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How much realism do you want in your virtual world MMORPGs?

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  • birdycephonbirdycephon Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 1,314Member

    I want ultra-realism in my MMO.

    I want requirement on food and water. I want clothing sizes on armors. I want sleep. I want fatigue. I want desease. I want ...

    You get the idea.

    Ofcourse, an MMO like that would probbaly fail because of ADD mentality of the 99% of the gamers.

     

    @chelan - Love your avatar. Great show.

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 20,008Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Personally i think fun is paramount. Realism, at most, only add some atmosphere.

    So the design should ALWAYS start from a gameplay experince point of view. If possible, add some realism for atmostphere, but never start from being real.

    Games are NOT about being real. Nothing is real. We can't throw fireballs, we can't run on walls, we can't teleport. It is about fulfilling those fantasies of being powerful, killing monsters, finishing dangerous missions.

    So anything that can make the game experience better is a good thing in my book: LFD, LFR, cross realm grouping, fun combat, instances.

    Don't ask me to wait 20 min becuase it is real. Donn't ask me to talk to 20 people before i can make a trade because it is real like that in the 5th century.

    Generally speaking, these things run contrary to the concept of more realistic virtual worlds, and tend to make them less so.

    Yes. And i state very clearly that i don't care for "realistic" virtual worlds, if it is not a fun game.

    K> My OP was about what mechanics make a MMORPG more realistic for you, not whether or not you cared for realism in your games.

    Arguably they make the game more fun for some people, perhaps many, but there's no denying they decrease the level of realism or how much a title might better simulate a virtual world.

    Preciesly. I am one of that many. And once again, no one is arguing they don't decrease realism. Just that i don't care for realism. K> Again, what you care for wasn't the point of the OP, but more about what level of realism you expect to make them realistic.

    Of course these games are all not real, but there can be varying levels of realism depending on the specific game mechanics.

    "can" != "should" K> If the premise is to make a more realistic world, then should increasingly factors in to the design.

    Making you travel 20 minutes for no reason makes no sense of course, but if by doing so permits other players the opportunity to ambush you and take your stuff, then perhaps it is a viable mechanic. (and of course, you have the opportunity/responsbility to counter their efforts to do so) 

    NOt care for that kind of gameplay. In fact,

    1) open world pvp is not popular. K> Not the topic of this thread, but merely a convenient example of why it might be useful, I could have come up with others.

    2) even with open world pvp, a boat ride of 20 min (like that in EQ) has no gameplay except staring at the screen. K> Oh no, it offers you a chance to socialize with your fellow boatmates, even WOW had this at launch and I actually had quite a few conversations with people while on the boat...and got ganked by horde on occasion as well.  Some folks feel socialization qualities as part of the game play, but I realize you don't.

    3) That is just an example. Don't put non-fun gameplay in my GAME just because it sounds real. K> We weren't really talking about your games, we were talking about more realistic virtual world MMORPG's.  But feel free to start your own thread on the topic. image

     

     

     

     

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • defector1968defector1968 Nar ShaddaaPosts: 393Member Common
    Originally posted by birdycephon

    I want ultra-realism in my MMO.

    I want requirement on food and water. I want clothing sizes on armors. I want sleep. I want fatigue. I want desease. I want ...

    You get the idea.

    Ofcourse, an MMO like that would probbaly fail because of ADD mentality of the 99% of the gamers.

     

    @chelan - Love your avatar. Great show.

    and of course u want 1 time died always dead and u cant play the game never egain with that account

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Kyleran

    3) That is just an example. Don't put non-fun gameplay in my GAME just because it sounds real. K> We weren't really talking about your games, we were talking about more realistic virtual world MMORPG's.  But feel free to start your own thread on the topic. image

     

     

     

     

     

    We are talking about the question "How much realism do you want" .. the answer is "none if it interfere with my fun".

  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,478Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kyleran

    We see a lot of threads and posts decrying the loss of "virtual worlds" and I'm certainly one of the guilty parties in this regards, but I got to thinking, just what makes a MMORPG more realistic yet at the same time remain fun?

    For example, I favor mechanics such as local markets as opposed to global ones, but I don't mind having auction houses while others probably prefer players run the stores or trade themselves.

    I liked it better when MMORPG's used food/drink to restore health and stamina (and somewhat influence the pacing of the gameplay), but I wouldn't want to have to eat or drink regularly to avoid starving to death as was the case in Xyson. (or Ultima VI for those who remember that one)

    Travel times....mixed feelings about this.  They sort of work at a strategic level in games like EVE, where you basically have to provide a means for players to intercept each other and have them part of the strategic equation when chosing combat/logistics option. 

    But that doesn't mean I didn't love Blessed Teleport Scrolls in my first MMORPG Lineage 1 where a player could set up to 30 waypoints in the game and use these scrolls to instantly teleport to them.  (You had to walk to the area the first time to expose the map however).

    They weren't free, in fact, a fair share of every players game income/time was spent either farming or buying BTS's.  I got rich selling them as I farmed them with my Bugbear Mage in the ant caves.

    And lets face it, I would not care for a MMORPG that made my avatar have to "relieve" himself on a regular basis, sometimes there's just such a thing as too much realism. image

    So that's the question, what sorts of mechanics do you prefer that makes one MMORPG more of a virtual world than another?

     

     Limits on carrying items due to size and weight.   We carry too much in these games. 

    Add in wagons and ships for higher capacity/weight shipment.

    local markets.

    Changes quests:  Have jobs, tasks, bounties (kill rats for cash), missions, etc as appropriate to the organization/group presenting them. 

    Add mysteries, which are QUESTIONS, rather than quests, which can be answered.  You might find bits and pieces of information spread all over the world in books, painting, receipts and such.

     

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by waynejr2
     

     Limits on carrying items due to size and weight.   We carry too much in these games. 

    If you go by REAL weight and size, no one can carry more than 1 or 2 weapons. It won't be very fun to go to town to sell every 2 min, or you want to do away with loot?

    Realism != more fun.

    Add in wagons and ships for higher capacity/weight shipment.

    Really? What is next . you need to play a sailor and pull on ropes all day?

    local markets.

    Inefficient. It has been tried. AH took over. That tells you something. And AH is pretty real. Look at ebay, and NYSE.

    Changes quests:  Have jobs, tasks, bounties (kill rats for cash), missions, etc as appropriate to the organization/group presenting them. 

    Quests are just excuse to kill stuff. Dress it up a bit but don't detract from combat fun.

    Add mysteries, which are QUESTIONS, rather than quests, which can be answered.  You might find bits and pieces of information spread all over the world in books, painting, receipts and such.

     Now this is a new idea. May be playing CLUE in a MMO is fun for some people.

     

     

  • CuathonCuathon University City, NYPosts: 2,211Member
    Originally posted by Kyleran

    Don't waste time arguing with Narius.

    We all know what Narius likes as he tells us in every thread ever. He never changes his mind. If he posts one and basically says:

    I'm Narius

    Then we all know exactly what that means and that its not going to change.

    This derails every thread that ever has any relation to anything but a themepark and he insists on posting in all of them.

    I won't make another post about this, but I feel like you should know better by now, you've been here at least as long as I have.

  • RossbossRossboss Runes of Magic, TXPosts: 240Member
    The only realism I want to recognize in any MMORPG is the players being real people. I don't want to have to care about feeding a pet, mount, myself unless it is for unrealistic ideas or purposes like gaining health/mana/happiness. I want to be able to carry 50 weapons on me into combat just because I forgot to dump them in my massively large vault. Teleportation is a must, I don't have time to watch the scenery go by as I fly around. I want to be able to have a quiver filled with over 100 arrows in it and be able to jump around like a rabbit constantly. I want to have a choice for PvP interaction. Selling things on a marketplace or auction house should be universal marketing. Whispering people in different areas and continents is a must.

    I played WoW up until WotLK, played RoM for 2 years and now Rift.
    I am F2P player. I support games when I feel they deserve my money and I want the items enough.
    I don't troll, and I don't take kindly to trolls.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Rossboss
    The only realism I want to recognize in any MMORPG is the players being real people. I don't want to have to care about feeding a pet, mount, myself unless it is for unrealistic ideas or purposes like gaining health/mana/happiness. I want to be able to carry 50 weapons on me into combat just because I forgot to dump them in my massively large vault. Teleportation is a must, I don't have time to watch the scenery go by as I fly around. I want to be able to have a quiver filled with over 100 arrows in it and be able to jump around like a rabbit constantly. I want to have a choice for PvP interaction. Selling things on a marketplace or auction house should be universal marketing. Whispering people in different areas and continents is a must.

    This ....

    There is a reason why these are more or less standard features in games. And that it adds to the fun.

    Do you really want to carry only 15 arrows, and worry about ammunition all the time?

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Cuathon

    This derails every thread that ever has any relation to anything but a themepark and he insists on posting in all of them.

     

    By "derail" you mean providing a different perspsective, and not blindly worship the old, and repeated endlessly "i want a virtual world sandbox" rant here?

    I am more than glad to oblige. Diversity and different perspectives is a beautiful thing.

  • RossbossRossboss Runes of Magic, TXPosts: 240Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Rossboss
    The only realism I want to recognize in any MMORPG is the players being real people. I don't want to have to care about feeding a pet, mount, myself unless it is for unrealistic ideas or purposes like gaining health/mana/happiness. I want to be able to carry 50 weapons on me into combat just because I forgot to dump them in my massively large vault. Teleportation is a must, I don't have time to watch the scenery go by as I fly around. I want to be able to have a quiver filled with over 100 arrows in it and be able to jump around like a rabbit constantly. I want to have a choice for PvP interaction. Selling things on a marketplace or auction house should be universal marketing. Whispering people in different areas and continents is a must.

    This ....

    There is a reason why these are more or less standard features in games. And that it adds to the fun.

    Do you really want to carry only 15 arrows, and worry about ammunition all the time?

    Oh I forgot to mention a few more things. I want my resource pool/health to automatically regenerate when I'm not in combat. Every NPC enemy needs to be short sighted as much as I am (5 ft before things become a blur) and give up on chasing me after a set distance. Bosses will be stronger than their thug subordinates. Instanced areas should reset either immediately or within a set amount of time less than a month. I should be allowed to move in mid air and shoot my heatseeking magic at things. Visual Effects should be something that I can recognize but nothing that you would see in real life.

    I played WoW up until WotLK, played RoM for 2 years and now Rift.
    I am F2P player. I support games when I feel they deserve my money and I want the items enough.
    I don't troll, and I don't take kindly to trolls.

  • CuathonCuathon University City, NYPosts: 2,211Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Cuathon

    This derails every thread that ever has any relation to anything but a themepark and he insists on posting in all of them.

     

    By "derail" you mean providing a different perspsective, and not blindly worship the old, and repeated endlessly "i want a virtual world sandbox" rant here?

    I am more than glad to oblige. Diversity and different perspectives is a beautiful thing.

    I mean forcing the thread into the same boring argument over and over and never offering anything new to discuss.

    Do you honestly think that given the games that are produced by the industry that it is necessary to defend a point of view that is already so powerful that it controls all game production?

    Your perspective is not DIFFERENT. Its the dominant perspective in the whole entire industry post WoW and everyone here is perfectly aware of your position and has been aware of it each of the previous 40 times you derailed a thread.

    You always act like you are the last bastion of defense for an oppressed minority perspective when that is a 180 from the actual reality of the world.

    How many stalwart defenders do themepark games need when every major MMO for the past 8-9 YEARS has been a themepark?

    Maybe if you at least had a new argument or two in each thread it wouldn't be borderline trolling but you dont.

    "I care about fun."

    "I only care about fun."

    "The most important thing is fun."

    Okay we get it, you like to have fun. Stop repeating it over and over.

    "The things I find fun don't involve realism."

    "I don't care about realism."

    "WoW is not realistic but its really fun."

    Okay we get it, you don't care about realism. Stop repeating it over and over.

     

    Do you understand the point or should I borrow your strategy of repeating the same thing over and over ad nauseum because its the only thing you understand.

    As I said before your position has no need of being defended. The whole industry is devoted to Narius approved video games. Do you still need to repeat your opinion? Make a thread and just quadruple post "I only care about fun" over and over. Problem solved.

    Its not necessary to post dozens of identical posts in every single thread that expresses an opinion that you disagree with.

    And your point is dumb anyways. We all care about fun. We just disagree on what is fun. No one is sitting around saying "What game design would be the most annoying frustrating least fun experience ever and how can I force Narius Seldon to play it?"

    I promise. No one does that.

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member

    "Realism" is such a funny word.  I feel like it's become shorthand for discussion of a particular set of features / interactions, a reactionary desire to return to something that has been widely changed ... but are any of those features really any more "real"? 

    Do our early experiences with an MMO create a default "reality" in our imginations and everything that we later encounter feels like some distortion of that?  I'm curious whether young gamers starting out from a different initial game experience form a very different default notion of what is "real" in a game.

  • birdycephonbirdycephon Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 1,314Member
    Originally posted by defector1968
    Originally posted by birdycephon

    I want ultra-realism in my MMO.

    I want requirement on food and water. I want clothing sizes on armors. I want sleep. I want fatigue. I want desease. I want ...

    You get the idea.

    Ofcourse, an MMO like that would probbaly fail because of ADD mentality of the 99% of the gamers.

     

    @chelan - Love your avatar. Great show.

    and of course u want 1 time died always dead and u cant play the game never egain with that account

    No, just have to re-roll the character.

    Btw, your grammar is terrible.

  • DrakynnDrakynn The Pas, MBPosts: 2,030Member

    I want only as much realism as is needed for the games mechanics and goals.Using a non MMORPG for an example I don't roll my eyes and whine a bout being able to falll 2 miles into a small pile of hay in Assassin's Creed but I would certainly not want to be able to fly like superman and kill my targets with my death ray but I would be fine with death rays and flying in another game.

    I guess what I'm saying is there is no right answer for this question becasue not every game or virtual world shoudl be built around the same design and gamepaly goals.

  • MaelwyddMaelwydd CrawleyPosts: 1,123Member

    Some things I would personally like in terms of realism...

     

    Food and drink - While I agree the requirement to eat and drink to stay alive is one not many want, I still think food and drink can serve a purpose. Sieges should require supplies, including food and drink. Starve out a keep, let the attacking army starve in winter (so they have to stop the siege rather then die of hunger), that sort of thing.

    Personally I would like to see food used in games with exploration to determine how much distance a person can explore. So if you are heading into the wilderness you better carry extra food or have good survival skills. If you run out of food you start to slow down. So on a full stomach you travel quickly, as you hunger you start to slow down and your ability to move further into the wilderness in reduced. Run out of food and to can only crawl along and can no longer move away from the last habitated area you were in. Most games don't even have food and drink as anything other then a sort of buff. there are many things they can do with a food and drink system.

    This leads to carry weight. I hate being able to carry endless shit in my bags. I want to have everything I carry have a use and a reason to carry it. Too many games don't have enough realism in this area and allow you to carry 20 suits of full plate armour and 20 great swords.

    This leads to what you carry and use affecting what you can do. It seems TESO is going a little in the right difection where wearing certain armour will give a bonus to certain skills and a negative to others. Wearing a full suit of armour should slow you down, make crossing a river dangerous but be great for protection. A robe should aloow quick movements but offer little protection from blade or arrow. A great sword should be slow but do lots of damage, a dagger quick but not as much. Weapons and armour should be situational and functional, not a sign of which raid you have done or what level you are.

    Loot drops should make sense. A bear shouldn't drop a suit of full plate but perhaps some meat, skin and bones. A ranger using a bow should drop a bow and arrows and some light armour, a knight some plate armour...you get the idea. Havfe loot tables sure...like the good old D&D started, but don't forget to give each type of enemy have their own loot table that makes sense.

    The world shouldn't have barriers unless the world has barriers. A mountain is fine as a barrier, if you don't have the skills to climb one, but an invisible wall or hard coded "you cannot pass this point" are not. TESO is doing this badly with enforced restrictions on where in the world you can go. Sure, make it dangerous to enter some parts of the world but give me the option if I want. Don't stick an invisible wall in the way and expect me to respect your design concept.

    Skills, abilities and PvP. A level 80 should not be able to go AFK and be invulnerable to a level 1. If the level 80 is stupid and doesn't protect themselves then they deserve to die. Skills should...take skill, not just pressing the button when the little light flashes. A game where what you do, when you do it, where you do it and to who rather then what level you are, how much you spent buying the character or how many raids you spent to get that phat loot. A sword is a sword, the player should decide who wins a fight, not how many levels above your opponent you are.

    I could go on.

    Simply put I want realism, a lot more then games have now, but rather then having a realism vs fun argument I would love a designer to actually think "how can we make this system be realistic while maintaining the fun part of the game". Integrate realism with how the game plays and what the point of the system is trying to achieve.

  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,926Member Uncommon

    I'm not sure realism is what I want.  I think it's more like detail.

     

    If I'm playing a mage from the Zimblowme tribe on planet AngaOngo, and I have a ton of complex spells in my spellbook, that's not realism, but rather detailed fantasy.  It's the opposite of "dumbed down".

     

    I like detail.  If it takes 15 components to make a clock, then it does.  I shouldn't be able to make one out of a piece of wood and a bar of copper and it should take longer than 2 seconds to produce.

     

    BTW: Lots of good comments in the thread.  Interesting read.


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
  • BurntvetBurntvet Baltimore, MDPosts: 2,946Member Uncommon

    Frankly, I'd like to see any decent virtual world, period.

    Considering what has come out over the last 8+ years has been overly linear, instanced themepark  or barely functioning indie games, anything approaching a relatively well-made, non-"combat only" virtual world would be most welcome.

    The specifics about realism are not so important as that.

    Don't need any more linear themeparks, don't want any more cheap crap indie games that over-promise and never deliver.

     

     

  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INPosts: 3,752Member Uncommon
        The less realism the better for me....I absolutely dislike having to eat or drink in any game (especially if you can die from not doing so)..... Also my avatar doesn't have to look like a photo shoot or anything like that....I know I am playing a game and I'm OK with that.
  • ObiClownobiObiClownobi CoruscantPosts: 186Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Kyleran

    3) That is just an example. Don't put non-fun gameplay in my GAME just because it sounds real. K> We weren't really talking about your games, we were talking about more realistic virtual world MMORPG's.  But feel free to start your own thread on the topic. image

     

     

     

     

     

    We are talking about the question "How much realism do you want" .. the answer is "none if it interfere with my fun".

    No, the question was "How much realism do you want in your virtual world MMORPGS", do you really think that people will be fooled by you cutting off the end of the title to justify your thread hijacking.

    image
    "It's a sandbox, if you are not willing to create a castle then all you have is sand" - jtcgs

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 20,008Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ObiClownobi

    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Kyleran

    3) That is just an example. Don't put non-fun gameplay in my GAME just because it sounds real. K> We weren't really talking about your games, we were talking about more realistic virtual world MMORPG's.  But feel free to start your own thread on the topic. image      

     

     

    We are talking about the question "How much realism do you want" .. the answer is "none if it interfere with my fun".

    No, the question was "How much realism do you want in your virtual world MMORPGS", do you really think that people will be fooled by you cutting off the end of the title to justify your thread hijacking.

     

    In all fairness my thread title doesn't really reflect the discussion presented in my OP, always a mistake as many people reply just off of the title and could have caused some confusion. But in this case he knows exactly what I meant and what he is doing. And as someone else mentioned, I should know better.

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • CuathonCuathon University City, NYPosts: 2,211Member
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by ObiClownobi
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Kyleran

    3) That is just an example. Don't put non-fun gameplay in my GAME just because it sounds real. K> We weren't really talking about your games, we were talking about more realistic virtual world MMORPG's.  But feel free to start your own thread on the topic. image

     

     

     

     

     

    We are talking about the question "How much realism do you want" .. the answer is "none if it interfere with my fun".

    No, the question was "How much realism do you want in your virtual world MMORPGS", do you really think that people will be fooled by you cutting off the end of the title to justify your thread hijacking.

     

    In all fairness my thread title doesn't really reflect the discussion presented in my OP, always a mistake as many people reply just off of the title and could have caused some confusion. But in this case he knows exactly what I meant and what he is doing. And as someone else mentioned, I should know better.

    I was really hypocritical though. After I said not to do it I then did it.

  • CastillleCastillle KhobarPosts: 2,703Member Uncommon

    I want it to be as realistic as it could be.  That means being forced to eat, sleep, rest, go to the potty, and need to go to the hospital when wounded by a significant amount.

    Oh and I shouldnt be able to fight if I sustain too much damage and must rest for weeks at the hospital. 

    ''/\/\'' Posted using Iphone bunni
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  • LadyEupheiLadyEuphei Indianapolis, INPosts: 223Member
    Enough to where it includes dismemberment? Wow that sounds super messed up said like that, but I love shooting a zombie and it's leg falls off. Guess im weird image

    image

  • LadyEupheiLadyEuphei Indianapolis, INPosts: 223Member
    Oh I also want house building and customization!

    image

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