It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Originally posted by Zekiah I'll hand it to the suits though, it's a great scam, works perfectly. STO is the real success story, lots of whales in that game.
Also works perfectly for the shrewd players. Aren't you happy that whales are paying for your games?
I play STO for free .. great success story. If a whale wants to spend $20 on a star ship so i can fight klingons, i am more than happy to oblige.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Disagree. They are called free to play because you can play a good portion of the game for free, without a time limit, so you can play free as long as you and the game are alive and they HOPE at some time you will buy something.
They are just hung up on the label. "Free to play" is pretty accurate. It is free to play, not "free to play all", nor "free to play and get everything".
Plus, most games are pretty up front on what you can get in teh cash shop .. how can they not be? They want to sell the stuff. So it is a perfectly transparent business.
If you can't live without the stuff in cash shop, and you don't want to pay, don't play the game.
Originally posted by nariusseldon Also works perfectly for the shrewd players. Aren't you happy that whales are paying for your games?
That's pretty much how I see it also.
One aspect I very much enjoy is I can download and evaluate for free with no financial obligation. If I had to buy the box, I wouldn't have that unless there was a free trial.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
Originally posted by Enerzeal I am rather shocked at how the market has developed in this day and age. Now developers create free to play games, they put in place gimics to get you to spend your money. Items you buy for a chance to get a nice item, increased exp rates, equipment that beats out what can be found in game, they lock away content, they seal up the game until you pay money. People quote often that atleast 90% of people who play free to play games avoid spending any cash on them. This is to you 90% who complain about pay to win, who moan about how long it takes to achieve what someone purchasing from the shop can acheve. You made this happen. In a subscription game, 100% of the people pay $15 / £9 a month. Everything is open, nothing is pay to win. In a play for free game, a better rate of income is achieved inside the 10% of people who play, than that of a subscription game. To compare, this is like 9 people playing WoW for free, and the tenth guy paying 10 times as much, plus some on the top because as we know, play for free is more profitable. So when that tenth guy come along with his great gear, his fast leveling, and his lovely cosmetic items, do not complain that he paid to win, he paid to win because the developers offered those items, they offered those items - because they need to properly monetize their game. I play Planetside 2, in the past month I have spent about £40 on it. Roughly on par with a purchased game box and a subscription. i won't be needing to spend this much in the future, I have what I need now and I am pleased with it. People complain that certification gains are to slow, they they can't farm up enough to buy guns with cert points. Now cert gain is fine if you buy the guns off the market with station cash and use your cert points to upgrade the guns and your selected classes. You see what so many free to play people forget is that though the game might be free to log in, the developers never intended you to free ride your way through the game, they didn't intend for you to have your cake and eat it, to let the crazy 10% support your free loading. heres a novel thought, spend a bit on the market every now and then and developers might not need to implement pay to win options, gear, exp increases and random chance loot bags.
Subscription seems to create a better playerbase and a proper environment where everyone is 'in it together'.
F2P just doesn't thrill me, whatever the profit rational one gives.
The more transient the game (like Planetside 2 where you just run in and shoot people for an hour, sorta like Quake), the more a F2P model makes sense and seems to work ok.
But the more community-oriented the game (like SWG or Ultima Online), the more a sub-based model seems to work well.
Just my 2 cents...
I've noticed terrible communities in p2p games and good communities in f2p, and vice versa. I don't think the payment model makes any difference.
The only difference I have noticed in communities is small communities are often friendlier, niche games have more like minde people.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Your right there is. Which is why I promote people reading up on their games and making an informed decision. B2P, F2P, P2P has no bearing on that - suckers and informed decision makers for all of them.
You can't eliminate all the suckers. The fact that spam still exist shows that.
OTOH, if a few suckers (or whales) are funding informed players' gaming experiences, so what? I don't see a problem, particularly because i am not a whale.
Someone asked if there is any other payment models that can be implemented to MMOs. Well I think sub games can implement a PPM (pay per minute) model so that casual players do not need to pay 15$/month just for playing several hours at weekend. They can also give free hours with expansions etc to cover the time required to level up. I think this model would make me turn back to me to several games like WoW for example. Though this model might make people very annoying especially in dungeons etc with peeps saying "come onnnn dude, I pay per hour and you are afking... go go go go go" Well he might be right but I do not even want to think about attitudes of those players at all.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar They actually started with a pay per hour if I recall.
Yes. I was playing Kingdom of Drakkar as late as 1994. It is a 2D tile based "MMO" RPG .. (more like online RPG because you can only have hundreds of players).
It costs $2 per HOUR. It has bosses and 'raids". I remember going with some online friends to kill a boss and get a "chipper staff". It is just a little icon, but i suppose a raid is a raid.
And I also remember that you can use "telnet" to connect to the game server ..
A recurring comment around here is that the "whales" - the 10% of the 10% - pay exorbitant amounts of money and that's what allows the game to succeed. That is partially true. There is a small percentage of players that pay a lot, that part is true. The part that three price barriers of subscription games are removed.
This allows far more people to enter the game and stay inthe game. That's the other side of the equation. The 10% that pay $5, $50, $500 etc are what pay for the game. It seems the impression here is that you have 90% that pay nothing and 10% that pay thousand each per month. That's simply not true and not how the model works.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The math for all of this is pretty simple.
It looks something like this
1k Users Paying $15 a month
9k Users Paying $0
900 Users Paying $15 (on average)
$100 Users Paying $150 (on average)
Total is more than P2P, and most comes from the 'whales'.
The 9K users dont care about P2Win. They are not planning on paying any money, and dont care about those that do.
The 900 Users are extremely virolent about P2Win, as they are putting in money, but not as much as others.
The 100 Users dont care about P2Win, as they are putting in enough money to be on top.
Originally posted by XAPGames Originally posted by nariusseldon Also works perfectly for the shrewd players. Aren't you happy that whales are paying for your games?
THis is the appeal for me also...In the old days we literally had to buy the game to even know what it was about....We found some great games to be sure, but there were also alot of duds....I remember buying a couple games that literally did not load at all and often companies bac kthen didn't give any kind of refund once you opened software.....If ever ysingle game charged full box price and a sub before we can even see the game, where would the industry be now?
It's the games' fault.
The games became linear monster killing with some story. If the story is very good, like lotro imo, then you can repeat it a few times before it grinds. If it's just ok, like swtor imo, then you can do it maybe once per faction. If the game has a bunch of distinctive races, classes and starting locations then you can potentially go through half a dozen times maybe. And if the story part isn't any good and it's just linear mob killing then it gets really dull really fast no matter how polished the actual mob-killing part is.
So F2P came along because most games focused too much on linear mob-killing rather than the magic ingredient that makes people want to hang out in a virtual world. However F2P doesn't fix that problem. F2P is simply a revenue model that better suits the problem. I know i won't want to play the game for long if it's just linear mob-killing so what am i going to buy in the cash shop? For me personally it's either cosmetic items or content unlocks which is like paying for a mini-expansion.
Now because a lot of these games weren't set up to make money like that they have a tendency to start selling p2win gear or really stupid and annoying things like the unlock stuff in swtor or weird mounts and outfits that don't fit the game.
I think this is particularly so in originally AAA games that copied wow's way of dropping random gear from random mobs so they already had a lot of different good looking armor and gear graphics. If they had a small set of quite bland default skins and some much better looking ones you could buy that would work better.
Similarly if a game has been designed in a modular fashion initially it would be easier to plug in new content modules.
I don't plan on paying. Suck it, Trebek.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by Enerzeal You made this happen.
stopped reading there.
consumers didn't make it happen. corporate greed did.
i'd rather spend 60 bucks on a game rather then a f2p game. your argument is fail.
how about this OP:
you continue to spend money in F2P games, and i'll continue to play for free?.....sounds good to me (have not spent 1 dime in PS2).
Originally posted by kaungst I for one completely agree with you. The games I play have F2P option but i chose to pay monthly sub. For seeral reasons, 1 it helps further development and longjevity if the game. 2 I get my DLC powers and whatever cosmeticly appealing items I was wanting, Lets face it, if they make no money then the lifespan of the game is limmited at best. F2P is killing the industry. The next time you cry because you can't get the gear or game mode or whatever you want because you didnt pay a sub or make a micro-transaction, Just be thankful that they allow you to mooch of the generosity of the game company. I for one wish that F2P never came to be. I pay my subs and am happy to do so! R.I.P. City of Heroes We miss our adventures through the streets of paragon City
Actually its more wow-clones that is killing the indistry, since wow has come out name one AAA mmo that hasn't just copy and pasted most of its gameplay from wow. Only one I can name is FF14. WoW was only as successful as it was due to a classic case of perfect timing on its release. If the gameplay was all that good and how the game flows, then all these wow-clones wouldn't be crashing and burning in less than 6 months. They do poorly because people who aren't playing wow anymore and are looking for a mmo, aren't interested in bascally play the exact same game with a new skin (rift, tsw, swtor etc all suffer from this).
Now back onto the topic. I won't buy anything in a f2p games cash shop unless I feel the stuff is priced fairly, I'm sorry but 15-25 US dollars for 1 virtual item, is in no way in hell going to get a purchaise from me, if it was 3-5 dollars though on the other hand I would be much more likely to buy it. Many of these f2p games do not seem to grasp that if they would lower the prices of stuff, more people would be tempted to spend. Rappelz is a prime example, a stamina saver which gives double exp for 1 hour, cost 2 dollars EACH. I'd never buy those, but if they were like, 25 cents each or something I could see me buying a ton of them. A cape is like 20 bucks or something, the prices are way to high that barely anyone buys. I've talked to alot of players in these types of games, and almost all of them said they would buy cash shop items if the prices were alot more resonable, but because these hosters want some pretty obscene amounts for alot or most of the items, people are more reluctant to spend.
Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:
A. Proven right (if something bad happens)
B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)
Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!
You must remember, you can't Pay to Win in a game that doesn't include competitive playstyle. For instance, P2W can only be associated with games that include focused PvP. With that being said, here are some games that offer either focused PvE or both PvE and PvP.
Hell, even PS2 is close to being a decent game despite being very competitive and focused on PvP with a F2P model. Yes, you can get better weapons and upgrades faster with station cash, but like most F2P games, it isn't necessary.
Originally posted by Jakdstripper how about this OP: you continue to spend money in F2P games, and i'll continue to play for free?.....sounds good to me (have not spent 1 dime in PS2).
I vote for this too.
Incidentally i am also playing PS2 for free.
Originally posted by daltanious Agree in full with OP. I really HATE F2P games and cheap people that are cause for this, they are destroyers of quality gaming. No money, no quality. Simple as that. You can not run quality restaurant and feeding for free everyone that have few minutes to spare to eat for free. GW2 is so far only exception but is also B2P. Any game that have in time maybe switched to f2p model will only play again if they have also sub model. For me is - reluctantly - acceptable to have shops with STRICTLY vanity objects.
Why don't you become a whale and pump lots of money into the genre?
BTW, you don't have to accept anything, reluctant or not .. you can always quit and do something else.
And hatred is really getting you no where, since you really can't force "cheap" people to pay.
Originally posted by Siveria Actually its more wow-clones that is killing the indistry, since wow has come out name one AAA mmo that hasn't just copy and pasted most of its gameplay from wow. Only one I can name is FF14. WoW was only as successful as it was due to a classic case of perfect timing on its release. If the gameplay was all that good and how the game flows, then all these wow-clones wouldn't be crashing and burning in less than 6 months. They do poorly because people who aren't playing wow anymore and are looking for a mmo, aren't interested in bascally play the exact same game with a new skin (rift, tsw, swtor etc all suffer from this).
Why name-drop FFXIV as a counter-example, then turn around and immediately say that WoW clones crash and burn in less than 6 months? XIV crashed faster and harder than any of the WoW clones. DC Universe Online is another example of a AAA MMO that was pretty substantially different than WoW but suffered a mass exodus shortly after launch and went F2P in 10 months.
You can't say that AAA WoW clones are doing terrible because they copied WoW. AAA MMOs that are not named World of Warcraft are doing bad in general, and the ones doing especially bad are the ones that were major departures from the WoW formula.