As far as I'm concerned, if you can hit max level completely solo then it is a solo game. Those few raid dungeons at the end are just a poor way of keeping people playing beyond the games life span.
Out of all the level based games listed on this site how many require a group to hit max level? I can only think of one, FFXI.
Solo players, you've gotten what you wanted and you're still complaining. Give it a rest.
Be concerned as much you like. No matter how many times you repeat your lies, they will never become true. Massively does NOT mean "forced grouping".
Originally posted by Mr_C I find it weird that group fanatics are being offended that someone want an MMO with soloable content. Like they are forced to play that or getting sleepless nights. (If someone start having sleepless nights due to an MMO with solo content then serious helped is highly recommended).
We (the group loving get of my lawn group) are deeply offended by it yes. Its taking what this Genre is all about the very foundation of it all and smashing it too pieces. I'm not saying we are having sleeples nights over it, But this is a De-evolution of the genre not a step forward as some claim.
I am so glad you're not the one who defines the genre. So far everything is pointing to that you group fanatics arent worth listening to either, since games are moving more and more away from your extremistic requirements and thus have become better games to play.
if they have become better games to play then why are so many of these themeparks crashing and burning? with players often returning to WoW, because lets face it WoW will be the #1 thempark out there forever. there issnt gonna be any game better then wow by just copying it. nor by stating you do this and that difrently but in the end the core game is the same. and WoW does it better.
henceforth we need something really diffrent wich is returning to the roots of what an MMO was all about.
If MMO's would be your like you group fanatic's wet dream, they would be close the unplayable by the 'masses', which is a paradox since the 'M' means massively.
Accept that the 'M' does not means "forced grouping", but for being able to interact with others then move on. You might as well get a good night sleep too.
I have a wonderful idea for you and those like you. If you want to play a game that is 100% soloable, try these brand new MMOs, they haven't been out very long and are all the rage. You don't even have to have an epensive rig to play them. Perhaps you may have hear of them, they are called CONSOLE GAMES.
Because MMORPG's were meant for COMMUNITY. There are 100% soloable RPG's though...on XBox360 and PS3...where they were meant for.
Soloing/grouping for content has nothing to do with whether there is the presence of community or not. You could solo everything in UO, and the game is one of the most praised titles of both the community and the sandbox crowds.
It's the same old solo vs group conversation, repeated ad nauseum because most people here honestly cannot wrap their heads around any non-combat gameplay outside of bizarre and convoluted crafting schemes.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Since 2008/9 WoW is a game with a focus on forced grouping.
90% of your time you will spend either in a lfg "lobby", in a dungeon or raid. Since those lfxyz groups are random, the players may as well be npcs, there is no difference (and im being generous).
It also has troubles with growth since that time.
THUS it is extremely amusing to see two groups who hold opposite beliefs BOTH use it as a argument FOR their case.
1. Not everyone plays the same way, never have, never will. My ideal game is not everyone else's ideal game. My nostalgic memories are not everyone else's nostalgic memories. What I enjoy, others will hate and vice-versa.
2. There is not an objective right or wrong about any design. There is what people will play and what people will not play. That, in the end, is all that matters to a publisher, not any idealistic dogma of what a game should or shouldn't have.
3. If I find myself arguing with a large number of people that my vision is better than their vision, I should probably realize that both visions are going to have a market and I should be thinking over how well they can coexist in a single game rather than which has the right to exist.
As far as I'm concerned, if you can hit max level completely solo then it is a solo game. Those few raid dungeons at the end are just a poor way of keeping people playing beyond the games life span.
Out of all the level based games listed on this site how many require a group to hit max level? I can only think of one, FFXI.
Solo players, you've gotten what you wanted and you're still complaining. Give it a rest.
Be concerned as much you like. No matter how many times you repeat your lies, they will never become true. Massively does NOT mean "forced grouping".
Nvm.. i'm too tired to debate this topic anymore.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
Same reason there isn't an mmo which has 100% group content and the same reason there isn't an mmo which has 100% raid content.
Probably the wisest response in the entire thread. Some people seem to miss out on the fact that a MMORPG that features soloing, group and raid content is actually the game that is being offered and not some made up definition of what MMORPG's could or should be. Play the entire game and you can enjoy the benefits of the entire game, play only a small segment of it and you have no one but yourself to blame if you run out of content.
That being said, logic dictates that the main focus of a multiplayer game should always be multiplayer gameplay. Yes I do know that multiplayer does not specifically mean "grouped up" but at the same time it is not even close to meaning you should be able to play by yourself 100% of the time 100% of the game either. Grouping however is multiplayer, soloing (playing by yourself) is not and never will be unless they re-define the meaning of the word solo. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out what MMO's should promote.....
Originally posted by monstermmo uhh World of Warcraft. =p
No. Which was the reason I quit playing it; cause it forced me more and more to interact with morons. If WoW offered ways to achieve all gear with solo play, I would return instantly.
If WoW offered ways to achieve all gear with solo play, I would return instantly.
What prevents you from just ignoring that raid and dungeon gear exists? What play requires raid gear other than raids?
( I'm asking sincerely because it's a question I ask myself too in some games - if I want to just play within my prefered playstyle, why do I have trouble simply ignoring the fact that those other parts of the game, that I don't want to play, exist? )
If WoW offered ways to achieve all gear with solo play, I would return instantly.
What prevents you from just ignoring that raid and dungeon gear exists? What play requires raid gear other than raids?
( I'm asking sincerely because it's a question I ask myself too in some games - if I want to just play within my prefered playstyle, why do I have trouble simply ignoring the fact that those other parts of the game, that I don't want to play, exist? )
It was so that you HAD to do PvE, forcing you into groups, to get the best weapons which I used for my BG & open world PvP. This was their "way" for many years. After that I turned my back to the game and never looked back. End of story.
Now would it not be a good idea for those who want to force grouping upon people who wants to enjoy and interact with others on their own premises, to release a game with full solo content? That means the group fanatics would not have to play with the unbearable "soloers" which gives them sleepless nights as well as something new and exclusve are given to the soloers which would peek their interest. A win-win situation.
OP you need to stick to single player games bro. If you make an MMO solo-able you just made SWTOR the single player republic.
Try games like Skyrim, Kingdoms of Amular: Reckonging, Torchlight 2, Oblivion, The Fable Series... etc. Those are your kind of games my friend.. and theres nothing wrong with that.
Imo, very little in an mmo should be easy to Solo.
OP you need to stick to single player games bro. If you make an MMO solo-able you just made SWTOR the single player republic.
Try games like Skyrim, Kingdoms of Amular: Reckonging, Torchlight 2, Oblivion, The Fable Series... etc. Those are your kind of games my friend.. and theres nothing wrong with that.
Imo, very little in an mmo should be easy to Solo.
I think its fair for someone to want to play an MMO from start to finish solo, but to obtain all items as well? That's a bit rediculous. Just like in real life, there are some things you can't do on your own. It would defy the whole purpose of the MMO. Im with and I think those games are excellent recommendations. Though I hated Kingdoms of Amular as it was an SP game with MMO styled quests in what I personally felt was a dead world.
OP you need to stick to single player games bro. If you make an MMO solo-able you just made SWTOR the single player republic.
Try games like Skyrim, Kingdoms of Amular: Reckonging, Torchlight 2, Oblivion, The Fable Series... etc. Those are your kind of games my friend.. and theres nothing wrong with that.
Imo, very little in an mmo should be easy to Solo.
Invalid argument. OP definately not need to play RPG, that is pure bollocks. It is like saying you should go play Monopoly cause that can't be played alone just because you want to shove your playstyle upon others. I see no problem at all having all content soloable with a toon which were properly setup and/or developed. There are plenty of aspects in the MMORPG acronym which implies there should be enough to do for those desperately needing others to "do" something with; have you all forgot the R that stands for Roleplaying?? It is just as lame to force people to Roleplay as it is to force people into groups.
Me for example, would like to use the tradeskills and Auction Houses to interact with others, as well as fighting over PvP goals instead of lame grouping with fantatical fanbois. No need to have content which forces people to group to have plenty of things to enjoy in a good MMO. Heck, I like them MMOFPS too, cause they are so easy and quick to get into; unlike many MMO's today which are a pain cause you need both guild and big teams to get anywhere. I totally disagree with anyone who says that "a group should be needed for anything" like you. That would be an epic fail of a game release today.
OP you need to stick to single player games bro. If you make an MMO solo-able you just made SWTOR the single player republic.
Try games like Skyrim, Kingdoms of Amular: Reckonging, Torchlight 2, Oblivion, The Fable Series... etc. Those are your kind of games my friend.. and theres nothing wrong with that.
Imo, very little in an mmo should be easy to Solo.
Invalid argument. OP definately not need to play RPG, that is pure bollocks. It is like saying you should go play Monopoly cause that can't be played alone just because you want to shove your playstyle upon others. I see no problem at all having all content soloable with a toon which were properly setup and/or developed. There are plenty of aspects in the MMORPG acronym which implies there should be enough to do for those desperately needing others to "do" something with; have you all forgot the R that stands for Roleplaying?? It is just as lame to force people to Roleplay as it is to force people into groups.
Me for example, would like to use the tradeskills and Auction Houses to interact with others, as well as fighting over PvP goals instead of lame grouping with fantatical fanbois. No need to have content which forces people to group to have plenty of things to enjoy in a good MMO. Heck, I like them MMOFPS too, cause they are so easy and quick to get into; unlike many MMO's today which are a pain cause you need both guild and big teams to get anywhere. I totally disagree with anyone who says that "a group should be needed for anything" like you. That would be an epic fail of a game release today.
I am not opposed to a fully soloable MMO being made, but I will admit it wouldn't appeal to me too much. I would probably give it a chance though as I try as many MMO's as I can that appear to be different.
Even though you could get all the best stuff in UO solo, you would miss out on some content as some areas were just so crazy hard to go solo that you'd probably never see them! So maybe thats a way that the OP and others could both have their way, if both HAD to have their way together.
Again, I love to primarily solo in MMO's, and it may seem like I am contradicting myself, but I just think gamers are only looking at the way games are made now a days, and its hard to imagine a game like WoW that is pure solo. Sounds like it would have to be a game that isn't based upon raiding. And of course, there is always room for more MMO's as the market is already proving right now.
Originally posted by LadyEuphei This thread should be closed on a mmo forum. This is rediculous. No mmo should be soloable, it is just AGH! I need to breathe...seriously this idea is rediculous and it makes no sense. If you want to solo and be by yourself go play a multiplayer card game in a corner with your imaginary friends....
I think you're taking what the OP is saying out of proportion. I believe what he is saying is, why not just go full single player although you would still have social aspects. But to put it in a different way take FF11 for instance. When that game came out you had to group for practically everything. I don't think that is the case any longer. I've been wondering this for awhile myself. Why not just make it grouping again or is this genre trying to do a balancing act because if so its kind of weird. Personally I don't agree to the tune that it should be full single player but I see his point on how odd it is to run from 1-80 on a toon only to then have to group up. Why then have the leveling process if the end game is practially all about grouping in higher level content.
Let us take it one step forward and say this. High level people should have a reason to go back to the lower level zones. Who knows random bosses, random spawning dungeons or something. A mixture of epic loot and also skins, mounts, titles, companion pets, and pet skins being the things that dropped. That way perhaps we could begin to solve the problem of a game getting years tacked on to it only to have the lower level zones practically empty and the newer players not wanting to join the game from fear of not having anyone to do the content with.
Perhaps get rid of quests or something. I'm not sure what you could put in place of it because you really do need that carrot on a stick to keep people plugging along. Also perhaps two experience bars kinda of like what Rift is doing with planar and regular experience. Its like a mini carrot you know the little baby carrots that taste good with ranch dressing...lol.
So in short perhaps after thought I owe you an apology and thusly say, I agree partly with the both of you because both parts have merit and both so desperately need to be addressed.
If WoW offered ways to achieve all gear with solo play, I would return instantly.
What prevents you from just ignoring that raid and dungeon gear exists? What play requires raid gear other than raids?
( I'm asking sincerely because it's a question I ask myself too in some games - if I want to just play within my prefered playstyle, why do I have trouble simply ignoring the fact that those other parts of the game, that I don't want to play, exist? )
Honestly there should be a way to get the raid gear and not raid. Perhaps say change it to a different gear name. Nothing should be achieved without hard work, at say the same pace as a raider with a fail ration thrown in there as well. Raiding is fun and I love it, but it does seem sad to only have a handful of people see that content. In Rift they have chronicles which I enjoy because it at least gives you a view of the raid dungeons. Granted I think raiding should stay but there should be an advancement in raiding as the form is just to rigid now. It should not be easy at all quite possibly a solo boss that learns from the player and gets tougher as you go along or something like "Mat (I think that was his name) from FF11 who was a dirty old man who you had to defeat in order to get your uber skill. So you had to pack potions and strategy and hope that he didn't do a certain combination or you were screwed.
I choose my words carefully man, as I said "very little" should be solo-able.. So why you take such a direct stance against my opinion I dont know.. but either way. I agree it's nice to be able to do your own thing in your favorite game from time to time.. but if the whole game is entirely soloable you may as well play any offline single player Rpg.. no? Why make an MMO that allows that kind of play.. it would have the worst community of all time..
I find that players always complain about something.. you make a game solo-friendly and its fail community.. you make a game require grouping to often and its lame cuz you cant solo anything. You make a game that lies somewhere in the middle, which most mmo's do, and you get agruements on both sides.. All in all, gamers are immpossible to please, and with that Im out. Enjoy the discussion.
Comments
Be concerned as much you like. No matter how many times you repeat your lies, they will never become true. Massively does NOT mean "forced grouping".
I have a wonderful idea for you and those like you. If you want to play a game that is 100% soloable, try these brand new MMOs, they haven't been out very long and are all the rage. You don't even have to have an epensive rig to play them. Perhaps you may have hear of them, they are called CONSOLE GAMES.
Soloing/grouping for content has nothing to do with whether there is the presence of community or not. You could solo everything in UO, and the game is one of the most praised titles of both the community and the sandbox crowds.
It's the same old solo vs group conversation, repeated ad nauseum because most people here honestly cannot wrap their heads around any non-combat gameplay outside of bizarre and convoluted crafting schemes.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
This thread is becoming ridiculous.
Since 2008/9 WoW is a game with a focus on forced grouping.
90% of your time you will spend either in a lfg "lobby", in a dungeon or raid. Since those lfxyz groups are random, the players may as well be npcs, there is no difference (and im being generous).
It also has troubles with growth since that time.
THUS it is extremely amusing to see two groups who hold opposite beliefs BOTH use it as a argument FOR their case.
Flame on!
A couple of points I like to keep in mind:
1. Not everyone plays the same way, never have, never will. My ideal game is not everyone else's ideal game. My nostalgic memories are not everyone else's nostalgic memories. What I enjoy, others will hate and vice-versa.
2. There is not an objective right or wrong about any design. There is what people will play and what people will not play. That, in the end, is all that matters to a publisher, not any idealistic dogma of what a game should or shouldn't have.
3. If I find myself arguing with a large number of people that my vision is better than their vision, I should probably realize that both visions are going to have a market and I should be thinking over how well they can coexist in a single game rather than which has the right to exist.
Nvm.. i'm too tired to debate this topic anymore.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
there are its called co-op :P
What singleplayer game can I play 100% of the content with other people?
the entire halo series, the entire gears of war series. lets move on shal we.
Probably the wisest response in the entire thread. Some people seem to miss out on the fact that a MMORPG that features soloing, group and raid content is actually the game that is being offered and not some made up definition of what MMORPG's could or should be. Play the entire game and you can enjoy the benefits of the entire game, play only a small segment of it and you have no one but yourself to blame if you run out of content.
That being said, logic dictates that the main focus of a multiplayer game should always be multiplayer gameplay. Yes I do know that multiplayer does not specifically mean "grouped up" but at the same time it is not even close to meaning you should be able to play by yourself 100% of the time 100% of the game either. Grouping however is multiplayer, soloing (playing by yourself) is not and never will be unless they re-define the meaning of the word solo. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out what MMO's should promote.....
The singleplayer and multiplayer component of those games are seperate. There is singleplayer content not available in multiplayer mode.
Jeremiah 8:21 I weep for the hurt of my people; I stand amazed, silent, dumb with grief.
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No. Which was the reason I quit playing it; cause it forced me more and more to interact with morons. If WoW offered ways to achieve all gear with solo play, I would return instantly.
What prevents you from just ignoring that raid and dungeon gear exists? What play requires raid gear other than raids?
( I'm asking sincerely because it's a question I ask myself too in some games - if I want to just play within my prefered playstyle, why do I have trouble simply ignoring the fact that those other parts of the game, that I don't want to play, exist? )
It was so that you HAD to do PvE, forcing you into groups, to get the best weapons which I used for my BG & open world PvP. This was their "way" for many years. After that I turned my back to the game and never looked back. End of story.
Now would it not be a good idea for those who want to force grouping upon people who wants to enjoy and interact with others on their own premises, to release a game with full solo content? That means the group fanatics would not have to play with the unbearable "soloers" which gives them sleepless nights as well as something new and exclusve are given to the soloers which would peek their interest. A win-win situation.
Wouldn't it be more reasonable to say that you want the best rewards for your playstyle to be available from playing your playstyle?
OP you need to stick to single player games bro. If you make an MMO solo-able you just made SWTOR the single player republic.
Try games like Skyrim, Kingdoms of Amular: Reckonging, Torchlight 2, Oblivion, The Fable Series... etc. Those are your kind of games my friend.. and theres nothing wrong with that.
Imo, very little in an mmo should be easy to Solo.
I think its fair for someone to want to play an MMO from start to finish solo, but to obtain all items as well? That's a bit rediculous. Just like in real life, there are some things you can't do on your own. It would defy the whole purpose of the MMO. Im with and I think those games are excellent recommendations. Though I hated Kingdoms of Amular as it was an SP game with MMO styled quests in what I personally felt was a dead world.
Invalid argument. OP definately not need to play RPG, that is pure bollocks. It is like saying you should go play Monopoly cause that can't be played alone just because you want to shove your playstyle upon others. I see no problem at all having all content soloable with a toon which were properly setup and/or developed. There are plenty of aspects in the MMORPG acronym which implies there should be enough to do for those desperately needing others to "do" something with; have you all forgot the R that stands for Roleplaying?? It is just as lame to force people to Roleplay as it is to force people into groups.
Me for example, would like to use the tradeskills and Auction Houses to interact with others, as well as fighting over PvP goals instead of lame grouping with fantatical fanbois. No need to have content which forces people to group to have plenty of things to enjoy in a good MMO. Heck, I like them MMOFPS too, cause they are so easy and quick to get into; unlike many MMO's today which are a pain cause you need both guild and big teams to get anywhere. I totally disagree with anyone who says that "a group should be needed for anything" like you. That would be an epic fail of a game release today.
I am not opposed to a fully soloable MMO being made, but I will admit it wouldn't appeal to me too much. I would probably give it a chance though as I try as many MMO's as I can that appear to be different.
Even though you could get all the best stuff in UO solo, you would miss out on some content as some areas were just so crazy hard to go solo that you'd probably never see them! So maybe thats a way that the OP and others could both have their way, if both HAD to have their way together.
Again, I love to primarily solo in MMO's, and it may seem like I am contradicting myself, but I just think gamers are only looking at the way games are made now a days, and its hard to imagine a game like WoW that is pure solo. Sounds like it would have to be a game that isn't based upon raiding. And of course, there is always room for more MMO's as the market is already proving right now.
I think you're taking what the OP is saying out of proportion. I believe what he is saying is, why not just go full single player although you would still have social aspects. But to put it in a different way take FF11 for instance. When that game came out you had to group for practically everything. I don't think that is the case any longer. I've been wondering this for awhile myself. Why not just make it grouping again or is this genre trying to do a balancing act because if so its kind of weird. Personally I don't agree to the tune that it should be full single player but I see his point on how odd it is to run from 1-80 on a toon only to then have to group up. Why then have the leveling process if the end game is practially all about grouping in higher level content.
Let us take it one step forward and say this. High level people should have a reason to go back to the lower level zones. Who knows random bosses, random spawning dungeons or something. A mixture of epic loot and also skins, mounts, titles, companion pets, and pet skins being the things that dropped. That way perhaps we could begin to solve the problem of a game getting years tacked on to it only to have the lower level zones practically empty and the newer players not wanting to join the game from fear of not having anyone to do the content with.
Perhaps get rid of quests or something. I'm not sure what you could put in place of it because you really do need that carrot on a stick to keep people plugging along. Also perhaps two experience bars kinda of like what Rift is doing with planar and regular experience. Its like a mini carrot you know the little baby carrots that taste good with ranch dressing...lol.
So in short perhaps after thought I owe you an apology and thusly say, I agree partly with the both of you because both parts have merit and both so desperately need to be addressed.
Honestly there should be a way to get the raid gear and not raid. Perhaps say change it to a different gear name. Nothing should be achieved without hard work, at say the same pace as a raider with a fail ration thrown in there as well. Raiding is fun and I love it, but it does seem sad to only have a handful of people see that content. In Rift they have chronicles which I enjoy because it at least gives you a view of the raid dungeons. Granted I think raiding should stay but there should be an advancement in raiding as the form is just to rigid now. It should not be easy at all quite possibly a solo boss that learns from the player and gets tougher as you go along or something like "Mat (I think that was his name) from FF11 who was a dirty old man who you had to defeat in order to get your uber skill. So you had to pack potions and strategy and hope that he didn't do a certain combination or you were screwed.
I choose my words carefully man, as I said "very little" should be solo-able.. So why you take such a direct stance against my opinion I dont know.. but either way. I agree it's nice to be able to do your own thing in your favorite game from time to time.. but if the whole game is entirely soloable you may as well play any offline single player Rpg.. no? Why make an MMO that allows that kind of play.. it would have the worst community of all time..
I find that players always complain about something.. you make a game solo-friendly and its fail community.. you make a game require grouping to often and its lame cuz you cant solo anything. You make a game that lies somewhere in the middle, which most mmo's do, and you get agruements on both sides.. All in all, gamers are immpossible to please, and with that Im out. Enjoy the discussion.