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by DropDeadFred I just watched a video on U tube about Elder Scrolls Online. They say that you will be able to go solo. Anyone that has played this game knows how you can go where you want and do anythig you want. This is still going to be the same when it goes online. I cant wait for this to come out next year... :-)
Sorry to burst your bubble, but you will NOT be able to go whereever you want in TESO like the SPG games.
Almost 2/3 of the game area will be closed off to opposing realms (because there were closed off realms in the SPG games, right?), so the only way you get to see those places, is to play 2 other toons.
Plus, the realms/classes are race locked, to if you want to play anything but the pre-selected affiliations, you are out of luck (which is the polar opposite of the ES SPG games, where could play whatever toon you wanted and do anything).
The names and places from the ES world might be in there, but most of the gameplay and gameplay philosophies, are not.
Comments
I dont agree with the OP on most things. This topic was goin to be no different. Making solo content just as hard as group content? please. If the solo content is to hard then you just get someone to help you.... OOOPS That would be grouping.
These are the same people that cant be bothered with others and still want end game gear even though they dont raid or do high end grouping to get said gear/items. They feel as if they are entiteled to it.
And it doesnt stop at adventuring. Even the solo task of crafting is a chore for most. Should have heard all the complaining and crying VG.
If you want a 100% solo game, Play the 1000s of console games thats available.
Want to play a 100% solo game with other people? Call some friends over to watch you play.
Want to play a 100% solo game With other people and trade? Call some friends over to watch you play and tell them to bring something with them to trade with you.
The idea of a full on MMORPG that is 100% solo centric is laughable at best. Even the crap MMos that are being pumped out now, as easy as they are, still require the best stuff to come from harder content. ( Group content )
Thou dost laugh at UO?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I never played UO. Is the game 100% soloable? No group content what so ever? Everything thats ingame can be attained completely through 100% solo gameplay? Any pvp and or rewards from pvp
Not being a smartass. I really want to know.
Compared to what exactly? Raids?
Flame on!
So for which goal would the player need a group in L2 ?
Its 8 years old, btw.
If recent mmos would do it we would not have this thread, would we?
Flame on!
It's been mentioned several times in the thread, but Asheron's Call was entirely soloable.
It was a skill based game so anyone could take the Healing skill or the Life Magic skill. Even random drop items would sometimes have a spell imbued in them that the item would cast, such as a heal spell or a stamina to health spell or something of the sort. So even if you didn't have the skills, you could still help yourself in other ways. Life Magic had healing spells, as well as spells which let you juggle your health/stamina/mana back and forth and convert them into each other for 50-100%+ returns on the conversions. It allowed you to run into a massive group of enemies, pull them all, and take them out one by one or in groups if you were a mage. You'd juggle your stats, or even drain health/stam/mana from the enemies and use it yourself.
It was an excellent system that allowed for you to be entirely self sustainable. Relying on others for heals wasn't really the playstyle of the game, although grouping took place often. Groups were great because after level 50 you could group with anyone 50+ and it would split XP evenly in the group. Less people meant more XP split. But the great thing was, even with a large group, you could still have 50% or higher XP split meaning you benefited hugely from a group of people slaughtering dozens of enemies at once.
This discussion has created some interesting questions. In a recent interview with Gamebreaker, Greg Street the lead system designer for World Of Warcraft admitted that 25 man raiding suffers from logistical problems and most guilds / raid groups are adopting the 10 man set up. Because of this they feel like they have to incentivize 25 man raids by having better loot.
This makes me wonder, how many people actually like group content that requires more than 5-10 people? Do they enjoy it for that reason? If the biggest MMO in the world feels like their players will only play through content if the rewards are better than what's available in other content, what does that say about the game? What does it say about the players?
TLDR: If you really enjoy group content, would you still enjoy it if the in game rewards were no better than what could be achieved without a group?
I'm a completionist. If it was indicated somehow that I had completed that content, then yes, I would. The loot isn't important to me, beyond aethetics.
Flame on!
If grouping is far more efficient than soloing, people would argue that this is equivalent to "forcing" them to group.
The efficiency is not given, you have to share with your groupmates.
And sure, if you have problems weighting the pros and cons of having the "hassle" with other individuals, you can go to the area of "I want to be a good mother, but i also want to raid, so, how do i make my toddler eat his dinner later so that i can raid?", but you will have to travel in that swamp of stupidity on your own.
Flame on!
I assumed that your "10 times as long as the grouping," was under the condition that everything else was equal, which would suggest grouping to be far more efficient than soloing, which would be "forced grouping". Evidently, I was wrong in assuming that.
Im mostly with the OP here. I would like to see a lot more solo content in MMO's and single player games just do not meet what I am after. I like the MMO experience because i want to play in a truly dynamic world and have the option to meet and group up with people if the mood strikes me. I am an adult and am not horribly social and do not want to play with the vast majority of people out there, especially in a game like WoW that attracts so many kids. This isn't meant to disparage those people in any way, but grouping with them is not my idea of a good time.
I really enjoyed EVE because I could be a really viable player all on my own, I am not sure if they intended that people could solo well, especially in a PVP environment, but people could. You really had to choose your fights and be wary, but it was very possible on many levels. I would love to see a game like that in the fantasy genre. WoW can be a lot of fun for me until I hit the brick wall of max level and have to start grouping to progress, this isn't to say that I never group up, some times I do a lot, but the last time I played the whole dungeon finder experience was absolutely awful at max level.
By large measure I prefer solo oriented games. I would not care playing wow, swtor, ... in single player version if available.
As for group content, people have endgame.
Think you missed the point of this thread.
They don't want to hear it.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Nothing requires a group to complete. Then again, UO, Second Life, There, vMTV and other MMOs with a virtual world emphasis are about creating and building a character that takes part in a game world with other characters. The only coded part about interaction is tools to support how players interact. In those MMOs there is no such thing as 'grouping' because it's a natural part of social behaviour. The term itself is ridiculous and shows a major issue with the development of today's MMOs. Interaction - social or otherwise - is done both at the level of the players interest and voluntarily.
Most MMOs are just about killing small mobs to be able to kill bigger mobs to be able to kill bigger mobs, etc, etc. They are shallow experiences with few, if any, tools to support player interaction.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
As if you know what the purpose of everyone for playing an MMO is.
What if someone wants to solo adventure, then trade with massive number of players on the AH? He can't do it in a single player game, can he?
Sorry to burst your bubble, but you will NOT be able to go whereever you want in TESO like the SPG games.
Almost 2/3 of the game area will be closed off to opposing realms (because there were closed off realms in the SPG games, right?), so the only way you get to see those places, is to play 2 other toons.
Plus, the realms/classes are race locked, to if you want to play anything but the pre-selected affiliations, you are out of luck (which is the polar opposite of the ES SPG games, where could play whatever toon you wanted and do anything).
The names and places from the ES world might be in there, but most of the gameplay and gameplay philosophies, are not.