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Why the MMO Market isn't 'Dying' or Anything Of the Kind

2

Comments

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member

    Positive thread?  No wai.

    Ah, forum pvp ongoing, of course.  Never mind.

    Thanks for the infographic, LB

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by ezpz77
    Realistic logical thinking people know this. The only people who truly believe the genre is dying or "devolving" or anything like that are over-emotional, angsty, burned out vets. MMORPG.com just happens ot have an extmrely high ratio of burned out vets to regular old MMO players. And boy, those burned out vets are noisy as hell. They're basically MMO hipsters, and we all know hipsters suck.

    Yeah .. and they wish very hard that the "new" MMOs would die. If they want to stick their head in the sand, it is certainly their perogative.

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member

    i kinda agree

    we do need a variety of mmos, who wants to eat steak everyday

    the trouble was post wow, we kept getting served the same thing rehashed not as good as wow games with a gimmick

    or had the alternative of badly financed and buggy as hell indie mmo games

    reacing its nadir at the end of 2011.

    think things are turning with bigger budget mmos though, TSW and GW2 at least tried to be different, PS2 is different, upcoming games look like being different  and have money behind them - marvel heroes, star citizen, elite 4, everquest next, World of Darkness.  The new darkfall looks like it might have a half decent budget this time.  even so called wow clones like TESO appear to be more in the TSW / GW2 cattegory.

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    The fact that LoL and CoD are included makes all the data entirely meaningless.

    And even if we ignore that, the fact that a ton of money is being spent in the genre doesn't change the fact that the quality is rock bottom.

    lol what people are claiming COD and LOL are MMOs now?  thats almost as silly as the Diablo3 stuff.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Originally posted by DavisFlight The fact that LoL and CoD are included makes all the data entirely meaningless. And even if we ignore that, the fact that a ton of money is being spent in the genre doesn't change the fact that the quality is rock bottom.
    lol what people are claiming COD and LOL are MMOs now?  thats almost as silly as the Diablo3 stuff.


    The gaming industry. Which also means any analytic firms will also label them as MMOs.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by ShakyMo

    Originally posted by DavisFlight The fact that LoL and CoD are included makes all the data entirely meaningless. And even if we ignore that, the fact that a ton of money is being spent in the genre doesn't change the fact that the quality is rock bottom.
    lol what people are claiming COD and LOL are MMOs now?  thats almost as silly as the Diablo3 stuff.

    The gaming industry. Which also means any analytic firms will also label them as MMOs.

     

    If you actualy *read* the website, LOL is included but not COD.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by ShakyMo

    i kinda agree

    we do need a variety of mmos, who wants to eat steak everyday

    the trouble was post wow, we kept getting served the same thing rehashed not as good as wow games with a gimmick

    or had the alternative of badly financed and buggy as hell indie mmo games

    reacing its nadir at the end of 2011.

    think things are turning with bigger budget mmos though, TSW and GW2 at least tried to be different, PS2 is different, upcoming games look like being different  and have money behind them - marvel heroes, star citizen, elite 4, everquest next, World of Darkness.  The new darkfall looks like it might have a half decent budget this time.  even so called wow clones like TESO appear to be more in the TSW / GW2 cattegory.

    There *is* a variety, based on how this industry analytic firm slice and dice it.

    http://www.newzoo.com/insights/the-global-mmo-market-sizing-and-seizing-opportunities-2/

    Types of MMO:

    - RTS

    - RPG

    - Resource Management

    - Battle Arena

    - Shooting

    - Action/Fighting/Adventure

    - Sport.

    And there are also multiple settings from fantasy to sci-fi

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,854Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by ShakyMo

    i kinda agree

    we do need a variety of mmos, who wants to eat steak everyday

    the trouble was post wow, we kept getting served the same thing rehashed not as good as wow games with a gimmick

    or had the alternative of badly financed and buggy as hell indie mmo games

    reacing its nadir at the end of 2011.

    think things are turning with bigger budget mmos though, TSW and GW2 at least tried to be different, PS2 is different, upcoming games look like being different  and have money behind them - marvel heroes, star citizen, elite 4, everquest next, World of Darkness.  The new darkfall looks like it might have a half decent budget this time.  even so called wow clones like TESO appear to be more in the TSW / GW2 cattegory.

    There *is* a variety, based on how this industry analytic firm slice and dice it.

    http://www.newzoo.com/insights/the-global-mmo-market-sizing-and-seizing-opportunities-2/

    Types of MMO:

    - RTS

    - RPG

    - Resource Management

    - Battle Arena

    - Shooting

    - Action/Fighting/Adventure

    - Sport.

    And there are also multiple settings from fantasy to sci-fi

     

    I'm sure you just blew his mind and opened him up to worlds he never knew existed image.

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,214Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by lizardbones

    Originally posted by Lawlmonster
    It depends how you view the genre, and to what context. Personally, I wouldn't say that MMO's are dying, or have died, so much as they are mutating, however positive or negative that may be. My issue with MMO being used as a definition of a platform is that we already have one that does exactly the same thing: they're called online games. To use MMO strictly and literally, we're talking about a multiplayer game, played online, with a massive amount of players, and that may as well be fucking anything. By that standard, Call of Duty: Modern Warfare is an MMO, just as much as Diablo 3 or Team Fortress 2. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with these games on an individual, mechanical basis, but they don't bare any of the specific features that come to mind when thinking of MMORPG's, which is where the term originated, such as persistant worlds.

    This is the only fly in the ointment that I can see. It seems like the industry has chosen an expanded definition of the term that is well beyond what the people who created the genre intended. There's no way to tell how much is the traditional MMO and how much is the expanded MMO.

    Great thread.  This is more worthy of spotlight posting than some I've read recently.

    Anyway, here on this site we like to tightly define and compartmentalize everything.  I don't think the pioneers that invented the genre like Garriott, Jake Song, and their predecessors necessarily had the intention of defining a new gaming genre when they made their games.  All we had were lan multi-player games and the few internet services like AoL or Prodigy that provided some online gaming.  When I started playing Lineage we didn't even call it an MMO or refer to ourselves as MMO gamers in chat or on the forums.  We were just gamers.  The need or desire to define what is and isn't an MMO came later.

    I think they include all those different types of multi-player because they are massive, multi-player, online games.  We think in terms of persistent world, role-playing, etc.  The industry as a whole I'm sure understands those subtleties, but overall the genre is evolving way to rapidly to be confined to outdated definitions.  It sort of makes sense to lump them together, plus there isn't a clearly defined separation like there is with console or PC gaming.  If you play it on a console then it's console.  If you play it on a PC then it's PC.  If it's online, and massively multi-player, it's an MMO even though a lot of different gaming styles fit within that.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    I think they include all those different types of multi-player because they are massive, multi-player, online games.  We think in terms of persistent world, role-playing, etc.  The industry as a whole I'm sure understands those subtleties, but overall the genre is evolving way to rapidly to be confined to outdated definitions.  It sort of makes sense to lump them together, plus there isn't a clearly defined separation like there is with console or PC gaming.  If you play it on a console then it's console.  If you play it on a PC then it's PC.  If it's online, and massively multi-player, it's an MMO even though a lot of different gaming styles fit within that.

    Yeah .. note that the industry don't care about being "pure". In fact, they are always looking to branch out because that means more customers.

    And while a lot here are very obsessed with persistent world, obviously that is not how the industry look at "massive". "Massive" just means a lot of people in an online game for them. Thus, LOL  counts (certainly very massive in terms of players).

    I wonder if they also count D3. Personally i have no problem. I don't confine myself to any strict defintiion anyway. I look at a game and see if it is fun.

  • xeniarxeniar Posts: 805Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by ShakyMo

    i kinda agree

    we do need a variety of mmos, who wants to eat steak everyday

    the trouble was post wow, we kept getting served the same thing rehashed not as good as wow games with a gimmick

    or had the alternative of badly financed and buggy as hell indie mmo games

    reacing its nadir at the end of 2011.

    think things are turning with bigger budget mmos though, TSW and GW2 at least tried to be different, PS2 is different, upcoming games look like being different  and have money behind them - marvel heroes, star citizen, elite 4, everquest next, World of Darkness.  The new darkfall looks like it might have a half decent budget this time.  even so called wow clones like TESO appear to be more in the TSW / GW2 cattegory.

    There *is* a variety, based on how this industry analytic firm slice and dice it.

    http://www.newzoo.com/insights/the-global-mmo-market-sizing-and-seizing-opportunities-2/

    Types of MMO:

    - RTS

    - RPG

    - Resource Management

    - Battle Arena

    - Shooting

    - Action/Fighting/Adventure

    - Sport.

    And there are also multiple settings from fantasy to sci-fi

    We do have that variety but they are all Themeparks they all work under the same mechanics and i for one am bored with them + sport or sci fi might not be to evryones taste. to each their own.

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by xeniar
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by ShakyMo

    i kinda agree

    we do need a variety of mmos, who wants to eat steak everyday

    the trouble was post wow, we kept getting served the same thing rehashed not as good as wow games with a gimmick

    or had the alternative of badly financed and buggy as hell indie mmo games

    reacing its nadir at the end of 2011.

    think things are turning with bigger budget mmos though, TSW and GW2 at least tried to be different, PS2 is different, upcoming games look like being different  and have money behind them - marvel heroes, star citizen, elite 4, everquest next, World of Darkness.  The new darkfall looks like it might have a half decent budget this time.  even so called wow clones like TESO appear to be more in the TSW / GW2 cattegory.

    There *is* a variety, based on how this industry analytic firm slice and dice it.

    http://www.newzoo.com/insights/the-global-mmo-market-sizing-and-seizing-opportunities-2/

    Types of MMO:

    - RTS

    - RPG

    - Resource Management

    - Battle Arena

    - Shooting

    - Action/Fighting/Adventure

    - Sport.

    And there are also multiple settings from fantasy to sci-fi

    We do have that variety but they are all Themeparks they all work under the same mechanics and i for one am bored with them + sport or sci fi might not be to evryones taste. to each their own.

    Eve & Planetside 2 are some pretty craazy themeparks then.

    Just because there isn't a game every single year that specifically caters to you, doesn't mean there isn't variety.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by aesperus
    Originally posted by xeniar
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by ShakyMo

    i kinda agree

    we do need a variety of mmos, who wants to eat steak everyday

    the trouble was post wow, we kept getting served the same thing rehashed not as good as wow games with a gimmick

    or had the alternative of badly financed and buggy as hell indie mmo games

    reacing its nadir at the end of 2011.

    think things are turning with bigger budget mmos though, TSW and GW2 at least tried to be different, PS2 is different, upcoming games look like being different  and have money behind them - marvel heroes, star citizen, elite 4, everquest next, World of Darkness.  The new darkfall looks like it might have a half decent budget this time.  even so called wow clones like TESO appear to be more in the TSW / GW2 cattegory.

    There *is* a variety, based on how this industry analytic firm slice and dice it.

    http://www.newzoo.com/insights/the-global-mmo-market-sizing-and-seizing-opportunities-2/

    Types of MMO:

    - RTS

    - RPG

    - Resource Management

    - Battle Arena

    - Shooting

    - Action/Fighting/Adventure

    - Sport.

    And there are also multiple settings from fantasy to sci-fi

    We do have that variety but they are all Themeparks they all work under the same mechanics and i for one am bored with them + sport or sci fi might not be to evryones taste. to each their own.

    Eve & Planetside 2 are some pretty craazy themeparks then.

    Just because there isn't a game every single year that specifically caters to you, doesn't mean there isn't variety.

    Yeh! .. and if there are so much variety, and still one cannot find something you like, may be it is time to ask why. Or .. move on to something else.

  • BanaghranBanaghran HuisoPosts: 869Member
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by Banaghran
    Well, one must wonder about what a "mmo platform" really is, so out of context it does seem like some sham for investors.

     

    Anyways, the mmorpg business is not dying, we dont see blizz bankrupt or things like that, the problem is more in the area of MTV dying, you know, once MUSIC television, now there is more rality shows there than music...

    Flame on!

    :)



    The different platforms are explained at the bottom of the info graphic.

     

    If i would try to nitpick, i would say that mmos are not explicitly excluded from box sales, but that was not my point, ask just here what a mmo is, you will fin 100 definitions, while a pc platform or mac platform is more straightforward.

    A prudent approach would be to call them non-casual online only games, but whatever, its not the atomic explosions infographic that hilariously assumed that every square mile of the surface of the earth would have to be hit by a nuclear blast to end civilisation :)

    Flame on!

    :)

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Banaghran
    Originally posted by lizardbones   Originally posted by Banaghran Well, one must wonder about what a "mmo platform" really is, so out of context it does seem like some sham for investors.   Anyways, the mmorpg business is not dying, we dont see blizz bankrupt or things like that, the problem is more in the area of MTV dying, you know, once MUSIC television, now there is more rality shows there than music... Flame on! :)
    The different platforms are explained at the bottom of the info graphic.  
    If i would try to nitpick, i would say that mmos are not explicitly excluded from box sales, but that was not my point, ask just here what a mmo is, you will fin 100 definitions, while a pc platform or mac platform is more straightforward.

    A prudent approach would be to call them non-casual online only games, but whatever, its not the atomic explosions infographic that hilariously assumed that every square mile of the surface of the earth would have to be hit by a nuclear blast to end civilisation :)

    Flame on!

    :)




    There is additional information available that someone could pay for...but I'm not one of those someones. I would think the information you pay for describes what is included in each category in more detail.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • xeniarxeniar Posts: 805Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by aesperus
    Originally posted by xeniar
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by ShakyMo

    i kinda agree

    we do need a variety of mmos, who wants to eat steak everyday

    the trouble was post wow, we kept getting served the same thing rehashed not as good as wow games with a gimmick

    or had the alternative of badly financed and buggy as hell indie mmo games

    reacing its nadir at the end of 2011.

    think things are turning with bigger budget mmos though, TSW and GW2 at least tried to be different, PS2 is different, upcoming games look like being different  and have money behind them - marvel heroes, star citizen, elite 4, everquest next, World of Darkness.  The new darkfall looks like it might have a half decent budget this time.  even so called wow clones like TESO appear to be more in the TSW / GW2 cattegory.

    There *is* a variety, based on how this industry analytic firm slice and dice it.

    http://www.newzoo.com/insights/the-global-mmo-market-sizing-and-seizing-opportunities-2/

    Types of MMO:

    - RTS

    - RPG

    - Resource Management

    - Battle Arena

    - Shooting

    - Action/Fighting/Adventure

    - Sport.

    And there are also multiple settings from fantasy to sci-fi

    We do have that variety but they are all Themeparks they all work under the same mechanics and i for one am bored with them + sport or sci fi might not be to evryones taste. to each their own.

    Eve & Planetside 2 are some pretty craazy themeparks then.

    Just because there isn't a game every single year that specifically caters to you, doesn't mean there isn't variety.

    EVE and PS2 a sci fi and a FPS. i tried EVE i just cant get into the game EVe is not for evryone if it was it would have more subs. and PS2 i joined a game and it was really chaotic. now i like chaotic as a love BF3 large vehiculair batles but for some reason it stroke me in the wrong way.

    like i said some games are not for evryone. i Like fantasy in my MMORPG's but apart from old beasties with a very low player count, all we get is themeparks. yeah i know Darkfall is comming. im gonna try that atleast.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by lizardbones



    There is additional information available that someone could pay for...but I'm not one of those someones. I would think the information you pay for describes what is included in each category in more detail.

     

    Newzoo has been doing it for years. They are a reputable market research company. I am comfortable with whatever way they slice & dice the market.

    They know more about the market than anyone posting here.

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 20,006Member Uncommon

    Yep, plenty of MMO's seems like more every year, but the number of more virtual world like MMORPG's has gone down drastically, since they cater to a much smaller niche market.

    The lure of easy money has a very strong appeal........

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Kyleran

    Yep, plenty of MMO's seems like more every year, but the number of more virtual world like MMORPG's has gone down drastically, since they cater to a much smaller niche market.

    The lure of easy money has a very strong appeal........

    Nothing wrong with easy money. In fact, even from a work satisfaction point of view, wouldn't a dev like their games to be play by MORE players?

    If virtual world is a niche market, there is no reason why devs should not branch out.

    The fact that newzoo define MMO with so many different categories is a testament that virtual world MMO is not the only kind, or even the dominant kind, anymore.

    Just LOL probably have more active players than all virtual world focus MMO added together.

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 20,006Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Kyleran

    Yep, plenty of MMO's seems like more every year, but the number of more virtual world like MMORPG's has gone down drastically, since they cater to a much smaller niche market.

    The lure of easy money has a very strong appeal........

    Nothing wrong with easy money. In fact, even from a work satisfaction point of view, wouldn't a dev like their games to be play by MORE players?

    If virtual world is a niche market, there is no reason why devs should not branch out.

    The fact that newzoo define MMO with so many different categories is a testament that virtual world MMO is not the only kind, or even the dominant kind, anymore.

    Just LOL probably have more active players than all virtual world focus MMO added together.

    You always seem to mistake popularity and quantity as the only driving reason for doing anything in life.

    It isn't always about catering to the largest possible audience.......sometimes its about catering to your target audience, whatever its size may be.

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • PyrateLVPyrateLV Las Vegas, NVPosts: 1,096Member Common
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Kyleran

    Yep, plenty of MMO's seems like more every year, but the number of more virtual world like MMORPG's has gone down drastically, since they cater to a much smaller niche market.

    The lure of easy money has a very strong appeal........

    Nothing wrong with easy money. In fact, even from a work satisfaction point of view, wouldn't a dev like their games to be play by MORE players?

    If virtual world is a niche market, there is no reason why devs should not branch out.

    The fact that newzoo define MMO with so many different categories is a testament that virtual world MMO is not the only kind, or even the dominant kind, anymore.

    Just LOL probably have more active players than all virtual world focus MMO added together.

    So you think the shallow linear derivative games with millions of players are better than deep engaging games with only  a few 100k?

    Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
    Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
    Playing: Skyrim
    Following: The Repopulation
    I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
    ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)

  • WarbandWarband ChesterPosts: 723Member
    Originally posted by PyrateLV
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Kyleran

    Yep, plenty of MMO's seems like more every year, but the number of more virtual world like MMORPG's has gone down drastically, since they cater to a much smaller niche market.

    The lure of easy money has a very strong appeal........

    Nothing wrong with easy money. In fact, even from a work satisfaction point of view, wouldn't a dev like their games to be play by MORE players?

    If virtual world is a niche market, there is no reason why devs should not branch out.

    The fact that newzoo define MMO with so many different categories is a testament that virtual world MMO is not the only kind, or even the dominant kind, anymore.

    Just LOL probably have more active players than all virtual world focus MMO added together.

    So you think the shallow linear derivative games with millions of players are better than deep engaging games with only  a few 100k?

     It's not an either or scenario there's plenty of niche games mmo's as well that are almost universally panned as bad, same with big budget mmo's it comes to game design, not how many people it's caters to. e.g chess is accessable and deep, there's games like that too (obviously down to personal opinion), but somthing being mainstream doesn't automatically make it worse than something that isn't.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by PyrateLV
     

    So you think the shallow linear derivative games with millions of players are better than deep engaging games with only  a few 100k?

    No, i think good deep linear games like Dishonored with millions of players are better than "virtual world' games that are no fun and go overboard with "realism".

  • AmarantharAmaranthar OhioPosts: 2,430Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by PyrateLV
     

    So you think the shallow linear derivative games with millions of players are better than deep engaging games with only  a few 100k?

    No, i think good deep linear games like Dishonored with millions of players are better than "virtual world' games that are no fun and go overboard with "realism".

    What is this MMO called "Dishonored"?

    And what's "Overboard with realism"? I'm not asking what it is to you, I'm asking what it is to me. Because evidently what I and many other gamers want is very questionable in your mind, so I have a need to know what I really want.

    Once upon a time....

  • dotdotdashdotdotdash Llandrindod WellsPosts: 364Member

    The OP says "more money is spent on MMOs than X" as if that is a badge of honour.

    In recent times we've noted this, but it's reasonable to say that the expectations the investors of the money had have been significantly diminished by recent failures in the MMO space.

    Ergo, they spent all of that money and either ONLY JUST managed a return on it, or failed entirely to see a return on it.

    That means that in the future LESS money will be spent on MMOs. The subscription model - and the "MMOs as a service" ideology is failing, and the F2P model seems to be demonstrating that it lacks longevity. As MMOs have additional overheads on limited multiplayer games and single player games, they will take on a B2P model (similar to Guild Wars 2, and TSW) and be priced higher than the average game.

    Investors are wisening up to the genre. They are starting to realise that a hugely successful single player game is an easier thing to attain than a hugely successful MMO. They are starting to move their money away from the MMO genre and back to conventional gaming. The same thing is happening with the casual gaming space, as can be evidenced by the horrific fall of Zynga.

    Obviously MMOs won't die entirely, but they are due a reality check. In the future, I think we're going to see a lot of variety in the space as developers try to find a way to reverse their current fortunes. I also think that WoW has ruined the prospects of a genre dominated by subscription games.

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