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Taking legal action against The Secret World

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  • asmkm22asmkm22 Anchorage, AKPosts: 1,788Member
    Originally posted by Roxtarr
    Re-read the Terms and Conditions you agreed to and you may find you have no ground to stand on.

    To be fair, ToS and EULA's haven't really been tested in court.  Generally, whenever legal action is initiated or hinted at, the cmopanies quietly settle the matter or change the policy in question, rather than risk a jury trial setting a bad (from their prospective) precedent.

    The most likely outcome is that in the next few days to weeks, Funcom will indeed change some of the details, particularly in regards to what lifetime subscribers get.

    You make me like charity

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    I wonder what the ratio is to wins/losses for EULA's.  Anyone know?

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • KenzeKenze Posts: 1,214Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Kuppa
    Originally posted by Kenze   Originally posted by Kuppa Originally posted by Ortwig Originally posted by ph3n0m73 ahh so glad this was one that i didnt buy..knew it was more trouble than its worth....anyhow feel bad for you subbers to be let down like this.
    Not a let down at all -- it's an excellent deal for me (as a sub) and for lifetimers.  OP doesn't understand the change. http://forums.thesecretworld.com/showthread.php?t=62789
    How exactly is it a better deal than previously?     As I understand before they had to pay for NOTHING, now they will have to potentially pay for DLC.
    nope FC is giving the the points(free) to pay for any DLC coming if they want too or they could just spend the points on other cash shop stuff. They are losing nothing, but their minds, it seems  
    Yes, but remember that you used to get points to spend on the cs before and had no dlc to buy. Now you have to buy the dlc so the content is not part of the deal.

    they increased the amount of FC points you get per month though, wether you decide to buy the dlc or a new outfit is up to you.. it seems like your mad because you now can and have to make a choice?

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  • FromHellFromHell NY, NYPosts: 1,311Member
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by FromHell
    Originally posted by Teala
    See, it is for this very reason that lifetime subs are worthless.

    They MADE it worthless by giving away almost everything for free which I paid 200$ for.

     

    Today I´m fed up with MMOs, look around, all cash grabs, no exceptions.

    And the last bastion beside EvE, TSW catered to the cheapskates. Thanks for nothing. Now the 30$ lolkids will try to do investigation quests and fill up the chat with ""lollzthisgamesucks""whatis goin on lolzzz"

     

    sad day

    Please go read the FAQ.  It's the best B2P model I've seen.

    it's great, only for everyone who didn't buy the 200$ lifetime sub on release.

    I already HAD my B2P with that!

     

    now I get loads of points but I don't buy clothing to play dolly!!!

     

    you tell me how to spend those points, others get to play the whole game for ridiculous 30$ now. THANKS FC!!!

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  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,863Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by banzai014

    The right thing to do is refund our remaining time and if we want to sub for your "better deal" we will.

    That isn't the "right" thing, that is the thing you would like them to do.

    2 different things.


    They offered you compensation, you do not like it. Well, you gotta deal with it, they are not obliged to compensate you to your liking.

  • OrtwigOrtwig Cambridge, MAPosts: 1,159Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kuppa
    Originally posted by Kenze

     


    Originally posted by Kuppa

    Originally posted by Ortwig

    Originally posted by ph3n0m73 ahh so glad this was one that i didnt buy..knew it was more trouble than its worth....anyhow feel bad for you subbers to be let down like this.
    Not a let down at all -- it's an excellent deal for me (as a sub) and for lifetimers.  OP doesn't understand the change. http://forums.thesecretworld.com/showthread.php?t=62789
    How exactly is it a better deal than previously?

     

    As I understand before they had to pay for NOTHING, now they will have to potentially pay for DLC.


    nope FC is giving the the points(free) to pay for any DLC coming if they want too or they could just spend the points on other cash shop stuff. They are losing nothing, but their minds, it seems

    Yes, but remember that you used to get points to spend on the cs before and had no dlc to buy. Now you have to buy the dlc so the content is not part of the deal.

    Stop confusing the matter.

    1. Subs and lifers get free points every month (they add up)
    2. When a DLC comes along subs and lifers can use the points to buy it, and probably have plenty left over.  $5 is the quoted price of the DLC, but whatever.
    Simple.
  • huskie77huskie77 Nowhere, NEPosts: 354Member
    TOS is a written contract that the user consents to abide by upon installing the software. The only time the TOS is nullified is when it's terms are in direct conflict with the law or in some way violates basic human rights. This is true of the courts in Western Europe as well as North America.

    image
  • KuppaKuppa Boulder, COPosts: 3,292Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kenze

     


    Originally posted by Kuppa

    Originally posted by Kenze  

    Originally posted by Kuppa

    Originally posted by Ortwig

    Originally posted by ph3n0m73 ahh so glad this was one that i didnt buy..knew it was more trouble than its worth....anyhow feel bad for you subbers to be let down like this.
    Not a let down at all -- it's an excellent deal for me (as a sub) and for lifetimers.  OP doesn't understand the change. http://forums.thesecretworld.com/showthread.php?t=62789
    How exactly is it a better deal than previously?     As I understand before they had to pay for NOTHING, now they will have to potentially pay for DLC.
    nope FC is giving the the points(free) to pay for any DLC coming if they want too or they could just spend the points on other cash shop stuff. They are losing nothing, but their minds, it seems  
    Yes, but remember that you used to get points to spend on the cs before and had no dlc to buy. Now you have to buy the dlc so the content is not part of the deal.

     

    they increased the amount of FC points you get per month though, wether you decide to buy the dlc or a new outfit is up to you.. it seems like your mad because you now can and have to make a choice?

    No, it's the point that before I would get less but I would get ALL the content. Now you have to decide between shop or content.

    image


    image

  • asmkm22asmkm22 Anchorage, AKPosts: 1,788Member
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    Actually there are several examples of the EULA being upheld by courts.

    Simply stating EULA's are not binging is not accurate, as some have been.

    It's all in what they say.

    Here's just one example from a 1 second search.

    http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2010/09/the-end-of-used-major-ruling-upholds-tough-software-licenses/

    (no it's not MMO bu the issue was about EULA)

    The problem is that there has been no court has ruled on EULA's or TOS's as a whole.  Instead, they just focus on a few parts of the particular license as it applies to that particular product.  They've been very deliberate in not ruling on anything more broadly.

    You make me like charity

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,453Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by banzai014

    As some of you may be aware "etc"

    Really? This is the battle you are choosing to fight? it's so inconsequential. You really want to take them to court over small bits of money?

    And are you suing them for your refund? Why don't you just demand a refund (in a professional way and not a ranting way) and see if you get it.

  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Manchester, NHPosts: 2,927Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by Roxtarr
    Re-read the Terms and Conditions you agreed to and you may find you have no ground to stand on.

    they get thrown out in every court every time, TOS or EULA means nothing in almost all cases

    So then I'm sure you can provide examples of developers being sued and losing after switching from subscription only to B2P/F2P with a shop or sub option.  Pardon me if I don't wait too long for you to find non existent examples.

  • KuppaKuppa Boulder, COPosts: 3,292Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by Kuppa
    Originally posted by Kenze

     


    Originally posted by Kuppa

    Originally posted by Ortwig

    Originally posted by ph3n0m73 ahh so glad this was one that i didnt buy..knew it was more trouble than its worth....anyhow feel bad for you subbers to be let down like this.
    Not a let down at all -- it's an excellent deal for me (as a sub) and for lifetimers.  OP doesn't understand the change. http://forums.thesecretworld.com/showthread.php?t=62789
    How exactly is it a better deal than previously?

     

    As I understand before they had to pay for NOTHING, now they will have to potentially pay for DLC.


    nope FC is giving the the points(free) to pay for any DLC coming if they want too or they could just spend the points on other cash shop stuff. They are losing nothing, but their minds, it seems

    Yes, but remember that you used to get points to spend on the cs before and had no dlc to buy. Now you have to buy the dlc so the content is not part of the deal.

    Stop confusing the matter.

    1. Subs and lifers get free points every month (they add up)
    2. When a DLC comes along subs and lifers can use the points to buy it, and probably have plenty left over.  $5 is the quoted price of the DLC, but whatever.
    Simple.

    The thing here is that you have to compare it to what it was before. Before a lifer would get ALL the content and some points to spend on the shop. Now you get more points but you also have to buy these DLC packs(content), so you DON'T get all the content. You have to decide between content or shop.

     

    Were did you get that $5 quote? it's not in that link.

    image


    image

  • asmkm22asmkm22 Anchorage, AKPosts: 1,788Member
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    I wonder what the ratio is to wins/losses for EULA's.  Anyone know?

    Off the top of my head, no.  But EULA's in general have never been upheld that I'm aware of.  The courts have always chosen to rule on only specific parts of specific EULA's for specific companies.  As for win/loos ratios, They are probably mostly all won in court, because companies are pretty good at knowing when to fight something and when to just settle or change the agreement quietly to make people happy.  As a result, those that do get to court tend to have strong defenses.

    You make me like charity

  • RaysheRayshe London, ONPosts: 1,284Member

    New Content for the Future

    Periodically we will release packs of DLC (Downloadable Content). These updates, called Issues in The Secret World, contain new content, such as more Auxiliary Weapons, new missions and story arcs. These packs are fully optional and can be purchased normally or for the Bonus Points that are included in the optional Membership, as well as with the Grandmaster Lifetime service.

    The first DLC will start selling in January 2013, and is the main storyline of issue #5. This will sell for $5, however this content is already fully unlocked for anyone who has a full game account registered before the end of December 2012.

    Regular patches with free content and updates and enhancements to the core game will still continue.

     

     

    Taken right from Darkdaysarecoming.com       or    TheSecretWorld.com

    Because i can.
    I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
    Logic every gamers worst enemy.

  • huskie77huskie77 Nowhere, NEPosts: 354Member
    Originally posted by asmkm22
    Originally posted by Roxtarr
    Re-read the Terms and Conditions you agreed to and you may find you have no ground to stand on.

    To be fair, ToS and EULA's haven't really been tested in court.  Generally, whenever legal action is initiated or hinted at, the cmopanies quietly settle the matter or change the policy in question, rather than risk a jury trial setting a bad (from their prospective) precedent.

    The most likely outcome is that in the next few days to weeks, Funcom will indeed change some of the details, particularly in regards to what lifetime subscribers get.

    Usually the TOS and EULA both require mediation instead of trial. This is why it is "quietly" settled in addition to the fact that these agreements are basically steel traps that cover almost any eventuality. Lawyers live to create such documents.

    image
  • OrtwigOrtwig Cambridge, MAPosts: 1,159Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by FromHell
    Originally posted by Ortwig
    Originally posted by FromHell
    Originally posted by Teala
    See, it is for this very reason that lifetime subs are worthless.

    They MADE it worthless by giving away almost everything for free which I paid 200$ for.

     

    Today I´m fed up with MMOs, look around, all cash grabs, no exceptions.

    And the last bastion beside EvE, TSW catered to the cheapskates. Thanks for nothing. Now the 30$ lolkids will try to do investigation quests and fill up the chat with ""lollzthisgamesucks""whatis goin on lolzzz"

     

    sad day

    Please go read the FAQ.  It's the best B2P model I've seen.

    it's great, only for everyone who didn't buy the 200$ lifetime sub on release.

    I already HAD my B2P with that!

    now I get loads of points but I don't buy clothing to play dolly!!!

    you tell me how to spend those points, others get to play the whole game for ridiculous 30$ now. THANKS FC!!!

    You're still covered and basically get content updates for free like you had before PLUS some added stuff -- item of the month and stuff in the shop,   You're in a BETTER position after the change.

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans BergenPosts: 2,273Member
    Originally posted by FrodoFragins
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by Roxtarr
    Re-read the Terms and Conditions you agreed to and you may find you have no ground to stand on.

    they get thrown out in every court every time, TOS or EULA means nothing in almost all cases

    So then I'm sure you can provide examples of developers being sued and losing after switching from subscription only to B2P/F2P with a shop or sub option.  Pardon me if I don't wait too long for you to find non existent examples.

    do you know how "burden of proof" works?

    for you to claim it can't happen means you need to prove it to me, it goes both ways

     

    There have been many cases where the EULA got thrown out because the EULA had not been read before purchase.

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    If the TOS said that your life belongs to Blizzard in Blizzard's TOS, you would call that legally binding? Do you understand the difference between TOS and written law?
    Yes. Are you implying your signature is not worth the paper it is written on?

    The only exception *I* would countenance is not seeing the TOS & EULA before signing. Remember, one always has the option to NOT agree to the terms. Few ever do, though, so they go crying to the courts because of their own lack of responsibility.

    "Help me!" "Save me from my stupidity!"

    I happen to believe in the law of natural selection :)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • UNH0LYEV1LUNH0LYEV1L Summerville, SCPosts: 412Member Uncommon
    Its going to be pretty hard convincing a court that your getting screwed when your actually getting more value and more perks from this.  Instead of freaking the f out you should read what Life timers are getting.


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  • OrtwigOrtwig Cambridge, MAPosts: 1,159Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kuppa
     

     Were did you get that $5 quote? it's not in that link.

    See Rayshe's quote above.

  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Manchester, NHPosts: 2,927Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by FrodoFragins
    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    Originally posted by Roxtarr
    Re-read the Terms and Conditions you agreed to and you may find you have no ground to stand on.

    they get thrown out in every court every time, TOS or EULA means nothing in almost all cases

    So then I'm sure you can provide examples of developers being sued and losing after switching from subscription only to B2P/F2P with a shop or sub option.  Pardon me if I don't wait too long for you to find non existent examples.

    do you know how "burden of proof" works?

    for you to claim it can't happen means you need to prove it to me, it goes both ways

    I can give you plenty of examples where companies switched payment models and had no legal problems.  You have zero MMO examples to go with your statement:

     

    they get thrown out in every court every time, TOS or EULA means nothing in almost all cases

  • korent1991korent1991 CakovecPosts: 1,390Member

    You can do nothing... If you read the terms of agreement (every mmorpgs TOA has this) you'd know that you just agreed to basically anything they throw at you and you can't make any legal actions about their game changes. The game is their ownership and so is the account on which you are playing. You just bought the right to play on that account for as long as you decide to keep it active and make no violations of their rules.

    "Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
    -------------------------------

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  • CalmOceansCalmOceans BergenPosts: 2,273Member
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by CalmOceans
    If the TOS said that your life belongs to Blizzard in Blizzard's TOS, you would call that legally binding? Do you understand the difference between TOS and written law?

    Yes. Are you implying your signature is not worth the paper it is written on?

     

    The only exception *I* would countenance is not seeing the TOS & EULA before signing. Remember, one always has the option to NOT agree to the terms. Few ever do, though, so they go crying to the courts because of their own lack of responsibility.

    "Help me!" "Save me from my stupidity!"

    I happen to believe in the law of natural selection :)

    A signature, is again, ONLY legally binding, if the paper that is being signed is within the confines of the law.

    If I let you sign a contract that I can kill you, it is no longer legally binding, because the contract is not within the confines of the law.

    If there is breach of contract when the TOS or EULA changes, it is not longer viable and will be ingored in court, if the EULA itself is not within the law, it will be ignored, if the EULA was presented after purchase, it will often be ignored, etc.

  • asmkm22asmkm22 Anchorage, AKPosts: 1,788Member
    Originally posted by huskie77
    Originally posted by asmkm22
    Originally posted by Roxtarr
    Re-read the Terms and Conditions you agreed to and you may find you have no ground to stand on.

    To be fair, ToS and EULA's haven't really been tested in court.  Generally, whenever legal action is initiated or hinted at, the cmopanies quietly settle the matter or change the policy in question, rather than risk a jury trial setting a bad (from their prospective) precedent.

    The most likely outcome is that in the next few days to weeks, Funcom will indeed change some of the details, particularly in regards to what lifetime subscribers get.

    Usually the TOS and EULA both require mediation instead of trial. This is why it is "quietly" settled in addition to the fact that these agreements are basically steel traps that cover almost any eventuality. Lawyers live to create such documents.

    Mediation doesn't mean a party can't initiate a lawsuite or some other kind of class action, especially when the normal grounds for such a suite is to dispute the contract itself.

    You make me like charity

  • OrtwigOrtwig Cambridge, MAPosts: 1,159Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kuppa
     

    The thing here is that you have to compare it to what it was before. Before a lifer would get ALL the content and some points to spend on the shop. Now you get more points but you also have to buy these DLC packs(content), so you DON'T get all the content. You have to decide between content or shop.

     

    Were did you get that $5 quote? it's not in that link.

    Yesterday, they got  free updates but had to pay money in the cash shop.

    Today they get points for free updates and with the leftover, can buy cash shop items.  Plus discounts in the shop and the item-of-the-month.

    Looks like today's deal is better than yesterday's.

This discussion has been closed.