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Poll: Us or Them?

AxehandleAxehandle Florida, FLPosts: 147Member

I consider myself to be pretty tolerant to most things and as far as gaming I'll put up with crap for a while hence my near 4 years of progressively worse gameplay in wow but it's got me wondering after reading so many like minded threads from other disgruntled gamers where does the blame fall.

 

Are we just whiners or are the gaming companies really producing crap products?

 

Please keep the game bashing to a minimum.

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Comments

  • coretex666coretex666 PraguePosts: 1,934Member Uncommon

    It is them. Of course our standards go up and develop in some way. However, the producers are supposed to react to that and produce games of adequate quality.

    Instead, they keep releasing the same games with only several minor changes here and there.

     

    Waiting for L2 EU Classic

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,853Member Uncommon

    I think it's them but not because they are putting out garbage, they were developing what they thought we wanted and would pay for.  Trace five years back from today and tell me that as a developer you wouldn't think a themepark MMO would sell and sell really well.  Most companies don't have the means to brake and change a product like EQN or hit the reset button like FF14.  Thank goodness SoE had the foresight to make a U-ee.

    I'm wondering how many pre-production or alpha phase titles we'll never know about because until a year or two ago there was an oasis of revenue for a themepark MMO.

    Edit: It's also worth noting that companies don't usually share thier mid production babies with each other so each one didn't know they were all making the same type of game.

  • Yodi2007Yodi2007 Valdosta, GAPosts: 167Member

    I'd say its both of us, because if we didn't buy into such hyped crap then they wouldn't keep trying to shove crap down our throats.

    I blame Suits mostly than Devs really thought because the devs are pushed to release before the polished product is ready to apease investors reports.   

    Below is where we can disscuss and come up with new ideas for Sandparks!

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5164689#5164689

  • AxehandleAxehandle Florida, FLPosts: 147Member
    Originally posted by Aelious

    I think it's them but not because they are putting out garbage, they were developing what they thought we wanted and would pay for.  Trace five years back from today and tell me that as a developer you wouldn't think a themepark MMO would sell and sell really well.  Most companies don't have the means to brake and change a product like EQN or hit the reset button like FF14.  Thank goodness SoE had the foresight to make a U-ee.

    I'm wondering how many pre-production or alpha phase titles we'll never know about because until a year or two ago there was oasis of revenue for a themepark MMO.

    All due respect to your opinion and I'm sure most Indy developers couldn't pause and reset their product but the major titles are put out by major companies I just don't see bioware with ea backing not having the power to stop and revamp the trash that became known as swtor back in 2010 when the problems were obviously there.

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,853Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Axehandle
    Originally posted by Aelious

    I think it's them but not because they are putting out garbage, they were developing what they thought we wanted and would pay for.  Trace five years back from today and tell me that as a developer you wouldn't think a themepark MMO would sell and sell really well.  Most companies don't have the means to brake and change a product like EQN or hit the reset button like FF14.  Thank goodness SoE had the foresight to make a U-ee.

    I'm wondering how many pre-production or alpha phase titles we'll never know about because until a year or two ago there was oasis of revenue for a themepark MMO.

    All due respect to your opinion and I'm sure most Indy developers couldn't pause and reset their product but the major titles are put out by major companies I just don't see bioware with ea backing not having the power to stop and revamp the trash that became known as swtor back in 2010 when the problems were obviously there.

     You have a point there and after downloading it on my sons laptop tonight I had one of those "FU guys!" moments for what it could have been.  I may be missing another title like swtor but I can't think of another themepark to come out that could have done it.  You're correct about swtor though.

  • pierthpierth San Antonio, TXPosts: 1,503Member

    I said both; many of us just haven't gotten with the times- the whole electronic landscape has changed drastically since '99 and newer gamers and casual gamers alike are just more easily satisfied than some of the vocal minority of "old timers."


    On the other hand, in a business sense it would be stupid of the publishers to require devs to make decisions that would hurt the marketability/popularity of their product as well as put more money into it than the project would require to turn a profit. If the players will accept less then the pubs are happy to give less and charge more.


    Get the majority of gamers to have higher expectations of their games and then something might happen.

  • AdamantineAdamantine NowherePosts: 3,514Member

    Bioware was an extremely successful company. What was their secret ? They created games they wanted to play themselves. Not anymore. Bioware is owned by EA now, and profit optimization is paramount.

    Blizzard. I am no big fan of Blizzard, since I dont like Diablo or WoW or Starcraft(?) or any of their other titles. But they had a set of good principles and they obviously became very popular with it.

    So yeah, its them. They simply dont want to create good products anymore. They want to monopolize the market and earn their money with trash and garbage.

     

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,643Member Uncommon
    It's gamers, but not because their standards are too high.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • MyTabbycatMyTabbycat SP, MOPosts: 312Member

    It's a bit from both sides. What people want changes faster than developers can produce games to keep up. A good AAA MMO takes 5 or 6 years to develop. What players want can change drastically during that time period.

    That said, gaming companies have produced some real stinkers.

  • xeniarxeniar Posts: 805Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MyTabbycat

    It's a bit from both sides. What people want changes faster than developers can produce games to keep up. A good AAA MMO takes 5 or 6 years to develop. What players want can change drastically during that time period.

    That said, gaming companies have produced some real stinkers.

    Developing a MMO is indeed labor intensive but what are they doing with it? they are creating these beautifull plots of land and then use them for leveling while at the end of leveling (wich you reach very fast) you dont need to be out in that land instead you can do instanced pvp and dungeons. so if developers goal is this instant pvp and dungeons why the heck do they make those labor intensive lands?

    its not that we want a drastic change. We are just bored with a lobby system inside a MMO. wich could actually be made alot faster then a MMO :P

  • darkhalf357xdarkhalf357x Brooklyn, NYPosts: 1,164Member Uncommon

    I say its a little bit of us but mostly them.  The problem as I see it, as developers/publishers are trying to create that ONE game that caters to ALL players and I dont think that can be made.

    Some gamers LOVE to level fast (if they like levelling at all), LOVE action-based combat, want NO progression, and just want to get at it.  There should be a game specifically for them.

    But there are others who love to take their time levelling, want more systems in the game, detest action combat, and want (somewhat) endless progression and stat management.  There should be a completely different game specifically for them.

    MMORPGs will have to go niche in order to sustain any long term playerbase.  They need to change the formula which has been used over the past 8 years.  Get creative.  Question I have, is that feasible to produce for a large publisher?  I say dont spend 300 million like its a movie, but maybe spend 80 million (Im guessing) and make a 'smaller' game to support 350-500K users instead of trying to get 10 million.   There are only some many MMO gamers and there are a plethora of games.  I dont see those high numbers being reached (again) anytime soon nor do I see them being maintained.

    image
  • xeniarxeniar Posts: 805Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by darkhalf357x

    I say its a little bit of us but mostly them.  The problem as I see it, as developers/publishers are trying to create that ONE game that caters to ALL players and I dont think that can be made.

    Some gamers LOVE to level fast (if they like levelling at all), LOVE action-based combat, want NO progression, and just want to get at it.  There should be a game specifically for them.

    But there are others who love to take their time levelling, want more systems in the game, detest action combat, and want (somewhat) endless progression and stat management.  There should be a completely different game specifically for them.

    MMORPGs will have to go niche in order to sustain any long term playerbase.  They need to change the formula which has been used over the past 8 years.  Get creative.  Question I have, is that feasible to produce for a large publisher?  I say dont spend 300 million like its a movie, but maybe spend 80 million (Im guessing) and make a 'smaller' game to support 350-500K users instead of trying to get 10 million.   There are only some many MMO gamers and there are a plethora of games.  I dont see those high numbers being reached (again) anytime soon nor do I see them being maintained.

    Your right. they should target a small yet stable playerbase in a game people can really enjoy. No that 10mil will never be reached again. and the only reason WoW has reached it was because warcraft was already a big thing on its own with alot of people loving the franchise. it explored a new market and took the fans with it.

  • DauzqulDauzqul Detroit, MIPosts: 1,402Member Uncommon

    Are some of you ill? It's 100% their fault.

     

    With the amount of time and money it takes to develope a mmorpg, you would think the developers would do a little research.

    HISTORY SPEAKS

     

    #1. EverQuest 1 was a success. It made money and had long-term sustain.

    #2. Star Wars Galaxies was a success. It made money and had long-term sustain.

    #3. World of Warcraft came to town and set a new precedent. It buried every other MMO in terms of profit AND had long-term sustain.

    #4. SOE yearns to generate WoW-like profit. Thus, they revamp Star Wars Galaxies into a linear "WoW" style game (NGE). It backfired... big time. Zero Sustain.

    THE SERIES OF WOW-CLONES BEGIN

    #5. Vanguard releases. It's ultimately an open area Theme Park... another big / broken version of WoW. Zero Sustain. It's a mess.

    #6. Age of Conan releases. It's ultimately a tiny version of WoW. Hardware issues for many. Lack of content. Zero Sustain. It's a mess.

    #7. Warhammer Online releases. It's ultimately the same WoW-steak... but with different seasoning. Been there, done that. Zero Sustain.

    #8. WoW is getting pretty old now. Many players aren't necessarily looking for a new clone, but a totally different experience.

    #9. The MMO surge is over. WoW started as a fad, e.g., nerds played it, jocks played it, business people played it, losers played it, women played it, rich people played it, ghetto people played it. New people aren't buying MMOs anymore. Most people who purchase them are veterans. They are getting older and yearn for a bit more depth. WoW is starting to get really old.

    #10. Aion, Star Trek Online, Champions Online, DC Universe, Countless no-name clones, EQ2 revamps their PvP into Battleground form, RIFT, etc.

    #11. SWTOR finally launches. It quickly becomes the most talked about and most hated game of all time. It's the birth of a new genre: Single Playing Online RPGs. No Sustain.

    #12. More WoW-clones launch... including Tera and Guild Wars 2.

    #13. The Secret World launches. While it's a bit different than WoW, it has no appeal and is not what MMO gamers have been looking for.

     

    It's not hard to look at the trend. PEOPLE DON'T WANT ANOTHER WOW! People want depth, player-driven content, content, and sustain. However, the developers do nothing but look at WoW and their damn numbers.

  • ZekiahZekiah Aurora, COPosts: 2,499Member

    They're greedy. We're suckers.

    It's really that simple I think. image

    "Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Blame? In a free market? For what?

    They made games. Some people like the games and have fun .. they become paying customers. You don't. You can vote with your dollars. That is basically it.

    If they don't want your dollar, and going after some other consumer groups, there is no one to "blame". It is a free market. They owe you nothing and you owe them nothing.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Zekiah

    They're greedy. We're suckers.

    It's really that simple I think. image

    Everyone is greedy. May be you are a sucker, but don't count me.

    I am having fun in my gaming.

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,195Member Uncommon

    Meh, it's both.

    But honestly I'm not really unhappy with gaming.  I think gaming is better now that it has ever been.  I have DRM free classics available from GoG.  I have more sub-free MMO options than I can actually play at the moment (GW2, TSW, STO, City of Steam, STO, EQ2, LotRO).  Decent hardware is probably more accessible in price than ever before.  I can play most of my old MMOs if I wanted to, but I like what's available now.

    So personaly, I think it more heavily lies with the forum gamers, but there is also a portion of the problems coming from the developers so I voted both.

  • SiderasSideras HelsingborgPosts: 231Member

    Definitely the developers, they have no fucking clue as to what people want and most of the time they themselves have no idea what they would like. And then we have gamers that are waaaay to accepting of this crap: "Don't listen to the haters, I loooove the game", "If you don't like the game go play something else". That sort of shit.

    But the biggest problem are the devs. I'm how fucking unambitious do you have to be if all you want to do is make another WoW clone. It obviously doesn't sell anymore. GW2 did well in many ways even if I didn't stick around, it tried and as far as I know it's still going strong. TESO is also getting more and more appealing, and that's coming from someone who was very negative to the announcement.

    But stuff like Rift, SWToR, TERA. They all feel dated, TERA might've mixed it up with the combat but that's about it. They make boring copy of WoW and then they add some minor features here and there that doesn't help at all.

  • AxehandleAxehandle Florida, FLPosts: 147Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Blame? In a free market? For what?

    They made games. Some people like the games and have fun .. they become paying customers. You don't. You can vote with your dollars. That is basically it.

    If they don't want your dollar, and going after some other consumer groups, there is no one to "blame". It is a free market. They owe you nothing and you owe them nothing.

    How do you "vote with your dollars" if the game is f2p but still a pile of garbage?

     

    This isn't about the money because I'm sure many think like me and would gladly pay a sub fee for a solid and long lasting game playing experience. This is about the industry. We have 2 sides the games and the gaming companies both trying to make the other seem like it's the other causing the problems. The players are bashing the products and the companies are saying don't listen to the supposed vocal minority. 

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Axehandle
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Blame? In a free market? For what?

    They made games. Some people like the games and have fun .. they become paying customers. You don't. You can vote with your dollars. That is basically it.

    If they don't want your dollar, and going after some other consumer groups, there is no one to "blame". It is a free market. They owe you nothing and you owe them nothing.

    How do you "vote with your dollars" if the game is f2p but still a pile of garbage?

     

    This isn't about the money because I'm sure many think like me and would gladly pay a sub fee for a solid and long lasting game playing experience. This is about the industry. We have 2 sides the games and the gaming companies both trying to make the other seem like it's the other causing the problems. The players are bashing the products and the companies are saying don't listen to the supposed vocal minority. 

    Vote with my feet. I am doing that already.

    To me, it is not about the industry. It is about having fun. I don't play games for any other reasons.

    Whether a company listen or not .. does not concern me. If they produce a good game (that i like), i wouldn't care less if it is because the producer is a genius, or they text-mine 10000 forums to learn about what people want.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    Meh, it's both.

    But honestly I'm not really unhappy with gaming.  I think gaming is better now that it has ever been.  I have DRM free classics available from GoG.  I have more sub-free MMO options than I can actually play at the moment (GW2, TSW, STO, City of Steam, STO, EQ2, LotRO).  Decent hardware is probably more accessible in price than ever before.  I can play most of my old MMOs if I wanted to, but I like what's available now.

    So personaly, I think it more heavily lies with the forum gamers, but there is also a portion of the problems coming from the developers so I voted both.

    My measure is really simple. Are there more games, that are fun to me, than i have time to play. If the answer is yes, then i don't see a problem. If not, obviously i need to find other entertainment, which is also in abundance.

    And 2012 is pretty good. D3 burnt (and still is burning) up a lot of my leisure time. PS2 is good. Dishonored is amazing. I have not even realy getting into COD BO2 campaign despite played for a few min. Borderlands 2 is great but unfinished. TSW is turning F2P. Marvel Heroes is coming.

    Heck, and i have Baldur Gates on my iPad seeing little action.

    So no ... i don't complain about 2012. It is a good year.

  • AxehandleAxehandle Florida, FLPosts: 147Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Axehandle
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Blame? In a free market? For what?

    They made games. Some people like the games and have fun .. they become paying customers. You don't. You can vote with your dollars. That is basically it.

    If they don't want your dollar, and going after some other consumer groups, there is no one to "blame". It is a free market. They owe you nothing and you owe them nothing.

    How do you "vote with your dollars" if the game is f2p but still a pile of garbage?

     

    This isn't about the money because I'm sure many think like me and would gladly pay a sub fee for a solid and long lasting game playing experience. This is about the industry. We have 2 sides the games and the gaming companies both trying to make the other seem like it's the other causing the problems. The players are bashing the products and the companies are saying don't listen to the supposed vocal minority. 

    Vote with my feet. I am doing that already.

    To me, it is not about the industry. It is about having fun. I don't play games for any other reasons.

    Whether a company listen or not .. does not concern me. If they produce a good game (that i like), i wouldn't care less if it is because the producer is a genius, or they text-mine 10000 forums to learn about what people want.

     

    Explain the "vote with my feet" bit because it doesn't make sense to me. You're not walking to the store to buy the game because its free. That might have made sense in your head when you typed it but it's very confusing.

  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Manchester, NHPosts: 2,926Member Uncommon
    It's them.  They get locked into dated designs and are unable to adapt by the time they release their games.  In almost every case, for theme parks, they release far too early and missing key features people expect now.  You can't use WOW vanilla as your guide.
  • VannorVannor YorkshirePosts: 2,969Member Uncommon
    What a silly poll. If we thought it was due to our high standards then we wouldn't be complaining in the first place. It's like simple fact.. insane people can't know they are insane otherwise they would be able to reason with themselves and they wouldn't be insane.. the same applies here. If it is because of our high standards we definately wouldn't be aware of it otherwise the problem wouldn't exist in the first place.
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member

    Who is "Us?"
    The sandboxers? The themeparkers? The hybriders? The crafters? The PvPers? The PvEers? The casuals? The hardcores? The inbetweeners? The FPSers? The RPGers? The RTSers? The questers? The grinders? The old timers? The newcomers? The real players? The console players? The vast worlders? The lobby based instancers?

    Who is "Us?"

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

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