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Originally posted by Ciano I'm probably thread number 1 million *snip*
I know that you're joking around about the 1 million part, but eventaually that whole "no market" argument is going to sound silly.
Originally posted by Tjed Originally posted by Ciano I'm probably thread number 1 million *snip*
If its any help I have counted 1147 threads related to this topic since I've been here. If you count long breaks and also posts instead of threads and also my not reading every thread its probably close to 1million posts. Or maybe only 500000. Point being its high enough.
Originally posted by CuathonThis may come as a shock to you but some of us are intellectually more capable than others. It doesn't mean we are more worthwhile as human beings, it just means what it says.<snip>
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by lizardbones Originally posted by Cuathon This may come as a shock to you but some of us are intellectually more capable than others. It doesn't mean we are more worthwhile as human beings, it just means what it says.
That depends. I mentioned strategy guides in my post. With the whole game solved by the smart people the less intelligent can copy paste builds and strategies and be masters because the content is static. Its less static but still viscuous in PvP.
What you say may be true for OGame but its not true for Warring Factions, if we want examples from the space browser strategy genre. Because within a genre you can design for intellect or you can design for revenue. Guess what the corporations who now control the game industry do?
Which is why with MMOs we need to evaluate based on temporal comparisons. As I said in my post, smart players achieve mastery FASTER, barring the use of a guide made by someone who has already solved the system.
Did you read past the first few paragraphs? I addressed all these concerns. I got a little off topic at the end though.
Smart players in EvE or ATITD or even a little in SWG could master the game more quickly than less intelligent players.
The whole point of my post is that most MMOs are not designed for the intellectual players.
Actually part of this discussion has reminded me of another issue. Games based on intellect can be solved too easily, but execution is relegated to individuals. That's another problem with designing for intelligence in mind.
An ideal game designed to appeal to intelligence would require in game computations and decisions which couldn't be outsourced to a guide like for instance raid strategies in Rift and WoW.
Of course normal people would resort to punching answers into Wolfram Alpha because smart people are constantly designing themselves out fo existence. Are we really that smart eh? I know, its an old joke, but still.
Originally posted by Cuathon Originally posted by lizardbones Originally posted by Cuathon This may come as a shock to you but some of us are intellectually more capable than others. It doesn't mean we are more worthwhile as human beings, it just means what it says.
Originally posted by lizardbones Originally posted by Cuathon Originally posted by lizardbones Originally posted by Cuathon This may come as a shock to you but some of us are intellectually more capable than others. It doesn't mean we are more worthwhile as human beings, it just means what it says.
I dunno, in games based on execution, with other intelligent players solving what to do, you can focus totally on the doing. Do the people you refer to not ever read internet guides? Do they join a game and make their builds and actions entirely on their own? I highly doubt this. That is my point, MMOs are not designed for intelligence based gameplay because it all gets outsourced to the internet. The individual only cares about executing a memorized list of actions.
That is my whole point, arguing that MMOs dont require intelligence is exactly what I'm saying. Its why the smarter players tend to be bored. Because the game is trivial to solve. Its weird to see you acting like we are on opposite sides when we are totally in agreement.
Originally posted by DMKano Many MMOs today are still worlds, in that they are large persistent worlds. Now just because they don't fit into OPs narrow definition of what an online world is just an opinion. It's fine to have an opinion, but mistaking an opinion for a fact is delusional.
Your one of those people that can't differentiate between colloquial and specialized uses arent you? A single word can have many different meanings.
In this case world refers to a dynamic game world whereas a themepark is a static game world. Players cannot effect the nature of the world.
In a dynamic player driven world players build cities or kill certain monsters permanently and many other things.
Did you notice that "Worlds" was in quotes? Seriously, some basic reading knowledge of terminology would do so much for you.
Originally posted by Cuathon Originally posted by lizardbones Originally posted by Cuathon Originally posted by lizardbones Originally posted by Cuathon This may come as a shock to you but some of us are intellectually more capable than others. It doesn't mean we are more worthwhile as human beings, it just means what it says.
Originally posted by lizardbones Originally posted by Cuathon Originally posted by lizardbones Originally posted by Cuathon Originally posted by lizardbones Originally posted by Cuathon This may come as a shock to you but some of us are intellectually more capable than others. It doesn't mean we are more worthwhile as human beings, it just means what it says.
Right. It wouldn't sell very well because most people aren't smart. That's the whole point of the lowest common denominator argument.
And when you don't make a lot of games of the same kind, you don't get a lot of high quality examples because you don't have the information to optimize fun. Which is a vicious cycle.
As for measures of intelligence. Playing basketball doesnt make a good measure for anything but basketball and being good at cooking doesn't measure anything but being good at cooking.
In programming that statement would evaluate to NULL. Its meaningless.
I think too many seem to think the term role play means only thjat which exists in the mind.This is the age of video gaming and ,no i don`t want to go back to the days of having to only imagine it ,like reading a book.I nreal life i am actually not into reading books,i prefer the BETTER option which is to add more sense to the idea,example sight and sounds not just reading with your eyes.
In some cases some of the simple ideas were good but imo only because there waas no other option.Example the simple Wizardry design of roll the die and create characters.Then using the stat system your player became unique and yo ucould replay with different stats.
I have got bored with the static spawns and immobile npc`s ,this is why i don`t want to go back in time where there is less options to make a great game.
The reason there is so many unhappy gamers is because the tech is here,the options are here but develoeprs are just too cheap to put in the ffort of using all the tools at hand to make a great game.I do nopt beleive the producers and board members are dumb,i thin k they have creative ideas and the know how,i just feel profits are determining more of the game designs.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Originally posted by Scot And did I mention how modern MMO’s are “fun”? As long as they are fun that excuses everything. Even if they are not fun for you and the countless others like you. Even if Modern MMO’s struggle to keep subs or cash shops open after two months, that does not matter. We have lost an immense amount of gameplay in MMO’s and while some has been added players are right to feel they have been short changed.
Of course, because that is the primary function of an entertainment product. And of course it does not matter if it is fun for only 2 month. Quailty is better than duration, don't you agree?
Loss? We gain an immense amont of gameplay. Now we have MOBA, lobby style MMO, arena pvp .. none of these styles are available in the beginning. Choices are good. Rejoice!
Originally posted by Slampig Originally posted by Ciano I'm probably thread number 1 million but I wanted to voice my own thoughts on this matter. I'm about 29. I've played nearly every MMO since Sierra's "The Realm" back in the 90's. I cut my MMO teeth on Ultima Online, Dabbled in Asheron's Call, Shadowbane, EVE, Auto Assault, Meridian 59, Planetside 1 and 2, Star Wars Galaxies, Warhammer, Darkfall, Pirates of the Burning Sea, and a whole host of other game's I've forgotten over the years. I've noticed the MMO's came out of the text based genre of Online games called Mudds. They were text only so people relied on innovative ways to create "interactive" worlds and communities. Being a GM meant somthing. He or She was a god in the gaming world. They set the stage for the story, and determined the results of world events and player actions. In Meridian 59, players and GM's sat on a regional counsel of judges that put players on trial for real or imagined crimes. I remember the coolest thing ever was being put on trial for an attempted Pking. I had a GM as the judge, a player and the victim were the prosecution, and a volunteer player. I of course argued innocent and claimed that it was an accident, I was just practicing my sword swing "roleplay of course *gasp* people roleplay?" and accidently hit the other player. Of course the prosecution got theatrical and accused me of being a murderer and a liar. After a bit of back and forth the judge sentenced me to a small fine and an hour in prison and .... well dang I was flagged red for a day. That was the coolest event ever for me in MMO gaming. It was a real world. Ultima Online took some of the power away from GM's but gave the roleplay event job to other employees. I remember specifically the Dupre roleplay events, the Lord British vs Lord Blackthorne events, and all the Halloween monster invasions and other things. Usually the boss monster was played by an Origin employee. The world occasionally changed and the developers changed things to go along with it. GM's and counselors even presided over player weddings and other events in game. What is my point? Somwhere along the way we lost the concept of what made an MMO and interactive world worth playing in. GM's are now glorified hall monitors designed to keep us in our class rooms while we have the latest MMO theories shoved down our throats. Independent thought is usually ignored and drown out by a plethora or willing idiots who abhore art, creativity, and a requirement for intellectual thought during a game. Instead we fill games with endless leveling treadmills, static themeparks full of shinies, pointless and repetative battlegrounds. Developers have removed all requirements of challenge, creativities, individualism from games. Everything is predictable and Game Masters are now wholly reviled for their intrusive and yet mostly useless role in MMO's. Am I simply getting old? When will developers release a game where things are challenging? Where success actually requires a community of players to survive? Why do games that allow a changing world and dynamic environment such as Wurm or Salem fail to attract the financial support to create a truly modern bug free version of a gaming "World" as opposed to the equivilant of a digital B movie? All I want in the end is companies and players alike to release a game that goes back to the golden age of video gaming. Days when we logged in to play with certain people and participate in this event or that event because it was part of the story. Not to go on Quest A or B to obtain the latest must have item. Where game companies made a concerted effort to change the world in response to our actions or gave the tools for us to do it ourselves. I'll assert that innovative digital world likes Shadowbane, Salem, Wurm, don't fail because players don't want to play them. My assertion is that they fail because big name publishers with the money to make them successful are afraid to take a chance on them. That, and today's players are too busy gobbling up the latest digital treadmill crap, that they don't know what made the first MMO's great to begin with.
Was a pretty good post until the enire, "Look at me, I am so much smarter than the average gamer" section...
That's not what I said at all. If you took it the wrong way I apologize. I call them "willing idiots" because there are a whole host of people out there that refuse to try any MMO that isn't a battlegrounds, level treadmill, mass market product. Games like EVE, Wurm, Shadowbane, Darkfall, etc are ignored because people are "afraid to lose their stuff" or "don't want to play a game that doesn't have tons of repeating quests with shinies".
God forbid these people actually learn what it's like to create their own content in a sandbox. No, they'd rather sit in goldshire on WOW and star at a bunch of partially nude dancing animated characters..... and swap romantic texts with some 40 year old man claiming to be an 18 year old college student. That my friends is the extent of the imagination of gamers these days.
LOL, never meant to imply that I was intellectually gifted. My wife would argue otherwise. I simply pointed out that the content being marketed these days is wholly less challenging and utterly designed from the bottom up to appeal to people who prefer not to put any real thought into their games. Everything is easier and less time consuming to appeal to everyone's desire for measureable accomplishment and gratification within ever shorter gaming sessions. I found Wurm challenging. I found taking 5 new players on an expedition to an island with no players on it, fighting our way past tons of tuff mobs, building a guard tower, and eventually a city, far more challenging and fulfilling than anything I ever did in say Fallen Earth or Warcraft as an example. It required planning, effort, plenty of failures, some comical deaths, but eventually we triumphed.
That to me is more entertaining that rinse and repeat battlegrounds and mass produced quests.
Originally posted by Ciano
To many, it is not more entertaining. In fact, i don't want to file an application to get into a guild, and commit to a raid schedule. I have done that .. it is not hard, but also not entertaining. Pick up and kill games are more entertaining, to me.
That is why MMOs are no longer "worlds" ... worlds are not that entertaining to many. It gets in the way of fun.
In fact, "rinse and repeat" battleground is hugely entertaining to many people ... look at the success of LOL.
Originally posted by Ciano Originally posted by Slampig Originally posted by Ciano
..... and swap romantic texts with some 40 year old man claiming to be an 18 year old college student. That my friends is the extent of the imagination of gamers these days.
Ahh, the "burly bearded lonely truck driver mistaken for a comely young lass syndrome".
I'm not really sure that that's imagination, but I'm not sure what else to call it.
Once upon a time....
Originally posted by Onomas
Not a huge step up... who do you see in the news mostly for all kinds of issues and mental problems...........
movie stars, sports players, few doctors, a lot of politicians, etc.........
Societies elite are often the worst people.
If your definition of 'worst people' are people that save other people's lives every day, you have a very different mind than me; and not in a good way.
/Back on topic
Some like to read and others like to write. I don't think either activity is better than the other but I accept those that want to 'read' are larger than those who want to 'write'. Nothing wrong with that as I myself would rather 'read' as well.
Games are a disposable entertainment product for me. Don't like it? Tough.
Gdemami -Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Originally posted by jpnz Issue with this 'golden age of gaming' is that the MMO scene at the time was very niche and was not mainstream. If that's what you call 'golden age', then that's your call. As someone who loves MMOs and want more people to play it, I disagree and say that's the 'dark age of gaming' where 'MMO player' = 'lived in parents basement' to a lot of people and was shun. I ask this question to every OP that posts this kind of stuff; 'what MMO do you sub right now? Are you actually putting your money where your mouth is?'
Yes it is his call as to what his idea of the golden age of gaming is. I tend to agree with the OP more than the modern view of the current MMO ... which is an on-rails 3 week to cap experience, as being a proper MMO. Modern MMO's are not worlds when no interaction is needed. It's thousands of single player games on a server.This is no MMO to me. Its gaming built on the "easy button" made to give modern gamers what the developers have taught you to believe. 80 hours of graphical eye-candy to get to level 80, because more level-ups obviously means the game is bigger, and endgame content consisting of the same 4 dungeon runs over and over for drops and PvP matches because thats what you consider entertainment. I certainly don't consider this the golden age of gaming. What you have now is exactly what you were taught to accept by the game makers. Disposable games to take the disposable income of disposable players, and each time you buy the next one you are putting your money where their mouth is.
"Where success actually requires a community of players to survive"
Well said sir very well said. I remember raiding was frickin raiding and 25-40-10 ppl w/e the case may be, we had to work yogether and figure it out and wipe and pick ourselves off the floor then come back and do it all over again untill we mastered it! I misss that shit
I miss the massive in MMO.
ATITD, EvE and Wurm are all like this. Although ATITD lacks combat.
Its clearly possible for an individual or a small company to make a successful cooperation based MMO that makes a profit. So why can't a major company who has access to marketing, superior art assets and dozens of industry veterans?
Originally posted by Cuathon ATITD, EvE and Wurm are all like this. Although ATITD lacks combat. Its clearly possible for an individual or a small company to make a successful cooperation based MMO that makes a profit. So why can't a major company who has access to marketing, superior art assets and dozens of industry veterans?
Its not as profitable.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Originally posted by Quirhid Originally posted by Cuathon ATITD, EvE and Wurm are all like this. Although ATITD lacks combat. Its clearly possible for an individual or a small company to make a successful cooperation based MMO that makes a profit. So why can't a major company who has access to marketing, superior art assets and dozens of industry veterans?
Not as profitable sure. But still profitable. It certainly wouldnt bomb as hard as SWTOR.
Originally posted by VendettaDFA
Yes cause speaking on behalf of me is always a good debating tactic. ROFL.
I wasn't taught to accept anything as I always treated video games as disposable entertainment products. I'm pretty sure the mainstream does as well.
I buy / sub a game with my friends or those I know from the SA community and play. Finish / get bored and move on to the next game.
My playstyle and thinking is the majority so that's where the $$$ is.
It might not be your playstyle or thinking but that's irrelevent. Free-market is working as intended.
Originally posted by Cuathon Originally posted by Quirhid Originally posted by Cuathon
Why make less money when you can make more money?