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Originally posted by gordiflu Bad class balance is something that may get better after the beta (I doubt it); same applies to poor tooltips. But the rest of the issues are related to the core concept of the game and are not going to change no matter how long and meticulous such beta is. Finally, this beta's objective was a stress test. They are not going to change the core game mechanics. If anything, they'll work on server architecture, network architecture and such. And these core game mechanics are flawed now, and will have exactly the same flaws on actual release. They won't change. This is pretty much the game you are going to get bar a few missing aditions.
Today it was announced that they would be giving us multiple ammo types, removing the constraint system for T2 (if I heard correctly those will be in the patch coming this Monday) and next year seperating PvP and PvE gear, giving tournement play set loadouts. How's that for core changes, that are happening RIGHT NOW. Plenty more to come after these are done.
You might reconsider your view on this particular beta, as it's as far from a marketing beta as you can get. We get features they are considering, to see if they are actually fun. When they're not, they actually change things for us. This beta is not an early sneak peek, it's not even feature complete yet.
I have to admit the OP touches on a lot of my concerns with the game as-is.
The game has a lot of promise - and I like it so far. It's still a ways from "release" - although you could make the argument that it is released now as B2P, and they are just ironing out the wrinkles before they go full F2P - I don't mind. I did actually buy into the Founders Pack after the last Beta weekend. I thought it was fun enough for $20 and no sub, but I still don't think it's quite ready for unrestricted prime time, so I'm glad to see they are marketing it as such and don't discredit them for this.
But that's the biggest issue with the game - it has lots of promise but it hasn't delivered yet. Of the two or three actual quests in the game, they are pretty buggy. The map is small right now (regardless of what is promised, I won't judge from a promise, only what's available), and those damned mountains right in the middle are really annoying - even with jetpack you can't scale them without lots of short hops, and gliders, yeah. I'll leave that one alone.
I want there to be more content - desperately. I don't PvP, I could care less for PvP - I don't care about structured PvP or ladder rankings or open world PvP. I like the Chosen incursion. I like thumping (in short bursts, I can only take killing bugs for so long). I like exploring and just taking out the menacing wildlife. I would like a few more quests, but honestly, I don't really need them.
Just give me some more variation the the world that's out there already and I'd be happy. Brazil so far is fun. Add in a new map on-par with this one, and I'd be a happy camper - maybe change up the wildlife and give the Chosen a twist on each map, but I don't need cookie-cutter quests with waypoint markers - I like just having the open map to explore with things going on in it that make it feel alive. That, so far, is what I like best about this game. Between the Chosen, the Melding Tornados, and just the general random wildlife, the game feels alive. As you run across the map (and argh... you are forced to run everywhere) you run into stuff happening - be it a lot of bug pods, a chosen incursion, a party out thumping, or a full blown melding tornado.
And I wouldn't mind a bit of mass transit. It is a small map, but walking from Thump Dump to Sunken Harbor still takes forever - just linking Thump Dump/Copa/Sunken with something (even if it takes a bit of real time, like a hopper ride or a bus service or something) would help a good deal. I don't want instant teleportation though - that isn't much fun. The worst part is when your out near the melding wall exploring, die, and pop back up in Copa like 15 minutes from where you were...
Originally posted by gordiflu Well, I have tried to like the game. I have put some decent hours into it, hoping that I would finally find something in it worth my time. However, the more I play the more I am convinced this is not my game. It actually has everything that I dislike in any game, everything at once, and it even managed to expand my list. Small map: nuf said. Really really tiny. Artificial pathing: To make up for the lack of size, they build rivers and cliffs all over the place, so that if your objective is 100 mts away, you know you will have to walk around all those dense obstacles for several miles. Zergy: very zergy! The most efficient way of getting exp is joining any zerg or just solo-zerging any watch tower that is under attack. Promotes ninjaing: Ninjaing kills grants experience faster than actually killing stuff. You don't even need to participate on the kill to ninja the loot. Locking animations: Nothing like getting killed while you reanimate somebody or execute an enemy mob and not beeing able to do anything about it. Stupid respawns: Like a dozen enemy mobs at once respawning on your face with no warning whatsoever who insta-engage you. Grindy: I quickly found myself doing the same thing over and over and over and over... Cartoony graphics. I know this is just something personal, but I also know I am not the only one who dislikes that. Bad class balance: While some classes can grind exp AFK, others struggle to complete one quest alone. On top of that they managed to add: Bad aiming, specially when strafing. Bad munition management Bad tooltips (when you happen to have them) Dynamic? My ass. The same events spawn at the same place with the same time intervals. So predictable that it's a joke.t So, well I tried, man I tried, but... I have to end up admiting to myself I have wasted my time trying to like this game.
Could you throw me an invite to Firefall or your account if you are not using it anymore please? I love testing games when they are raw and unpolished... I've beta tested games like Horizons, Eve, WoW, Vanguard, etc.
PM me plz.
Back to the topic... what do you mean smal map? From the game play videos I see players navigate a fairly large territory. Could you please clarify your definition of large?
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Originally posted by jimmyman99Back to the topic... what do you mean smal map? From the game play videos I see players navigate a fairly large territory. Could you please clarify your definition of large?
Not that I'm the OP, but I do agree with them on this regard, so I'll shoot back something on it.
The map, as it stands right now, mimics an area in Brazil along the coast, according to the story. It does a pretty good job of keeping that feel - it feels coastal along the water, and as you move inland, it feels more like a living jungle - with a few urban (both populated and ruined) areas in the mix.
There is 1 major hub - Copacabana. There are 3 minor hubs: Trans-Hub, Thump Dump, and Sunken Harbor. The minor areas don't quite feel finished yet - they have some facilities, but are mostly empty. There are also several other watchtowers and other small areas of note along the way.
Now, if you actually look at the map, approximately 1/3 of it is covered with glowy blue - which is The Melding - it can be temporarily pushed back by players (although we don't have enough players or resources to push it back far or for long right now).
The longest trek in game right now is probably from Thump Dump (in the far Northwest) to Sunken Harbor (in the far Southeast). As the crow flies (or the glider crashes), it's probably about 3200m (the game measures distance in meters). If you could walk straight there, it would take less than 5 minutes - distance goes fairly quick in the game when it's a level run.
The problem is, between the deep water (that nearly insta-kills you), and the mountain ridges (which are very, very steep), it makes the run (and more to the point, any and every run) take about 4x that long. Jumpjets are great, but they can only get you about 20-30m of vertical distance before they are out of power (and the mountain ridges are well over 500m tall nearly sheer faces in many places).
A glider could cover the distnace from Thump Dump to Sunken Harbor in around a minute. Gliders are fun, but they only work with gravity and cannot gain altitude; you can't glider over a ridge, only down from a high spot, and god help you if you stall out (or the glider bugs and swan dives).
It basically turns the entire map into a large maze, and trying to get to a waypoint that's maybe 200m away (which should be visible and nearly in firing range) can take 4-5 minutes as you have to find the path around or up - and especially frustrating if a melding tornado or missed jump drops you off the side of the cliff that the tower you are working on is perched upon, and to get back 100m takes 3-4 minutes...
So the map itself, not very big at all, maybe 4km x 4km (using the game's measurements), especially when compared to something like PS2's maps. But the fact that there are almost no straight shots to anywhere makes it feel bigger, or at least just take longer...
To give it something relative to compare to, I'd say it's probably about the same size as Barrens in WoW, only toss a lot more mountains and water in there to make getting anywhere a huge pain in the rear.
A single shot can cover a distance of about 200m, but the map is only about 4000m long... that gives you a better picture of how small the map feels in 2 dimensions, but when you add in the third dimension it doesn't really feel any bigger, just more frustrating as it makes getting from Point A to Point B ridiculous at times.
Originally posted by Ridelynn So the map itself, not very big at all, maybe 4km x 4km (using the game's measurements), especially when compared to something like PS2's maps. But the fact that there are almost no straight shots to anywhere makes it feel bigger, or at least just take longer... To give it something relative to compare to, I'd say it's probably about the same size as Barrens in WoW, only toss a lot more mountains and water in there to make getting anywhere a huge pain in the rear
I have done a thread that should hopefully clear up the concerns about Firefall's 'Small' world as this seems to pop up a lot, and basically is due to people not understanding why it is small and how it will expand.
The design of the world, with the high cliffs, rocks, etc... and not having any clear path between point A and point B I love though, I can understand that its hard to get to some places and may be easier for people to accept once the dropship transport or fast travel is the game, which I understand are planned to be in. But for me personally it was one of the main attractions to the game, the world I think its amazingly done and not your standard false worlds from most other games. It feels natural and is the perfect exploration kind of terrain.
Though I can understand that this maybe a personal taste thing, but in a game where everyone has jetpacks it would be boring if it was flat.
Just to clarify a few things, answering some posters above me.
I am a founder. I have over 800k worth of extra experience on my main T2 battleframe with everything unlocked and all my gear printed. I HAVE tested the game, not only played during the weekend.
When I mentioned that the map is tiny I was also considering the "purple" melding area, and even the black one. If we consider what's available now I would not have used the word tiny but rather microscopic. Not kidding here. And this is the second time I explain this in this same thread. Please, read before posting.
Artificial pathing is an old technique used by many devs to make up for it. Yes, we have jets. Even with them you are going to need to get around plenty of obstacles to get to your destination.
They can promise whatever about the future size of the world. I don't buy hype anymore, not even from a studio I respect like Red 5. What we have now, including the "melded" part is tiny, simple as.
Zerging means force by numbers but also means running back in when you die as soon as possible. That is what I meant with solo zerging. Luckily I don't need to do that anymore. Yes, I can also (like many many others) solo watchtowers, melding acolytes, incursions and tornadoes. Big deal. There are lots of players doing so. The game feels zergy for both reasons. People do win events by raw numbers (the old "follow the zerg") and since there is no death penalty whatsoever, not even gear repairs, those clumsy enough to die just run back into the fight.
Respawn rates are stupid. To the point that people do not take towers to farm experience and just kill the constant stream of respawns that happen on the top floor. There is no warning whatsoever about such respawn other than a flash of light for a fraction of a second and everything insta-agros the same target. They call it "the deathball". Yes, not taking a tower is more profitable than actually taking it.
Having said that, as I posted somewhere else, the game has plenty of issues, but also plenty of potential. Positive points are an interesting crafting system that shares some common traits with Ryzom or SWG, and that the game actually encourages grouping. The engine works well, although aiming and certain aspects of movement, like strafing or using your jets still feel clumsy. Aiming is acceptable but not good.
Yes, I know it's only my opinion and you are free to disagree and explain why.
On a side note, I created another thread about positive aspects of the game. The thread was almost ignored. Looks like a thread about the negative ones managed to draw lots more attention. This pretty much reinforces my point about fanbois beeing way more active and annoying than haters. The intention is not derailing, but I had to express that feeling.
Originally posted by gordiflu When I mentioned that the map is tiny I was also considering the "purple" melding area, and even the black one. If we consider what's available now I would not have used the word tiny but rather microscopic. Not kidding here. And this is the second time I explain this in this same thread. Please, read before posting. Artificial pathing is an old technique used by many devs to make up for it. Yes, we have jets. Even with them you are going to need to get around plenty of obstacles to get to your destination. They can promise whatever about the future size of the world. I don't buy hype anymore, not even from a studio I respect like Red 5. What we have now, including the "melded" part is tiny, simple as.
I did try to seperate out the discussions about the World Size to a seperate thread, but instead you try to discuss it further here and then complain when people discuss it here. You must know the typical forum appraoch for most people, read the 1st post, maybe read the last post...then respond, hence why I tried to seperated the discussion out.
I'm not going to explain any more why I felt that your comment of "Small map: nuf said. Really really tiny" needed a lot more explaining when their approach to expaning the world is entirely different to all games you are comparing it to. Fine, if you want to compare it to everything else, you will have a small map and you will be disapointed at launch... if you want to have an open mind and try to support a game that is trying to be original then go read....
...but "Small map: nuf said. Really really tiny" is only true if you don't understand (or as it seems to be in your case, dont believe) what they are trying to do in this game.
I read through your thread ElGringoUK - good post.
However, there are some concerns with it.
I don't fault the game for having a small map now. It's still in "Beta" (using that term very loosely). They have great plans for expanding the map, and I look forward to those immensely. The world they have built right now fits their own lore very well.
That doesn't change the fact that right now, what is playable, is small.
All the plans in the world, the biggest and best dreams for an in game world, the best explanations via in-game lore, don't mean anything until they actually put it into the game. Staged content is fine, I have no problem with it. But that doesn't alleviate the concern that myself, and many others have, about the initial world being fairly limiting.
I decided to pay and go founding as well, I think the game is fun. But I hope to see maps start to open up sooner rather than later. The artificial pathing elements are fun to look at - once. After that, it becomes tedious to me. At least until we get some mass transit going or vehicles become accessible (to more than just high dollar donors). They really just serve to make the map feel that much smaller - once you do get on top of that mountain ridge, and look over, and you can see ~everything~ that's currently in the game - from the Arcfall to Sunken Harbor clear over to the tower at Thump Dump - you realize just how little geography is in the game right now. The game has some really go points besides that, and has some plans to really expand their geography out, but as it stands right now, there isn't much out there. That's just a fact.
I've seen way too many games and developers promise the moon, and only deliver green cheese, to take anything at more than face value any more.
Originally posted by FromHell do you know the meaning of the word BETA ???
Come on guys, it is just beta. The game will improve and the bugs will be worked out. I like the game so much, I bought the Commander pack.
I ride a Harley in RL and wanted a motorcycle....LOL
Give it time. So far, I think they did a jamb up job . Very fast paced.
I find it slightly amusing people still try to play the "IT"S ONLY IN BETA" card....I have played the beta for most mmo's for the past 10 years and never was there any extreme changes being made..the closest thing is quality of life features and balance changes...graphics optimisations....they never ever ever change core mechanics...what you see is what you will get..maybe a bit more polished.
That being said I also tried hard to like this game, as the concept seemed cool to me...it's extremely uninspirired and generic though..I don't like the smallness of the maps or how there is basically 2 public quests to do that are the same thing over and over...honestly I tried so hard to like the game I accidently shat in my chair...which actually called my attention away from the game as my shat was more interesting.
So how come a post I do about Defiance and stating my opinions about it gets deleted, and this post giving out specific game details still under the NDA, doesnt get deleted ?
MMORPG.COM staff are so funny!
Originally posted by funcon All I did was watch a vid of the game on youtube. Didnt look like my type of game. PS2 masssive worlds and battles are a lot better imo.
while i somewhat agree with this, i still prefer FF for the graphics, the Third Person Perspective, The PvE, and the Character Progression.
Its in beta tho, not fair to compare it to PS2. FF website has a development timeline that shows all the content that will come before launch (i hope that they add it soon). And I also hope the tweak the way the melding works because when you open the map you see the map is a lot bigger but part of it is covered by the melding and the other part of it its still not open to players.
EDIT: FF will compare directly with Defiance, but for some reason i had a blast in Defiance first beta weekend, while yesterday i got bored to death and havent logged back in that beta weekend
Originally posted by ElGringoUK I'm not going to explain any more why I felt that your comment of "Small map: nuf said. Really really tiny" needed a lot more explaining when their approach to expaning the world is entirely different to all games you are comparing it to. Fine, if you want to compare it to everything else, you will have a small map and you will be disapointed at launch... if you want to have an open mind and try to support a game that is trying to be original then go read.... http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/566/view/forums/thread/372150/The-world-of-Firefall.html ...but "Small map: nuf said. Really really tiny" is only true if you don't understand (or as it seems to be in your case, dont believe) what they are trying to do in this game.
This does seem really neat, but I just hope they put a lot of thought into this and consider their audience. MMO players can be pretty hardcore and if the availability of unlocking content is based on the actions of the players' progression, they could (in theory) unlock every bit of content within a day. Some artificial wall could be hit within 3 days and suddenly to the devs "We're still working on the rest". I realize they want to be different and have their little gimmick but it's a dangerous notion considering their audience, though I do hope it pays off since I like it when companies take a chance on something new.
As for all the 'beta' comments, problem is the definition of beta has evolved over the past few years with releases like GW2, STO, Tera, a lot of these largely-hyped games which are mostly-done when the 'beta' starts and use beta as both a stress test and a hype-machine rather than fixing actual bugs and getting feedback on content. Firefall seems like it's in a real beta mode with lots of bugs, unfinished content, and hopefully accepting real feedback from their testers. There's a lot to do but also a lot of potential. Honestly my biggest complaints are probably the interface which is very confusing and unintuitive, and finding things around the towns. A mini-map of safe-zones with markers for crafting areas, frame customizations and such would be appreciated. With the interface I found myself choosing certain things and hitting the wrong buttons a lot because i dont' realize it suddenly replaces my weapon or uses one of my other keys.
Anyways, I hope it evolves well!
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
I had to necro this, sorry, but I had to.
New milestone patch added.
New content? Actually nothing. The same ridiculously tiny map. Yeah, it's beta. The game is going to launch which exactly the same microscopic map and you will say "it just launched". Then, a year later, with still the same liliput map, you will say "the game is young"... etc. Regardless what you say, the map will still be small. Very small. Way too small.
Guess I ll have to wait for next major patch... again.
just to say, it is tiny indeed for an mmo shooter.
but after all the change they maybe and i been playing this game for almost 2 year ( i cant remember a beta that took so long)
you could at least make the effort in thinking they will bring what they mean to. like a bigger map.
and did you try the new content they placed ?
just 1 example that i didnt new at all and surprised me.
tornado when you defeat those you get zoned into a melded place and get to fight the chosen.
its just an upgrade but also new content .
and come on new chosen more then 30 ingame quest, chosen attacking the citys ? whit strategies. not from a a pick up spawn point but they work to the citys from the melding and taking over everything in there path. you never know when it happen this time.
new ingame garage and progression tree and new crafting menu and more.
heck i didnt even checked the PVP side( while i am sure a lot of ppl said it didn't work now but hell no time for it^^)
they keep changing and trying to make this the game ppl want to play it. am sure its not perfect now and not many ppl do like this type of mmo.
but for the ppl that like it wel they are doing there best for them, and they are taking the feedback seriusly not like most other beta game.
just saying is that for a beta tester your opinion are becoming flat.
since the whole time you saying that whit your experience you accumulated over all those beta you played, this game wont promise us what they will. but in the mean time they do are changing a lot.
its like your argument at the begin of this tread need to be reworked again since firefall was totaly something different then at 12/01/2012
you need to try and believe in a beta game more before its out and not compare it to the other beta you been trough
also take this as a feedback not a flame or bash and my english is my 5th languisch so i suck in typing^^
Defiance is Firefalls only contender in this open third person world shooter mmo genre. Hopefully Defiance puts enough pressure on RED 5 Studios to get Firefall on its feet. I love Firefall but the lack of content gets depressing after a short game session. While its still beta, the milestone keeps moving forward but the amount of content doesnt look like its moving at all, just changing in place.
I Really hope this game makes a serious contender to Defiance's variety and size of content.