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MMO's are no longer "Worlds"

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  • xeniarxeniar Posts: 805Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Cuathon
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Cuathon
     

    Its not as profitable.

    Not as profitable sure. But still profitable. It certainly wouldnt bomb as hard as SWTOR.

    Why make less money when you can make more money?

    oh we can clearly see them making more money with the latest MMO's..?

    what we are trying to say is why make a game to attract millions wich is not of a good enough quality to suport said millions. in the long run the game will take so much time and money to develop evrything for evreyone of a bad to mediocre quality and people will move on in an instant resulting in a very minor profit.

    Instead they could make a good/ near perfect quality game for a smaller targeted audience, wich will have a greater longlivity = more money or atleast a  stable game (hello EVE online)

  • FearumFearum Cinnaminson, NJPosts: 1,166Member Uncommon
    Any game can make mobs kill you in 3 hits and have a million hit points that it take 5 people to take down, does that make the game hard?
  • CuathonCuathon University City, NYPosts: 2,211Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Cuathon
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Cuathon
     

    Its not as profitable.

    Not as profitable sure. But still profitable. It certainly wouldnt bomb as hard as SWTOR.

    Why make less money when you can make more money?

    Or you could make 5-6 targetted games for niche parts of the player base for the same amount of money and ignore the marketing campaign saving a hundred million in advertising because niche players find and play niche games. Further they accept inferior graphics because gameplay is king and you save on the art budget. Even further they are more dedicated to their games and stay longer and pay more.

     

    Just because someone owns a company doesn't mean they understand people or capitalism. Before we had a dozen 100mil+ AAA free to play games out trying to make the next WoW made sense but now the rich assholes need to grow a set and dive into a new strategy.

  • VendettaDFAVendettaDFA Pleasant Hill, MOPosts: 72Member
    Originally posted by jpnz
    Originally posted by VendettaDFA
     

    Yes it is his call as to what his idea of the golden age of gaming is. I tend to agree with the OP more than the modern view of the current MMO ... which is an on-rails 3 week to cap experience, as being a proper MMO.  Modern MMO's are not worlds when no interaction is needed. It's thousands of single player games on a server.This is no MMO to me.  Its gaming built on the "easy button" made to give modern gamers what the developers have taught you to believe. 80 hours of graphical eye-candy to get to level 80, because more level-ups obviously means the game is bigger, and endgame content consisting of the same 4 dungeon runs over and over for drops and PvP matches because thats what you consider entertainment. I certainly don't consider this the golden age of gaming. What you have now is exactly what you were taught to accept by the game makers. Disposable games to take the disposable income of disposable players, and each time you buy the next one you are putting your money where their mouth is.

    Yes cause speaking on behalf of me is always a good debating tactic. ROFL. 

    I wasn't taught to accept anything as I always treated video games as disposable entertainment products. I'm pretty sure the mainstream does as well.

    I buy / sub a game with my friends or those I know from the SA community and play. Finish / get bored and move on to the next game.

    My playstyle and thinking is the majority so that's where the $$$ is.

    It might not be your playstyle or thinking but that's irrelevent. Free-market is working as intended.

    On behalf of you? hardly.

    There are 6 pages of this thread as evidence that you are not the majority, only that you are arrogant in thinking you are. You have an opinion that is no more or less relevent than anyone elses - /discussion over.

  • BanaghranBanaghran HuisoPosts: 869Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Loss? We gain an immense amont of gameplay. Now we have MOBA, lobby style MMO, arena pvp .. none of these styles are available in the beginning. Choices are good. Rejoice!

     

    Many of the things we hail as a revolution these days we had back in the 90's and 00's, sure not as fleshed out as they are now, but i dont see the fact that those playstyles suddenly came to your attention as a vindication for the loss of any particular playstyle.

    Would you, if the tables were turned?

    Flame on!

    :)

  • shawn01shawn01 nashua, NHPosts: 153Member Common
    I predict that the next great MMO will not be a WoW clone.
  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member
    Originally posted by VendettaDFA
    Originally posted by jpnz
     

    Yes cause speaking on behalf of me is always a good debating tactic. ROFL. 

    I wasn't taught to accept anything as I always treated video games as disposable entertainment products. I'm pretty sure the mainstream does as well.

    I buy / sub a game with my friends or those I know from the SA community and play. Finish / get bored and move on to the next game.

    My playstyle and thinking is the majority so that's where the $$$ is.

    It might not be your playstyle or thinking but that's irrelevent. Free-market is working as intended.

    On behalf of you? hardly.

    There are 6 pages of this thread as evidence that you are not the majority, only that you are arrogant in thinking you are. You have an opinion that is no more or less relevent than anyone elses - /discussion over.

    I was talking about actual real-life where sub numbers and $$$ are measured, reported and audited; as in FACTS.

    Free-market has been saying one thing for the past 7 years; 'make WoW clones!'.

    Whether you think I'm arrogant in thinking 'Facts are facts' doesn't change that.

     

    Btw, how does saying 'These are the facts' come through as arrogant?

    'It is a fact that the sky is blue' - that is arrogant? LOLWUT?

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by Cuathon
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Cuathon
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Cuathon
     

    Its not as profitable.

    Not as profitable sure. But still profitable. It certainly wouldnt bomb as hard as SWTOR.

    Why make less money when you can make more money?

    Or you could make 5-6 targetted games for niche parts of the player base for the same amount of money and ignore the marketing campaign saving a hundred million in advertising because niche players find and play niche games. Further they accept inferior graphics because gameplay is king and you save on the art budget. Even further they are more dedicated to their games and stay longer and pay more.

     

    Just because someone owns a company doesn't mean they understand people or capitalism. Before we had a dozen 100mil+ AAA free to play games out trying to make the next WoW made sense but now the rich assholes need to grow a set and dive into a new strategy.

    I get the strong feeling you are not basing your arguments on reality. Hundred million in advertising... Yeah right.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • xeniarxeniar Posts: 805Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jpnz
    Originally posted by VendettaDFA
    Originally posted by jpnz
     

    Yes cause speaking on behalf of me is always a good debating tactic. ROFL. 

    I wasn't taught to accept anything as I always treated video games as disposable entertainment products. I'm pretty sure the mainstream does as well.

    I buy / sub a game with my friends or those I know from the SA community and play. Finish / get bored and move on to the next game.

    My playstyle and thinking is the majority so that's where the $$$ is.

    It might not be your playstyle or thinking but that's irrelevent. Free-market is working as intended.

    On behalf of you? hardly.

    There are 6 pages of this thread as evidence that you are not the majority, only that you are arrogant in thinking you are. You have an opinion that is no more or less relevent than anyone elses - /discussion over.

    I was talking about actual real-life where sub numbers and $$$ are measured, reported and audited; as in FACTS.

    Free-market has been saying one thing for the past 7 years; 'make WoW clones!'.

    Whether you think I'm arrogant in thinking 'Facts are facts' doesn't change that.

     

    Btw, how does saying 'These are the facts' come through as arrogant?

    'It is a fact that the sky is blue' - that is arrogant? LOLWUT?

    Where are you comming up with these so called facts?

    WOW has been succesfull yes for 8 years i don't see any of these Wow clones as being succesfull. alot have either shut down or are in a very shaky situation. how do you call that being succesfull? It does not say Make Wow clones anymore. it says oke WoW does great but the clones are failing we need a new method. that is what the free market is saying. the Suits are just too slow to realise it.

     

    and again targeting a smaller audience with a very good game will bring in more money then going for those millions of people with a half assed game because it needs so many features.

  • grimgryphongrimgryphon Pacific Northwest, WAPosts: 682Member
    They were never worlds. They are imaginary virtual simulated environments.

    Optional PvP = No PvP
  • CuathonCuathon University City, NYPosts: 2,211Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Cuathon
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Cuathon
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Cuathon
     

    Its not as profitable.

    Not as profitable sure. But still profitable. It certainly wouldnt bomb as hard as SWTOR.

    Why make less money when you can make more money?

    Or you could make 5-6 targetted games for niche parts of the player base for the same amount of money and ignore the marketing campaign saving a hundred million in advertising because niche players find and play niche games. Further they accept inferior graphics because gameplay is king and you save on the art budget. Even further they are more dedicated to their games and stay longer and pay more.

     

    Just because someone owns a company doesn't mean they understand people or capitalism. Before we had a dozen 100mil+ AAA free to play games out trying to make the next WoW made sense but now the rich assholes need to grow a set and dive into a new strategy.

    I get the strong feeling you are not basing your arguments on reality. Hundred million in advertising... Yeah right.

    It might be more like 50 or 60 million. W/e. The point still stands.

  • pmilespmiles Federal Way, WAPosts: 383Member

    I remember play MUDDs back in the early 90's... players changed the worlds... look a rat... easy kill.  Kill the rat and loot the one copper.  You run off and you slowly start dying?  Huh?  You check your inventory... you are carrying the plague.  You try to drop it but you can't.  You drink and eat like mad... still dying.  Eventually you die.  Someone comes along and loots your corpse.  Now they have the plague.  Was awesome and totally unpredictable because the players were forever changing the game.   Next day a cute little fuzzy rabit level 1 turns into a level 90 monster when attacked.  You get owned.  That was great fun.  MMOs today are totally predictable/replicatable.  You change the boss fights every single lockout and you will have improved the game ten-fold.  Instead they just make it accessible to all.  Everyone will get everything... eventually. 

     

    Playing an old FPS right now... good 12 years old.  Still as fun as it was 12 years ago because it was simply about instant action... which is all I ever wanted in a game.  MMOs don't deliver anymore.  WoW is the WORST example of an MMO there is.  The very template of what has totally gone wrong.  11 million players are wrong.  There are more people in the world than 11 million... that number is tiny... they don't speak for the majority.  They speak only for the minority.  Those that are wrong.

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member
    Originally posted by xeniar
     

    Where are you comming up with these so called facts?

    WOW has been succesfull yes for 8 years i don't see any of these Wow clones as being succesfull. alot have either shut down or are in a very shaky situation. how do you call that being succesfull? It does not say Make Wow clones anymore. it says oke WoW does great but the clones are failing we need a new method. that is what the free market is saying. the Suits are just too slow to realise it.

     

    and again targeting a smaller audience with a very good game will bring in more money then going for those millions of people with a half assed game because it needs so many features.

    Take a look at the game list on this very website and count how many MMOs there are.

    Then look up the numbers for them and see if 'wow clones' make more $$$ than non-wow-clones.

    This isn't rocket science.

     

    I'll help you out.

    LoTRO and DDO had 300k-400k before F2P and doubled their revenue afterwards.

    Aion had 3M but went F2P so numbers are a bit hard to gauge right now.

    SWTOR has 500k-1M.

    I like to deal with facts and numbers so that's what I base my posts on.

    These are the latest factual numbers we have, not the 'my guild died in MMO X so clearly no one plays MMO X'.

    Like I constantly say, just because you don't like those facts doesn't make them false.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Cuathon
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Cuathon

    ATITD, EvE and Wurm are all like this. Although ATITD lacks combat.

    Its clearly possible for an individual or a small company to make a successful cooperation based MMO that makes a profit. So why can't a major company who has access to marketing, superior art assets and dozens of industry veterans?

    Its not as profitable.

    Not as profitable sure. But still profitable. It certainly wouldnt bomb as hard as SWTOR.

    wow wow wow .. cherry picking to make your point, uh? Well, how about shadow bane .. that closed down .. didn't it? SWTOR is at least still in business.

    How about cherry pick some more and compare WOW to Eve?

    Or Maple Story to Darkfall?

    How about LOL? It is probably more profitbale than all virtual world MMORPGs added together.

  • Beatnik59Beatnik59 Chicago, ILPosts: 2,238Member Uncommon

    I came into MMOs in the early 2000s, because action/adventure titles were just so bad.

    These days, the very same things that made those old action/adventure titles so bad are what MMOs are all about.

    __________________________
    "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
    --Arcken

    "...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
    --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.

    "It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
    --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE

  • CecropiaCecropia Posts: 3,472Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Cuathon

    Not as profitable sure. But still profitable. It certainly wouldnt bomb as hard as SWTOR.

    wow wow wow .. cherry picking to make your point, uh? Well, how about shadow bane .. that closed down .. didn't it? SWTOR is at least still in business.

    How about cherry pick some more and compare WOW to Eve?

    Or Maple Story to Darkfall?

    How about LOL? It is probably more profitbale than all virtual world MMORPGs added together.

    Since we're talking about non MMOs yet again, how about DayZ? The mod that a million people picked up in 4 months. The one with huge open world servers, the one with full loot FFA PVP, and last but not least, the one with permadeath. Shocking stuff, eh? Wait 'till they actually have a standalone game. /shivers

    Don't even bring EVE into this. It's one of the only MMOs to continually grow (and for almost a decade now). You do not help your case when you bring that gem into the picture.

    You're riding a fad wave and you don't even know it. Surf's up, dude ;)

     

     

    "Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  • DrunkWolfDrunkWolf Posts: 1,180Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by XAPGames

    I call it "Lowest Common Denominator Game Design".  Maximize profits by reaching the largest number of people by providing a gameplay experience based on the desire of that group.

     

    To my understanding, these players don't want worlds.  They want interactive entertainment.  That's how they see gaming.

     

    Evolution or decay?  That depends on if you like the direction taken, or not.

     

    This pretty much sums it up. and its not going to change because we the players keep buying the same old crap they keep pumping out.

  • EhliyaEhliya Washington, DCPosts: 199Member
    Originally posted by DrunkWolf
    Originally posted by XAPGames

    I call it "Lowest Common Denominator Game Design".  Maximize profits by reaching the largest number of people by providing a gameplay experience based on the desire of that group.

     

    To my understanding, these players don't want worlds.  They want interactive entertainment.  That's how they see gaming.

     

    Evolution or decay?  That depends on if you like the direction taken, or not.

     

    This pretty much sums it up. and its not going to change because we the players keep buying the same old crap they keep pumping out.

     

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member
    Originally posted by Cecropia
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Cuathon

    Not as profitable sure. But still profitable. It certainly wouldnt bomb as hard as SWTOR.

    wow wow wow .. cherry picking to make your point, uh? Well, how about shadow bane .. that closed down .. didn't it? SWTOR is at least still in business.

    How about cherry pick some more and compare WOW to Eve?

    Or Maple Story to Darkfall?

    How about LOL? It is probably more profitbale than all virtual world MMORPGs added together.

    Since we're talking about non MMOs yet again, how about DayZ? The mod that a million people picked up in 4 months. The one with huge open world servers, the one with full loot FFA PVP, and last but not least, the one with permadeath. Shocking stuff, eh? Wait 'till they actually have a standalone game. /shivers

    Don't even bring EVE into this. It's one of the only MMOs to continually grow (and for almost a decade now). You do not help your case when you bring that gem into the picture.

    You're riding a fad wave and you don't even know it. Surf's up, dude ;)

     

    So 7+ years is a 'fad' now?

    Guess all these smartphones are a fad.

    Guess all these social media (twitter / facebook) are a fad.

    I don't think a 'fad' means what you think it means.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 20,008Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Cuathon
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Cuathon
     

    Its not as profitable.

    Not as profitable sure. But still profitable. It certainly wouldnt bomb as hard as SWTOR.

    Why make less money when you can make more money?

    Strangely enough, there's quite a few people (and even companies) that undertake endevours not because they are the most profitable way to go.  We usually give kudos to such organizations, and decry the "greed mongers" who are in it strictly for profit.  ( I work for a firm many consider to be a greed monger, if not the devil incarnate) image

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • CuathonCuathon University City, NYPosts: 2,211Member
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Cuathon
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Cuathon
     

    Its not as profitable.

    Not as profitable sure. But still profitable. It certainly wouldnt bomb as hard as SWTOR.

    Why make less money when you can make more money?

    Strangely enough, there's quite a few people (and even companies) that undertake endevours not because they are the most profitable way to go.  We usually give kudos to such organizations, and decry the "greed mongers" who are in it strictly for profit.  ( I work for a firm many consider to be a greed monger, if not the devil incarnate) image

    I spend from 4 to 16 hours every day programming open source RTS game engines. I could make more money making mobile games for the common sheep casual gamer but those games and the people who play them are dumb.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Cuathon
    Originally posted by Quirhid Originally posted by Cuathon ATITD, EvE and Wurm are all like this. Although ATITD lacks combat. Its clearly possible for an individual or a small company to make a successful cooperation based MMO that makes a profit. So why can't a major company who has access to marketing, superior art assets and dozens of industry veterans?
    Its not as profitable.
    Not as profitable sure. But still profitable. It certainly wouldnt bomb as hard as SWTOR.


    That is very debatable.

    Games like ATiTD, Eve and Wurm don't require a higher intelligence, but they are probably going to attract people with a higher IQ. This is an assumption on my part, but I think it's valid. The higher the IQ of the people you are likely to attract, the smaller number of people you're likely to get*. If the available pool of people is smaller, you're going to get fewer people overall.

    A likely scenario (to me) is that Wurm is profitable at the scale it has been written. Increase the scale by upping the budget for the game to fifty million dollars and it would no longer be profitable. The mass market, people with IQs from 100 to 115 aren't going to be attracted to the game play, even with the phenomenal boost to the graphical quality.

    * If you divide people up into groups by intelligence, people with IQs below 85 are about 16% of the population, from 85 to 100 are 34%, from 100 to 115 are another 34% and people over an IQ of 115 are about 16% of the population. Your biggest audience is the "average" people between an IQ of 85 and 115.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member
    Originally posted by Cuathon
     

    I spend from 4 to 16 hours every day programming open source RTS game engines. I could make more money making mobile games for the common sheep casual gamer but those games and the people who play them are dumb.

    You are the first person I know that are 'making games' and say 'casual gamers are dumb'. 

    Everyone I meet in the gaming industry say they played 'casual games' while growing up and it was a great experience.

    I want to stress that most people working in the video game industry do not think 'casual gamers are dumb'.

    Then again, I am the hidden son of Sultan of Brunai so whatever I guess. ROFL.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • VendettaDFAVendettaDFA Pleasant Hill, MOPosts: 72Member
    Originally posted by jpnz
    Originally posted by Cuathon
     

    I spend from 4 to 16 hours every day programming open source RTS game engines. I could make more money making mobile games for the common sheep casual gamer but those games and the people who play them are dumb.

    You are the first person I know that are 'making games' and say 'casual gamers are dumb'. 

    Everyone I meet in the gaming industry say they played 'casual games' while growing up and it was a great experience.

    I want to stress that most people working in the video game industry do not think 'casual gamers are dumb'.

    Then again, I am the hidden son of Sultan of Brunai so whatever I guess. ROFL.

    Amazing..... I never knew the hub of the gaming industry revolved around Auckland New Zealand. I think the one-upsmanship just took a large step into the land of the absurd.

    You are again speaking for some large group of un-named people in an effort to bolster your position. In reality you are talking out of your hat and expecting the forum users to just accept it. 

    Actions speak louder than words and many people do take note of things the video game industry has done in the persuit of a dollar- Diablo 3's RMAH , Pay to win games, Midstream changes in a manifesto, etc. Its all a level of perspective, you can view it as free enterprise, but others may view it as game makers dismissing gamers as gullible.  Seriously though express your opinion but dont think the rest of us are buying in to your attempt to be more than the one person you are. "They" speak for themselves.

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member
    Originally posted by VendettaDFA
     

    Amazing..... I never knew the hub of the gaming industry revolved around Auckland New Zealand. I think the one-upsmanship just took a large step into the land of the absurd.

    You are again speaking for some large group of un-named people in an effort to bolster your position. In reality you are talking out of your hat and expecting the forum users to just accept it. 

    Actions speak louder than words and many people do take note of things the video game industry has done in the persuit of a dollar- Diablo 3's RMAH , Pay to win games, Midstream changes in a manifesto, etc. Its all a level of perspective, you can view it as free enterprise, but others may view it as game makers dismissing gamers as gullible.  Seriously though express your opinion but dont think the rest of us are buying in to your attempt to be more than the one person you are. "They" speak for themselves.

    Oh My! Lets dissect this post and see how far down the rabbit hole we can go!

    I never knew that you have to live in SF / USA to talk about these things.

    If you want proof that 'game makers don't think casual gamers are dumb' then the recent GDC / PAX panels had very notable people talk about it.

    It is nice to be validated though since personal attacks are used if the poster doesn't know how to respond with the subject matter. Thanks!

     

    D3 RMAH continues to rake in $$$ for Acti-Blizz. As a big believer in the free-market / capitalism, I'd say gamers are speaking quite loud and clear. Whether you approve it or not is irrelevent.

    What people say and what they buy are two different things. This is marketing 101 stuff jeez.

    It is really interesting that my post that rejects 'game makers think casual gamers are dumb' is twisted by you to say 'game makers think gamers are gullible'.

    I called you out on your posts when you posted factually false posts. I get that you are upset, but trying to put words into someone's mouth to get back at them doesn't normally work. LOL.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

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